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Fledge
12-18-01, 08:41 AM
"Did you know that it's not God's will for you or anyone to die young? His will for you is to live the full number of your days. You ought to live 70 or 80 years, and if you are not satisfied, live a while longer! " - Gloria Copeland "From Faith to Faith, Dec. 23 passage)
--So it is OUR choice? WOW...I determine how long I live?

Debbiek
12-27-01, 06:35 PM
Yes God wants us to be fruitful & multiply & be blessed & not suffer, etc. God doesn't sentence us to death as a child. He loves us.

Fledge
12-28-01, 12:04 AM
Well, ya see...I was being facetious with what I said concerning the quote from Gloria Copeland.

GOD is in command of when I show up on this planet, and when I leave.
I go when He is ready for me to go...whether I am ready or not. My job, is to be ready every second of every day and be found doing the Will of God.


and if you are not satisfied, live a while longer!
NO, NO, NO...if I am not satisfied when it is my time...well...then I go not being satisfied. Therefore, I should be spending my time and energies on things of Him, and not of ME.

Wherever Gloria Copeland got this idea...she didn't get it from the Bible or from God.

JC FR3AK
12-28-01, 01:14 PM
Look at all those people who died in the September 11th atrocity. Most of them would not liked to have died, but how many of them were mirraculosly saved? No you're right Fledge, she could not have got the idea from God!

Debbiek
01-02-02, 06:15 PM
Fledge, I didn't really want to say anything bad about the woman, but I'm sure she confused one of her own thoughts with that of God's voice. He wouldn't have any reason to say that. I heard a preacher on tv the other day say that he went to heaven recently (cajun preacher/ small man/ white hair) & God told him that if your baby died 20 yrs before you died, that when you get to heaven your baby would be as a 20 yr old like on earth. I don't believe that either. I think they are overimpressed with their own relationship & confuse their own thoughts or satanic suggestion with that of God's voice.

HIS
01-03-02, 03:57 AM
Originally posted by Debbiek
I don't believe that either. I think they are overimpressed with their own relationship & confuse their own thoughts or satanic suggestion with that of God's voice.
I'll give you some points for this statement Debbie...Very well stated. :)

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Debbiek
01-08-02, 01:50 PM
Since these people, Mrs. Copeland & JEsse Duplantis, are saying "GOd says......" something which is not in scripture, then they are telling us they are prophets. Is it just that they are confused as I said earlier, or are they false prophets which we were warned about in Scripture? I cannot find any Scripture to back up my own theory that they are just confused, nor can I find any scripture which allows me to give them credence. SCripture tells me I am wrong to listen to any word they ever say again. REV 2:20-28. Anyone else know of Scripture to excuse a confused Prophet? thanks

Fledge
01-09-02, 12:32 AM
The Bible says that a false prophet must be put to death. Having said that, I also do not condone going around murdering those who are false prophets, but the Bible is very clear regarding the grave nature of claiming to be a prophet and being wrong.

If somebody says "Thus says the Lord" or "God said this" then they are, in effect, claiming to be a prophet, and what they sat BETTER line up with scripture 100% or else they should keep their trap shut!! God doesn't look lightly upon such things.

There are no scriptures to back up a confused, or sincere yet sincerely wrong prophet. The Word is clear.

Debbiek
01-10-02, 09:53 AM
Eggs actly. It's a change for me to think that way, but I know it's right. In fact, today we are more worried about offending someone & turning people away from the church, instead of calling it like it is. The Bible is clear in it's warnings for the church. Thank you.

Andrew
01-15-02, 03:35 AM
Psalms 91:15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him. 16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.
--------------------

When you hate someone, you'll always find fault with everything they do and say.

The teaching that God wants us to live a long good life is in direct opposition to the lie from the pit of hell that says "when its time for you to go, its time for you to go." Or that some people are just destined by God to die young. What blasphemy! You'll never find the latter in the Bible. Why not apply it to your own life if you believe in it so much?

This WOF teaching encourages those who have been "destined" by the world to die young. Those who have certain illnesses and have been written off to die. These words give them hope.

After my mom had gone thru a painful cancer op, she was sad and depressed. she asked me why she had to go thru so many operations all her life. but she was depressed cos some preacher said that it was a gen curse, ie her parents (whom she doesnt know since she's an orphan) did something wrong in the past.

I encouraged her by telling her that Jesus had redeemed her from any curse and that if she wanted to live long, she could, cos God says, "with long life I will satisfy you", the number of your days i will fulfill. She soon got out of that depressed state.

but there's a reason why God wants us to live long - to see more of Jesus. And "shew him my salvation (YESHUA=Jesus)." This is how the long life becomes satisfying.

Andrew
01-15-02, 03:44 AM
Debbiek,

If Jesus appeared to you in a dream and told you something.
then when you relate the dream to your friend and say Jesus said.....

does that make you a prophet? does that mean you are claiming to be a prophet?

I dont think so right?

HIS
01-15-02, 04:08 AM
Originally posted by Andrew
After my mom had gone thru a painful cancer op, she was sad and depressed. she asked me why she had to go thru so many operations all her life. but she was depressed cos some preacher said that it was a gen curse, ie her parents (whom she doesnt know since she's an orphan) did something wrong in the past.Andrew...Your statement above reminded me of this passage:

John 9:1 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth.

John 9:2 His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

John 9:3 "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life...

I liked your words of encouragement that you gave to your mother. Perhaps this passage can apply also.

HIS

Debbiek
01-15-02, 11:39 AM
If Jesus appeared to you in a dream & told you something, then do you tell your friends,"Jesus told me to tell you....", or do you say, "Jesus wants you to know...", or do you say, "I had a dream last night that Jesus said...."? What is the WOF? The difference in my view may be because I am not a cessassionist, and I know someone who has the gift of prophecy, and I believe the great tribulation will probably occur within my lifetime. Therefore, I heed the Bible's warnings on end time churches & false prophets. FOr further study I suggest the book, "Thus Saith The Lord?" by John Bevere. Andrew , Fledge's complaint with Gloria Copeland's prophecy was probably not the beginning, but the end of her statement..." if you are not satisfied live a while longer". Did GOd say that?

