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lionovjudah
07-10-05, 09:26 PM
What is the Doctrine of the common fall?

Brandan
07-10-05, 09:58 PM
What is the Doctrine of the common fall?
See this thread: http://www.predestinarian.net/showthread.php?t=1768

lionovjudah
07-11-05, 07:24 AM
Brandan, it did nto work, but I am having some trouble with the comp today.

Anyway, Bob, or anyone who denies the common fall, does this have to do with all falling in ADAM? Elect and Reprobate?

Brandan
07-11-05, 07:50 AM
Yes, we deny that the reprobate fell in Adam. We believe only the elect fell in Adam. The reprobate were created in the eternal sin of Satan.

lionovjudah
07-11-05, 08:03 AM
Yes, we deny that the reprobate fell in Adam. We believe only the elect fell in Adam. The reprobate were created in the eternal sin of Satan.

I think you enjoy doing this to me BK.!!!!!!! Where is that spoken of in scripture? The elect are "guilty" from one sin and the reprobate another?

Before I get into this, let me understnsad this correctly.

1) you deny The Federald Headship of Adam?
2) you deny 2000 years of church teaching?
3) do you deny the doctrine of original sin?
4) What is the eternal sin of Satan?

Joe

Brandan
07-11-05, 08:08 AM
I think you enjoy doing this to me BK.!!!!!!! Where is that spoken of in scripture? The elect are "guilty" from one sin and the reprobate another?

Before I get into this, let me understnsad this correctly.

1) you deny The Federald Headship of Adam?
2) you deny 2000 years of church teaching?
3) do you deny the doctrine of original sin?
4) What is the eternal sin of Satan?

Joe
I do not deny the federal headship of Adam. Like I said, the elect fell in him.
I do not believe Adam represented the reprobate.
I believe Satan is the reprobate's representative.
I do deny much of the traditional thought on this subject.
I do not deny the concept of imputed sin. The reprobate's sin is unredeemable sin because God has said so. It is everlasting. The sin of the elect was only temporal in Adam because they have a Savior.
Read that thread I posted.

lionovjudah
07-11-05, 08:28 AM
I do not deny the federal headship of Adam. Like I said, the elect fell in him. I do not believe Adam represented the reprobate. I believe Satan is the reprobate's representative.I do deny much of the traditional thought on this subject.I do not deny the concept of imputed sin.The reprobate's sin is unredeemable sin because God has said so. It is everlasting. The sin of the elect was only temporal in Adam because they have a Savior.
Read that thread I posted.

I am trying to, but I cannot connect for some odd reason.

Where can I find in scripture anythign that speaks of "Satans Eternal SIn" imputed to the reprobate?

ANother immediate objection would be the "cause" of reprobation.

This appears to suppose that God created man without a purpose. This is contrary to His attribute of wisdom. God first fixed the end for man's creation and then determined the means to create him. No wise potter would first make his pots and then decide for what use he made them.

God did nto create the reprobate just to damn them, He created them for His Glory. The elect and reprobate are from the same lump. His decree of reprobation is traceable to His good pleasure. If sin were the cause of the decree, then all would have been rejected because all fell in Adam! The same lump, coincides with a "common fall". Your line of reasoning puts the reprobate in a different lump, and ands up saying they are destroyed becuase of satans sin. Predestination is man as lying in the mass of creatorship, signified by a lump of clay before being put into shape. There is probably an allusion to the creation of Adam out of the dust of the ground. The word "Adam" means "red earth" or clay.

I do nto know BK. I believe you may be straining the gnats, but closing your eyes to the 2 big humps of a camel on this one. But I will give it a fair shake because at least it makes me think!!!!!


Joe

Brandan
07-11-05, 08:33 AM
This appears to suppose that God created man without a purpose. This is contrary to His attribute of wisdom. God first fixed the end for man's creation and then determined the means to create him. No wise potter would first make his pots and then decide for what use he made them.I'm not saying that. We believe that God made the reprobate pot for the purpose of damning him.

God did nto create the reprobate just to damn them,Yes He did.

He created them for His Glory.His Glory in Damning them.

