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GRANTM
11-16-01, 07:01 PM
Right Right. We can argue about Time in another thread and how it effects God or how God effects it. This thread is about evolution

A request by VWV

My first rebuttal and critiques to JEP from the evolution thread
for Inital statements please refer back to to the evolution forum


Hi Jep: Have a Great Thanksging day Nothing I love more than a good theoretical debate, Save for.. but thats for a completely different Forum.

{ME: *BUZZER* Wrong--sorry. Time is the movement of matter in relationship to other matter. this would exist whether man did or not. For example the rotation of the earth around the sun is time. Can we measure this time progression? Yes, of course. With nothing more complicated than a sun dial.}

Ergo Time connot be a constant. Iit is mankinds wants to measure this. it is irrelevant to god. Mankinds desire to finite
the universe and categorize everything that time measure exists . Mankinds desire for more order and complacency in life
developed the wants for more refined measurement.


But the major problem with time still exists how can you measure something that is a Variable

How accurate would our watches be say on mars they would all have to be recalibrated to martian standards,

you might counter that a second is still a second but as atomic clocks have shown, you can say precisely what time it is the US mid- west and what time it is precisely In London Eng.
But why then if you calibrate a precise instrument according to an atomic clock Take off and land in London there is a time loss.

Quote

{ ME: Matter is very dependent on space and could not exist without it. How could something exist if you had no height, width, or depth in which to place it? Nothing can exist without somewhere to exist.}

Only because our terms of reference deem it to be so, But lets assune that our terms of reference are absolute and correct.
The fact that matter can occupy the same space at the same time
at that point of junture the three dimensional universe within that microcosm is severly distorted.

Quote

{ME: Man’s four dimensions are height, width, depth and time. There are others, but not applicable to man in his environment.}


I definately agree with you about the possiblity of other dimensions but Disagree with you on the nomenclature of time being the fourth( please correct me if i have misinterpreted
your meaning.) we can manipulate all the other dimensions to fit our needs, we can theoretically send a person into the future limited only by our technology, but no teccnology can bring them back from it. Time is our calibration of events and therfore cannot be a dimension. as for the others not being applicable
it is only so if we let it be so.

Quote:
ME: Space is finite and there is no such thing as non-motion. Can you think of any examples in our real universe of non-motion? (other than us placing matter at 0 degrees Kelvin, of course).

Strongly disagree: space cannot be finite, space is not avoid
or emptyness but is full of particles seen, unseen , etc. If space was finite the three dimensional effect of compression of these
Particles would cause the universe to contract,


With your acknowledgemnt of 0d K you acknowledge non-motion therefore non-motion can exist.

Looking forward to your rebuttles


__________________
go in peace all things are great

Jeps second rebuttal
Junior Member

Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Mid-West USA
Posts: 31
“Ergo Time connot be a constant. Iit is mankinds wants to measure this. it is irrelevant to god.”

ME: I agree that time is irrelevant to God. The spirit world is not restrained by petty man’s fourth dimension. And yes, it is only organisms who wish to measure it. But not just man. My cat’s know fully well when the alarm is supposed to go off. My dog will go to meet the schools bus at the time it’s due. Animals seem to have a clock placed within them by the creator.


“Mankinds desire to finite the universe and categorize everything that time measure exists . Mankinds desire for more order and complacency in life developed the wants for more refined measurement.”

ME: Well, I’m afraid that the universe finited itself--Actually I guess God did, since He created it. Eternity is time measurement, and infinity is distance measurement. Our universe has a finite distance. In fact, the universe has boundaries that, through euclidian geometry, we can show is expanding into itself. Strange, but true. Therefore, if you could start at one edge of our universe and walk to the opposite side, you would have traversed it, yet you would be right back where you started from. In my humble opinion only God could have created something this weird.

“But the major problem with time still exists how can you measure something that is a Variable. How accurate would our watches be say on mars they would all have to be recalibrated to martian standards,”

ME: You bring up a very valid point. We would have to embrace Einstein’s theory of relativity to understand this. All things are relative depending on one’s perspective. Indeed, time would be different to a Martian than it would be to an Earthling.

“But why then if you calibrate a precise instrument according to an atomic clock Take off and land in London there is a time loss.”

ME: But in reality there is no time loss. It’s just man’s perspective of time changing, and when he travels he must change that perspective. Since time is the movement of matter, and we are in a different position on one of the entities moving, then yes, we would view time differently in London. Yet, when I call my wife at home, time is still the same there.

“I definately agree with you about the possiblity of other dimensions but Disagree with you on the nomenclature of time being the fourth( please correct me if i have misinterpreted your meaning.)”

