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Fledge
11-30-01, 09:49 AM
Just curious of everybody's opinions...

What, if any, is the difference of the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit and the "infilling" of the Holy Spirit.

When does either/or/both of them occur, and what happens when it does happen?

HIS
11-30-01, 02:12 PM
Excellent questions Fledge…

Biblical Terminology

The Book of Acts describes the baptism of the Spirit in many ways: “filled with the Holy Ghost” (2:4); “the promise of the Holy Ghost” (2:33); “the gift of the Holy Ghost” (2:38); “the Holy Ghost fell on all them” (10:44); “poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost” (10:45); “received the Holy Ghost” (10:47); and “the Holy Ghost came on them” (19:6). The epistles explain that the Holy Spirit dwells in us (Romans 8:9). All these phrases simply identify the same New Testament experience in different ways. When empty human vessels are baptized in the Spirit, they are filled with the Spirit. When God pours out His Spirit on people, the Spirit comes on them, they receive the Spirit, and they are filled with the Spirit. When God gives the Spirit, He fulfills His promise and men receive the Spirit.

Some descriptions compare the Holy Spirit to water, and Jesus described the Spirit as living water that would quench spiritual thirst (John 4:14; 7:38). However, the Holy Spirit is not actually a fluid but is God Himself. The Bible also associates the Spirit with fire (Matthew 3:11) and wind (John 3:8), but the Spirit is not literally fire, wind, or water.

Filled with the Spirit

This phrase appears in Acts as the equivalent of “baptized with the Holy Ghost” with both describing the initial experience of receiving the Spirit of God to dwell in one’s life.

Some time after Pentecost a number of Spirit-baptized believers came together for a prayer meeting and were “filled with the Holy Ghost” (Acts 4:31). God met with these believers in a mighty way and renewed their original experience. When Peter spoke to the Jewish religious council he was “filled with the Holy Ghost” (Acts 4:8). Paul, “filled with the Holy Ghost,” prophesied that the sorcerer Barjesus would be blind for a time (Acts 13:9). From these instances we see that filled may mean a special, momentary endowment of power to one who has already been baptized in the Spirit. Today, many speak of this endowment as being anointed by the Spirit. Other verses use the term “filled” to describe the continual dwelling of the Spirit in one who has been baptized in the Spirit. The seven men chosen to assist the apostles were “full of the Holy Ghost” (Acts 6:3, 5).

Paul exhorted the Ephesian church to “be filled with the Spirit” (Ephesians 5:18). The latter verse is an exhortation to Spirit-baptized believers to let the Spirit continually control them. In this sense, to be “filled with the Spirit” is basically the same as to “walk after the Spirit” (Romans 8:4), meaning to receive daily guidance and power from the Spirit. Even when a backslider repents, he is not “baptized” with the Spirit again, but refilled.

Note also: Due to the backslider’s faithlessness and disobedience, he is disinherited, but he is not “unborn.”

The historic fact of his regeneration and justification is still a reality. When he repents he does not need to be “born again” another time. He does not experience a second baptism of water or a second baptism of the Spirit, for the original baptism of water and Spirit becomes effective again when he repents. Instead, he is simply restored to a justified status and entitled once again to inherit eternal life as an obedient son of God.

In sum, the phrase “filled with the Spirit” can convey any one of these three meanings in apostolic church usage: (1) the initial Spirit baptism; (2) the daily guidance and power that the Spirit grants to Spirit-baptized believers who continue to yield to Him, and (3) subsequent experiences that renew the initial experience. We must distinguish the baptism of the Spirit from all Old Testament experiences with God. The filling of the Spirit in Acts is different from the filling of the Spirit that John the Baptist had. It is a new experience for a new church.

Part of Salvation

Every description of the work of the Spirit in the initial experience of salvation can be equated with the baptism of the Spirit. The baptism of the Spirit is the same as the birth of the Spirit (John 3:5; Chapter 4.) The Spirit first begins to “dwell” in a person’s life when he is baptized with the Spirit. Any other alternative would not be logical.

For example, how can the Spirit dwell in a person if he has not received the Spirit, if he has not been filled with the Spirit, if the Spirit has not come upon him, or if the Spirit has not fallen upon him?

Grace and Peace to you!
HIS

Andrew
11-30-01, 08:17 PM
Just curious of everybody's opinions...
-----------------

Okay, since you asked for it :D I'll give my OWN understanding thus far...

when you say "indwelling", "infilling" of the Holy Spirit, to me there's no diff. its the same thing. BUT the terms (to me) mean something more than/beyond just being born again.

i cannot find anywhere in scripture where it says explicitly that we are filled automatically with the Holy Spirit at conversion. ie we automatically receive the indwelling or infilling of the Holy Spirit at born again time.

in fact, i find in Luke 11:11 that we ASK for the third person of the trinity. In acts we find that Philip (i think) had to ask Peter to come down to lay hands on blievers to receive the Holy Spirit. i also bear in mind that the Holy Spirit is a third PERSON of the Godhead. ie He's someone we ought to know, besides Jesus and God. it's just that whenever I read Acts, i find that the infilling of the Holy Spirit is really a separate event, not one and the same with conversion, except in Cornelius' case.

so, to me, generally speaking, a believer who' already a believer, has to ASK/invite for the infilling of the Holy Spirit. for the third Person to come in and dwell and to lead and to empower. so many of us ask why some Christians call themselves Christians yet live like that. my answer is that one of the main answers is that there's a missing link, the Holy Spirit's indwelling.

next question: how do you know He's come in? ok this is the part where most people get upset. my answer is tongues. reason? i just want to follow the pattern in Acts. that's my own conviction. beyond this sign, there's much change and victory in the believers life.

my opinion as asked for, so dont shoot me for it!:D

btw: am not Pentecostal, never was.

Fledge
12-01-01, 12:37 AM
I in no way intend this to be a debate thread or a heated discussion thread. I was looking for opinions, and everybody's is different. Well, maybe not EVERYBODY'S...but enough. You know what I mean.

So hey, I may disagree with your your opinion, and I may not. But just getting the opinions is all I was wanting.

I'll start another thread at another time where we can serious discuss, challenge each other. :)

I have my opinion as to "infilling"/"indwelling"...but that comes later as I was looking for OTHER thoughts. ;)

Steven
12-01-01, 09:23 PM
Hi Andrew.


Andrew romans 9:8 or was it 8:9 hmmm.

You are not in the flesh,but in the spirit,if so the spirit of God dwell in you,now if any man hath not the spirit of Christ he is none of his.

This verse definately says that one is immediately baptised in the spirit of God upon inviting him in.

According as he hath chosen us in Christ...

Behold I stand at the door and knock,if any man will hear and open unto me,I will come in.....

In short salvation is having the spirit of Christ in you.

Now as for tongues etc... being evidence of having the holy spirit in you,the bible says otherwise.

Hope is the evidence of things not seen.


That hope is the faith that God gives us,it is more than just human hope,it is assurance,the spirit of God telling us that we are his and that he will live up to all he has told us.


Steven

Andrew
12-02-01, 09:39 AM
Steven,

I'm aware of the verses you quoted, but they still do not state explicity that the Holy Spirit comes in automatically at the point of conversion. the main words here are explicitly/directly and automatically.