The elect and reprobate are from the same lump.Unfallen lump. Not a fallen lump.

If sin were the cause of the decreeI'm not saying that. Sin is the result of the decree.

then all would have been rejected because all fell in Adam!All did not fall in Adam.

The same lump, coincides with a "common fall".No it doesn't. That's infralapsarianism.

Your line of reasoning puts the reprobate in a different lump, and ands up saying they are destroyed becuase of satans sin. You could put all of the Angels, Satan, Elect and Reprobate all in one lump in God's mind before the foundation of the world. All of them are vessels - each of them fitted for a different purpose.

cih92
07-11-05, 08:56 AM
If the reprobate did not fall in Adam, where did they inherit their sinful nature from?

Preaching about hell is not a persuasion technique. The purpose of preaching about hell is not to scare people. The Bible talks about hell and preachers are supposed to preach everything that is in the Bible. Moreover, we are supposed to speak the truth to everyone.

lionovjudah
07-11-05, 09:05 AM
I'm not saying that. We believe that God made the reprobate pot for the purpose of damning him.

Well, lets us look at what Scripture says. And there is no hint He created them just to Damn them.

First, it was because God is willing to show His wrath. The punishment upon these vessels of wrath will be made an occasion of God's exhibition of His holy anger against sin. His hatred of sin is absolute, and the vessels of wrath will be made to experience it to the fullest extent. The entrance of sin into the world was necessary to manifest God's wrath and hatred for sin. He tolerates sin in the world for the very purpose of glorifying Himself in its punishment.

Second, it was to "make his power known." This truth is illustrated in the case of Pharoah (Rom. 9:17). The power of God is what punishes men for their sins. Their destruction proceeds from "the glory of his power" (II Thess. 1:9). The eternal damnation of some sinners will demonstrate to the universe the power of God. Sin in its nature is a dishonor to God, but He overrules it so as to turn the destruction of the wicked to His glory. This is a most wonderful display of Divine power to men and angels.




Unfallen lump. Not a fallen lump.

I agree. Which also includes no hint of same eternal sin of Satan.


All did not fall in Adam.

Yes All did according to te writ. Some redeemed, some not



No it doesn't. That's infralapsarianism.
You could put all of the Angels, Satan, Elect and Reprobate all in one lump in God's mind before the foundation of the world. All of them are vessels - each of them fitted for a different purpose.


IT is ALL creation Brandan. No need ot put them into diffeent categories. I do nto know how this infers infra. THere is a direct relation to the words used by Paul to signify ALL creation is part of the same lump for eternity. Hence if they are all created from the same lump, (the earth, red clay) Thay ALL have adam as their federal head.

Men are not passed over by God because of their sins, for if this be true all would have been passed over. Both election and reprobation are owing to God's good pleasure. "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Essu have I hated" (Rom. 9:11-13).

He could have justly left the elect as well as the non-elect to perish in their sins. Had He been pleased to do so, He would have still been the King of kings and the Lord of lords. The wicked are treated as they deserve to be treated. All are ill-deserving and undeserving. None have any claim on God, for His will is the only rule for His mercy. God in His sovereignty has power to dispose of His creature according to His good pleasure, either to choose or refuse, according to the counsel of His own will. Job 33:13 says: ". . . for he giveth not account of any of his matters."



Joe

lionovjudah
07-11-05, 09:14 AM
ANother obvious objection, besides the fact this belief is unscriptural, is that it makes one's salvation dependant upon how they were created. The fact remains, were are from the "SAME LUMP". The difference is because God purposed to save the Elect in Christ, and not the rest.

The common fall of man, both elect and reprobate, gives more Glory to God for Salvation in Christ and the Work of the Holy Spirit upon the elect sinner. This is very close again to denying the elects guilt because of Adam, and outs the reproabte in a different lump,.

Brandan
07-11-05, 09:42 AM
I'm done answering questions and objections until you read that other thread Joe. :D

lionovjudah
07-11-05, 09:48 AM
I'm done answering questions and objections until you read that other thread Joe. :D

OK, I will let you know when I am done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lionovjudah
07-11-05, 11:53 AM
Paul's doctrine of election and reprobation before existence or having done either good or bad is in harmony with the view that the clay refers to the dust of the ground from which God determined to create an elect and reprobate humanity.

