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JC FR3AK
12-18-01, 03:16 PM
As I write a new book is sweeping Christians off of their feet. The prayer of Jabez is a New York Times bestseller and even the likes of DC Talk are singing it's praises (no pun intended) but how beneficial is it? Is it realy all that simple to get to know God better? Can you have a 'magic formula' which you pray every day just to get closer to Jesus? I don't think so. What is everone elses views on this?

GRANTM
12-18-01, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by JC FR3AK
As I write a new book is sweeping Christians off of their feet. The prayer of Jabez is a New York Times bestseller and even the likes of DC Talk are singing it's praises (no pun intended) but how beneficial is it? Is it realy all that simple to get to know God better? Can you have a 'magic formula' which you pray every day just to get closer to Jesus? I don't think so. What is everone elses views on this?

Do not Know the book , So I can not make a comment about the substance in it,

But yes in my case once I truly asked the question, he was there immediately, It was so simple, when you ask for directions he gives them to you, he will Guide But he
will not take you by the hand and take you there,
he will give indications and show you which way to go.
but he will not take you there that you have to do yourself.

The "magic formula" will not come from a book, a church, or even a religion, the "magic formula" lies within you, each person has their own formula. It may include all of the above or none, God will guide you to your "magic formula", as for getting closer to God
God is always with us , he flows through us every second of every millenium, How close do you want? all you have to do is listen not merely hear,

However some religions and even some churches with-in christianity, operate This way, It's called Daily Prayer,
Nothing wrong with it,

What ever turns you on.

mickey1
12-18-01, 05:36 PM
This is just a thought but perhaps there is a "magical formula". If there is,why has no one heard of it till now? I agree with GRANTM - the formula depends on the person.

mickey

JC FR3AK
12-20-01, 02:13 PM
When I said 'magic formula' I meant that the book has the same tone as a street vendor shouting "ROLL UP ROLL UP for just 7.99 I will give you a book with a special prayer which will get you more in touch with God!" This is further backed up by the tremendous amount of merchandise which says to me that Bruce Wilkinson is just out for a profit.

GRANTM
12-20-01, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by JC FR3AK
When I said 'magic formula' I meant that the book has the same tone as a street vendor shouting "ROLL UP ROLL UP for just 7.99 I will give you a book with a special prayer which will get you more in touch with God!" This is further backed up by the tremendous amount of merchandise which says to me that Bruce Wilkinson is just out for a profit.


Alas, sadly, but How much different is that than todays tele-evangelists? or

Churches that charge admission to Christmas services oops excuse me, thats not true, they ask for a prepaid donation to send you a ticket because of possible limited seating, 25$ per person recommended, Included with that donation will be.....
you get the drift,

Shows that people worship the middleman though doesn't it.
They want to find God but get caught up in the middlemans trappings.

Fledge
12-20-01, 11:10 PM
I honestly don't know if The Prayer of Jabez was written just for the purpose of raking in the cash, but it looks like it is doing that.
Somebody's got it made financially now!

There is no "magic formla" or a "prayer mantra" that you can say to "get rich" or to "be blessed" or to "have it all" or to "be just like him (the writer)" if you repeat the prayer for 30 days.

That sounds like one of those "name it and claim it" faith formulas to me.

JC FR3AK
12-28-01, 01:09 PM
Having reviewed the balence between the apparent cost of making the book with the cost of buying the book I think it is just another moneyspinner. I make a habit of never trusting an evangelist in an expensive suit and having done a little research I have never seen him in anything else! What I would say though is don't buy the book, don't buy the merchandise but do pray the prayer because although it is not a working 'be blessed instantly' formula it is still a good way to ask for evangelistic oppertunitys. I would go as far as to say it is one of the best ways of phrasing it (if not the best) I have ever come across.

Oh that you would bless me indeed
That you would enlarge my territory
And that you would keep me from evil
That I might not cause pain

Knock and the door shall be open unto you

GRANTM
12-29-01, 04:54 PM
Your right on there,

Debbiek
01-02-02, 06:03 PM
As far as the poll goes, Jabez is from God because it is 4 lines of scripture from the book of Chronicles. I think the author is sincere, I also think we need to know the WAY to pray. This is just one of many books which have been written on the way to pray. I enjoyed his $9.00 book. It's my understanding he has been preaching about this one thing for 30 yrs & finally made it into a book. "Render to Cesear what is Cesear's & render to God what is God's". Why is it ok for the devil's apostles to have all the money? Why do Christians find fault with an apostle or teacher making a nice living doing God's work? I don't want my preacher coming up to the pulpit on Sunday looking like he lives in poverty. If he did, the church members should be ashamed. The author of this 92 page little book has something to add to the church, for the benefit of the church, & it is based on scripture. I don't care if the author takes his family on vacation to Hawaii with the dough he made and buys a new house while he's there.