Yes one may infer strongly from the 2 verses and i'm not denying that. I basically believe that too for the longest time, but i'm beginning to discover that there cld be something more.

i just know that what the 120 experienced in the upper room in Acts 2 is not simply the born again experience but something beyond that that is available to all believers.

Also, lets say that according to the early church in Acts, the norm was to repent and believe, then receive the Holy Ghost as a seal with tongues as the sign, either thru the laying of hands or otherwise. That's the pattern i keep seeing when I read Acts. Let's say that was the norm. lets say it was taken for granted/understood at that time that that's what should happen to all new converts.- repent, then receive the Holy Spirit - generally 2 sep things

Then, since Romans was written after Acts, it can be argued that Paul already assumes that believers wld have the Holy Ghost with tongues as a sign (that being the norm/pattern in Acts, that being the instructions given then). so, when he writes "without th Spirit of Christ...none of his" it cld well mean that unless you have the Holy Spirit in you with tongues as a sign, you dont belong to Christ. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? Can you see now why some Christians (like True Jesus church) believe that?

I'm not sayind i buy that totally, but i can see why they say that and where they are coming from. I have had two friends who witnessed that to me a long time ago, and i thot they were nuts, but now i can appreciate why they believe that.

as to whether tongues is the sign or not, i'll just say
1. I'll stick with the pattern in Acts. that's my personal yardstick so to speak.
2. All who are open to it can receive.

Steven
12-02-01, 09:38 PM
Hi Andrew

The verse in question explicitly says that if the spirit of God is not in you,you are not one of his,meaning you have not been born again,you are not saved,you have never known the father.


What the 120 experienced in the upper room was being born again,it was the comforter,the holy ghost,the spirit of God.Peter speaking boldly,understanding of the scriptures,heretofore they had not understood the scriptures,and they certainly hadnt been bold enough to preach Gods word openly.



Being born again,is being born of God spiritually,meaning recieving his spirit,the holy spirit.


Tongues were never for a sign to the church,never served for the church,their strict and total purpose was for a sign to the jews,isaiah prophesied that God would speak to the jews with people of other tongues and stammering lips,and for all this they would not believe him.that is why paul says it is for a sign to the unbelieving ,its to the unbelieving jew that the spiritual kingdom was come,for the jews required a sign,they always did and always will.The church lives by faith,not by sight,not requiring a sigmn,i was found of them that sought me not.

Furthermore,the tongues of todaty bear no resemblence to those described in scripture,then everyman heard in his own laguage,so it was either each man getting up and speaking a foreign language,or like an international interpreter speaking to all through one man,i really believe it is the former,that they one at a time got up and addressed a different language.


Let me ask you,if a preacher came to church speaking chinese would greeks understand,no they wouldnt so he better have an interpreter if greeks are there,otherwise if they dont understand what is being said they will recieve no blessing from it,yet it is the holy spirit giving the message through the man speaking chinese.


Steven

HIS
12-03-01, 02:10 AM
Originally posted by Andrew
lets say that according to the early church in Acts, the norm was to repent and believe, then receive the Holy Ghost as a seal with tongues as the sign, either thru the laying of hands or otherwise. That's the pattern i keep seeing when I read Acts. Let's say that was the norm. lets say it was taken for granted/understood at that time that that's what should happen to all new converts.- repent, then receive the Holy Spirit - generally 2 step things..."

Andrew...I like your statement above. I am very impressed by your insight (throughout your post) and respect it very much, BUT aren't you forgetting a step in this statement above?

Biblical Example #1:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, AND be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Note: Yes...We know they believed Peter and his message, because we read in verse 37 that they ask, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

So...How many steps?

1) Believe
2) Repent
3) Be Baptized (In Jesus name)
4) Receive the Holy Ghost...

************

Biblical Example #2:

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Question: Step #1 (believe) covered?

Answer: "when they believed..." (YES)

Question: Step #2 (repentance) covered?

Answer: Not specifically stated, but obvious by their obedience to step #3 (see below).

Question: Step #3 (baptism in the name of Jesus Christ) covered?

Answer: "and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized..."

Question: DOES THE BIBLE TEACH that you "automatically" receive the Holy Ghost upon "believing" or "accepting Christ"?

Answer: See next three verses for answer from God instead of answer from man...

Acts 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Note: As you can see from above, the Scripture does not teach that you automatically receive the Holy Ghost when believing or accepting Christ (which is not even a biblical term).

**************

Example #3:

Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band...

Acts 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always.

Question: Step #1 (believe) covered?

Answer: "A devout man, and one that feared God..."

Question: Step #2 (repentance) covered?

Answer: The verse above should be obvious. But, just in case you feel I might be reading into the Scripture, you could read Peter's statement when describing to others his experience and visit with Cornelius in chapter 11:

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted REPENTANCE unto life.

Note: This next verse provides proof that one can receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost prior to water baptism in Jesus name.

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Question: How did they know they received the Holy Ghost?

Answer: Next verse...

Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Question: Does this mean we can skip any steps or "commandments" that are, as Luke states: "pertaining to the Kingdom of God"?

Answer: Let's see how Peter feels about skipping any steps...

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Summary: Must still be relative to the Kingdom of God.

**************

So relative, that some needed to be re-baptized...

Biblical Example #4:

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

Question: Step #1 (believed) covered?

Answer: Paul seemed to assume so...

Question: Step #2 (repentance) covered?

Answer: Again, must have been assumed by Paul or he would not have asked if they had received the Holy Ghost.

Question: Step #2 (water baptism) or #3 (spirit baptism) covered?

Answer: Let's read on:

"And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost."

Note: By their statement above, Paul immediately know something must be wrong. Could it be...Their water baptism?

Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized?

Their response: "And they said, Unto John's baptism."

Paul's reply: That's it! You need to be re-baptized! Jesus has commanded baptism in HIS name...You have only been baptized unto John and his baptism:

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Question: Did they obey step #2?

Answer: See next verse...

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Question: Did they receive step #3?

Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

**************

Andrew...I only used the statements step #1, #2, etc. because you used these expressions. I don't necessarily like to talk about salvation in terms of exact order of steps. This is why I made the point regarding Acts 10 and how that Cornelius and those with him actually received the Holy Ghost prior to being baptized in water in the name of Jesus. Clearly one can receive God's Gift of the Holy Ghost prior to water baptism. But, clearly...It is also "commanded" that they follow through and get baptized in water according to the commandement of the Lord as something that is "pertaining to the Kingdom of God."

Note: One MUST believe and have or express some type of repentance before water baptism is valid and prior to God baptizing them with His Spirit...

I have only given you all of these examples to show you that you have missed stating one essential element (step) that you should have noticed in the "pattern" of the ACTionS of the Apostles.

May God bless your continued efforts to put His word first...

Andrew
12-04-01, 12:21 AM
Steven,
-------------
Furthermore,the tongues of todaty bear no resemblence to those described in scripture
--------------
you cant really verify that unless you were there at that time.
firstly, there are thousands of langs in the world, no one can recognise all of them (at most 10?) . how do you know the tongue you heard does not belong to some tribe somewhere?

secondly, there are many instances today in which the tongue was recognised by a person who had learned the lang. (see for eg John Wimber's account i put in the skeptology section under the thread "Converted by the power of God...")

the evidence that this gift is still for today is just too overwhleming.