Brandan, I wrote,Predestination is man as lying in the mass of creatorship, signified by a lump of clay before being put into shape. There is probably an allusion to the creation of Adam out of the dust of the ground. The word "Adam" means "red earth" or clay.

You answered that it somehow represents infra. This same lump of unfallen humanity is from where God creted. TO espouse the reprobate are created with some "eternal sin" infused into them is not found in the writ, as far as I can see.

From what I read in the previous thread, I am aligning myself with Ian, I will definately give this more thought because it is very important in my feeble estimation.

Brandan
07-11-05, 11:58 AM
I thought you meant that the lump was a fallen lump from which God fashioned all men as infras plainly teach.

lionovjudah
07-11-05, 01:27 PM
THe more I read about this "theory" the more it begins to resemble the seedline doctrine, or identity doctrine. This espoused Gods savation was because of race, or creation and not grace.

All of humanity, every single sperm/egg creation comes from the same lump. There are not LITERAL decendants of satan. I believe this is the logical conclusion of this belief. That somehow Satan impregnated eve in the garden, and begat Cain.

Adam & Eve were driven out of the Garden before the birth of any children. This perversion leads to the theory that the pharisees of Christ's day were from a supposed literal seed of Satan, John 8:44.

Certainly, we cannot deny that God does chose to exalt one nation or peoples above all others; this He has done in His Sovereignty throughout history, e.g., Babylon, Dan 4:26, 32, 35, &c. But it is the greatest of sins, pride, for any of us to consider ourselves exalted above all others without focusing on the works of Christ for His sheep.

Brandan
07-11-05, 03:24 PM
The difference between our view and the parkerite two seeders is they believe the seed is physical instead of spiritual.

Brandan
07-11-05, 03:34 PM
Well, lets us look at what Scripture says. And there is no hint He created them just to Damn them. Are the reprobate to be damned? If so, that's the reason they were created.

Will the elect be glorified? If so, that's the reason they were created.

Did Jesus save His people? If so, that's the reason He came into this world born of a virgin.

Did Adam sin? If so, then he was created for that purpose.

Was adam saved? If so, then he was created for that purpose also.

Of course the ultimate reason for anything is God is glorified.

Joe, this is not rocket science. It's simple logic.

lionovjudah
07-11-05, 04:03 PM
Are the reprobate to be damned? If so, that's the reason they were created.

Will the elect be glorified? If so, that's the reason they were created.

Did Jesus save His people? If so, that's the reason He came into this world born of a virgin.

Did Adam sin? If so, then he was created for that purpose.

Was adam saved? If so, then he was created for that purpose also.

Of course the ultimate reason for anything is God is glorified.

Joe, this is not rocket science. It's simple logic.


This is not their primary reason though Brandan. It is to glorify God. Show His power. All I meant is it does not state in scripture, "I created the reprobate just to damn them." They end up damned, but why are they damned? Are they damned because of their sin? Yes. There is a difference between reprobation and damnation. Just as their is a difference between election and salvation.

Brandan
07-11-05, 04:06 PM
Are they damned because of their sin? Yes. There is a difference between reprobation and damnation. The ultimate reason is God wanted it.

lionovjudah
07-11-05, 04:10 PM
The difference between our view and the parkerite two seeders is they believe the seed is physical instead of spiritual.


All these ites, you really need to put something in the forum defining these!!!!!!


Either way, it creates a dulaism that mirrors Zoarasterism...

Again, it denies the same lump..... The reporabate become seeds of Satan because of reprobation, it becomes the fruit of a bad tree.

They do not possess any more sin, or this eternal sin, whatever that is. And are not created in it or with it.


And the elect are saved in Christ. The reprobate are not.


Joe

Mickey
07-11-05, 04:47 PM
They end up damned, but why are they damned? Are they damned because of their sin? Yes.