Fledge
01-15-02, 11:46 AM
If I had a dream like that, I would look at the dream and compare it, and what "Jesus said" in the dream to what scripture says. I would compare and contrast every detail of the dream to the revealed Word of God.
And if the dream does not line up 100% with scripture...it should be dismissed as either a satanic deception, or a product of your own mind.
Just because a person "uses the name of Jesus" or a dream has "Jesus" in it, does not make it biblical, christian, or doctrinally sound.
God will NEVER contradict Himself. Man will contradict God, but He CAN NOT and WILL NOT ever contradict Himself.

Debbiek
01-15-02, 12:02 PM
When someone says,"JEsus told me to tell you" or "God has a word for you" or "Jesus told me ", then YES, that person is claiming they have the gift of prophecy, whether they realize it or not. BUt if you say,"I had a dream last night that Jesus said.... and I'm not sure if this is my own imagination..." then you are not claiming prophecy. These propehts on TV , like Jessie Dupplantis, said "God told me that if your baby dies it will grow up while it's in heaven til you die & He wants you to know that". That is not backed up by Scripture & he is a false prophet. period. sorry.

countrymouse
01-15-02, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by Andrew

When you hate someone, you'll always find fault with everything they do and say.



Andrew, that's very true. But I wonder if you mean that many of us are finding fault with Hinn because we just hate him. I (and I bet this is true for the others as well) don't have any personal feelings for or against Benny Hinn at all. I don't know him; I have never had any dialogue with him.

BUT

I vehemently object to the unbiblical claims he has made in the name of God. I will be happy to consider explanations you have to offer IF you back them up from Scripture. If you feel you can do that and want to do so, I think the appropriate place would be the thread, "the latest teachings from Benny Hinn."

If you can't support your acceptance of Hinn's teachings from Scripture, I cannot see why you would want to defend him at all.

Respectfully,
countrymouse

Fledge
01-15-02, 10:37 PM
I agree with countrymouse.
I don't hate Hinn, or Hagin, or Copeland, or Duplantis, or any of the other host of WoF teachers out there. I have never met them, they have done nothing to me to make me even dislike them in any way. I have no personal problems with them in the least.

I hate what they teach though. I hate that they take the Holy Word of God and twist it into a name-it-and-claim-it doctrine of "gimme gold now" while they take people's money and hopes.
I hate that they twist scriptures exactly as the Apostle Paul warned Timothy about: (2 Timothy 3-4)
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.


I wish them no harm, I wish their "ministries" no harm or ill. I just wish they would get their doctrine straightened out and preach the Word of God in honesty and in Truth.
My goal is not to demean them in any way, nor harm them or their reputations...but I do plan on and mean to counter every false teaching I hear to the best of my ability. If they speak a silly, stupid, unbiblical nonsense...then it is my duty to counter that with the Truth of His Word.

Andrew
01-16-02, 12:48 AM
Dear Debbie,
--------------
These propehts on TV , like Jessie Dupplantis, said "God told me that if your baby dies it
will grow up while it's in heaven til you die & He wants you to know that". That is not backed up by Scripture & he is a false prophet. period. sorry.
--------------

u say u believe in prophecy. i do to. so if a person in your church prophesies that
there's gonna be a revival in your church in 2 years time, do you think its possible he's hearing right from God? I believe you'd say it's possible. yet how do you back that up with scripture? you'll not find any chp or verse in the Bible which says "Debbie's church will have a revival in 2003".

From what I know, the bible says that a person prophesies unto comfort, exhortation and edification. So a prophecy like this, lines up with scripture, becos it encourages your church, which may be hungering for a revival. The Bible never said that when a person prophesies, he can only parrot the scriptures.

So how do you know what Brother Jesse said does not line up with scripture? Of course there are no scriptures that says "If your child dies, he goes straight to heaven and grows", just like there are no scriptures that say "Debbie's church will have a revival in 2003". Have you looked for scriptures that support the idea that babies that ddie go to heaven? do u see the difference?

I've watched that video tape in which Bro Jesse spoke on that. It's called Close Encounters of the God kind. That portion u mentioned is actually saying that babies and young children go straight to heaven, shld they die prematurely. Now isnt that comforting to parents who have lost their loved ones at such a young age, to women who had miscarriages?

Debbie, when Jesse said those words "God told me that if your baby dies it will grow up while it's in heaven til you die & He wants you to know that" how do you know he wasnt prophesying unto comfort, exhortation and edification to someone in the huge congregation who just had a miscarriage, and who is grieving and thinking that her baby is in hell? What's wrong with believeing that God takes care of our little ones when we cant? is that such heresy?

Andrew
01-16-02, 12:56 AM
countrymouszee,
----------------
I will be happy to consider explanations you have to offer IF you back them up from Scripture.
-----------------

I already gave Psalms 91:15 regarding long life and explained it.
So what do you think?

also, if u can provide me a scripture that says that God destines some of this children to have long lives and some to die young, or someting like that.

God bless

btw: I have also backed up the "little gods" idea with scripture in another thread, if u are interested, have u considered that?

Andrew
01-16-02, 01:04 AM
HIS,

thanks for those verses. yes I did consider them too.

my mum is alive and kicking today, very active too. all by the grace of God.

peace

countrymouse
01-16-02, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by Andrew
I already gave Psalms 91:15 regarding long life and explained it.
So what do you think?

also, if u can provide me a scripture that says that God destines some of this children to have long lives and some to die young, or someting like that.


Life on earth is good, because it's part of God's plan for his people. And the OT has many, many references, including Psalms 91:15 that tell us that God wants to bless his people with long and fruitful lives. However, there have been exceptions as well. For instance, prophesying that God was about to judge his people for their sins, Isaiah said this:

Isaiah 57

1. The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart; and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
2. He entereth into peace; they rest in their beds, each one that walketh in his uprightness.


God did not want his righteous ones to have to endure the pouring out of his wrath, so he took many of them out of the way. Not all, of course, because he retained a remnant through whom to continue his covenant and fulfill his promises. Isaiah marveled that no one realized that the untimely deaths of the righteous signaled wrath about to come!


I wonder... would you say that Stephen, most of the apostles, and many believers died in the first century persecutions because they didn't claim their right to live long lives on earth? What about all the believers who have been martyred for their faith throughout history?

Consider this from Hebrews 11:
35. Women received their dead by a resurrection: and others were tortured, not accepting their deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36. and others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37. they were stoned, they were sawn asunder, they were tempted, they were slain with the sword: they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated
38. (of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves, and the holes of the earth.