Andrew
12-04-01, 03:37 AM
HIS,

Thank you for your comprehensive answer. Yes I did seem to "miss out" on water baptism but it wasnt intentional. it's just that the original focus here was the Spirit's infilling.

I agree that water baptism is very important and we are commanded to do so by our Lord. I was infant baptised but recently (at age 33) got water baptised by immersion, despite my former church telling me that i cld not do it. so you can see i take it seriously.

but i think where we disagree (we had this dicussion not long ago i think) is that i don't consider water baptism as necessary for salvation. but i do not want to go into that again.

--------------
Note: As you can see from above, the Scripture does not teach that you automatically receive the Holy Ghost when believing or accepting Christ (which is not even a biblical term).
--------------
yes, i'm glad you can see that too. that's what i was trying to point out. but we also know that the two events can take place simultaneously, as in Cornelius' case. again, i find that in Acts, and Luke 11:11, the Holy Spirit must be "asked for, invited in".

my current belief is still this: when we are born again, our human spirit is made alive/recreated. The Holy Spirit comes in but in a limited measure. I think of him as being "resident". But when one is baptised in the Holy Spirit as with the 120, He comes in a fuller measure and becomes "president" in your life. Others have explained it as a well/spring of water vs rivers water, or former rain vs latter rain.

I tend to be moving towards the belief that there isnt the limited-then-fuller argument, but simply either you have the Holy Spirit in you or you dont. The only problem this creates is the verses: "those who who not have the Spirit of Christ are none of his", and "behold i stand at the door and knock...." I believe we already belong to Him at born again time. Yet, perhaps these 2 verses refer to receiving Jesus (Spirit of Christ), not so much the Third Person. anyway just my thots.

This is by no means a water-tight argument but it's the best i can offer so far.

God bless

HIS
12-04-01, 05:03 AM
Originally posted by Andrew
Yes I did seem to "miss out" on water baptism but it wasnt intentional. it's just that the original focus here was the Spirit's infilling.

Andrew...I do know and understand that you feel baptism is very important and I appreciate your support in this behalf. I have noticed from your past replies and postings that you take this commandment seriously.

There are other points I have not yet made regarding the name of Jesus and the significance of baptism in God's plan (through my extensive study of the Scripture). Perhaps we can discuss them at another time.

***********

I am happy that we both agree on the point that the Holy Ghost is not given automatically when first "believing." I assume that when you say one must "ask for or invite in" that they are not "begging" for this free gift (as some would seem to do in real life when ignorant of seeking after it). The condition of the heart is the most important factor for God when making the decision on whether to give it to anyone...

**********


I tend to be moving towards the belief that there isnt the limited-then-fuller argument, but simply either you have the Holy Spirit in you or you dont.
I would agree with this quote above...

**********


The only problem this creates is the verses: "those who who not have the Spirit of Christ are none of his", and "behold i stand at the door and knock...."

Would you not agree with me that just because someone has not received the Holy Ghost (which is the Spirit of God or "Spirit of Christ") that this does not mean God is not moving in their life or calling them to come "closer" to HIM?

A prime example is Cornelius (Acts 10). Was it not said that he was a devout man and just and feared God with all of his house? That he also prayed aways and gave much to those in need?

Yet, did he have the Spirit of God in him prior to his meeting with Peter?

Would you also agree with me that the Scripture certainly does not try to suggest that Cornelius had the Spirit of Christ but not the Holy Ghost?

In fact, the Scripture does not say there are two or more Spirits to God. God is only ONE Spirit according to the Scripture:

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Eph 4:4-5 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.


I believe we already belong to Him at born again time.

Andrew...The correct (Biblical) definition of being "born again" is that of being born of "water and Spirit." If one has already been born of these two elements then one naturally (already) belongs to HIM.


Yet, perhaps these 2 verses refer to receiving Jesus (Spirit of Christ), not so much the Third Person.

Again...God is not made up of two or more Spirits. If you see a verse in the Scripture that says this, please let me know.

Please note:

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

It is clear that the Apostle Paul uses the expression or phrases "Spirit of God" and "Spirit of Christ" interchangeably. In other words...When you say the Spirit of God, you should understand that this is the Spirit of (that was in) Christ. Likewise, when you speak to someone regarding the Spirit of Christ, you should understand that you are talking about the very Spirit of Almighty God.

Remember: God (who is SPIRIT) was in CHRIST (the man).

This is not only water-tight but bullet proof... :)

Take care my friend. Thanks again for your comments.

HIS

Steven
12-05-01, 08:57 PM
Hi Andrew
Me:
The tongues of today bear no resemblence to the biblical tongues

You: You cant really verify that you werent there...


Me: The scriptures verify that,I didnt need to be there.I fully and clearly explained to you just exactly what the scriptures said,if you want to know the truth go back and read my first post,because there the truth is found.

You: The evidence that the gift is still around is overwhelming..


Me: The scriptures state the gifts purpose,time and place,they also state that it ceased,the gift you see is from the devil,no ifs ands or buts,its a seducing spirit.

Once again,if you want the truth go back and read my first post.




Its unfortunate,but i think many in your shoes are so sucked in by the tongues experience that you dont want the truth,youve been duped by the devil into believing this gift and others are still being dispensed by God,but in reality they are now being dispensed by the devil himself.




Steven

Andrew
12-06-01, 02:01 AM
Steven,
-------------------
The scriptures state the gifts purpose,time and place,they also state that it ceased,the gift you see is from the devil,no ifs ands or buts,its a seducing spirit.

tongues experience that you dont want the truth,youve been duped by the devil into believing this gift and others are still being dispensed by God,but in reality they are now being dispensed by the devil himself.
---------------------

So my tongue speaking Pastor who has these gifts "from the devil", somehow gave up his lucrative career to serve Jesus with a passion, preaches Christ and Christ crucified 4 times on Sunday and twice in the week, has about 50 people giving their lives to Jesus a week, has thousands of people lining up for an hour just to get into church, loves his wife with a passion, has healed hopless cancer patients by the power of God, has God confirm his ministry with signs and wonders and blessings, has people hungering for more of Jesus and the Word? *LOL*

You are clearly the one duped by the devil. Cessationists who refuse the gifts of the Holy Spirit are missing out in these last days. And you just blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, attributing His works to the devil.

You can blaspheme the Holy Spirit all you want, as for me and my church, we'll just continue to bask in His power and gifts, and walk that victorious life!


;)

Andrew
12-06-01, 02:15 AM
Would you also agree with me that the Scripture certainly does not try to suggest that Cornelius had the Spirit of Christ but not the Holy Ghost?
----------------

Yes, there's only one Spirit. Spirit of Christ = Holy Spirit. I was just giving some thots.

------------------
Would you not agree with me that just because someone has not received the Holy Ghost (which is the Spirit of God or "Spirit of Christ") that this does not mean God is not moving in their life or calling them to come "closer" to HIM?
------------------

Are you refering to that "someone" who's a sinner or the believer?

If believer, then that means after saved (eg saying the sinner's prayer) he has yet to receive the Holy Ghost. Then that begs the question "How do I receive the Holy Spirit" and after that "How do I know I have the Holy Spirit?"

