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universe
11-12-01, 10:06 PM
"It seems incredible to them that there should exist such an intellectual curiosity as a real Calvinist, in an age of enlightenment like the present. As for seriously examining the arguments for Calvinism, the idea never enters their heads. It is deemed as out of date as the Inquisition, or the idea of a fiat world, and is looked upon as one of the fantastic schemes of thought that men held before the age of modern science."
-L. Boetner.

This is how I have thought about people who take reformation beliefs seriously, though I had not educated myself about Calvanism. Anyone else just learning about some of this too? I am reading the article on Predestination by L. Boetner in the library. Would anyone like to read through it with me a chapter at a time, maybe one per week, and then discuss it?

Brandan
11-12-01, 10:10 PM
The book universe is referring to is the book I have placed on 5solas.org entitled, "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" by Lorraine Boetner. You can find it here: http://www.5solas.org/media.php?id=37

It is an excellent book, and I HIGHLY recommend it to anyone who wants a better understanding of predestination and how it fits within the Christian faith.

- Brandan

Christ__Alone
11-12-01, 10:31 PM
And I second the recommendation, HIGHLY.

Odyssey
11-13-01, 10:20 AM
I third it! A great book. I have it in my collection. I also have 'Calvins Calvinism,' and 'The Bondage of the Will' by Martin Luther.

The book that got me lookning into this whole doctrince was 'Putting Amazing Back Into Grace' by Michael Horton. A great book for beginners.

Grace to you,

jak

universe
11-13-01, 08:03 PM
It sounds like I am the only one here who has not read it. Is there anyone out there that would like to go through it with me? Well, I'm through the first chapter and will begin posting what I am learning/thinking, so even if you have read it, I would enjoy the feedback and your comments.

Brandan
11-13-01, 09:12 PM
I've read it about a hundred times it seems :D But I'll be happy to converse with you.

Odyssey
11-14-01, 08:48 AM
So will I.

Grace to you,

jak

universe
11-17-01, 07:12 PM
I am going to have to put off discussing this book for several days as we had 2 huge storms, one after the other, on Thursday and it flooded our property out. The rescue workers had to come and carry out my three children and help me get up to the road. We had around 18-20 inches of water in every direction. It was like living in a lake! Anyway, give me a few days to try to clean up the mess and I will get back to this.

universe
11-21-01, 09:17 AM
"Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet hath He not decreed any thing because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions."

This is from the beginning of Ch. 2.

So it isn't that God deliberately created someone to not follow him, it's just that he already knew that future and the choices that the person was going to make. Right?

Brandan
11-21-01, 09:33 AM
"Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet hath He not decreed any thing because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions."

This passage from the Westminster Confession is saying that even though God knows everything which will come to pass, His decrees are not based upon what He foresaw or foresees in the future.

Lousy Chef
11-24-01, 11:29 PM
Please dont quote the Westminster Confession. It's only mans interp of scripture. In a word, isnt it tradition? Yes, it's not scripture. Remember your own rules please. Thanks.

Please note, I'm not arguing with the administrator, simply pointing out where he's wrong!

Christ__Alone
11-25-01, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by Lousy Chef
Please dont quote the Westminster Confession. It's only mans interp of scripture. In a word, isnt it tradition? Yes, it's not scripture. Remember your own rules please. Thanks.

Please note, I'm not arguing with the administrator, simply pointing out where he's wrong!

If you had read this thread from the beginning, you would know that the quote Kermie offered was quite in line with the topic at hand.

If you would like to contribute to this thread, do so in context OF the topic being discussed.

Brandan
11-25-01, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by Lousy Chef
Please dont quote the Westminster Confession. It's only mans interp of scripture. In a word, isnt it tradition? Yes, it's not scripture. Remember your own rules please. Thanks.

Please note, I'm not arguing with the administrator, simply pointing out where he's wrong!