Also that Paul said this in Philippians 1:
20. according to my earnest expectation and hope, that in nothing shall I be put to shame, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether by life, or by death.
21. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22. But if to live in the flesh,--if this shall bring fruit from my work, then what I shall choose I know not.
23. But I am in a strait betwixt the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ; for it is very far better:
24. yet to abide in the flesh is more needful for your sake.
25. And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide, yea, and abide with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith;


Notice that he said it would be far better to depart and be with Christ! But he felt that people needed him, so he was willing to remain for their sake. That, in my opinion, has a very different flavor than Hinn's teaching that we ought to demand to go on living here for our own pleasure!

You see, if the teachings of Hinn and other WOF teachers didn't contain a grain of truth, no one would believe them. But it's that grain of truth that makes the deception so insidious and so successful.

Sorry, but I'm still not convinced!

Debbiek
01-16-02, 08:32 AM
Andrew, what is the WOF? I thank God that your mother is well today.You gave her good advice. I believe that it was comforting for Duplantis' listeners to know their baby was in heaven. BUt the problem is when he said God wants us to know our baby AGES while it is in heaven. I won't go around telling people he is a false prophet, but for the sake of this study of thread, in line with scripture, he would be a false prophet. There is no scripture that I know of which states a "baby" ages in heaven, while adults do not. If it exists, then he may not be a false prophet. Furthermore, as he said this, it felt like a cement block fell from out of my heart to my feet. To say that my church would be experiencing a rebirth is not AGAINST scripture.

Andrew
01-16-02, 09:38 PM
Debbie,

I do not want to get too deep into this cos its really not important.
But what kind of place do you think heaven is? Is it some kind of spiritual surreal place where spirits float around like Casper? I'm sure u dont think this way about heaven. It is certainly a very real place to you and I.

So why is it so hard to believe that babies can grow in heaven, yet no one there gets old and starts hunching and coughing? Would God allow a baby to remain a baby, stunted in growth and never reach his full stature? Of course not. And I dont think anyone needs prophecy from heaven, visions or lists of scriptures to confirm this.

As long as you believe that babies go to heaven and that God and his angels know full well how to take care of them, its fine by me. :)

Andrew
01-16-02, 10:18 PM
----------------
God did not want his righteous ones to have to endure the pouring out of his wrath, so he took many of them out of the way. Not all, of course, because he retained a remnant through whom to continue his covenant and fulfill his promises. Isaiah marveled that no one realized that the untimely deaths of the righteous signaled wrath about to come!
----------------
I'm not familiar with this whole chp yet, but where does it say that God killed them? Pouring out his wrath but taking away the righteous -- Sounds like the coming rapture to me. Also this is an OT verse. Christ already bore the wrath of God on our behalf at the cross. So God does not take away Christians (their lives) today as he executes his wrath or b4 he exce his wrath. Otherwise he's not being faithful to Jesus. ie punishing us twice. The church will be removed first (rapture) b4 he pours out his wrath.

Martyrdom of the Apostles -- Do you know what the Bible says about true biblical martyrdom? They have a choice, to die or to be rescued out. They chose to die. That is true martyrdom. If a missionary on his way to a village dies in a plane crash, that is not really martyrdom. "not accepting their deliverance" as u quoted in Hebrews 11. So it sure does not mean that they didnt have a choice to be saved. Anyway comparing martyrdom and a person who wants a good long life is quite unfair.

What Paul said about it being better to depart and be with Christ yet choosing to remain --- Hmmmm....sure sounds like someone who thru Christ has power to decide when its time to go, which is exactly what the WOFs are trying to teach, so that Christians may have the same revelations Paul had regarding power to put off death. ie he chose to REMAIN. Doesnt that ring a bell when you read "Those who are alive and REMAIN...."

so countrymouse, if you still insist that when its time for you to go, you have to go, then according to your faith be it unto you (I really wish you'd believe otherwise). As for me, my household and my church, we will live long satisfactory lives in the name of Jesus.:) ;)

countrymouse
01-17-02, 06:28 PM
And greetings again, Andrew!


Here's one of the passages I quoted:

Isaiah 57

1. The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart; and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
2. He entereth into peace; they rest in their beds, each one that walketh in his uprightness.

You said:
"I'm not familiar with this whole chp yet, but where does it say that God killed them? Pouring out his wrath but taking away the righteous -- Sounds like the coming rapture to me."


Ah, there's the rub!
The book of Isaiah does contain prophecies regarding the final New Covenant kingdom. However, most of the prophecies in the book concern judgments that God was getting ready to bring about, at that time! God told Isaiah to tell these kings that he was about to bring first Assyria, and then Babylon, to take over and devastate both Israel and Judah. And God did indeed fulfill those prophecies in a timely manner.

Chapter 57 is not about any future rapture, nor even about the judgment at the end of the OC age. It's context falls within the time leading up to either the Assyrian conquest or the Babylonian captivity. "...merciful men are taken away..." - by whom, Andrew, if not by God? Who determined that Moses and Aaron had to die rather than enter Canaan with the rest of Israel? Yes, God has, at times, removed some from among his own beloved saints from this earthly life! In fact, it is he alone who removes each one of us at the right time!

Not only that, but none of the passages regarding the blessing of a long life, ever show that it is a blessing bestowed upon the believer by the believer, except by virtue of an obedient life. It is God who bestows blessings. And I have seen nothing anywhere in the Bible (and I have read it all, more than once) that says or implies that one of the things we can do to obey God is to "name and claim" an extension. If we can just keep deciding to live longer, and longer, why have any believers died yet? Yes, that's hyperbole, I know. Think of this: King Hezekiah did get an extension, a deliverance from disease. But not because he named and claimed it! He pleaded with God to spare his life, and God gave him mercy, and granted peace during the rest of his reign.

You also said:
"so countrymouse, if you still insist that when its time for you to go, you have to go, then according to your faith be it unto you (I really wish you'd believe otherwise). As for me, my household and my church, we will live long satisfactory lives in the name of Jesus."