God bless

HIS
12-06-01, 03:56 AM
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven..."
Steven...If it came from heaven, don't you think you should be careful what you say about it?

Your speech sounds more like what you heard across the pulpit than honest (and open minded) review (from yourself) of the Scriptures.

Just freindly advice...I care about you,

HIS

HIS
12-06-01, 04:01 AM
Originally posted by Andrew
Are you refering to that "someone" who's a sinner or the believer?

If believer, then that means after saved (eg saying the sinner's prayer) he has yet to receive the Holy Ghost. Then that begs the question "How do I receive the Holy Spirit" and after that "How do I know I have the Holy Spirit?"
Andrew...I just read your posting and statement above. Sorry, I don't have time to respond now, but I will certainly try and reply by this weekend.

Thank you for your other comments!

Take care,
HIS

Steven
12-06-01, 09:25 PM
Hi Andrew


An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign.

and show signs and wonders insomuch that it were possible even the elect would be decieved.

2tim.4:20 but trophimus i have left at miletum sick.

It seems pauls gift of laying on hands for healing must have past at this time if he left a brother somewhere sick.


Ive already gone through the tongues thing with you,and you didnt even care to investigate if the things i said were true,if you had investigated you might well have found those things are true,so i will forbear speaking about the tongues thing.


Is it any wonder that the children of the devil appear as mninisters of righteousness(Christian preachers) for the devil himself appeareth as an angel of light.

luke 6:32 for if ye love them wich love you,what thank have you? for even sinners love those that love them.


Philipians 3:18 for many walk of whom i have told you often,and now tell you even weeping,that they are enemies of the cross of christ.


This is refering to so called christian preachers again.


Andrew as you are well aware there a plenty of scriptures in the bible that warn of false preachers,who are decieving and being decieved,if i was you i would ask God to reveal to you wether this man is of God or not,because the scriptures have to me already indicated he is not, many lost people love their wives and families,hordes of people talk in an unbiblical tongue thing,paul left his friend at rome sick,wich must mean his laying on of hands for healing gift had departed,many people hunger and thirst for men this way,people with lots of charisma do draw people unto themselves.It seems to me that you put more stock in what your pastor says than what the holy scriptures say,and thats ok for you,but there is a consequence to worshipping this man,its called eternal damnation,if I was you I would turn away from this man and unto God,for in him and him only lies salvation.

Steven

HIS
12-10-01, 12:49 AM
Hello Andrew...

Your statement:


"How do I receive the Holy Spirit" and after that "How do I know I have the Holy Spirit?"

My reply:

I believe you can receive it the same way they did in the Bible. Many talk themselves out of God’s promise by ignoring God’s Word; but, if you believe, you can and "shall receive." It is a simple principle taught by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Faith to receive (from Him) is all God is expecting from each and everyone one of us…

So, my answer to your first question is that if you follow the same teachings that are in the Scripture, you will not be disappointed.

The first place I see where someone explains how you receive it and how you know is by the Lord Himself when He was speaking to Nicodemus. After Jesus explained that a person must be born of water and of the Spirit, He made the following statement:

“The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” John 3:8

To me, this was stated in “parable” format. You must carefully consider what Jesus is describing in the “natural” to understand the “spiritual.” Jesus often explained spiritual truths by describing what you and I (everyone) sees and understands in the natural sense.

So, what is this verse saying?

Naturally, the wind blows wherever is desires or pleases…

NOTE: You HEAR a sound (wind blowing against things) but, you really cannot say exactly where it came from or where it (truly) is going next…

So is “everyone” who is born of the Spirit!

Conclusion: Unless your new birth experience of the “birth of the Spirit” agrees with this verse, you likely did not receive proper teachings about it and you likely have not yet received it.

Am I being fair with this statement?

The questions are: What does the wind and sound in this verse represent, AND how do they tie in to the birth of the Spirit that JESUS is speaking of to Nicodemus?

I will allow you to comment before I continue...

God bless,
HIS

HIS
12-10-01, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by Steven
An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign.

Please Note: True believers don't follow signs. Signs follow THEM.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues...

Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him.

Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will...

You are speaking to the wrong crowd...

I encourage you to exercise simple faith and believe on the Lord for all of His promises. It is a biblical principle and spiritual law of God that you can't receive, if you don't want to believe. Please reconsider you position on this matter and look to the teachings of Jesus Christ and His apostles. Don't rely on what is being taught in churches today.

2 Tim 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

With Christian Love,
HIS

mickey1
12-18-01, 06:12 PM
#1. To Andrew:

What the 120 experienced in that room is still being experienced here today. I personally have experienced this. I do not have any scripture quotes - however, I believe that people can be "IN" spirit. (yes, spirit - with a small "S"). I believe that each person has a spirit that they can use to contact the Spirit of God. When I am in spirit - I feel as I am sure those 120 did, overwhelming joy and love and peace. It cannot really be described only experienced. In my opinion the Indwelling of the Spirit happens when you are saved, and the infilling of the Spirit happens when you use your spirit to contact God.

#2. Speaking in Tongues...

I agree with quite a lot that STEVEN wrote. The need for speaking in tongues originated from the Tower of Bable. The reason that people needed the Holy Ghost was so that they could communicate with others. However, in the present there is less of a need for that. I believe that some people do, in earnest, speak in tongues. However I also believe that some of the time it is the Devil. All I know for sure is that I have never spoken in tongues, and I believe that if I were to, I would be afraid of what I was saying. In biblical times there were translators who could tell everyone what the person was saying, however now no one could tell me what I am saying. That would frighten me. Anyway, I have never spoken in tongues and I am saved. I cannot have my salvation taken away from me and I never again need to be baptised. I have been saved, the Lord will never leave me, nor forsake me.

mickey

Andrew
12-26-01, 08:19 PM
Sorry for my late replies, i have been away on holiday!

Mickey,
------------------
What the 120 experienced in that room is still being experienced here today.
------------------
So you believe tongues is still for today. Praise the Lord! BTW there's no need to be afraid of our heavenly language once you understand it and get all the bias and myths out of your mind/theology.


Steven,

Cessationism is heresy pure and simple. u can't explain the mainfestations so you simply blaspheme the Holy Spirit by attributing His work to the devil (granted there are counterfeits which logically presupposes there is the genuine). HIS has given a v good reply and i needn't say more.


HIS,

I think we've discussed b4 what born of water and the spirit means. I believe wholeheartedly here that "water" refers to the Word not water baptism, so i do not want to go into that again.

How do i know that i'm saved? Simple. By the inward witness. I just know that i know that i know that i know i'm saved. ie the Holy Spirit in me tells my spirit that I'm saved.

Ro 8:16* The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

How did I recieve the Holy Spirit? By asking (Luke 11:11). Then believing that I have received (Mark 11:23), i spoke out unintelligible words by faith. and i was soon speaking in tongues.

God bless

GRANTM
12-27-01, 11:43 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andrew
[B]Sorry for my late replies, i have been away on holiday!

HI Andrew: Hope You Had a great Vacation:

Your Arguments Make sense, (as I know you have stated)
if Indwelling and Infilling are one in the same.

