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Prakk
12-06-04, 08:01 PM
Since I am encouraged by another member to start this thread, I will. Let me say up front that my confidence level in this view that I am about to express is approaching certainty.

Miracles, performed by the gift of God to a believer, or tongues or the writing of inspired work (scripture) and prophetic utterance are all linked. The common factor is the Ruling Presence of God on this earth.

What then is a "Ruling Presence?" It would be God's DIRECT rule or rule through an appointed person. The time of Moses arguably qualifes as both cases and God's direct rule of Isreal continues through the time of the Kings of Isreal and Judah. When the Ruling Presence departs, such as there is no anointed man to sit on the throne, or when God is not directly ruling, such as he did in the time of the Judges; there are no gifts, and scripture is not written. Healing may occur, but not as the result of a gift of healing that anyone posesses from God. An example, I have been healed of migraines, but it was the direct result of prayer to God and no human being can say they came and healed me.

There is an extension of this ruling presence. The lives of those who perform miracles by God's agency, write scripture, or make prophetic utterances touch the Ruling Presence. Mordecai for instance, who is at least the teller of part of the story of Esther, which is scripture, is an Exile. Ezra and Nehemiah function under the Governorship of Zerubbabel, who is of the kingly line of David. John the Baptist is a contemporary of Christ as are his disciples. The Gifts ebb and flow through history, but always under the influence of the gravity generated by the Ruling Presence.

Some implications. There are no Gifts now, tongues are not present, "Healers" do not heal, prophecy is only in the form of teaching. If these things were to resume, we should look for Christ again, or look to Isreal to see that a Son of David is on the throne. Personally I think this would have to be Jesus.

There is no Apostolic office. The evidence is purely that people such as the Pope do not perform miracles, and ought to be able to, if the claim to be the "vicar of Christ" were real. The modern day "Saints" that are supposedly proved by "miracles" are in fact bogus. Books like Sirach or the Maccabees are not scripture, the writers lives and the events do not intersect with the Ruling Presence.

I await your input. As I said, I have not reached the point that I have accepted this as doctrine, but you can count on me debating it, as if I had, until one of you proves me wrong, or we can accept this view as credible.

Hugh McBryde

thepaulinator
12-06-04, 10:38 PM
I believe I have been the resident "Devil's Advocate" here (and I would appreciate zero plays on those words :D ), so I am interested in your views of some scripture...

You seem to link to Ruling Presence of God with miracles/prophecy/etc. directly and utterly. If no healers/prophets/miracle workers are present, neither is the ruling presence of God, and conversly, where there are healers/prophets/and miracle workers, there too is the ruling presence of God. If I am incorrect on this, I ask you to save some time and stop reading =).

I would ask how this is different than the fallacy of "Affirming the Consequent"

If p then q
q
therefore p

or

If p then q
not-q
therefore not p

Also, how do you feel about these scriptures...

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
-Matthew 7:21-23

"1If I speak in the tongues[1] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing."
-1 Cor 13:1-2

These seem to indicate that it is more than the presence of the gifts and performance of such that show the ruling presence of God. But then again, I am Roman Catholic, and probably have no idea what I am talking about =).

Prakk
12-07-04, 03:39 PM
"You seem to link to Ruling Presence of God with miracles/prophecy/etc. directly and utterly."Yes.
"If no healers/prophets/miracle workers are present, neither is the ruling presence of God."No. The Ruling Presence can be in the world, and there could be Gifts, or there might not be. Without the presence, no Gifts. With it, maybe.
"Where there are healers/prophets/and miracle workers, there too is the ruling presence of God."There would have to be, or those Healers/Prophets/and Miracle Workers would be false.

Hugh McBryde

thepaulinator
12-08-04, 02:34 PM
The Ruling Presence can be in the world, and there could be Gifts, or there might not be. Without the presence, no Gifts. With it, maybe.

Agreed.


There would have to be, or those Healers/Prophets/and Miracle Workers would be false.

So I guess you say, if there are TRUE healers and TRUE prophets, then it must be a result of the ruling presence of God. Conversely, where there are no healers or prohets and such, the ruling presence of God may or may not be there. Is this correct?

Which comes down to what? That today, since you say there are no gifts of healing and such, that the ruling presence of God may or may not be on earth? Does this just mean that when we start to see these gifts, it menas Christ is soon to come again? If so, and I mean this in the most non-condescending way...is that really new information?

Prakk
12-08-04, 04:00 PM
" Which comes down to what? That today, since you say there are no gifts of healing and such, that the ruling presence of God may or may not be on earth? Does this just mean that when we start to see these gifts, it menas Christ is soon to come again? If so, and I mean this in the most non-condescending way...is that really new information?"Hmmm, how to put this. Christ is King. He's the LAST King in the Line of David. He's gone right now. No Gifts. There can be a period where there is a King and gifts are in short supply, but it's just a matter of frequency. The Frequency right now is ZERO. The fact that all demonstrable Gifts have ceased now for about 2000 years is because there is no Ruling Presence.

I think PUTTING it exactly this way is new information to most of us. The idea that the gifts have ceased isn't new, but I find the explanations awkward and dogmatic. This I think is the underlying principle. Yes I agree that when real Gifts are in fact present, we'd better be looking around for him.

Hugh McBryde

thepaulinator
12-09-04, 03:24 PM
Christ is King.

Amen


He's gone right now. No Gifts

Physically, yes, he does not walk the earth anymore...but does that really mean he is gone? Is Christ gone in every sense of the word? What of the Holy Spirit? Is the Holy Spirit not present in the world today? Is the Holy Spirit not the bearer of these gifts?


The fact that all demonstrable Gifts have ceased now for about 2000 years is because there is no Ruling Presence.

Based on what? You yourself have already said...

"The Ruling Presence can be in the world, and there could be Gifts, or there might not be. Without the presence, no Gifts. With it, maybe."

Maybe, before I continue, I should ask what exactly you mean by "Ruling Presence of God"?