Fine with me, Andrew! However, I think I'll imitate Paul, and stay as long as I can be useful. After that, however, I'd prefer to shuffle off this mortal coil. I have a lot of questions for people who have gone before, and I very much look forward to an unencumbered fellowship with my beloved Savior and King. ;)

Andrew
01-17-02, 07:44 PM
-----------
However, I think I'll imitate Paul, and stay as long as I can be useful. After that, however, I'd prefer to shuffle off this mortal coil.
-----------
Praise the Lord! you are getting it! *LOL*:D

countrymouse
01-18-02, 09:03 AM
Hold on there, Andrew! :)

At the risk of being argumentative, I must say something: I'm trying to point out the difference in emphasis between the Biblical concept of long life and the WOF concept.

1. Yes, long life is a blessing God wishes to grant to his beloved people, not primarily for our own benefit, but for his glory.

2. No, extension of life is not something we can simply grab hold of for ourselves for selfish purposes.

3. Yes, at times God has removed some of his people from this earthly existence, either out of mercy or as penalty for disobedience.

I apologize if I confused you by my "imitation of Paul" statement. I was not saying that the number of my days in this body depends on my decision. God is in charge of that. My desire is to please him; I only hope I can reach the point of wanting to please God as much as Paul wanted to please him. Neither was Paul saying that he could decide whether to stay or go. Paul had a very strong desire to go and be with God and enjoy his rewards; he wasn't having fun being imprisoned, beaten, ridiculed, pursued from town to town, going hungry and in rags, and having false teachers go everywhere behind him sparking heresy. You know, neither one of us has had it that tough, thanks be to God! But Paul quieted his soul and decided to be content with God's will concerning his earthly tenure, understanding that God would keep him here until his work was done!

WOF teachers plant a grain of truth, then twist it to make it palatable to the masses, and take the monetary profits to the bank! Telling people what they want to hear works every time! All it takes is a difference of emphasis.

Respectfully,
countrymouse

Fledge
01-18-02, 10:14 AM
If we can decide, even to a small extent, how long we live and when we go "Home" to heaven...then we take the place of God, man is deified and God's perfect Power is diminished.

Man is totally dependent on God, for health, for life, for joy, for salvation, for every aspect of our lives from beginning to end.

Fledge
01-18-02, 10:15 AM
Another thought...
God is not obligated to give us anything. He has NO "obligations" to tend to our wills...QUITE the contrary, we are obligated to God for everything.

Andrew
01-18-02, 11:30 PM
countrymouse,

Ok so you agree that God wants us to have a long satisfying life so that we may serve him or know Jesus better, as Psalm 91:16 says:

With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation (Yeshua in Hebrew).
Ex 23:25 And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.
26 There shall nothing cast their young, nor be barren, in thy land: the number of thy days I will fulfil.

Nobody here is saying that he gives us long life so that we can party on.

Now, what you disagree is that it depends on God. You said:
------------
I was not saying that the number of my days in this body depends on my decision. God is in charge of that.
------------
What I believe and what the WOF are saying is that it depends on you, cos God puts you responsible for it. Its what you say that will determine how long or short you're gonna live. Of course if u standing in front of a speeding truck, u aint gonna live without saying anything. Bible proof?

Pr 18:21 --- Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

Psalms 34:12-16/1 Peter 3:10-12 --- For he that will love life and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they may speak no guile...."

Sure sounds like the responsibility is given to us to talk right, instead of just sitting down and letting God descide for us. He has already decided (Psalms 91:16) -- his will is for us to live long good lives, AND he has told us how to do it, so its up to us what we want to say about it.

God bless

countrymouse
01-19-02, 08:59 AM
Yes, Andrew, I did agree that many passages in the Bible tell us that God desires to give us long, peaceful lives. It is a general promise. As per one of the verses you quoted:

as Psalm 91:16 says:

With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation (Yeshua in Hebrew).


I have no argument with that, as a general promise regarding God's elect. However, WOF seems to apply it in every case and place blame on believers who do not achieve this as some kind of standard. Again, what about the apostles? We know from the record of history that most of them were martyred by the late 60's AD, and not at ripe old ages! Does that mean in WOF-think that they failed to claim God's promises??? What about all the Christian martyrs throughout church history?


Now, here's Exodus 23:25 in it's Biblical context:

Exodus 23:
20 “Behold, I am going to send an angel before you to guard you along the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared.
21 “Be on your guard before him and obey his voice; do not be rebellious toward him, for he will not pardon your transgression, since My name is in him.
22 “But if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries.
23 “For My angel will go before you and bring you in to the land of the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will completely destroy them.
24 “You shall not worship their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their deeds; but you shall utterly overthrow them and break their sacred pillars in pieces.
25 “But you shall serve the Lord your God, and He will bless your bread and your water; and I will remove sickness from your midst.
26 “There shall be no one miscarrying or barren in your land; I will fulfill the number of your days.
27 “I will send My terror ahead of you, and throw into confusion all the people among whom you come, and I will make all your enemies turn their backs to you.
28 “I will send hornets ahead of you so that they will drive out the Hivites, the Canaanites, and the Hittites before you.
29 “I will not drive them out before you in a single year, that the land may not become desolate and the beasts of the field become too numerous for you.
30 “I will drive them out before you little by little, until you become fruitful and take possession of the land.
31 “I will fix your boundary from the Red Sea to the sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness to the River Euphrates; for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you will drive them out before you.
32 “You shall make no covenant with them or with their gods.
33 “They shall not live in your land, because they will make you sin against Me; for if you serve their gods, it will surely be a snare to you.”
The New American Standard Bible, 1995 Update, (La Habra, California: The Lockman Foundation) 1996.


This does not apply to us today: These were God's promises to OC Israel as they were on their way to Canaan to posess the land God had promised them through Abraham. Otherwise, am I supposed to go in and take over the land of the Hittites, the Jebusites, Perrezites, and Hivites as well? Context, Andrew!


Pr 18:21 --- Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

Let's compare that to other verses from Proverbs that are about the same idea. Then we'll see whether it means that I can claim long life by just speaking it!

Proverbs 12:
13 An evil man is ensnared by the transgression of his lips,
But the righteous will escape from trouble.

Proverbs 13:
3 The one who guards his mouth preserves his life;
The one who opens wide his lips comes to ruin.

Proverbs 18:
7 A fool’s mouth is his ruin,
And his lips are the snare of his soul.

Proverbs 20:
19 He who goes about as a slanderer reveals secrets,
Therefore do not associate with a gossip.

