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lovechrist
11-11-01, 04:31 AM
Does anyone know if Jesus descended to hell before he ascended to heaven?God bless

Andrew
11-11-01, 08:55 AM
Dear Loveschrist,

My and my church's belief is that he did:

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The spirits in prison were kept in a special place in hell (hell has several places). Our church belief is that these spirits were the fallen angels that mated with humans during Noah's time. And Jesus went there to proclaim his victory to them (ie that they failed to corrupt the human seed). Here are the refs and u can read and judge for yourself (Gen 6:4, Numbers 13:33, June 1:6, 1 Pet 3:19, 2 Pet 2:4)

I believe Jesus also went down after his death to Abraham's bosom, to bring those who died righteous b4 the cross up to heaven. That's why he told the thief that today he wld be with him in Paradise ie Abraham's bosom, which i believe is actually a place in hell (soory i dont have the refs now). ie Hell is not just one big lake of fire for demons and lost souls. there are diff "compartments". Of course, Abraham's bosom is now empty becos you have heaven after the cross.

Various Christians will have differing views on the details. But the fact is that Jesus did go down to hell to do some things b4 he ascended to heaven.

God bless
God bless

robert higgins
11-11-01, 11:26 AM
That Jesus went to the spirits in prison I believe that has reference to the Holy Spirit through the writers of the older testament delivered the message of grace to them. There is no reasonable purpose for Christ to desend to hell to reveal Himself to lost people. That He led captivity captive is bringing all the saints to heaven after His death and by His resurection.

Christ__Alone
11-11-01, 11:52 AM
I don't believe the Bible teaches that He went down into hell when He died on the cross.

He told the man next to Him, that THIS day he would be with Him in paradise.

He never mentioned a brief stop-over in hell, first.

The verses that tell us He went and preached to the spirits in prison, are constantly misquoted, and the REST of that passage is almost always OMITTED.

In fuller context, here it is:

1Peter 3:

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

If you read this very carefully, you'll see that the first 2 words in verse 19 are ignored by most, and that all of verse 20 is generally never mentioned.

This is telling us that BY the same power Jesus was raised from the dead (the Holy Spirit), it was the same source (the Holy Spirit) that gave the message to repent, in the days of Noah.

This passage does not say Jesus went to hell and preached to anyone.

And if you think about it for a minute, it doesn't even gel with the rest of Scripture. Since men are appointed once to die, and after that the judgement, WHY was He preaching to them?

Was He in hell taunting the condemned, saying "I told you so"??? Nonsense, of course He wasn't.

Was He in hell setting the captives free, as some believe? (Jewish tradition was that paradise was a seperated section of hades, where the faithful waited on one side, and the damned were condemned to the other side).

Well the verse doesn't SAY that He was, in fact it's not even speaking to the faithful dead at all, it's all about "by what power" He was raised from the dead, and "by what power" the repentance message was preached in the days of Noah.

So if anyone has any OTHER verses to share, that literally say, or can be translated to say, that Jesus died and went to hell, please do share them, so we can examine them together.

lovechrist
11-11-01, 12:27 PM
There was a time after christs death on the cross where he was gone for three days before he rose,I think may be those are the days he was in hell,preaching...he walked with the desciples for 40 days after he came back but where was he for the three days after he died,God bless....I was taught growing up he did descend to hell first....

robert higgins
11-11-01, 02:35 PM
It is clear by the statement by Christ to the thief that "today you will be with me in paradice. the O. T. saints understood that abrahams bosom was that paradice. Shoel was divided into two places. Christ went to paradice ad revealed Himself to the saints in abrahams bosom to reveal the promise of the father had come. He then led ten into heaven withHim. That Christ would go the part of Shoel which contained the lost souls would serve no purpose. Their eternal state is fixed. The scripture does not reveal that he spent all three days there. However it does reveal that He went . The passage refered to in 1 peter, I believe is talking about Christ through the Spirit revealing the redemptive grace through faith to the O.T. saints by the writer. of the older testament. Their disobedence is illistrated by their lives, David for instance, not a disobedence of faith in God. They like us sho trust in Christ will persevere by the faith of Christ and not by anything in us.

VwV
11-11-01, 08:29 PM
The question is, who were/are the Spirits that God went and preached to.

Andrew
11-11-01, 09:08 PM
VwV,

See if you see a link -- (Gen 6:4, Numbers 13:33, June 1:6, 1 Pet 3:19, 2 Pet 2:4). Keep in mind Noah's days usu mentioned.

God bless.

lovechrist
11-12-01, 04:51 AM
Jesus descending to preach to the saints,can you tell me if the saints we're actually in hell,or in a holding place in hell of somekind,My pastor didn't believe he descended until I pushed it a little and gave him something to look for,now he's changed his mind a little,was there some kind of key Jesus was after down there?I have heard somethings about a key.

Andrew
11-12-01, 09:44 AM
Dear VwV,

If you are refering to the "spirits in prison" [1 Pet 3:19] I do not believe these are "saints" (why wld righteous saints be chained/locked up?), but the fallen angels of Noah's time that crossed the line.

But from what i understand, Christ did go down to Paradise (aka Abraham's bosom) to bring the righteous dead (eg righteous people like Abraham & the thief who died b4 the cross) up to heaven.

Pls also see my reply in the thread you posted about the Nephalim/sexy devils for more on the "spirits in prison".