But if they are Different, (as I feel) There are Holes, What I would like you to consider is this

Indwelling: That "sensor" within all of mankind to sense the "Spirit of God"

Infilling " the "Spirit of God" that flows through all of us The Cause if you will, That which the sensors pick-up

Freewill That which Interprets the Spirit of God.

I feel that we must spend more time on how we interpret The Infilling of our Indwelling, and the Kneejerk reaction that some of us have (all of us some of the time) and the interpretation of what the spirit has to say about our true needs and not confuse
them as to our earthly wants.

I feel that these are the "day to day" endevours of we mortals and our reactions, are what are to be Judged upon.

The Implications of Tongues, water, etc are only a Positive re-inforcement, of actions, Not as actions in themselves.
that means that each would have their own positive re-inforcement if necessary.

As a Born Again Christian (Yourself) vs Someone that feels
that religion is the "Politics of God"(Myself) but have a respect for one another, (us) I ask What You Think?

Debbiek
12-27-01, 06:03 PM
NOt sure but I would guess newbie knows right. Indwelling of the Holy Spirit occurs at conversion. There was scripture to back it up previously. Infilling probably refers to the "SUPERNATURAL MANIFESTATION OF GOD'S LOVE". Most people refer to it as"Baptism of the Holy Spirit" in error. The difference being that anyone can say they believe & be baptized with water. They don't have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them if their heart wasn't sincere. Once a heart is sincere, The Holy Spirit indwells in them. @@@@@@@@@@@@@ Furthermore, many charismatics experience a supernatural occurence sometimes including speaking in tongues, which they think is the first time the HOly Spirit dwelled within them. ONce they have had this supernatural experience they can then again more easily have the experience repeatedly. This supernatural experience is so mesmerizing that they think they wern't saved before & neither is anyone else who hasnt experienced it. Although some new believers recieve this experience at the time of conversion. The confusion occurs when a supernatural experience is assumed to be "baptism of the Holy Spirit", yet nothing Biblical descibes the experience. (Not the day of Pentecost when many gifts were recieved as later seen in the Bible, only tongues was evident at the time). I forget newbie's name, but indwelling occurs at heartfelt conversion, & infilling is probably the "manifestation of God's love" or "baptism of the Holy Spirit" or "your Spirit contacting God's spirit", whatever way you describe it. Infilling is a supernatural occurrence, whereas indwelling is at the moment of conversion, where you are compelled to change your life & put God first. Ps.. tongues is spoken by the people of God & satan causes the unsaved to speak in tongues also. So some are of God & some arn't. I have seen many other gifts mentioned in the Bible at work today, of God. .... Debbie

Andrew
12-28-01, 07:39 AM
Getting a bit confused with all the points raised.

Actually, my original "bone of contention" is that the Bible does not make it explicit that the Holy Spirit comes into the believer at the point of genuine conversion.

Of course, I was taught that and believed that, and still do to a big extent. And there are 2-3 verses that seem to indirectly support this doctrine.

But when I read Acts, I see a rather different picture. In the majority of cases the Holy Spirit was imparted by the laying on of hands. It was not understood to be an "automatic" thing. (And I dont buy the argument that it was different then.)

And the sign to "prove" to the Apostles that the Holy Spirit had indeed been imparted was tongues. That this IS the general pattern in Acts is undeniable. But what is being taught today by many churches (save the charismatics) is very different - ie its automatic.

I certainly dont have all the answers and am still learning. Also, God impressed this verse in my heart some time ago when I was trying to figure it all out:

“The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” John 3:8

ie I can't box in the Holy Spirit and his work in a neat, organised, linear doctrine.

God bless:rolleyes:

Debbiek
12-28-01, 11:50 AM
The confusion comes from the terminology assigned to the event. If a different terminolgy were used, I don't think there would be confusion for many years.The Bible clearly states repeatedly that a believer recieves the Holy Spirit at conversion. JUst because a believer later has a supernatural event occur, (which they have to call it "baptism of the Holy Spirit") does not mean that the Bible is wrong. The human can't change the BIble to match a misnamed event. Call the event the "love of God" & let the Bible stand. Acts 2:38-"change your hearts & lives & be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit". 1 corin 12:13- ..."but we were all baptized into one body through one Spirit" & Gal 3:27-"for as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ". Acts 5:32- "We saw all these things happen.The Holy Spirit, whom God has given to all who obey Him, also proves these things are true." I think we would all agree that the Holy Spirit does not leave someone once they have recieved Him, as long as they follow God. THe BIble states that we all have different gifts of the Holy Spirit which makes us good as a whole church. 1 cor. 12:7-"BUt the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal". 1 corin goes on to mention the gifts the Spirit can give us:administrations, operations, words of wisdom, knowledge, healing,miracles,prophecy,discernment,tongues, interpretation of tongues. Yes on the day of Pentecost when the apostles recieved the Holy Spirit, it became evident that some of them also recieved the gift if tongues. It was the most necessary gift at the time in order to preach to the foreigners. (acts 2:4-12). As Acts continues, you see that they had actually recieved the gift of prophecy, miracles. etc all of the gifts. I see no Biblical evidence that tongues is proof of The Holy Spirit in you any more than discernment is proof. Any gift should be proof. IN fact, acts 4:31 shows that they were "filled" with the Holy Spirit. thEY DID NOT SPEAK IN TONGUES, NO ONE LAID HANDS ON THEM.
IT DOES NOT SAY"THEY WERE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT", anywhere that I know of. They were" filled "with the Holy Spirit after recieving the Holy Spirit previously. There is only one place in the BIble that I know of where hands were laid on people in order for them to recieve the Holy SPirit: The significance in acts 8:17 is that the Samaritans(Gentiles) waited for Peter & John,(Jews). (Jesus- Acts 1:8- ..."ye shall be witnesses unto me... in Samaria...". ) Peter & JOhn had the gift of laying on of hands, & Phillip had the gifts of miracles & teaching. & casting out demons. There are many lessons to be learned in that one chapter, but the samaritans did not speak in tongues when they recieved the Holy Spirit. **** Therefore, we all recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit at conversion, per the Bible. On a rare occasion, some have had to have hands layed on them to recieve the Holy Spirit. Once you recieve the Holy Spirit, you can repeatedly be "filled "with the Holy Spirit at different times. When you recieve the Holy Spirit at conversion, you also can recieve any of the gifts mentioned in the Bible. Tongues & miracles are more obvious gifts than wisdom, knowledge, etc. In Jesus' name, Debbie

GRANTM
12-28-01, 12:21 PM
Greetings Andrew: Hope you have continued joy and prosperity
in the New Year.

Quote;
{Actually, my original "bone of contention" is that the Bible does not make it explicit that the Holy Spirit comes into the believer at the point of genuine conversion.
Of course, I was taught that and believed that, and still do to a big extent. And there are 2-3 verses that seem to indirectly support this doctrine.
But when I read Acts, I see a rather different picture. In the majority of cases the Holy Spirit was imparted by the laying on of hands. It was not understood to be an "automatic" thing. (And I dont buy the argument that it was different then.}

In support of my concept, and I agree that it was NOT different then for acts of conversion. What is different today is that currently peoples are baptized earlier or dependant upon which
Practice, within christianity you participate in, ie Catholic, Anglican, etc. results in the utilization of the"sensor" and through Sunday School you achieve more practice. For the Born again Christian boy would this be a wake up call for it as once you made up your mind or re established in your mind that God exists. the expectation would be wonderous gift as now not only believe but now you Know how to begin to interprete the spirit. but I am sure you agree you knew that the spirit was there before, and Gods cause needed you thats why you were born again.