Proverbs 10:
14 Wise men store up knowledge,
But with the mouth of the foolish, ruin is at hand.

Proverbs 11:
2 When pride comes, then comes dishonor,
But with the humble is wisdom.
3 The integrity of the upright will guide them,
But the crookedness of the treacherous will destroy them.
4 Riches do not profit in the day of wrath,
But righteousness delivers from death.
5 The righteousness of the blameless will smooth his way,
But the wicked will fall by his own wickedness.
6 The righteousness of the upright will deliver them,
But the treacherous will be caught by their own greed.
7 When a wicked man dies, his expectation will perish,
And the hope of strong men perishes.
8 The righteous is delivered from trouble,
But the wicked takes his place.
9 With his mouth the godless man destroys his neighbor,
But through knowledge the righteous will be delivered.
10 When it goes well with the righteous, the city rejoices,
And when the wicked perish, there is joyful shouting.
11 By the blessing of the upright a city is exalted,
But by the mouth of the wicked it is torn down.
12 He who despises his neighbor lacks sense,
But a man of understanding keeps silent.
13 He who goes about as a talebearer reveals secrets,
But he who is trustworthy conceals a matter.

So, what rescues the righteous, according to these passages?

"The one who guards his mouth"..."Wise men store up knowledge"..."With the humble is wisdom"..."The integrity of the upright will guide them"..."righteousness delivers from death"..."The righteousness of the blameless will smooth his way"..."The righteousness of the upright will deliver them"..."The righteous is delivered from trouble"..."through knowledge the righteous will be delivered"..."a man of understanding keeps silent"...

Andrew, consider what James had to say about the power of the tongue:

James 1:
26 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless.

Maybe the WOF has a point - looky here! (I am being facetious; bear with me.)

James 2:
3 Now if we put the bits into the horses’ mouths so that they will obey us, we direct their entire body as well.
4 Look at the ships also, though they are so great and are driven by strong winds, are still directed by a very small rudder wherever the inclination of the pilot desires.
5 So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things.
See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire!

I turned on the TV one day, and saw K. Copeland preaching. Several of my friends from college days were fans of his, so I decided to listen and see how he handled the word of God. He quoted pieces of James 2 to back up his claims about the power of the Christian's tongue to bring his desires into being. But I was already thoroughly familiar with James 2, and I knew that what James was actually talking about was the capacity of the tongue for evil, not for good! Read on...

James 2:
6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.
7 For every species of beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by the human race.
8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.
9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;
10 from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.
11 Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water?
12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh.

The New American Standard Bible, 1995 Update, (La Habra, California: The Lockman Foundation) 1996.

That, Andrew, is the Biblical presentation of the power of the tongue!!!

Am I a heresy hunter? No, I don't go around looking for heresy, or trying to live my life stamping out its fires. There are too many of them. It is more expedient for me to study the Bible and teach it to my children, so that they will know false doctrine when they hear it and they will stay away from it! God will do as he wishes with these men and women of the WOF movement, and in his own time. I shudder for them. My allegiance, however, is with God and his word.

Respectfully,
countrymouse

Andrew
01-20-02, 01:11 AM
countrymouse,

-----------
However, WOF seems to apply it in every case and place blame on believers who do not achieve this as some kind of standard.
-----------
I dont know about the every case thing - my church applies it to long life that's it, as the verse says. And not all WOF ppl blame others if they cant achieve some standard. In our church we maintain that it is not a sin to be sick or to see the doc but it sure is to blame God for bad things.

-----------
Again, what about the apostles? We know from the record of history that most of them were martyred by the late 60's AD,
-----------
I already explained to you that the Apostles had a choice - to accept deliverance or to die (as Hebrews stated). They chose death. That's true martyrdom - when u have a choice. And we're not talking abt martyrs here but the average Christian.

---------------
This does not apply to us today: These were God's promises to OC Israel a .... Context, Andrew!
---------------
My dear Christ redeemed us from the curses of the the Law, He didnt take away the blessings. If the NC is superior to the OC, dont you think it shld at least contain the blessings of the OC? But we know it does, and even offers more.

I dont see your point in telling me that the tongue can be used for cursing too. We're talking about using it for good. Training it to speak according to the word, which is the crux of WOF. U seem to focus on the fact that the tongue can only be used for evil and the Christian has to settle for that. Think positive (Mark 11:24). As u quoted James, he himself said it need not be this way.
---------
10 from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.
---------

countrymouse, you already agree that God's will is for us to live long satisfying lives that glorify him (unless u are called to be a martyr). Now since he already revealed his will in this matter, dont u think it is only fair for him to tell us how to get it? And sure he does tell us. There are certain things we do that will shorten our lives (like drinking and smoking/drugs) so obviously there are things we do that will lengthen it to its full days - and the Bible is full of it, the chief being how you use your tongue. The pt is how can God reveal his will in one area of our lives and then not tell us how to achieve it?

So if you dont believe that the tongue (as the BIble says) can be used to prolong life or put off untimely death, then you must present another Biblical 'method', otherwise you are actually saying that God has revealed his will but leaves us 'hanging' without telling us how to get it.

The Bible is already very clear that the power of life and death is in the tongue. All I need is 2 or 3 witnesses to establish it. Then you either believe or reject the Word. I hope you'll consider the former.

1. Pr 18:21 --- Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

2.Psalms 34:12-16 ----- For he that will love life and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they may speak no guile...."

3. 1 Peter 3:10-12 says the same thing.

4. Prov 10:27 The fear [worship] of the LORD prolongeth days: but the years of the wicked shall be shortened.

5. Prov 19:23 ----- The fear [worship] of the LORD leads to life; and he who has it rests satisfied; he will not be visited by harm.

I have given 5 witnesses. I rest my case.

;)

countrymouse
01-20-02, 07:21 PM
MORE homework, Andrew! :)

You said:
So if you dont believe that the tongue (as the BIble says) can be used to prolong life or put off untimely death, then you must present another Biblical 'method', otherwise you are actually saying that God has revealed his will but leaves us 'hanging' without telling us how to get it.

"The Bible is already very clear that the power of life and death is in the tongue. All I need is 2 or 3 witnesses to establish it. Then you either believe or reject the Word. I hope you'll consider the former."