No. They sin and remain dead in that sin because of God's purpose in election. God does not base His decrees on the 'foreseen' acts of men. This is free-willism.

There is a difference between reprobation and damnation. Just as their is a difference between election and salvation.

What do you mean by this.

Brandan
07-11-05, 05:00 PM
Amen Doc! Lion, here is some info on parkerism
http://www.primitivebaptist.org/writers/hassell/interpreting/interpreting_07.htm

.....Whether with such a design or not, the heathenish perversions of Scriptural truth set forth by Eld. Daniel Parker, of Tennessee, about 1835, in his pamphlet called "My Views on the Two Seeds," have corrupted Primitive Baptist doctrine more, and rent off more members and churches from our fellowship, than any and all other causes combined. In the census of 1890, the Two-Seed Baptists claim to have 333 churches and 9,932 members in 33 States, the largest membership being 2,019 in Texas, 1,270 in Tennessee, 1,230 in Arkansas, 965 in Kentucky, 840 in Mississippi, 668 in Missouri, 641 in West Virginia, 538 in Alabama, 330 in Georgia, and from 10 to 194 in each of 14 other States. (The entire number of Primitive Baptists in the United States is probably about 100,000.) .... In its most logical form this wild pagan philosophy begins, in the past eternity, with an Eternal, Self-Existent, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent God, the Author of all good, and an Eternal, Self-Existent, Omnipresent and almost Omnipotent Devil, the Author of all evil, and ends, in the future eternity, with the same two and only two Beings--all created beings, both good and evil, having emanated, in time, from these two Beings respectively, and having at last returned into them; the whole speculation, therefore, so far as human beings are concerned, is an impractical and worthless theory. The author of the system was Zoroaster a heathen philosopher, who lived in Iran or Persia, about 1000 B C.; and those who first sought to incorporate this doctrine of an Eternal Devil into Christianity were the Gnostics of the first and second centuries, and the Manichees of the third century of the Christian era, who also denied the real humanity of Christ, and the real resurrection of the body, which errors were denounced as antichristian heresies by the Apostles John and Paul (I John iv. 3; 2 Tim. ii. 17, 18). ...... In its most logical form this wild pagan philosophy begins, in the past eternity, with an Eternal, Self-Existent, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent God, the Author of all good, and an Eternal, Self-Existent, Omnipresent and almost Omnipotent Devil, the Author of all evil, and ends, in the future eternity, with the same two and only two Beings--all created beings, both good and evil, having emanated, in time, from these two Beings respectively, and having at last returned into them; the whole speculation, therefore, so far as human beings are concerned, is an impractical and worthless theory. The author of the system was Zoroaster a heathen philosopher, who lived in Iran or Persia, about 1000 B C.; and those who first sought to incorporate this doctrine of an Eternal Devil into Christianity were the Gnostics of the first and second centuries, and the Manichees of the third century of the Christian era, who also denied the real humanity of Christ, and the real resurrection of the body, which errors were denounced as antichristian heresies by the Apostles John and Paul (I John iv. 3; 2 Tim. ii. 17, 18). ..... Parkerism, while professing to establish grace and election, really do away with both, making salvation dependent on natural birth instead of grace, and offering it to all Adam's posterity, instead of to a part. Let me state up front that I reject parkerism as blasphemy. It's disgusting. I have nothing in common with two seed parkerism.

Here is what I believe in a nutshell. I believe all men find their natural origin in Adam - the first Adam. All men (universally) are physically descended from Adam. However, not all men fall and are redeemed like Adam was. Adam represented only his elect descendents in his fall. His reprobate descendents are fashioned in eternal sin just like Satan. That is, they will keep on sinning whereas Adam's sin and his descendent's sin is only temporal. Eventually Adam stopped sinning as will his elect descendents. The elect are the seed of Christ. There is the seed of Satan vs. the seed of Christ. Adam represented Christ's seed in the fall. He did not represent Satan's seed! Satan and his seed are made to be destroyed! (enough of my rambling)

Brandan
07-11-05, 05:05 PM
Bob posted this in his blog entry, but I'll do it again for those that missed it.