ME: No, I don’t think you misunderstand my position. Let me see if I can show you how time works in reality concerning dimensions. I’m going to construct for you a three dimensional map of our solar system using planets tied together with wire as many middle school students use in their science fair projects. I’m going to then enclose this structure in a cage of Plexiglas from which you can make measurements from boundary to boundary. I bring this to your home and leave it with you. Then I call you at 8:00 the next morning and ask you to plot the position of the sun on your map so I can see where it’s at in relation to the other planets. I then arrive at 4:00 that afternoon to see where the sun is at.

ME: But this is not accuracy. Because the sun is in a different position at 4:00 than where it was when you plotted it at 8:00 that morning. Wow....You are going to have to use four calculations to show me this. These might be: 10” of height, 12” of depth, 16” of width at 8:00 EST. Now I can find the sun and we encounter all four dimensions.

“If space was finite the three dimensional effect of compression of these
Particles would cause the universe to contract,”

ME: No, that would only be caused by a change in density of the universe. Infinity is a measure of distance. Not density. And I see you gave me no examples of non-motion.


__________________
Peace on earth and good will to all men is not just for Christmas. Peace, Jep
11-16-2001 04:07 PM

GRANTM
11-16-01, 08:44 PM
Hi Jep Hope you do not mind if I moved our time disscussion here.

Quote:

{The spirit world is not restrained by petty man’s fourth dimension}

for the sake of argument which shall become clear can we just for now agree to call the 4th dimension this rather than time?

Quote:
{it is only organisms who wish to measure it. But not just man. My cat’s know fully well when the alarm is supposed to go off. My dog will go to meet the schools bus at the time it’s due. Animals seem to have a clock placed within them by the creator. }

I agree
There are those who would argue that this tpe of behavior is a learned response amongst pets, Pavlovian if you will
i'll counter that right now with migrating birds Whales, etc.
and even i'll go further, that some plants have the ability.
which gives the indication that God is a force that travels in all life forms.

Quote:
{Well, I’m afraid that the universe finited itself--Actually I guess God did, since He created it. Eternity is time measurement, and infinity is distance measurement. Our universe has a finite distance. In fact, the universe has boundaries that, through euclidian geometry, we can show is expanding into itself. Strange, but true. Therefore, if you could start at one edge of our universe and walk to the opposite side, you would have traversed it, yet you would be right back where you started from. In my humble opinion only God could have created something this weird.}

are you suggesting that the universe is finite but its boundaries are the Infinity amd Eternity measurements? definately not weird but magical. I must ponder this more.

Quote:

{But in reality there is no time loss. It’s just man’s perspective of time changing, and when he travels he must change that perspective. Since time is the movement of matter, and we are in a different position on one of the entities moving, then yes, we would view time differently in London. Yet, when I call my wife at home, time is still the same there.}

Please consider this, remember the old 331/3 rpm records
the outside edge of the record travels much further than than that the spot at the spindle hole but arrives back at its point
of origion at the same time as the outsde edge time is the same but the reality is the ouside edges speed is x times faster
reletive time hasn't changed when you landed in London but your age has by frantions of seconds.

I guess what i'm trying to say that if you were to take the same
flight to London but via the andromeda constalation at the rate of speed of light your arrival in london would still be the same adjusted time in the Mid-west as they are the constants. but your age versus your wifes would be another thing.

Quote"
{No, I don’t think you misunderstand my position. Let me see if I can show you how time works in reality concerning dimensions. I’m going to construct for you a three dimensional map of our solar system using planets tied together with wire as many middle school students use in their science fair projects. I’m going to then enclose this structure in a cage of Plexiglas from which you can make measurements from boundary to boundary. I bring this to your home and leave it with you. Then I call you at 8:00 the next morning and ask you to plot the position of the sun on your map so I can see where it’s at in relation to the other planets. I then arrive at 4:00 that afternoon to see where the sun is at.

ME: But this is not accuracy. Because the sun is in a different position at 4:00 than where it was when you plotted it at 8:00 that morning. Wow....You are going to have to use four calculations to show me this. These might be: 10” of height, 12” of depth, 16” of width at 8:00 EST. Now I can find the sun and we encounter all four dimensions.}


Good points even when you consider that within your encloser it
is highyly probable that the sun itsely is rotating around another sun. but I still don't think that the number of calculations it takes to accurately position an object qualifies it as another dimension
it basically still is LxWxH

Quote:

{No, that would only be caused by a change in density of the universe. Infinity is a measure of distance. Not density. And I see you gave me no examples of non-motion.}

as this is so closely tied into the boudaries of the universe I will
leave this quote open for now.

as for the examples of of non-motion 0 degrees Kelvin was already given by you.