1. Pr 18:21 --- Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

We differ vastly in how we interpret this verse; I already posted the other verses from Proverbs about the power of the tongue. I see no relationship between this verse and using words to command any particular thing to happen, whether length of life, health or wealth. By the way, the phrase "...they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof..." is a warning!!! Go back and read my previous post for Solomon's other comments about the tongue and the use of language.

-----

"2.Psalms 34:12-16 ----- For he that will love life and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they may speak no guile...."

Right, Andrew! But this verse does not support a "name & claim" paradigm. According to this verse, if we would see long life, we keep our tongues from speaking evil. That does not mean, as the WOF teachers claim, that a casual remark such as "I almost died of surprise," or some other silly thing, takes time off our lives! Our tongues are not magic wands, and the WOF teachers treat them as just that! This verse, as many others do, warns us not to spread slander and gossip, not to make promises or take vows in God's name when we don't mean to keep them, not to direct heart-withering insults at other people.

3. 1 Peter 3:10-12 says the same thing.

Yes it does! and Peter interpreted this verse by what he wrote before and after it. Let's look at that -

1 Peter 3:
8. Finally, be ye all likeminded, compassionate, loving as brethren, tenderhearted, humbleminded:
9. not rendering evil for evil, or reviling for reviling; but contrariwise blessing; for hereunto were ye called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
10. For, He that would love life, And see good days, Let him refrain his tongue from evil, And his lips that they speak no guile:
11. And let him turn away from evil, and do good; Let him seek peace, and pursue it.
12. For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, And his ears unto their supplication: But the face of the Lord is upon them that do evil.

-----

4. Prov 10:27 The fear [worship] of the LORD prolongeth days: but the years of the wicked shall be shortened.

The fear of the LORD includes more than worship: it also concerns obedience, and handling his word carefully and responsibly! Those who handle the word of God wrongly, as in the example I gave from one of Kenneth Copeland's TV programs, are not acting out of fear of the LORD!

-----

5. Prov 19:23 ----- The fear [worship] of the LORD leads to life; and he who has it rests satisfied; he will not be visited by harm.

Andrew, notice that NONE of these verses say that anyone can wield his or her tongue like a magic wand, and thereby make God give him a longer life! If someone turns around and sees a Mack truck barrelling toward him, he'd better move out of the way! Standing there and commanding the truck, in the name of Jesus, not to hit him isn't going to keep him alive. Can God send angels to stop the truck? Of course he can. But the Biblical precedent for escape from disaster is throwing oneself upon God's mercy - in other words ASKING God rather than COMMANDING God to move on one's behalf.

-----

You also said:
"I already explained to you that the Apostles had a choice - to accept deliverance or to die (as Hebrews stated). They chose death. That's true martyrdom - when u have a choice. And we're not talking abt martyrs here but the average Christian."

Exactly right! And I don't think I said anything earlier that disagreed with that. Martyrs are the ONLY examples in Scripture who truly had to go ahead and choose whether or not to die! And look what kind of choice that was: "Do I apostasize or quit ministering the word in order to save my skin, or do I submit to God's call to martyrdom?" That's the true nature of that choice! It was not a matter of saying, "Naah, I'll call down some angels and die for God later!" Oh yes, God sent angels in many cases; show me one, though, Andrew, from Scripture, in which a believer commanded it to happen!

-----

Do I think we have some responsibility, as average Christians, about how long we live? Sure I do!

1. We have responsibility to do the best we can to take care of our bodies.

2. We have responsibility to "abide in Christ" through prayer, through Bible study, through obedience, and through loving each other as brothers and sisters in God's kingdom.

-----

Does it matter how we use our tongues? Again, of course it does! What kind of power does the tongue really have? We can use words to to witness for Christ, to defend the helpless, encourage the weak, gently admonish, gently correct, melt the effects of a bad day, and to defend sound doctrine with patience and meekness. That is how God would have us use our tongues!
He does not want us to use them to manipulate other people, twist the truth to suit our own greedy purposes, perjure ourselves to get innocent people condemned, make empty promises, cause divisions, spread slander, aim insults at others.

Again, nowhere does the Bible treat the tongue as a "magic wand" that can produce whatever the believer wishes by just calling it forth! That, in fact, is sorcery, however you dress it or try to disguise it. And, unfortunately, that IS what WOF teachers teach about the power of the tongue! You want it? According to them, you just speak it, and if you believe, it will happen!!! Somebody watched too many Disney movies as a child!

Andrew
01-20-02, 07:39 PM
countrymouse,
-------------
Again, nowhere does the Bible treat the tongue as a "magic wand" that can produce whatever the believer wishes by just calling it forth!
-------------
I dont know why u keep bringing up this point. I've never said or implied that the Christian tongue is some sort of magic wand where saying a few words repeatedly (albeit verses) gets us what we want.

All I'm saying is that as the Bible says, life and death is in the power of the tongue. That what we say, can prolong or shorten our lives. That's crystal clear in the Bible.

It's just the way we were created. The tongue has that 'power' too. It's not just for eating and tasting. Consider that we are created in the image of God. God spoke and things came into being. There is some of that in us who are his image. We are a royal priesthood. -- kings and priests. In the OT the priest/prophet wld here from God but they tell the king who executes by speaking forth his order, then things happen. so can you see that being also kings in Christ, and having been given authority, we use our tongue to speak forth too?
Mark 11: 23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

There must certainly be something powerful about our tongue here (if we know how to use it in faith), otherwise, Jesus wldnt say this. But nobody is interpreting this verse as our tongue being a magic wand.

countrymouse
01-20-02, 08:59 PM
Andrew,
Please read all of this carefully and thoroughly before you respond.

You said:

"I dont know why u keep bringing up this point. I've never said or implied that the Christian tongue is some sort of magic wand where saying a few words repeatedly (albeit verses) gets us what we want."

Andrew, I do have respect for you and for your responsibility to gain understanding from your own study time. I am not identifying you with WOF teachers; you may identify yourself with them, if you wish. I pray you don't.

I keep bringing up this point because it IS what I have personally heard many WOF teachers claim! Not that they said, "The tongue is a magic wand." But I have heard them say more than once to tell God that he has to do something because he said it in the Bible. They also teach people to claim material things for themselves, claim they drive outrageously expensive cars, live in big houses, and wear the most expensive clothes in order to imitate Jesus! According to them, you just say it, and it happens! That's still sorcery, and it's not what Jesus taught! And no, Andrew, being made in God's image does NOT mean our tongues have the same power as God speaking the world into existence! We reflect his image, but we are not of the same essence! To say, as Kenneth Copeland did, that "when I read where Jesus said, "I Am, I say 'I Am, too!' " is sacrilege and blasphemy!!!