Jn 8:44, (KJV), Ye are of your father the devil [that is, you are his seed], and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Mickey
07-11-05, 05:08 PM
Either way, it creates a dulaism that mirrors Zoarasterism...

Do you mean Zoroastrianism? If so then to claim this is absured. Zoroastrianism is indeed a dualist religion. But they believe that Angra Mainyu (their Satan) opposes Ahura Mazda (their god). While we hold that Satan and all his minions are God's pawns.

The reporabate become seeds of Satan because of reprobation, it becomes the fruit of a bad tree.

You are starting to get it then!

John 8:43-35

43Why do ye not understand My speech? Even because ye cannot hear My Word!


44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe Me not.

lionovjudah
07-11-05, 05:59 PM
The reporabate become seeds of Satan because of reprobation, it becomes the fruit of a bad tree.

You are starting to get it then!

John 8:43-35

43Why do ye not understand My speech? Even because ye cannot hear My Word!


44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe Me not.




Mike, I get it!!!!!!!!! The BECOME seeds of satan. They are not created as seeds of Satan

lionovjudah
07-11-05, 06:02 PM
They end up damned, but why are they damned? Are they damned because of their sin? Yes.

No. They sin and remain dead in that sin because of God's purpose in election. God does not base His decrees on the 'foreseen' acts of men. This is free-willism.

There is a difference between reprobation and damnation. Just as their is a difference between election and salvation.

What do you mean by this.


Mike, I know it is not based on anything forseen. But people are not damned for anything other than their sin. People do not sin because of reprobation. In fact all have sinned right? So the decree to reprobate, does not effect anyones nature. Total depravity right? We sin because we are sinners.

Part of justification is forgiveness of sins, therefore, those who are not justified, are not forgiven. Like I mentioned before. the elect are guilty of damnation if God was so pleased. But because of His mercy, He saved His sheep.

The purpose of election has nothing to do with sin. Everyone sins, elect or reprobate!!!!!

ugly_gaunt_cow
07-11-05, 06:35 PM
it does not state in scripture, "I created the reprobate just to damn them."

Actually, it does... And this will twist anyone's theology to make them rethink whatever they've been taught:

Prov 16:4, (KJV), The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Mickey
07-11-05, 07:09 PM
The BECOME seeds of satan. They are not created as seeds of Satan

And at what point in someones life do they 'become' a seed of Satan? Is this like reverse regeneration?

People do not sin because of reprobation.

People sin because it is decreed by God. It is part of His plan. He will punish the reprobate for this sin and Christ took that punishment for His sheep. But the damnation is not a response it is PREDETERMINED.

So the decree to reprobate, does not effect anyones nature.

While I agree with the 5 points they by no means go in depth enough to explain what we are talking about here. God creates His vessles of mercy and wrath and imparts to them their nature. This is not a biological nature but a spiritual nature that is determined by God. Those that are reprobate are not simply 'passed by' as the 'infra' teaching suggests; their reprobation is an active decree. God's decree to reprobate may not be the same decree --if we can refer to it like that--as the reprobated nature, but it certainly accompanies this decree. Along with thier reprobation comes their nature, they are of the devil or the seed of the devil, they ARE devils and they will all be destroyed together.

Bob Higby
07-11-05, 08:50 PM
The view that I espouse has nothing in common with Parkerism or Zoroastrianism. It is true that Parkerism does espouse many of the same tenets of the heathen Zoroastrian religion. It denies that God created evil; instead it proposes that righteousness and evil are co-eternal principles. Good and evil are said to be transmitted biologically--with only the physical righteous seed (which is proposed to exist from conception--another non-biblical position) is believed to be from God. There is no explanation for the origin of evil and its 'physical seed' or life-stream.

Both Parkerism and Zoroastrianism are children of Manichean philosophy. They are both demonic in their origin and are condemned by scripture.