VwV
11-17-01, 04:57 AM
To throw in my two cents worth...

I don't think you can bound gods by time, because time is merely the creation of the mortal human. When God created this world, he also created time, prior to the creation there was no time, because God is not in time, he is outside of time. So... Once upon a time, there was a time that there was no time. Think about that one.

For God to exist, he has to be self existing and not bound to any constraints, otherwise we can't consider him Omni- (fell in the word). So, God can not be bound by time, so before the creation there was no time. So God is outside of time. My little thought process, it might be flawed.

Absolute Zero is an interesting concept. I wonder what would happen if we could ever actually reach it.

VwV
11-17-01, 05:05 AM
Explaination of Absolute Zero:

There are three temperature scales. Most people are familiar with either the Fahrenheit or the Celsius scales, with temperatures measured in degrees Fahrenheit (º F) or degrees Celsius (º C) respectively. On the Fahrenheit scale, water freezes at a temperature of 32º Fahrenheit and boils at 212º F. Absolute zero on this scale is not at 0º Fahrenheit, but rather at -459º Fahrenheit. The Celsius scale sets the freezing point of water at 0º Celsius and the boiling point at 100º Celsius. On the Celsius scale, absolute zero corresponds to a temperature of -273º Celsius.

Scientists - especially those who study what happens to things when they become very, very cold - commonly use the Kelvin scale, with temperatures measured in Kelvin (K). This scale uses the same temperature steps as the Celsius scale, but is shifted downward. On this scale, water freezes at 273 K and boils at 373 K. Only on the Kelvin temperature scale does absolute zero actually fall at 0 K.

Fahrenheit
Water Boils: 212
Water Freezes: 32
Absolute Zero: -459

Celsius
Water Boils: 100
Water Freezes: 0
Absolute Zero: -273

Kelvin
Water Boils: 373
Water Freezes: 273
Absolute Zero: 0

Jep
11-17-01, 07:30 AM
“Hi Jep Hope you do not mind if I moved our time disscussion here.”

ME: Nope. Don’t mind at all. Probably the best way to handle it.

“for the sake of argument which shall become clear can we just for now agree to call the 4th dimension this rather than time?”

ME: Are you wanting to call the spirit world another dimension of this universe? You can if you wish. But let me explain to you why I believe the spirit world--eternity--is not of our universe at all. Nothing in this universe could have pre-existed the big bang. The reason is that all that is in this universe, time, the three spatial dimensions, the laws of physics, quantum mechanics, etc., were created via the big bang. Before the big bang there was absolutely nothing in this universe. There was no time in which anything could exist, there were no spatial dimensions in which to put anything to exist. NOTHING existed in this universe. Therefore whatever created our universe came from outside the universe. I believe the creator came from another time-less universe called eternity. BTW, the next time you encounter a non-believer on the Net who wishes to argue creationism with you, I’ve never yet seen one get past this argument. :)

“I agree There are those who would argue that this tpe of behavior is a learned response amongst pets, Pavlovian if you will
I'll counter that right now with migrating birds Whales, etc.
and even i'll go further, that some plants have the ability.
which gives the indication that God is a force that travels in all life forms.”

ME: This could be simple Pavlovian reinforcement, I’m not sure. But we’ve all heard the story about the rare bird the researcher ran across in Europe and brought back to the US for study. The bird got loose, and a few weeks later it was found back in Europe in the very same tree from which he captured it. Strange. I think the migration factor you mention above is also some kind of built in programming.

“are you suggesting that the universe is finite but its boundaries are the Infinity amd Eternity measurements? definately not weird but magical. I must ponder this more.”

ME: Well, I think that eternity is time, yet it is time-less with no beginning or end. Infinity is distance, yet it can have a beginning, just no end. I think I read you’re a teacher in your profile. If we begin to calculate pi on the blackboard, this intangible infinitely has a beginning on our blackboard, yet we can just keep laying blackboard after blackboard over a distance through infinity and never reach the end of the number we are calculating. Yet, one could not really do this in our universe because our universe has boundaries, and we would soon reach that boundary, only to end up where we started at. Our universe is finite.

“Please consider this, remember the old 331/3 rpm records”

ME: LOL...Barely. I tried to explain what a record was to my teen-ager a few weeks back and he just laughed at me.