man in the box
01-17-02, 09:20 PM
I am way late in responding to this but hey why not? I can see how some may see The Prayer of Jabez as name it claim it theology but it is not. It is important to know the man who wrote the book. I heard him speak this message at Cedarville College in January 1992. Incredible and life changing. This book is designed to change your prayer life and give you a model in which to pray about your own spirituality and your families. I challenge everyone to read that book. If you have already read it read it again.

Fledge
01-17-02, 11:51 PM
Jesus already gave us the most thorough and concise model for prayer. I'll stick with what Jesus says. ;)

Andrew
01-18-02, 12:57 AM
Besides the Bible, Jesus also gave gifts to the church - preachers and pastors and evangelists.

Besides just preaching from the pulpit, they can also preach thru books and reach a wider audience.

And making money by selling Christian books is Biblical. Jesus did say that those who preach the gospel full-time can make a living out of it. And since he came to give us abundant life and that a priority wish is that we prosper (material) and be in health even as our soul propsers (spiritual), i dont see why that shld be a meagre living.

kiwimac
01-18-02, 01:35 AM
:cool:

Folks,

For me the question is not: "is someone making money out of this" but "will this (thing) do any harm?", as far as I can tell the Prayer of Jabez can't hurt anyone & may well led those who do see God as a kind of heavenly slot machine out of that particular delusion.

Kiwimac

Fledge
01-18-02, 10:18 AM
The praer of Jabez could (NOT saying it WILL, or HAS...just that it is a possibility that it could) lead people into a false hope of expectation that God will do what we tell Him to do as if He was our puppet, or that He exists to do our will.

Fledge
01-18-02, 10:20 AM
WHEREAS, following the example of prayer that Jesus, God Himself, gave us will lead us into dependence on Him. Will form our wills and desire to match His. Rather than using prayer as a way to "get stuff" from God, Jesus' model of prayer will bring us into a closer relationship with Him and bend our wills to His.

jhamrick
01-18-02, 10:41 AM
I voted "Don't know", because I haven't read the book. I personally think the church is too eager to buy into any gimmick to magically transform their lives from mundane to spirit-filled, without spending the necessary time in communion with the Lord. Therefore, I usually steer clear of these type of things, opting for the narrow route.

man in the box
01-18-02, 08:17 PM
Somehow I knew someone would take my comment out of context. This book is a way to get your thinking changed about prayer. Not looking at God as a Santa Claus but honestly desiring God to work through you in whatever capacity that God wills. If you mumble these words like it is a secret formula then your words will get no further than the ceiling. If you pray these words with an honest and sincere heart wanting God to use you for His glory then I believe you will see change in your life.

Psalm 37. 4 " Delight yourself also in the Lord, and He shall give you the desires of your heart."

This verse sums up the book "The Prayer of Jabez."
If we wholly submit to God our desires will change to be more like his.

P.S. How come nobody says anything about Tim Lahaye and his milking of the End Times Fiction series he is writing? Just a thought.

countrymouse
01-18-02, 08:45 PM
Hello, man in the box, and welcome to the forums!

You might be interested in starting a thread in the eschatology forum about LaHaye's book series. I'm sure you'll get several responses. I haven't read any of his books, personally.

Andrew
01-18-02, 11:37 PM
man in the box,
WELCOME!
------------
P.S. How come nobody says anything about Tim Lahaye and his milking of the End Times Fiction series he is writing? Just a thought.
------------

I think that's becos many here (not me) are against anything that sounds like WOF doctrine, in this case, prospering. *LOL* :D

btw: just bought the book and another called Laws of Prosperity by Kenneth Copeland, and am gonna find out more 'secrets' as to how God prospers his people!

PastorChazz
02-04-02, 12:20 AM
Some thoughts on the book, and the author:

1) I've heard David Wilkerson speak a few times, and have only been impressed with his obvious devotion to the Lord Jesus, and his desire to see others come into an ever closer relationship with their heavenly Father.

2) One poster stated "I make a habit of never trusting an evangelist in an expensive suit ..." Seems to me God measures a man by what is inside, not outside.

3) Concerning the amount of money made by the book ... what is wrong with that? Do you have any idea what the profits from the book are being used for? Perhaps. they are being sowed back into the cause of the Gospel!