-----

You said:
"All I'm saying is that as the Bible says, life and death is in the power of the tongue. That what we say, can prolong or shorten our lives. That's crystal clear in the Bible."

You are misinterpreting that verse, Andrew! Go back and read my previous 2 posts again, because I'm not going to repeat myself.

-----

You also said:
"We are a royal priesthood. -- kings and priests. In the OT the priest/prophet wld here from God but they tell the king who executes by speaking forth his order, then things happen. so can you see that being also kings in Christ, and having been given authority, we use our tongue to speak forth too?"

Yes we are a royal priesthood! We do have authority over sin, over the enemy. We have authority because we have been restored, and because Christ has put all enemies under his feet, and we reign with him forever! But we do not reign over him, and we are not his equals! We do not tell him what to do! He is the King of kings, and Lord of lords; he is the high priest!

If we can use our tongues just the way God spoke the world into being, (oh, yes, that is just exactly what they've said!) why does any WOF teacher need money to build his headquarters??? Why do they need donations??? They should speak everything they need into existence, and give all the donations to truly worthy causes? Have any of them ever called down fire from heaven onto a soaked altar to show that their God is the real God??? I didn't think so! Show me one literal mountain any of them have moved and thrown into the sea, if you think Christ was speaking to his disciples in a literal manner when he said:

Mark 11: 23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Andrew, not for a minute do I think that you think that Jesus was telling them to go around causing mountains to jump into oceans!
We receive the desires of our hearts when, AND ONLY WHEN, our desires are in line with his. Sometimes, they're not!

And what did James say?

James 5:
1 What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members?
2 You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask.
3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures.
4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.”
14 Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away.
15 Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.”
16 But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil.
17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

This is not at all like WOF teaching!
=====

To sum up:

1. WOF teachers make the believer's authority equal with God's authority. It isn't.

2. WOF teachers teach people to use their faith to demand that God pander to their selfish desires. They tell them that it isn't enough to have reliable transportation, decent clothing, and adequate housing, and enough food to eat in measure with the work they've invested. They teach people to love money, when the Bible tells us that the love of money is the root of all evil! It even tells us to be satisfied with what we have!

1 Timothy 6:
3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness,
4 he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions,
5 and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.
6 But godliness actually is a means of great gain when accompanied by contentment.
7 For we have brought nothing into the world, so we cannot take anything out of it either.
8 If we have food and covering, with these we shall be content.
9 But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction.
10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
11 But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness.

Hebrews 13:
5 Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, “I will never desert you, nor will I ever forsake you,”
6 so that we confidently say,
“The Lord is my helper, I will not be afraid.
What will man do to me?”


Also:
3. WOF teachers say things that demoralize and insult people who have real and great faith, but whom God does not deliver from deformities or crippling injuries. God did not even spare Paul from his "thorn in the flesh," his failing eyesight. Yes, that was Paul's thorn. Does the Bible directly say so? No, but if you read the epistles thoroughly, that is the right and logical conclusion based on the information. Why didn't Paul just use the power of his tongue, if the WOF teachers are right, to speak the problem out of existence?


If you want to know whether my mind is made up on the matter - yes, it is! Do I believe what the Bible says? Absolutely! Do they? Only the parts they want to believe, and only taken far out of context! I want nothing to do with them; I have prayed for them to turn from their deceptions, many people have warned them, and they are in God's hands.

Respectfully,
countrymouse

countrymouse
01-20-02, 09:06 PM
By the way, Andrew,

Have you read Fledge's thread, "Examination of the Word of Faith Movement?" I suggest we continue the discussion there, to encompass more of what the WOF leaders have said.

Andrew
01-20-02, 10:00 PM
Dear countrymouse,

I think it's pointless to carry on as you keep on 'twisting' what I've said and saying things I've never said - blowing things out of proportion.

eg:Andrew, being made in God's image does NOT mean our tongues have the same power as God speaking the world into existence!

eg: But we do not reign over him, and we are not his equals! We do not tell him what to do!

eg: If we can use our tongues just the way God spoke the world into being, (oh, yes, that is just exactly what they've said!)

Did I ever say that we are as powerful as God and that we reign over him??? I never said or implied those things.

And I dont know why you cant keep this discussion betw us and the scriptures quoted, but keep bringing in what so and so said and on which TV show, and adding what they said to what i said.

----------
Andrew, not for a minute do I think that you think that Jesus was telling them to go around causing mountains to jump into oceans!
---------
I simply assumed u were mature enough to know that w/o me having to elaborate. But again, you've missed the point — which is 'speaking/saying' - that's why i bolded the no of times 'saith' appeared.

so if you cant stay focussed, then I'll say no more here cos it just gets out of hand.

Yes I support the WOF cos I know its a move of God. If u want to be against them, that's your right. As for me my household and my church, we will cont to enjoy the blessings it has brought us.

countrymouse
01-20-02, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by Andrew
Dear countrymouse,

I think it's pointless to carry on as you keep on 'twisting' what I've said and saying things I've never said - blowing things out of proportion.

eg:Andrew, being made in God's image does NOT mean our tongues have the same power as God speaking the world into existence!

eg: But we do not reign over him, and we are not his equals! We do not tell him what to do!

eg: If we can use our tongues just the way God spoke the world into being, (oh, yes, that is just exactly what they've said!)

Did I ever say that we are as powerful as God and that we reign over him??? I never said or implied those things.

And I dont know why you cant keep this discussion betw us and the scriptures quoted, but keep bringing in what so and so said and on which TV show, and adding what they said to what i said.




Andrew, if you want to lay this debate to rest, I will respect that. I have not accused you of saying the things the WOF teachers say; your eg's above are my comments about things THEY have said.

I would like to go back to look at the verse you quoted from Mark 11. I think it's important to include verse 24:

ASV
23. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou taken up and cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that what he saith cometh to pass; he shall have it.
24. Therefore I say unto you, All things whatsoever ye pray and ask for, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

KJV
23For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

This verse, taken in its full context, still leads me to the conclusion that I am to ask God in prayer for the help I need. The focus is not on speaking forth, but on believing.