Lousy Chef, you are being critical out of ignorance. You didn't even read the thread. I was simply trying to clarify what a portion of a book read. I don't even subscribe to the Westminster Confession 100%!

I'm sorry, but that was a fairly ignorant comment in my opinion. One more like that, and you will be banned.

Brandan

universe
01-25-02, 10:12 PM
["Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself, what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some and eternal death for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say he is predestinated either to life or to death." Chapter 2}

It seems that here they are saying that we were specifically created to either choose god and go to eternal life with him or not choose him and go to eternal death without him. But the last quote we discussed seemed to say that he created us with a specific purpose, without consideration of what he knew we would decide, but that the decision was still ours.

What am I missing here? Was the decision ever really ours?

universe

Brandan
01-26-02, 04:37 PM
The decision lies in the hands of the Sovereign God. Som men were created for wrath, and others were created for mercy (rom 9:23).

EndureToLive
03-21-02, 08:06 PM
Universe, you are not missing anything. God did not arbitrarily elect some for life and the rest for death. In His foreknowledge God knew them that would love Him. These He elected for life. The others were "elected" (for lack of a better term) for death as in His foreknowledge God knew that they would not love Him. God did not create Pharoah for destruction, but by foreknowledge knew that Pharoah would not turn to Him. God did not create Esau out of hate, but knew that Esau would not turn to Him. Both men were used of God for His purposes, but destroyed because of their own rejection of Him.

Romans 8:28ff
"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined...."

Q. - Who are those that love God?
A. - Those that do His will/keep His commands (Jn 14:15)

Yes, it does say they were called according to His pupose, but as the passage progresses we see that the calling comes after, and is based on, the foreknowledge.

1 Peter 1:1ff
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the pilgrims of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Capadocia, Asia, and Bythinia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..."

We know from 1 Timothy 2:4 that God's desire is for all men to be saved. The idea that God creates people for destruction on His own whim is contrary to this desire. And the use of Romans 9 to support such a contradiction further underscores ones misunderstanding of the doctrine of election.


Truth never fears a challenge!
Gareth:cool:

Brandan
03-21-02, 09:42 PM
Ahhh, the foreknowledge card. For a good article written by Christ_Alone that battles this false teaching, you can read it here: What is Predestination? (http://www.5solas.org/media.php?id=175)

EndureToLive
03-22-02, 09:21 AM
Thank you Kermie, but because the article fits in with your theology does not make it fit into the Bible. Interestingly, you would teach security of the elect, while you can not truly know that security, as you will not know if you are really elect until the end. It will indeed be hard to, "make your call and election sure," when you yourself have nothing to do with it. I am not posting to argue or change your mind, but I am posting so as not to allow you to lead others into error unchallenged.

It was stated that the fact that God elected any for life is truly amazing grace. But not to those who were arbitrarily chosen for destruction. The article by Christ_Alone reminds me of some papers that I wrote in college. Two of them particularly, where I showed from a combination of scriptures and logic that

a. The Tree of Life is in the Bermuda triangle
b. Adam and Eve were identical twins

Niether of these is true, of course, but the use of scripture and logic was indeed flawless. Indeed, it is for this reason that God chose the foolish and unwise to confound the "wise".

God's grace is not irresistable, and His atonement was not limited.

John 3:16 -
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son, that whosoever believes on Him will not die, but have everlasting life."

- This atonement was offered to the world and whosoever
- To believe or disbelieve is a choice

In addition, regardless of any rhetoric to say otherwise, the order of events in Romans 8 says that He foreknew then he predestined those whom He foreknew. It does not say, as Christ_Alone would teach, that foreknowledge came as a result of predestination.

It does not honor God to portray Him as a puppeteer.

Strength & Honor
:cool: :cool:

Brandan
03-22-02, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by EndureToLive
But I am posting so as not to allow you to lead others into error unchallenged.You're not the first to post the opinion of the majority.