God bless

Christ__Alone
11-12-01, 10:09 AM
Since folks here are offering their own insight into it, I thought I'd add what John Gill had to say about it (this is long, but WELL worth the time to read, and consider):

Various are the senses given of this passage: some say, that Christ, upon his death, went in his human soul to hell; either, as some, to preach to the devils and damned spirits, that they might be saved, if they would; and, as others, to let them know that he was come, and to fill them with dread and terror; but though hell may be meant by the prison, yet the text does not say that he went unto it, or preached in it; only that the spirits were in it, to whom he sometimes went, and preached; nor is his human soul, but his divine nature meant, by the Spirit, by which he went and preached to them: and as for the ends proposed, the former is impracticable and impossible; for after death follows judgment, which is an eternal one; nor is there any salvation, or hope of salvation afterwards; and the latter is absurd, vain, and needless.

Others, as the Papists, imagine the sense to be, that Christ, at his death, went in his human soul, into a place they call "Limbus Patrum", which they suppose is meant by the prison here, and delivered the souls of the Old Testament saints and patriarchs from thence, and carried them with him to heaven; but this sense is also false, because, as before observed, not the human soul of Christ, but his divine nature, is designed by the Spirit; nor is there any such place as here feigned, in which the souls of Old Testament saints were, before the death of Christ; for they were in peace and rest, in the kingdom of heaven, in Abraham's bosom, inheriting the promises, and not in a prison;

besides, the text says not one word of the delivering of these spirits out of prison, only of Christ's preaching to them: add to all this, and which Beza, with others, observes, the apostle speaks of such as had been disobedient, and unbelievers; a character which will not agree with righteous men, and prophets, and patriarchs, under the former dispensation:

others think the words are to be understood of Christ's going to preach, by his apostles, to the Gentiles, as in #Eph 2:17 who were in a most miserable condition, strangers to the covenants of promise, and destitute of the hope of salvation, and sat in darkness, and the shadow of death, and, as it were, at the gates of hell; were in the bonds of iniquity, and dead in sin, and had been for long time past foolish and disobedient, serving divers lusts and pleasures, to which they were in bondage.

This is, indeed, a more tolerable sense than the former; but it will be difficult to show, that men, in the present state of life, are called "spirits", which seems to be a word that relates to the souls of men, in a separate state from their bodies; and especially that carnal and unconverted men are ever so called; and besides, the apostle is speaking of such who were disobedient in the times of Noah; and therefore not of the Gentiles, in the times of the apostles:

add to which, that the transition from the times of the apostles, according to this sense, to the days of Noah, is very unaccountable; this sense does not agree with the connection of the words:

others are of opinion, that this is meant of the souls of the Old Testament saints, who were en fulakh, "in a watch", as they think the phrase may be rendered, instead of "in prison": and said to be in such a situation, because they were intent upon the hope of promised salvation, and were looking out for the Messiah, and anxiously desiring his coming, and which he, by some gracious manifestation, made known unto them: but though the word may sometimes signify a watch, yet more commonly a prison, and which sense best suits here; nor is that anxiety and uneasiness, which represents them as in a prison, so applicable to souls in a state of happiness; nor such a gracious manifestation so properly called preaching;

and besides, not believers, but unbelievers, disobedient ones, are here spoken of; and though it is only said they were sometimes so, yet to what purpose should this former character be once mentioned of souls now in glory?

but it would be tedious to reckon up the several different senses of this place; some referring it to such in Noah's time, to whom the Gospel was preached, and who repented; and though they suffered in their bodies, in the general deluge, yet their souls were saved; whereas the apostle calls them all, "the world of the ungodly", #2Pe 2:5 and others, to the eight souls that were shut up in the ark, as in a prison, and were saved; though these are manifestly distinguished in the text from the disobedient spirits.

The plain and easy sense of the words is, that Christ, by his Spirit, by which he was quickened, went in the ministry of Noah, the preacher of righteousness, and preached both by words and deeds, by the personal ministry of Noah, and by the building of the ark, to that generation who was then in being; and who being disobedient, and continuing so, a flood was brought upon them which destroyed them all; and whose spirits, or separate souls, were then in the prison of hell, so the Syriac version renders it, "in hell", see #Re 20:7 when the Apostle Peter wrote this epistle;

so that Christ neither went into this prison, nor preached in it, nor to spirits that were then in it when he preached, but to persons alive in the days of Noah, and who being disobedient, when they died, their separate souls were put into prison, and there they were when the apostle wrote: from whence we learn, that Christ was, that he existed in his divine nature before he was incarnate, he was before Abraham, he was in the days of Noah; and that Christ also, under the Old Testament, acted the part of a Mediator, in his divine nature, and by his Spirit discharged that branch of it, his prophetic office, before he appeared in human nature;

and that the Gospel was preached in those early times, as unto Abraham, so before him.

robert higgins
11-12-01, 04:18 PM
To say that it is the spirits preached to in the case addressed is lacking in the tense of the statement. Peter is declaring that people in Noah's day were preached to and the spirits of those men are now in prison.
A right understanding of the text "preached to the spirits in prison" should be read as " preached to the spirits now in prison".

lovechrist
11-13-01, 04:31 AM
Can you tell me if the prison they we're in,is that Hell..and why they we're there if they we're the saints....was there some kind of key involved that Jesus was after or did he go to acturally preach to the saints..and what kind of places they say are in hell,prison is that a holding place.