4) Concerning the Lord's prayer ... yes, it is an example and pattern for a portion of our prayer life. However, there are many other prayers recorded in scripture that give us insight on how to boldly approach the throne of Grace. There is nothing in the prayer of Jabez that is not in agreement with the Lord's prayer.

5) Lastly, it seems as if Dr. Wilkerson is being judged by how others could MISUSE his insights. Anything can be misused is someone is so resolved, even the Word of God. I would prefer to take Dr. Wilkerson at his word when he states his sole desire is to see people come into closer relationship with the Lord and for the Kingdom to be increased.

Raised
02-04-02, 01:44 AM
AMEN PastorChazz!
;)

Jeffreyw
02-08-02, 04:09 PM
I have read a book by E.W. Kenyon entitled The Power of Your Words where he teaches every Christian to continually speak or confess positive words inspite of what circumstances you are in, if your feet is bursting in pain speak positively or verbally speak out the scriptures about healing over and over even if you are doubting and healing doesn't come right away. I followed the "magic formula" suggested by the author, it really helped me a lot, it increased my faith in the Lord.

Now, about the The Prayer of Jabez: It is basically the same as the book of E.W. Kenyon. Wilkinson's book further helped and increased my faith and dependency in the Lord in every area of my life.

There are people who are so quick to comment negatively about The Prayer of Jabez, but have not read book.

Fledge
02-08-02, 10:18 PM
Well, if Wilkinson's book is very similar to anything by Kenyon...that is reason enough to stay clear of it!

Kenyn once said that "the believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus". (From Kenyon's book The Father and His Family.

Oh boy. Another "I'm a god" preacher. maybe he was mormon, or in the Christian Science movement or influenced by "new thought metaphysics"...but that's not Bible teaching!!

Oh yea. Kenyon also preached that Jesus' death wasn't necessary.

"If Jesus' physical death could pay the penalty of sin as some contend, then why is it necessary that a Christian die? If a Christian dies physically, does he not pay the penalty of his own sin?
But we hold that the physical death of Jesus did not touch the sin issue at all."

Face it, read the Bible..that is blatantly and simply wrong.

Kenyon also coined the phrase "What I confess I posses" in his book The Hidden Man.

Jeffreyw
02-09-02, 06:26 AM
Originally posted by Fledge
[B]Well, if Wilkinson's book is very similar to anything by Kenyon...that is reason enough to stay clear of it!

Kenyn once said that "the believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus". (From Kenyon's book The Father and His Family.

Oh boy. Another "I'm a god" preacher. maybe he was mormon, or in the Christian Science movement or influenced by "new thought metaphysics"...but that's not Bible teaching!!

Oh yea. Kenyon also preached that Jesus' death wasn't necessary.......


Now, if you think those writers are at fault or its readers like me are into some wrong teaching, have you already prayed to our God that those writers will come into the light and the lost readers will be enlightened since you are so good in criticizing.

Have you read the books by Wilkinson, E.W. Kenyon? If you haven't read any of it, please stop the yaking.

What can you say about the writings of Kenneth Hagin?

Does your pastor preached to you correct teachings? Since writing a book is basically similar to preaching. Writing is preaching on paper.

Jeffreyw
02-09-02, 06:55 AM
When there are times that i doubt God's ability, i pray and confess Philippians 4:13, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."

Seometimes when I am in doubt about God's existence, i pray and confess Hebrews 11:6, "...because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

When I desire for God to bless and use me more, i pray and confess the prayer of Jabez.
;)

Try it!

countrymouse
02-09-02, 08:01 AM
Good morning, everyone!

My Sunday School class used Wilkinson's book for a series of lessons. Wilkinson, true to his dispensationalist training (Dallas Baptist Seminary), found much more in the prayer than is actually there. If you read Jabez' prayer in the Bible, and study the chapters surrounding it, you'll find that Jabez does not appear in the geneology; he "pops in" with no prior mention except that one or two chapters back, there's a reference to a place named after him.

Jabez was most likely not an Israelite, but he recognized Israel's God as God, humbled himself, and asked for protection and blessing. God was pleased, and granted him his request, and inspired the writer of 1 Chronicles to record Jabez' name and deed for all posterity!

Jabez set a good example, and there is no harm in following it. We just need to remember that the blessings we ask for may not be the ones we get; God may have something better in mind. :)

Brandan
02-09-02, 08:07 AM
If I had to choose a prayer to model all of my prayers after, it would have to be the Lord's prayer.

countrymouse
02-09-02, 08:10 AM
I agree! It supercedes the prayer of Jabez just as the promises of the New Covenant supercede the promises of the Old Covenant. Our blessings are spiritual.

