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Brandan
01-30-06, 08:25 AM
I'm back from the conference. Ask me any questions you might have in this thread. I'll be posting my full impressions to the 5solas.org blog soon.

Brandan

Just Grace
01-30-06, 08:32 AM
How do you hope to improve Christianity and the state of the current church by these meetings? Seems rather pertenant to me :)

David

Brandan
01-30-06, 08:33 AM
How do you hope to improve Christianity and the state of the current church by these meetings? Seems rather pertenant to me :)

DavidNobody went to try and "improve" the church. We went because we like to hear the Gospel taught, and it's a rare treat to hear it preached with such boldness.

Just Grace
01-30-06, 08:57 AM
I love to hear the Gospel.

For it is for the people of today!

Tobias Crisp
01-30-06, 11:02 AM
I'm back from the conference. Ask me any questions you might have in this thread. I'll be posting my full impressions to the 5solas.org blog soon.

BrandanBrandan I'm glad you enjoyed the conference. I would have loved to have been there for some of the discussions. What were your impressions of Bill Parker?

~Anthony

Brandan
01-30-06, 12:06 PM
Brandan I'm glad you enjoyed the conference. I would have loved to have been there for some of the discussions. What were your impressions of Bill Parker?

~Anthony
Bill Parker is a really cool guy in my opinion. I'm very glad to have met him!

Brandan
01-30-06, 08:57 PM
Well I have much to say, but here are some of the topics in my review of the conference. These will be posted on the 5solas.org blog.

The Timing of Justification
Scott Price and his position concerning justification.
My observation of most of the attendees including the fine folks at EAGC
A misunderstanding of justification from eternity and my challenge to try and explain my position with more clarity.
My conversation with Steve Baloga
My observation of the continuing church splits over the "made sin" controversy including Don Fortner's position which is ever more clear to me.
Ken's first class sermon on Sunday concerning the nature of the atonement.
The freedom of the conscience concerning the recognition of truth.
My thanks to Eager Ave. Grace Church.
Conclusion

Tobias Crisp
01-31-06, 11:38 AM
Brandan,

In your blog you mention that Scott Price and Gospel of Grace Church in Cincinnati are involved in the "current storm" over the timing of justification. I'm just curious in what way this has become a "storm?" I can understand saying that we have been actively involved in the "current storm" over the Christ being made sin more than by imputation but not over the timing of justification.

I do know that Scott and I do not agree that righteousness is imputed at the Cross although we agree it was accomplished there. I do see a distinction between an accomplishment and it's application. I also know that Ken Wimer, Steve Baloga and David Simpson refuse to have fellowship with us because we do not agree with them. Baloga and Simpson consider us lost.

Scott has tried to get Ken Wimer to say one way or another if we are lost because of our disagreement on this issue and Ken has not been forth right in his answer. Our concern is with Bill Parker, will he go down this road.

We, Scott Price, myself and Gospel of Grace Church have stated over and over again that we do not want to make the timing of justification an issue of fellowship as we believe we have more agreement than disagreement with Wimer, Baloga and Simpson. But they are the ones who refuse fellowship. We believe that the central issue is Christ's work of accomplishing that righteousness and that it is unconditional and that the timing of the imputation is secondary. For those who are wondering we do hold that righteousness is imputed at the point of faith, but unlike most Calvinists, we hold that imputation precedes faith and that it is the cause of faith and not the other way around. Our concern is that Wimer, Baloga and Simpson make timing the central issue and it seems that is mostly what they want to talk about.

I hope this helps in clarifying where we stand on this issue. Let me also state that I personally have never been closed minded on the timing issue but have not yet been convinced Scripturally.

~Anthony

Brandan
01-31-06, 12:05 PM
Brandan, In your blog you mention that Scott Price and Gospel of Grace Church in Cincinnati are involved in the "current storm" over the timing of justification. I'm just curious in what way this has become a "storm?" I can understand saying that we have been actively involved in the "current storm" over the Christ being made sin more than by imputation but not over the timing of justification. Anthony, it appears to be a storm to me because I hear people talking on both sides of this issue. I know that Scott is particularly upset, based on past e-mails. I will address this in the blog.