InChristAlways
07-11-05, 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by lionovjudahit does not state in scripture, "I created the reprobate just to damn them."
Actually, it does... And this will twist anyone's theology to make them rethink whatever they've been taught:



Prov 16:4, (KJV), The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.Hi UGC. I have studied Job/Proverbs "prophetically" and curiously that same "day of evil" is used in Jeremiah 17 which is the chapter on the Sin of Judah. What would be the purpose of putting "the day" in it unless that is a full rebellion of evil of some sort.
It almost appears as if God is bringing the evil against evil? Jesus mentioned that in His gospel, that each brother's sword will be against His own brother[spirit of delusion?] and Judah/Judas appears to be the "lawless one"?.

So God raised up the jews to destroy them?
I have more on this but it would be off topic.[ edit: the "jews" tend to "skim" over this chapter for some reason, I wonder why]Just thought this was interesting.
Blessings.

Proverbs 16:4 Everything, hath Yahweh made for its own purpose, yea, even the lawless one, for the day of evil#[07451]

Jeremiah 17::1 "The sin of Judah written with a pen of iron; With the point of a diamond [it is] engraved On the tablet of their heart, And on the horns of your altars, .......For you have kindled a fire in My anger [which] shall burn forever." .........[I]18 Let them be ashamed who persecute me, But do not let me be put to shame; Let them be dismayed, But do not let me be dismayed. Bring on them the day of evil[#07451], And destroy them with double destruction! 19 Thus the LORD said to me: "Go and stand in the gate of the children of the people, by which the kings of Judah come in and by which they go out, and in all the gates of Jerusalem;

romans 9:22 [What] if God, wanting to show [His] wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [even] us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

lionovjudah
07-11-05, 09:31 PM
The view that I espouse has nothing in common with Parkerism or Zoroastrianism. It is true that Parkerism does espouse many of the same tenets of the heathen Zoroastrian religion. It denies that God created evil; instead it proposes that righteousness and evil are co-eternal principles. Good and evil are said to be transmitted biologically--with only the physical righteous seed (which is proposed to exist from conception--another non-biblical position) is believed to be from God. There is no explanation for the origin of evil and its 'physical seed' or life-stream.




Is not is taught that our nature is also a biological heredity of Adam? The dualism I speak of is one that has a constant existance of good vs evil.

lionovjudah
07-11-05, 09:38 PM
The BECOME seeds of satan. They are not created as seeds of Satan

And at what point in someones life do they 'become' a seed of Satan? Is this like reverse regeneration?

People do not sin because of reprobation.


People sin because it is decreed by God. It is part of His plan. He will punish the reprobate for this sin and Christ took that punishment for His sheep. But the damnation is not a response it is PREDETERMINED.

People sin because of our nature. Of ocurse damnation is determined, but it does not equal the decree to reprobate. Their is a preterition, and a decree to punish them for this sin which was nnot atoned for by Christ






Along with thier reprobation comes their nature, they are of the devil or the seed of the devil, they ARE devils and they will all be destroyed together.





Mike, They are of the devil because they do not believe. Wy dont they believe? The Holy Spirit does not bring them to life.

The issue at hand is there is not any scriptural evidence of some creation of an eternal sin. Some sin of Satan. This is not in scripture, never has been confessed or taught. We are the same lump. We are all sinners. All deserve eternal damnation. But God in His mercy decreed to save same out of the same lump. The reprobate do not have some 'extra sin" that is unredeemable. Christ died for all manner of sin, including the sin of un belief. Which the reprobate die in

Mickey
07-11-05, 10:08 PM
Me: And at what point in someones life do they 'become' a seed of Satan? Is this like reverse regeneration?

LOJ: People do not sin because of reprobation.

You didn't answer the question.

People sin because of our nature. Of ocurse damnation is determined, but it does not equal the decree to reprobate. Their is a preterition, and a decree to punish them for this sin which was nnot atoned for by Christ

What is your definition of reprobation? Do you think that God just creates, gives the nature and lets the person do as he/she pleases. Meaning since the person is Totaly Depraved they will only sin? Or do you believe that God has predestined every move they make? Reprobation includes every intention God has towards that soul. Same with Election.

Do you believe that the reprobate was savable, but God just mearly doesn't save them?

Mike, They are of the devil because they do not believe. Wy dont they believe? The Holy Spirit does not bring them to life.