Brandan
02-09-02, 08:21 AM
Amen Dianne!

I believe one of the chief problems of the church today is they look to Jesus for their salvation, then they go back to the Old Covenant for their ethics. How tragic...

It seems everyone has forgotten the transfiguration...

Lk 9:28-36, (NASB)
28 Some eight days after these sayings, He took along Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray.
29 And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming.
30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah,
31 who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.
32 Now Peter and his companions had been overcome with sleep; but when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men standing with Him.
33 And as these were leaving Him, Peter said to Jesus, "Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three tabernacles: one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah" not realizing what he was saying.
34 While he was saying this, a cloud formed and began to overshadow them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud.
35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"
36 And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent, and reported to no one in those days any of the things which they had seen.


Listen to Him! Who? Not Moses... Not Elijah... Not Jabez... but the man standing alone up on the mountain.

Jeffreyw
02-09-02, 08:31 AM
The Lord's prayer is still my model prayer, but do you really have to follow it everytime you pray?

Look what Peter when he prayed to the man a beggar in the Beautiful Gate, "Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk." Acts 2...

The Lord's prayer is still the model prayer, i just have to fill in the prayer of Jabez in the line: Give us today our daily bread....;)

Fledge
02-09-02, 08:53 AM
Have you read the books by Wilkinson, E.W. Kenyon? If you haven't read any of it, please stop the yaking.
First and foremst A...Jeffrey....mellow out.
Second of all. I have read some of Wilkinson's books. Including the Prayer of Jabez.



What can you say about the writings of Kenneth Hagin?
Glad you asked!!
Hagin was a follower of Kenyon...nearly a carbdon copy of Kenyon.
He copies much of Kenyon's and, to an extent, plagiarizes.

Christ's physical death on the cross was not enough to save us.
How Jesus obtained His Name, Tape 44H01

"[Man] was created on terms of equality with God, and he could stand in God's presence without any consciousness of inferiority...God made us as much like Himself as possible...He made us the same class of being that He is Himself...Man lived in the realm of God. He lived on terms equal with God...[The] believer is called Christ...That's who we are; we're Christ"
"Zoe: The God-Kind of Life," 1989. pp. 35-36, 41

"You are as much the incarnation of God as Jesus Christ was...the believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth."
"Word Of Faith" Dec. 1980, p. 14

So yea, basically Hagin is a Kenyon "wannabe", and to be avoided just as Kenyon's teachings should be avoided.

Jeffreyw
02-09-02, 10:36 AM
Listen to Him! Who? Not Moses... Not Elijah... Not Jabez... but the man standing alone up on the mountain.

Okay thank you for the knowledge imparted. I'll just have to listen only Jesus's words, not those what Elijah and Moses have uttered---all of it. Including this: Afterward Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: `Let my people go, so that they may hold a festival to me in the desert.'" It was Moses and Aaron. I should have not listen to Moses (or Aaron)


I agree! It supercedes the prayer of Jabez just as the promises of the New Covenant supercede the promises of the Old Covenant. Our blessings are spiritual.

How about the promises written in Proverbs, Psalms.

This following verse is a promised too, right? 1 Samuel 16:7: Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart.
This other one is a promise too, I believe: in Jeremiah: I have love you with an everlasting love and I have drawn you with loving-kindness.

Fledge:
Are you sure your pastor or you preached/teached correct teachings? Since writing a book is basically similar to preaching. Writing is preaching on paper.

Have you already prayed for these ministers you mentioned?

Are you sure all of your "corrections or exposes" to these ministers' crooked teachings correct?

How about the teachings of Kenneth Copeland?

What's your opinion on Christian Rock?

Fledge
02-09-02, 11:17 AM
Look around a little bit, you will find MUCH on Kenneth Copeland that I have posted. Copeland is as bad, theologically, as they come. So is Hinn.


Are you sure all of your "corrections or exposes" to these ministers' crooked teachings correct?
Honestly? In all sincerity? Yes, I believe they are biblical and correct. Do I believe I could be a little off on some issues? Yes? Do I push blatant heresy? No. Are my pastors, teachers, the authors that I read doctrinally sound? YES. Are they always 100% correct? I doubt it.
Do they strive to gain a fuller understanding of our Lord and His Word? Yes, I believe they do.
And do they base everything they preach or write about on His Word? Yes. Do they seek Biblical understand? Yes.