“the outside edge of the record travels much further than than that the spot at the spindle hole but arrives back at its point of origion at the same time as the outsde edge time is the same but the reality is the ouside edges speed is x times faster
reletive time hasn't changed when you landed in London but your age has by frantions of seconds.”

ME: Trying to get heavy on me, ’eh? :) You’re quite right, of course. I will have to admit that I never really thought of this. Einstein showed that the faster one travels, the slower his individual clock moves. Therefore when one arrives in London he will be just a hair younger than his wife back home. This is very true, and considering this I would have to admit that time is much more than a change in perception in this case. But not if the guy goes to Europe in a row boat.

Jep
11-17-01, 07:53 AM
VwV,

“When God created this world, he also created time, prior to the creation there was no time, because God is not in time, he is outside of time. So... Once upon a time, there was a time that there was no time. Think about that one.”

ME: I have often thought about this one. Since there is no time before the big bang, then there is no such thing as “before” the big bang from the perspective of man. This scientific fact should serve to reinforce the faith of the believer. Whatever created this universe came from outside this universe. Even if one considers Stephen Hawking’s (and others) musings that our universe may have began with the explosion of a singularity within the black hole of another universe, we then can ask Hawking, ok, then what created THAT universe, and so on and so on all the way back to the very first universe. The fact is that one must admit at some point, that whatever created our universe was not physical, but supernatural.

“For God to exist, he has to be self existing and not bound to any constraints, otherwise we can't consider him Omni- (fell in the word). So, God can not be bound by time, so before the creation there was no time. So God is outside of time. My little thought process, it might be flawed.”

ME: Your thought process is not flawed at all. It’s dead accurate. I often argue cause and effect with non-believers. Nothing can pre-exist itself to provide its own cause, and nothing can exist without something to cause that existence. When I posit that something caused the universe, yet there could be nothing physical predating the big bang to cause it because all that is physical was produced in the big bang, invariably someone will ask me, “Then what caused God?” My answer, nothing because since God lives in time-less eternity there is no such thing called “before” God. Even if there were no such thing as a time-less eternity, since there is no “before” the big bang, then God did not exist from man’s perspective before the big bang. The question becomes moot and nonsensical and something beyond human conception.

GRANTM
11-18-01, 03:16 PM
Greetings Jep:


"Quote"
Are you wanting to call the spirit world another dimension of this universe? You can if you wish. But let me explain to you why I believe the spirit world--eternity--is not of our universe at all. }

Yes, I do at least, Please consider, Light, in reality we cannot
see it it travels too fast for the human to discern, we see the effects of light or lack there in, but we know it is there.
obects in that light cast a showdow, or a reduction of the light
intensity. Now for the spirit dimension, I believe that our dimension, at intervals cast that shawdow on the spirit dimension. and when that occurs, we can deduce the the spirit
world exists. Many religions, Shintoism, Austrailian Aborignal, as examples believe that this occurs at specic times of the year.
some independents believe that is what we percieve as "ghosts" as our mind having no terms of reference or training for interpreting this phenom.

Quote:

{The reason is that all that is in this universe, time, the three spatial dimensions, the laws of physics, quantum mechanics, etc., were created via the big bang. Before the big bang there was absolutely nothing in this universe. There was no time in which anything could exist, there were no spatial dimensions in which to put anything to exist. NOTHING existed in this universe. Therefore whatever created our universe came from outside the universe. }


If we change your word Universe to my word Dimension we are in Total Agreement,

Quote:
{Therefore whatever created our universe came from outside the universe. I believe the creator came from another time-less universe called eternity. BTW, the next time you encounter a non-believer on the Net who wishes to argue creationism with you, I’ve never yet seen one get past this argument.}


Okay I'll bite, if again we can change your word from universe to dimension.

Creationism theory: "God, lets try an experiment , what would occur if we created a dimension that had L H W " he did "and saw that it was good' But we better now set some ground rules on this."

Big Bang theory: In the spirit world something occurs that creates a distortion in the fabric of the spirit demsion , thus creating L W H this would cause an upheaval of such an enormous magnitude of energy build up as to create the Big Bang
explosion.

If it were only that simple.

mind you

Quote:

{ME: Well, I think that eternity is time, yet it is time-less with no beginning or end. Infinity is distance, yet it can have a beginning, just no end}

this concept makes perfect sense, in either of the two scenarios
just mentioned. It would be like running down the hall toward the wall at end of a hall, only to realize that l you will never reach the wall because it to is reacting to your movements. But not only the wall , every reference point is interreacting as well,
ergo you either never moved, but there is motion, you arrived back at the beggining. Interesting.