God's grace is not irresistable, and His atonement was not limited.It's funny how Arminians can conclude that His grace in creating them, choosing their parents, and then predestininating grace of choosing where they are born is irresistable, but then swing full circle and make the audacious claim that saving grace can be resisted.


John 3:16 -
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son, that whosoever believes on Him will not die, but have everlasting life."

- This atonement was offered to the world and whosoever
- To believe or disbelieve is a choiceI agree. But I think we disagree on who is the world.


It does not honor God to portray Him as a puppeteer.It sure is easy to tear down a straw man, isn't it? I tell you what's dishonoring to God is taking the keys of salvation out of His hands and claiming them for yourself.


Strength & Honormeekness and humility

Christ__Alone
03-22-02, 11:46 AM
It's quite revealing, the pride in man that refuses to submit to what the Scriptures teach on this - and at the same time - be so dogmatic about the opposite view, that is NOT supported by the Scriptures.

God's will be done - as it always is.

disciple
03-22-02, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by EndureToLive
Thank you Kermie, but because the article fits in with your theology does not make it fit into the Bible...I am not posting to argue or change your mind, but I am posting so as not to allow you to lead others into error unchallenged.
EndureToLive, please stay on topic. while your comments may address the subject it is not relevant to the intent of thread. here is what universe asked:


Anyone else just learning about some of this too? I am reading the article on Predestination by L. Boetner in the library. Would anyone like to read through it with me a chapter at a time, maybe one per week, and then discuss it?

so it appears that you are not just learning but have figured out what you believe. therefore what you have to offer is not relevant to the intent of the post. if you have read the article and want to read through it with universe a chapter at a time and then discuss it (the book), then that's another story.

Here is the forum rule:


Try and stay on topic
Please try to stay on the current topic in each thread. Of course, it's common for discussions to branch off into many tangents. If you see this beginning to occur, please start a new thread, or take the discussion to the appropriate forum.

Please try to post in the appropriate forum. Don't be upset if we move your post to a more approriate forum or thread. If we feel it appropriate to move a post or a thread, they are simple enough to find by using the "view recent posts" option.

simply posting to be argumentative and to try to make sure we don't "deceive" is not helpful or conducive to the purpose of the thread. if you want to debate these issues then start another thread for that purpose.


No arguing or complaining publicly with the moderator
Complaining publicly about someone or their posts...


In addition, regardless of any rhetoric to say otherwise, the order of events in Romans 8 says that He foreknew then he predestined those whom He foreknew. It does not say, as Christ_Alone would teach, that foreknowledge came as a result of predestination.
the term foreknowledge (prognosis) never refers to His foreknowledge of our actions or choices (as if God is a mere spectator like the deists claim) but refers to the fact that He intimately knew us in eternity past (eph 1:4, acts 2:23 refers to a deliberate act or choice; used of Christ in 1 pe 1:20; similar thought in john 17:24).

disciple
03-22-02, 12:21 PM
further violation of the rules could result in banning. just try to be careful.

EndureToLive
03-22-02, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by kermie
It's funny how Arminians can conclude that His grace in creating them, choosing their parents, and then predestininating grace of choosing where they are born is irresistable, but then swing full circle and make the audacious claim that saving grace can be resisted.

Is limited grace the 3 1/2 point of Calvinism? Creation and (physical) birth are not grace, particularly for those that you would say God created for for destruction "because He wanted to."


Originally posted by kermie
I agree. But I think we disagree on who is the world.

Who, then, is the world? What limits do you place on "whoseoever"?


Originally posted by kermie
It sure is easy to tear down a straw man, isn't it?

Surely, we can do away with this tired phrase. And, while I do not hold the keys of salvation, Jesus has offered freedom to all to accept or decline. A forced gift is no gift at all. Reference the healing at the pool of Bethesda.

John 5:6
"When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he had already been in that condition a long time He said to him, "Do you want to be made well?"

The grace of healing to this man was offered, for the man to accept or reject. It was not something that the man could achieve, and it was not in his hands to accomplish. What he was given was a choice.