Quote:
{And the sign to "prove" to the Apostles that the Holy Spirit had indeed been imparted was tongues. That this IS the general pattern in Acts is undeniable. But what is being taught today by many churches (save the charismatics) is very different - ie its automatic.}

Yep Got to agree there, but churches all of them, try to play politics with this fundamental Question.

Quote:
{I certainly dont have all the answers and am still learning. Also, God impressed this verse in my heart some time ago when I was trying to figure it all out:
“The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” John 3:8 }

The key here Is the phrase "born of the Soirit" However I interpret this as what a great journey is instore for us.

Quote:
{ie I can't box in the Holy Spirit and his work in a neat, organised, linear doctrine.}

Woe is mankind when it becomes a linear doctrine.
For Mankind is a group of Individuals and to follow linear doctrine
is to give up our free will and therefore that which makes us a potential great specie our individuality.

Andrew
12-29-01, 09:47 AM
Dear DebbieK,

-----------
The confusion comes from the terminology assigned to the event.
-----------
Agreed. Sometimes there's argument becos ppl actually have different definitions of the same terms.

-------------
The Bible clearly states repeatedly that a believer recieves the Holy Spirit at conversion.
--------------
I wld have to disagree. Show me many verses that say something like "The moment you put your faith in Jesus Christ...the Holy Spirit enters/indwells/fills your body...." You won't find it.

------------
JUst because a believer later has a supernatural event occur, (which they have to call it "baptism of the Holy Spirit") does not mean that the Bible is wrong. The human can't change the BIble to match a misnamed event.
-------------
No one is saying that the Bible is wrong. And Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a proper term. Jesus did say that He will baptise with fire and the Spirit. And that's what the 120 received. And that's what many who believe are still receiving today.

------------
I see no Biblical evidence that tongues is proof of The Holy Spirit
-------------
Yes, the Bible does not say that tongues is THE proof. But it is the pattern in the early church. Even if the Bible does not record a grp speaking in tongues when the receive the Holy Spirit, it need not mean that they didint speak in tongues, eg Paul's case when his eyes were opened and he was filled with the Spirit. Also, why can't it be that it became so understood that recording down that part was no longer important.

---------
It was the most necessary gift at the time in order to preach to the foreigners
---------
So, we or missionaries today dont have foreigners to preach to?

God bless

:)

HIS
01-01-02, 09:15 PM
The Bible clearly states repeatedly that a believer recieves the Holy Spirit at conversion.
Actually, I don’t have a problem with this statement above from Debbiek, as long as you put it in context with the Scripture:

For example:

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

This passage above speaks of the need for repentance and conversion in order to receive the remission of sins and then speaks of a “refreshing” from the presence of the Lord. If you continue to read past verse 19 you should be convinced that Peter is referring to the Spirit of God / Christ being given "until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

So, it is reasonable to assume that one should receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost at conversion. Keep in mind that Peter stated that this promise would come when the people repented of their sins and were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38). Repentance and baptism should certainly be considered steps in the conversion process...

Note also that just prior to the passage in Acts 3, you will find Peter making this statement:

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

When someone receives the true “promise of the Holy Ghost” you should both “see and hear” what the Spirit does to the person! Peter was obviously explaining or defending the exuberant expressions on the peoples faces and why they were speaking in tongues…

Please Note: Peter NEVER says that they received the "gift of tongues." The Book of Acts only speaks of people receiving the "gift or promise or baptism of the Holy Ghost." The "gifts" of the Spirit come AFTER one is "filled or baptized" with the initial promise of the Holy Ghost. To suggest otherwise is to add to the Scriptures.

Regarding the point about "proof" of when someone receives the Holy Ghost, how bout the Biblical example we see in Acts 10:

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Question: HOW DID THEY KNOW FOR SURE?

Biblical Answer: Acts 10:46 For (because) they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

As you can see...It says "gift of the Holy Ghost" and NOT the "gift of tongues."

I could provide more examples, but do you actually need more?

Fledge
01-01-02, 10:08 PM
My two-cents worth.

Indwelt to me is a one-time thing. When you get saved, the Spirit takes up residence.

Infilled is a daily, progressive thing. Sure, I may be indwelt by the Spirit, but is He filling me to the point of overflowing? Is He so deeply ingrained in every fiber of my being that he is living not just IN, but THROUGH me to impact this world?
It is continuous. A process of submitting myself to His Lordship and His control.

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

"but be filled" used there is a continuous filling. Be continually filled. Day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute.

Andrew
01-02-02, 03:15 AM
Dear HIS,
-----------------
Actually, I don’t have a problem with this statement above from Debbiek, as long as you put it in context with the Scripture:
For example:
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
-----------------
Yes it does seem to point to that - receiving the Holy Ghost. I'm just nit-picking - ie its still not crystal clear. As i mentioned earlier, there ARE verses that indirectly support/imply this. I'm not denying that.


-------------------
Please Note: Peter NEVER says that they received the "gift of tongues." The Book of Acts only speaks of people receiving the "gift or promise or baptism of the Holy Ghost." The "gifts" of the Spirit come AFTER one is "filled or baptized" with the initial promise of the Holy Ghost. To suggest otherwise is to add to the Scriptures.
-------------------
Yes I agree - they received the gift of the Holy Ghost. But then that raises the million dollar question: "How do you know they received?" In Acts there was a sign/distinct pattern - tongues. Likewise today, how wld one know for sure? If there isn't some kind of sign, anyone can say he's received. Observe the fruit of their lives? That's possible, but why then didn't God just tell Peter that - "Watch how they live from now on and you'll see that I've given them the Holy Spirit" I think Peter wouldn't have time to go observe everyone's lives. Hence a supernatural sign is needed.

So HIS, I can see that you believe in tongues, but is your stand "the" sign or "one of the signs". If the latter, what are the other signs? I'm more inclined to say that it is THE sign. That's my conviction for now.:)