They are of the devil because God decreed them to be of the devil and not believe.


The issue at hand is there is not any scriptural evidence of some creation of an eternal sin. Some sin of Satan. This is not in scripture, never has been confessed or taught.

Really! After all this time I thought I had scriptural support. I thought I was convinced by sound scriptural logic. Well I guess I have to throw in the towel then!:p

lionovjudah
07-12-05, 08:27 AM
Mike, I believe his is a huge dirgression from Bobs blog. I apologize for perpetuating this.

cih92
07-12-05, 11:07 AM
Do you think that God just creates, gives the nature and lets the person do as he/she pleases. Meaning since the person is Totaly Depraved they will only sin? Or do you believe that God has predestined every move they make?



God predestines every move of the reprobate and at the same time permits them to sin. Permitting them to sin does not mean that their actions are outside of God's control.

Brandan
07-12-05, 11:11 AM
I find it interesting cih92 that you think God can actively predestine every event and then passively carry it out.

cih92
07-12-05, 11:20 AM
Do you believe that the reprobate was savable, but God just mearly doesn't save them?


God has the power to save the reprobate, but He decided not to save them. The reprobate do not have the power to save themselves.

InChristAlways
07-12-05, 11:58 AM
God has the power to save the reprobate, but He decided not to save them. The reprobate do not have the power to save themselves.How do others view this verse in John. Jesus almost appears to be saying to those that are believing in God are in sin as they see the Word but don't live it.
Another words, there appears to be as much judgement on those who believe as there are on those that don't. Has this passage been discussed anywhere else? Thanks.

John 9:38 Then he said, "Lord, I believe!" And he worshiped Him. 39 And Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind." 40 Then [some] of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, "Are we blind also?" 41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains.

lionovjudah
07-12-05, 12:20 PM
How do others view this verse in John. Jesus almost appears to be saying to those that are believing in God are in sin as they see the Word but don't live it.
Another words, there appears to be as much judgement on those who believe as there are on those that don't. Has this passage been discussed anywhere else? Thanks.

"If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains.

Christ is telling the Pharisees that being blind equals the need for Christ to lead them. But in their pride and self sufficiency, they increased the gravity of their sin of unbelief. So they are not believing in God, they are believing in themselves.

By exclaiming that "We see" is admitting their pride. They think they see, but they are actually blind and not enlightened to the truth of Christ

InChristAlways
07-12-05, 05:42 PM
John 9:38 Then he said, "Lord, I believe!" And he worshiped Him. 39 And Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind." 40 Then [some] of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, "Are we blind also?" 41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains.

Christ is telling the Pharisees that being blind equals the need for Christ to lead them. But in their pride and self sufficiency, they increased the gravity of their sin of unbelief. So they are not believing in God, they are believing in themselves.

By exclaiming that "We see" is admitting their pride. They think they see, but they are actually blind and not enlightened to the truth of ChristHi lov. Thanks for responding. Pride and haughty were pretty serious offences in God's eyes it seems. And this message was also to them:

Matt 23:38 "See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 "for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed [is] He who comes in the name of the LORD!' "

Leviticus 26:18 ' And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. 19 I will break the pride of your power; I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze.

Obadiah 1:3 The pride of your heart has deceived you, [You] who dwell in the clefts of the rock, Whose habitation is high; [You] who say in your heart, 'Who will bring me down to the ground?'

1 Tim 3:5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the [same] condemnation as the devil.

Bob Higby
07-12-05, 06:35 PM
LJ:

And at what point in someones life do they 'become' a seed of Satan? Is this like reverse regeneration?

A fair question. No, it is NOT reverse regeneration--a thousand times no! The devil was a liar and murderer from the beginning, from his first moment of consciousness. As is the devil, so are ALL of his children--both spirit and human. The seed of eternal sin is different from the seed of temporal sin from day one.

The 'common clay' referred to by Paul in Rom. 9 is simply human existence that is created from the dust of the ground. In no way does it refer to 'common sin'. In Paul's analogy--God creates some of the dust to eternal life and others of the dust to eternal punishment--without even considering sin as a factor in his decision. It is dual election before either had done good OR BAD of any sort. There is no evil in clay; that is the point.