Finally, I would prefer not to be called an Arminian. I am a Christian.

Gareth

EndureToLive
03-22-02, 01:18 PM
Well, as I see I have been chastised, I will offer no more on this thread. I must say, however, that I was responding to universes following question: What am I missing here? Was the decision ever really ours?

And, learning does not come from one side, but hearing both and making an intelligent decision.

Gareth:cool:

disciple
03-22-02, 01:35 PM
see the original post of universe. if you're not reading through the book/article with her to help her understand the book/article and calvinism (which she is investigating) then refrain from posting. if you want to discuss the issues then start another thread. it's that simple. no need to argue, no need to cause trouble. if you want to prevent universe from being deceived then PM or email her or start another thread and direct her to it. i'm not too sure what you're not understanding about this...

EndureToLive
03-26-02, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by universe
It seems that here they are saying that we were specifically created to either choose god and go to eternal life with him or not choose him and go to eternal death without him. But the last quote we discussed seemed to say that he created us with a specific purpose, without consideration of what he knew we would decide, but that the decision was still ours.

What am I missing here? Was the decision ever really ours?

No, as this chapter reads the decision is/was never ours, for that would infringe upon God's sovereignty. In fact, I was surprised to find that it is taught that not only is my eternity predetermined, but also "the works that we do outwardly, [and] the thoughts we think inwardly." Am I reading this right? The world is following a script written by God, no ad-libbing possible.

There does seem to be a contradiction in that very same paragraph though.

"There is no such thing as chance, or fortune; nor is there a readier way to gain the fear of God, and to put our whole trust in Him, than to be thoroughly versed in the doctrine of predestination"
- Melanchthon

How could one presume to gain the fear of God or put their whole trust in Him. If indeed his thoughts/actions have been preordained by God, independent of any effort, then he will fear and trust or he won't, regardless of what he may or may not be thoroughly versed in. Can I get a little help on this?

Also, if God has preordained some for eternal death, with no regard to foreknowledge, has He then become unjust? To create an eternal soul, only to condemn it to eternal death with no opportunity to choose life?

disciple
03-27-02, 12:24 PM
those are great questions and not very easy ones to answer. i'll try to answer as briefly and concisely as possible.

basically b/c of the fall of adam, all men and women born since then are born sinful (not only in action but in nature; e.g., we sin because we're sinners NOT we are sinners because we sin). we all fell or sinned in adam (romans 5). the bible also describes us as lost, blind, dead, enslaved to sin and satan, deaf, dumb, weak, enemies of God, wicked, and that even our best works are filthy rags before God. this is man's status and state before God. we have no concious choice on whether or not we want to be born this way, this is just the way it is. this is the viewpoint or presupposition from which the author is working from. and it is thoroughly rooted in Scripture. to deny that man is what i said above is to deny the clear words of Scripture (but the debate or disagreement is on what the implications of this biblical teaching are and to what extent we are these things).

so with that foundation, man couldn't do anything or choose God unless God first did something about it and something about man's nature or desire. this is what regeneration is. God not only sent His Son to pay the price for our sin (which is His grace) but He makes us alive (which is also His grace; eph 2:1ff, esp. v. 5). so we do choose God but God had to do something in us first to enable us to desire or want Christ. He gives us the desire so that we are able to want and freely choose Christ. the Scripture alternatively describes this as enlightening us, opening our eyes, freeing us, drawing us, etc. when our eyes are open there is no other option or other thing we want more than to embrace Christ. the fact of the matter is, that God does not have to save any of us. rather than saying it's not fair or that i never had a choice, we should thank God that He was gracious and had mercy on us at all. God wasn't obligated to save anyone. if He were obligated it would no longer be grace and mercy but justice that He save. this is the perspective and point of view the author is working from. now you can decide whether or not Scripture really teaches this or whether this is an accurate depiction of what is found in Scripture. i hope this helps clear up what the author is saying. thanks!