Debbiek
01-02-02, 02:11 PM
INdwelling =At conversion the Holy Spirit dwells within those who are saved. New Christians such as the thief on the cross who go to heaven. (Acts 2:38) INFILLING= the refreshening of the Holy Spirit, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, sanctification, anointing, 2nd blessing, regeneration, enduement of power, refilling, to keep on being filled, filling, fullness, power,etc, etc. It's all the same. Eph 5:18 implies that a 1st filling already occurred. The Holy Spirit dwells within you since time of conversion, but some are not necessarily "filled" with the Holy Spirit at conversion. Regardless, repeatedly being "filled" with the Holy Spirit is commanded by Eph. 5:18. So whatever term one uses to describe "infilling" they all mean the same thing or should mean the same thing. Since the Bible uses "filling" more often than "BAptism" I prefer filling, plus it's less divisive to other denominations. @@@@@@@@@@@@@ Now if we could all be in one accord to the definition of infilling it would be a miracle. So describe infilling itself. Just as one must take Christ as a person into their heart, one must also take the Holy Spirit as a person into their heart. JUst as Christ changes you, so does the Holy Spirit. 2 separate events which could also occur at the same time though. I know most people describe the "infilling" as being physically felt, therefore different from initial salvation. ANdrew can do better I'm sure at describing this. PLease do Andrew. Acts 4:31 said they were filled with the Holy Spirit & spoke"with boldness" the word of God. That may be a sign, but they did not speak in tongues. They no longer feared being killed for preaching the Word, they "spoke it boldly" after their infilling. The Holy Spirit was in charge of their tongue, not the gift of tongues. The thief on the cross did not speak in tongues. JOhn the Baptist, MAry the mother of Jesus had the Holy Spirit before Christ died & they did not speak in tongues. The sound heard that some keep referring to can be "speaking boldly" or preaching the word of God as in acts 4:31. Get over the gift of tongues dividing CHristianity, it is least in importance of the gifts of the Holy Spirit per 1 Cor. God bless those with the real gift of tongues. THe Holy Spirit was never used to divide, but to unite "with one accord". This "sound" & "tongues" thing is a new concept not supported by scripture. I read the verses it doesnt add up. If we could all get past the "sound" & "tongues" as "proof" of who's the better Christian, the Holy Spirit could then be taught to all denominations/Christians. LOVE YA , Debbie

Andrew
01-03-02, 01:04 AM
Dear Deb,

I agree pretty much with your post up to this point:
------------
The thief on the cross did not speak in tongues. JOhn the Baptist, MAry the mother of Jesus had the Holy Spirit before Christ died & they did not speak in tongues.
-------------
That's true, but that's becos the Holy Spirit had not yet been given cos Christ had not yet ascended. B4 the cross the Holy Spirit came upon people but does not indwell them the way He does in the church age. So in a sense, the we do have it better in the NC. That's why Jesus said that it was profitable for him to go away so that he cld send us the Holy Spirit.

---------
The sound heard that some keep referring to can be "speaking boldly" or preaching the word of God as in acts 4:31.
---------
I'm more inclined to think the "sound" here refers to tongues. cos I just dont see speaking in a learned lang, say English, a supernatural sign.

-----------------
THe Holy Spirit was never used to divide, but to unite "with one accord".
-----------------
I agree totally. But while u see the Bap of the Holy Spirit with tongues as more divisive, i see it as very uniting. Personally, my own observation is that I see that Christians who believe in the Bap of the Holy Spirit with tongues are more united, rather than divided.

----------
If we could all get past the "sound" & "tongues" as "proof" of who's the better Christian,
----------
I must agree that there are tongue speaking Christians who think they are better than non-tongue speaking Christians and carry and air of superiority, yet I've not encountered any. I believe both camps have their "black sheep".
But they're still sheep!

God bless:D

HIS
01-03-02, 04:28 AM
Originally posted by Debbiek
I prefer not to use the term "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" . It was rarely used in the Bible, the term "filling" was used many more times, and is less confusing to others who don't know what you are talking about.
Debbie...You have me very concerned with your statement above. You seem to continue to speak against the promise of God for all believers. I do trust that you realize that one thing is for sure...God will not force His promise on anyone who actively fights against it.

It's all about the simple principle of simple "faith." Jesus said, “Therefore I say unto you, what things so ever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.” Also, “Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.” Before he ascended into heaven, He said, “These signs shall follow them that “believe…”

If a person (whether they say they are Christian or not) does not believe, then they will never receive. God will not go against His word and spiritual laws.

Your quote above is an example of distorting the statements recorded in the Scriptures. My search of every combination of the two phrases, (i.e., baptize or baptized with the Spirit or Holy Ghost vs. filled with the Spirit or Ghost finds eight (8) references to EACH of them in the New Testament.

Only when you include the references of Mary, Elisabeth, and Zacharias as being "filled with the Holy Ghost" do you find more references on the "filled with" side. I did not include these references because they don’t relate to the promise JESUS spoke of when he said:

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 7:38-39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Acts 1:4-5 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Debbie…This discussion has never been concerning the experience that Mary, Elisabeth, and Zacharias had received from God. We are not even speaking of the same “filled with the Spirit” experiences as recorded in the Old Testament writings. This has only been about the promise given by God for all those who would accept (as many as the Lord our God shall call) and believe the same way they did after JESUS ascended into heaven.

I hope you give this more thought and reconsider your rejection of this promise…

Reminder: This is NOT a promise of tongues…You don’t seek after tongues, you should only seek after His Spirit. But, when you do, you should understand and believe that you can receive it just like they did in the Scriptures! You should never try and deny the power of God, and what He is able to do for you TODAY. I think Andrew has made some excellent statements also.

Twiggy
01-03-02, 05:03 PM
Debbie,

I don't know what any of us can say to help make understanding the promise of the Holy Spirit any clearer for you.

Luke 11:9-13, (KJV)

9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?



All evidence comes from the Bible. Especially now that you have Biblical knowledge of the Holy Spirit you should take CAUTION. Take care what you speak about the Holy Spirit because anything said against the Him is unforgiveable. But anything else is forgiveable.

Luke 12:10, (KJV), And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Isn't this even the slightest indication to you how necessary the reception of His promise of the Holy Spirit is for salvation?
__________________________________________________ _

"THe Holy Spirit was never used to divide, but to unite "with one
accord". This "sound" & "tongues" thing is a new concept not supported by scripture. I read the verses it doesnt add up."
__________________________________________________ _



It is true. Think. When the apostles were gathered together in Acts 2:1-4, the Holy Spirit came and as "tongues like of fire" sat on EACH one of them. This signifies uniformity ("unity") not division as you claim.

This passage also gives you a glorious illustration of the "sound / wind", "fire appearance / cloven tongues", "with one accord / in one place", "filled the room where they were / sat upon each and filled each one" symbolisms to describe the experience when the Holy Spirit manifests the initial power given to you through the speaking of tongues as the Spirit enables.

The Holy Spirit speaks through you. Isaiah 28:11 describes how this is so..."with stammering lip and another tongue."


Acts 1:8, (KJV), But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


This promise is to occur with each and every born again believer in Jesus Christ. What is it again that doesn't add up?

Debbiek
01-08-02, 01:07 PM
If one rereads my statements, there is nowhere that I said I dont believe in baptism of the Spirit. I said I prefer the term "Filling", which is used a few more times than Baptism. I can use both, if someone is offended, sorry. But I find it more understandable to Christians of non-Charismatic denominations to use the word "filling".

jhamrick
01-09-02, 10:10 AM
JUst a couple of thoughts on the Charismatic idea of Baptism of the Holy Spirit:

If tongues is a natural byproduct of being filled with the spirit, why is it necessary to keep telling everyone it will happen? Wouldn't it just naturally come forth in an unavoidable act? Personally when I experienced the holy spirit for the first time, I was alone, and wasn't moved at all to speak in tongues. THere was no need, noone from a foriegn country was present.

You say tongues is the evidence of the spirit, but who is the evidence for? Is it to prove to GOd that he is in you? I think he would already know.
Is it to prove it to others? It would seem that would make a whole lotta people fake it in order to gain exeptance.
Is it proof for yourself? That would only work in a case like above where the tongues came naturally and were unavoidable.