I do know that Scott and I do not agree that righteousness is imputed at the Cross although we agree it was accomplished there. I do see a distinction between an accomplishment and it's application. I'd like to see a defense of this position of yours. It is true that there are certain consequences of salvation that did not occur at the cross. For example, God's people were not converted to the truth at the cross. But how can you say that God did not constitute His people as righteous (from His perspective) at the cross? What basis do you have for making such a claim? Since you don't believe righteousness is imputed until the time of faith, then what state is the believer in before conversion? How are you able to break up the timing of the imputation of sin to Christ from the imputation of righteousness to the elect? These are questions that have never been answered by either you or Scott, and I think it's time that both of you honestly deal with this issue.


I also know that Ken Wimer, Steve Baloga and David Simpson refuse to have fellowship with us because we do not agree with them. Baloga and Simpson consider us lost. I spoke to Steve specifically about you guys, and from what I gather, they aren't 100% sure what your position is, and to be honest, neither am I!


Scott has tried to get Ken Wimer to say one way or another if we are lost because of our disagreement on this issue and Ken has not been forth right in his answer. Our concern is with Bill Parker, will he go down this road.This is from a private e-mail that was sent from Ken to me a while back (september). This is what it said. Now I won't speak for Ken now, but I can't imagine his opinion changing that much since that time, "Scott does not realize that my desire for him and Anthony is that the Lord be pleased to teach them, what He has made precious to my soul. My purpose is not to bring ill repute on any, but rather to exhort them to repentance. My “ambiguity” in answering his questions is only because I want to keep the discussion focused on the truth, rather than get into name calling."


We, Scott Price, myself and Gospel of Grace Church have stated over and over again that we do not want to make the timing of justification an issue of fellowship as we believe we have more agreement than disagreement with Wimer, Baloga and Simpson. But they are the ones who refuse fellowship. We believe that the central issue is Christ's work of accomplishing that righteousness and that it is unconditional and that the timing of the imputation is secondary. For those who are wondering we do hold that righteousness is imputed at the point of faith, but unlike most Calvinists, we hold that imputation precedes faith and that it is the cause of faith and not the other way around. Our concern is that Wimer, Baloga and Simpson make timing the central issue and it seems that is mostly what they want to talk about.Much of this is confusing to me. I like much of what you have written here, btw. However, first you say that righteousness is imputed at the time of faith, and then you state that imputation precedes faith. EXACTLY when is it imputed? Is it just before faith, or at faith? And what is your basis for your position? What scripture do you use to support your position?

As far as fellowship is concerned, I as one who perceives you as a brother in Christ think you need to get your position straight. The topic of justification is probably the most important one in the Bible, and yes, the timing is very important. This has been my position for a long time. I was hoping by now that I would see a defense of your position, but it has not yet come. For everyone's sake, please address this subject and back up your claims with Scripture. Open and honest dialogue is necessary for fellowship, and it is my opinion that you and Scott need to take responsibility and help facilitate this discussion. Maybe there have been some bridges burnt between you and Wimer. I won't ascribe any blame for this. But there aren't any bridges burnt between us, and I am personally calling for yours and Scott's interaction on this important matter! You are concerned that Bill Parker might be going down the same road as Wimer & Simpson? Why then haven't you called for interaction and discussion of this topic? Why haven't I seen a defense of your position?


I hope this helps in clarifying where we stand on this issue.I have not seen a clarification, and I and others are still waiting.


Let me also state that I personally have never been closed minded on the timing issue but have not yet been convinced Scripturally.Anthony, I understand this. I would like to know why you are convinced of the other position. I think the issue of timing is very important, and for this issue to gone on as long as it has without any dialogue is damaging to true fellowship. Please step up to the plate.

Your FRIEND,
Brandan

Brandan
02-08-06, 10:58 PM
Here is my review after a couple hours worth of editing! Much better. Also here is the pdf version.