The only truth to a common fall is that all (excepting Christ) are conceived in iniquity. The issue here is whether all are conceived in the same substance and essence of iniquity. Is there a distinction between temporal evil (which is destined to be overcome by God's miracle of regeneration) and unstoppable or eternal sin which cannot be reversed even by God--due to his supralapsarian decree and corresponding creation of spirits in that type of evil. Is his will done on earth as it is decreed in heaven?

Mickey
07-12-05, 08:57 PM
Bob, I actually asked that question in response to Joe's comment about the reprobate:

"They BECOME seeds of satan. They are not created as seeds of Satan."

So I responded with: "And at what point in someones life do they 'become' a seed of Satan? Is this like reverse regeneration?"

The reason I asked this question is because it can't be answered. People becoming seeds of Satan? Maybe I miss understood the statement?

What seems logical to me and lines up with scriptureis that God devised a plan to create two kingdoms that would be totally and utterly under His complete and absolute control. Nothing would happen apart from Him causing it. In this plan a covenant was established in the Godhead that a people would be created for mercy and another for damnation both parts giving God alone the glory. It was decided that a man would be created and from him a woman and from those two; the human race would come. Biologically every person that has ever existed came from Adam. But it was never intended that life be lived out for eternity in the flesh as it was in the garden and as it is today. The elect were are created to live and walk with God for eternity and the reprobate were created as an example to the elect of what they could have been if God had chosen to make them that way. For this we praise Him for His grace and mercy in Christ.

Now, the spiritual condition or nature of man is given to each individual according to God's decree. It is not a biological process that is passed on genetically. If we are one of Christ’s sheep we were brought into this world for the sole purpose of mercy and grace. With this we have the assurance that God's love has always favored us and His grace and mercy have guided our steps all our lives even while we were at enmity with Him in our minds. If we are a reprobate we have Christ’s words that tell us we are a child of Satan. Paul’s words: a vessel of wrath in which God endures their existence. We can know that the Child of the devil has always been hated by God and His wrath has always abided on them. Any perceived good towards them we know in realty is judgment.

The difference between the not-yet-regenerate elect and the reprobate is the kingdom they belong to. The elect experience in every way what the reprobate does before they are regenerated. They hate God, desire the things of the flesh, they hate His Law or they use it to promote their lies and manipulate the weak. The elect are guilty of all these things. Only their sin is atoned for and they are loved dearly by their Father. But they are not of the Devil for Christ says that those whose father is the Devil cannot here His words and do not believe. It is these that we say are the seed of the Devil(Gen 3:15). Their representative then is the Devil. The Devil represents those whose sin is not atoned for and are kept in darkness forever. The elect’s representative is Adam whose sin was atoned for by Christ--the second Adam--and who was converted to the truth.

I say as Bob said that because of the 'fixed' or 'irreversible' decree of God that some are reprobate and some are elect, a difference exists. To what degree I do not know.

Mickey
07-12-05, 09:11 PM
I didn't know Bob had posted this and because it completes my thoughts, I thought I would tag my last post with it. Well put Bob!



We now come to the last discussion, which is the matter of two seeds of evil—the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. The promised seed of the woman is ultimately Jesus Christ. However, the culmination of the prophecy in him is not all that is talked about. There is a long historical enmity between the two seeds which spans the time between the original curse and the death of the promised Messiah.

‘Seed’ in this instance cannot mean pure biological descent, though it includes an element of that. All of humankind, both elect and reprobate, are biologically descended from Eve. Yet there are two separate seeds promised in Gen. 3:15. This introduces a spiritual element. As the serpent was not merely physical but also the habitation of Satan, even so a large portion of mankind would be created in his likeness. They were to appear biologically as humans--but spiritually they would be snakes: not human but devil. They would all be the devil’s children, created in an iniquity that is beyond redemption. Since God purposed from eternity to create them for the sole purpose of glorifying himself in their damnation, there would be no capability of righteousness in them.