I have no problem with people speaking any way they like to glorify God, (within scriptural boundaries), but I don't agree with the pressure to make people feel they must speak in tongues. God will give them that gift if they need it.

Flip Special
01-09-02, 12:57 PM
Wow, you guys know your stuff! I'm so excited to learn from you guys:D

I seem to think that once a person accepts Christ as Lord, the Holy Spirit indwells that person. However, the Holy Spirit can "fill" a person at various times, as needed for power from God. Throughout the New Testament, it is mentioned that at a certain moment, so-and-so is "filled with the Holy Spirit."

jhamrick
01-09-02, 01:03 PM
I think you are right Flip, and welcome to the board!

Andrew
01-09-02, 08:13 PM
jhamrick,

you're right, you don't have to speak in tongues if you dont want to. you are still as much saved as any tongue speaker, and as holy as any tongue speaker (Christ being our righteouness and holiness).

so it's more of a whether you "want to" thing. see, the Holy Spirit wont force you. if you read Acts 2 carefully, it says "they began to speak as the Spirit enable them". ie you do the talking, you use your mouth and lungs, the Holy Spirit just provides the words. so its not like it shld be unavoidable as you think, it is really avoidable. many ppl think the Spirit somehow overcomes you and makes your tongue to waggle uncontrollably but that just aint true. that wld be scary! like demonic possession. i wldnt want that!

also tongues is not just an evidence thing. if you dont buy that, i can unerstand. but rem also that tongues is a powerful prayer weapon. you pray God's will when you pray in tongues. When you dont know how else to pray you pray in tongues as the Holy Spirit helps you. Also, it is a praise tool, when your vocabulary runs out and all you keep saying is Praise the Lord Hallelujah, but your heart is still so full, then you can praise him in tongues and there's a sweet release.

these 2 reasons alone make me want to have tongues (never mind the evidence thing).

again its not a ? of whether you should but whether you want to.

God bless

Flip Special
01-09-02, 11:47 PM
Andrew, is it possible that tongues is one of the many spiritual gifts, and that not all Christians will receive this particular gift of tongues? This is the way I understand speaking in tongues.

I was recently at a workshop where the speaker pretty much gave the impression that something isn't right between you and God if you don't have the gift of tongues. I was very offended by this speaker and workshop because I do not speak in tongues, but yet am a born-again Christian with a very living and active relationship with Christ.

I wish I would be given this gift, but it seems to me that God has blessed me with spiritual gifts of different sorts.

In Him,
Flip Special

Andrew
01-10-02, 12:41 AM
Flip special,

I'm sorry about your experience, but as far as me and my church are concerned, and as I've told jhamrick, you are as saved and as holy as any tongue speaker!

yes, the verse "do all speak in tongues" has been used by those "against" tongues (i'm not saying that you are against it). but without going into this area my question wld be: Even if not all are to speak in tongues (althought Paul did say I wish all of you wld speak in tongues) why seek to be in the exclusion grp more than to be in the inclusion grp? afterall all, all the gifts are by grace and God is no respector of persons.

1Co 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy.

Now if it is true that not all can receive, then it's not fair for Paul to say the above. how can he want us all to do something that not all of us can do?

-----------
I wish I would be given this gift,
-----------
you certainly can receive. perhaps you are not sure how to go about it? what you want is actually the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. That (Holy Spirit) is the gift actually, tongues is just the "by-product" for lack of a better word.

grace to you

Debbiek
01-10-02, 10:20 AM
Flip Special, You were very offended at the workshop you mentioned because the Holy Spirit was convicting you about the speaker's false doctrine. Jesus Is the answer. Tongues is a gift. BUt when someone says like they did on the chit chat section of "sex Demons" I think it was,tongues is proof of salvation" then we are exalting the gift above the Giver. Thank you for sharing the uneasiness you felt by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Westminster
03-11-04, 09:48 AM
There are, in fact, four basic manifestations of
tongues outlined in the Word——as we are talking about the "indwelling," or "infilling."

1) Tongues for personal edification (1Cor 14.4). This
is the supernatural language the Holy Spirit prays
through us that we can use to pray hour after hour as
we desire. It is the evidence of the baptism in the
Holy Spirit.

2) Tongues for interpretation (1Cor 14.5). This
manifestation of tongues is normally presented in a
public assembly, accompanied by interpretation by the
same or another person.

3) Tongues of deep intercessional groanings (Rom
8.26). This diversification of tongues empowers the
believers to stand in the gap for their own lives,
their families, their church, their city, their
nation, etc. God may also call on them to intercede
for someone or for some situation that is totally
unknown to them.

4) Tongues as a sign to the unbeliever (1Cor 14.22).
This is the phenomenon that took place on the Day of
Pentecost (Acts 2.4-11). It occurs when the Holy
Spirit transcends the intellect and all language
barriers by empowering a believer to preach, teach, or
testify about Christ in some language of men of which
the believer himself has no knowledge.

Okay, Paul prayed in tongues more than anyone (1Cor
14.18). Paul was a Pharisee, a "Hebrew of Hebrews"
(Phil 3.5). That means he began to memorize the OT
scriptures for seven hours a day beginning at the age
of three. All the OT scripture stored inside Paul,
combined with his praying in tongues enabled Paul to
receive so much revelation knowledge for the
foundation of the church. That brought the Old
Covenant together with the NT. Paul was probably the
only apostle who thoroughly understood the
relationship between the Law and our testament with
God through Jesus Christ——the law of the Spirit of
life: "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ
Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death"
(Rom 8.2).

If you look at Romans 7, and 8 you can maybe see the sharp
division of the Old Covenant, and the New Testament,
which hinges on Romans 8.1. Whenever you see the
phrase "in the flesh," as in Romans 7.5, you see that
the motions of sin in the flesh (or, under the law)
brought forth death (see also 7.6). Everyone after
Adam had a dead human spirit (they were spiritually
dead in Adam). But in the second Adam, Jesus Christ we
have a regenerated spirit (by the Holy Ghost); we are
born again, we have recreated spirit, a new nature.
The law had no delivering power. Christ set the
believer free from the law (Gal 3.24-25). That is what
Paul is saying in Romans 8.1, There is no condemnation
to them which are born-again who walk not after the
flesh or under the law, but after the spirit (small
"s"), the newness of the human spirit. Surely, you
must know that Christ fulfilled the law; he was the
first spiritually alive spirit since Adam (the
firstborn from the dead). No one under the OT could
keep the law; they had a dead nature. Now, we have
power over the sin nature because we do have a spirit
that is alive; we are new creatures in Christ (2Cor
5.17).

I emphasize tongues because the Spirit of truth (the Holy Ghost)
will guide you into all truth. Tongues is a revelatory
gift bringing forth the mysteries of God——teaching you
sound doctrine. Ask God to baptize you in the Holy
Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

The commandments were given to the Jew. Are you a Jew?
No Greek who came to Christ knew anything of the law;
I'm speaking in general terms. So why would you! I'm
telling you, you can not keep it. No flesh is
justified by the law, but by faith. The theme of
Romans is righteousness——the just shall live by faith
apart from ordinances.

I better quit now, or this will become too long. Hope
you enjoy looking at the above scriptures. Remember
that the time will come when they (apostates) will not
endure sound doctrine (2Tim 4.3).
All the best, Guy