-----

And so, Andrew, I respectfully agree to disagree. It is not you I reject, it is the teachers of the WOF movement.


Please feel free to have the last word, or not. I am still...

Respectfully,
countrymouse

Fledge
01-20-02, 10:54 PM
I propose a cease-fire.
I never intended this thread to turn into a debate. A discussion perhaps, but not so heated for sure. I just thought it would be (and still think it is) good to examine and discuss these false teachings.
But I never wanted anybody to get offended, nor did I want (or expect) a heated debate.
I feel partly responsible because I started the thread and because I have made many a post on the WoF movement and what is wrong with it. And I completely expected discussion, figured there would be those who disagree with what I post...so...my idea still stands. I propose a cease-fire until such a time as discussion can be resumed....
That time being when we can discuss the issues, the false teachings, the doctrines, the activities of "faith teachers" and what the Bible and God says concerning these issues, and not discuss what I said, or countryouse said, or Andrew said, or whoever said.

Stick to the issues and not fight. Discuss, even debate in a nice way...but not on who in the forums said what, but....ANYWAY...you get the picture. I hope.

Andrew
01-21-02, 02:42 AM
countrymouse
--------------
This verse, taken in its full context, still leads me to the conclusion that I am to ask God in prayer for the help I need. The focus is not on speaking forth, but on believing.
------------------

Okay I'll try to be as cool as I can and I have faith that we can still learn something here. Let's just focus on this verse (Mark 11:23,24) in question. Forget WOF for the moment.

Now I'm sure we all agree that God's Word is alive, in the sense that sometimes, when we read the same verse again, years later, we 'see' somthing new, another 'rhema' so to speak. another revelation that God's gives us for our new situation that ministers specially to us. I'm sure you have experienced this.

So yes, countrymouse, what you say "This verse, taken in its full context, still leads me to the conclusion that I am to ask God in prayer for the help I need." is totally true and I agree 100%!

But someone else who meditates on this 2 KJV verses may learn something new too, as the Holy Spirit reveals to him for his situation. And this something 'new' is the fact that "saith" appears 3 times and "pray" only once. So he gets the revelation that there seems to be an emphasis on "saying". So he finds out that perhaps where he is missing it is not so much prayer but ALSO what he is confessing with his mouth. And this is perfectly in line with the context, since if you truly 'believe in your heart you have received', then it ought to flow out of your mouth and actions. (Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks).

eg. say u need God's help to find a new job in this recession. U go to him in prayer. Right there and then you believe you have received. In the mean time, as you search the classifieds and go for interviews, you also say things like "Father I thank you that you have given me a new job", "Lord according to your Word in Mark 11:24, I shall have what I have asked for in faith." "Thank you Jesus for this new job." etc etc, until you see it manifest in the natural....instead of shutting up and wondering if God heard you, or saying things like "Oh this recession is real bad, I'm NEVER gonna get a job!" "I dont think anyone's gonna hire me." etc etc which is basically an 'evil' report (12 spies story).

---------------
The focus is not on speaking forth, but on believing.
---------------
Jesus said this after they saw the dead fig tree which Jesus had cursed with his mouth. The disciples were amazed that his simple words out of his mouth cld be so powerful! Then he told them "Have faith in God, whosoever says.....

I'm not gonna debate with u on what the focus is here but it sure seems like "saying" plays an important role. Our mouth plays a part too. You say the focus is on believing, well if one believes in his heart, wont he also speak it out?

This is exactly what WOF (as far as I'm concerned) stands for. Speaking according to God's Word, as opposed to speaking according to the way the world sees it, when revealed to by the Holy Spirit.

peace

countrymouse
01-21-02, 07:15 AM
Peace to you, also, Andrew!

I will leave WOF out of this if you will! But if you choose to continue to defend them, I believe it is appropriate for me to continue to expose them.

You said (and not the WOF):
"eg. say u need God's help to find a new job in this recession. U go to him in prayer. Right there and then you believe you have received. In the mean time, as you search the classifieds and go for interviews, you also say things like "Father I thank you that you have given me a new job", "Lord according to your Word in Mark 11:24, I shall have what I have asked for in faith." "Thank you Jesus for this new job." etc etc, until you see it manifest in the natural....instead of shutting up and wondering if God heard you, or saying things like "Oh this recession is real bad, I'm NEVER gonna get a job!" "I dont think anyone's gonna hire me." etc etc which is basically an 'evil' report (12 spies story)."

I, too, believe God would have me, in a similar situation, to expect his help and not speak disparagingly about my problems. Despair is not God's will for us, with one exception: God would certainly have us despair over our sin to the point of turning to Him for salvation.

There have been situations I had given up on, and God came through anyway! I'd rather not go into personal details; suffice it to say that God has always been faithful to me. He hasn't taken away every problem, even when I asked in faith; but he has redeemed them all and used them to accomplish good things. I praise him that he is more faithful to me than I am to him!

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You also said earlier, when I appealed to the rule of context, that the Old Covenant promises apply to the church today. If that were true, there would be a Christian church rather than a mosque on the temple mount , and the whole geographical land of Israel would be under Christian political control! We have inherited a better covenant with better promises!

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Also, since you brought the WOF back into this with your last paragraph -

"This is exactly what WOF (as far as I'm concerned) stands for. Speaking according to God's Word, as opposed to speaking according to the way the world sees it, when revealed to by the Holy Spirit."


I stand on what I have already said about them. You keep defending them when it is clear that they mishandle God's word. They've been caught red-handed; their words are recorded for all posterity. I pray they will all repent and retract. In my opinion, no one can love Christ and his word, and also love the things they say. Where is your allegiance?


Respectfully, countrymouse

Debbiek
01-21-02, 08:50 AM
Why did Gloria Copeland say God intended for us to live 70-80 years? Genesis 6:3 says that man's lifespan is 120 years,"And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man,for that he also is flesh:yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."

countrymouse
01-21-02, 05:11 PM
LOL! My parents have defied Gloria Copeland! Dad's 88 and Mom's 85! My maternal grandmother lived to be 98, and my paternal grandfather lived to be 93! I thank God for the long lives he gave them, and I hope my folks will be around as long as they can enjoy life. And if anyone should have been long gone for saying negative things, it would be my Puddleglum dad! He's precious in spite of it, though!