The question is...are they biblically sound on the essentials (deity of Christ, salvation, faith).

Let me ask you something.
Do the WoF teacher preach things not totally correct?
Do they hold to Biblical, orthodox, dotrinally sound teachings? Do they desire material gain, and are a big chunk of their teaching based around material gain?
Do they preach that God is our puppet and if we follow the correct "formula" that God is obliged to cater to our every whim?
Do they teach that if we are sick, or our bodies broken, that we cannot serve God and that we are in rebellious sin and useless to Him?
To they preach that we are gods? (As New Agers and Mormons believe) Do they preach that Jesus' death was useless? Do they teach that Jesus had to become a wormy, little spirit in hell, being tormented by Satan in order to pay for our salvation? (regardless that Satan isn't in hell as of yet and that Jesus said "It Is Finished" on the cross)

Do the WoF teachers teach that we can create, from our own words and "positive/negative confessions" our own reality (much like the new thought metaphycis teach?

Do they teach that God had to find a "loophole" because way back in Abraham's day, He (God) had no way to work in and on the earth...despite the fact that He is God and made the place and that everything happens because He allows, causes, or permits it to happen?

Do they deify Satan..giving him much more power and credit that he deserves?


The answer, in case you are confused on the issue, is YES, they teach all those things.
I am NOT taking into consideration their unbiblical practices (their abuse of tongues, being "slain in the spirit", so-called "healings", offering God's blessings for money (as if they can hand out what God alone controls).
I am not taking into account the physical damage innocent people have suffered due to "manifestations" of the spirit (false spirits, if they are anything).
I am not taking into consideration their use of psycho-social manipulation, nor am I talking about their demand that you "experience" their "signs and wonders" and that if you question or disagree with them you are labeled a sinner and damned to hell.
I am not taking into consideration that the vast majority of their "prophecies" are either false, or made after the fact. I am also not taking into account that they threaten, curse, and belittle those who make statements against them, unlike Paul who COMMENDED and RESPECTED the Bereans for being just a little skeptical and checking things out for themselves. Paul praised the Bereans for checking his words against The Word!





My opinion on Christian Rock?
Some of it is good (in their lyrics and message), some of it is way off base, some of it makes a good point without being biblical. My opinion is, be careful what you listen to, and don't base your theology on the words of the music. I like rock music. I listen to a lot of it, both Christian and non-christian. I like country music even better. Is it all Godly and good? No. But I also know what to listen for and an appropriate view of the music.
Being a musician (by hobby, and in performing in several bands, high school, jr. high, choir, band, etc.) I love music. Music is, has, and will be a big part of my life.

Fledge
02-09-02, 11:31 AM
Oh, and by the way Jeffrey...


Okay thank you for the knowledge imparted. I'll just have to listen only Jesus's words, not those what Elijah and Moses have uttered---all of it.

You are more than permitted to disagree....just lay off the sarcastic and smart attitude.

Try to keep things intelligent and calm.

I'm not going to make a big fuss about it, cause I am guilty of it myself sometimes, and apologize to all I may have been that way with.

BUT...we do need to try not to "get an attitude" when we are in discussion, debate, or disagreement.

Jeffreyw
02-09-02, 12:08 PM
Fledge: I'll try to be modest this time.


Do they preach that God is our puppetand if we follow the correct "formula" that God is obliged to cater to our every whim?

Seriously,(no sarcasm intended;) ) did they really preached that God is our puppet? If they did, i'll burn all of their write-ups that i have, and will never listen or read of them in the future. I have already erased Morris Cerullo in my list, it started when he (mistakenly) prophesied about the Y2K crash.

Can't answer all of your questions, you're right I'm confused, but that doesn't mean i will believe you right away. I like to be like the Bereans.

Do you believe in speaking in tongues? I only need Yes or No.

Fledge
02-09-02, 12:46 PM
If you look at their teacings, faith, words are the containers of our faith, faith is a force, if you "do things the right way" or if you "pray the right way" or use the proper "formula of faith", then you will get whatever you ask. They don't leave room for God saying "You don't need that" or "Not right now".
They claim, that if you follow the right formula, pray the right way, speak your faith or positively confess whatever, then God WILL do whatever you ask Him to do. Which, in my view constitues treating God as a cosmic butler, our puppet who exists to provide whatever we want, whenever we want.

Have these guys taught, in exact words, that God is our puppet? I do not believe I have seen that one yet. But, because of what they teach and how they teach it, they show little respect for God's sovereignty and expect Him to ask how high when we say jump.

PastorChazz
02-09-02, 01:25 PM
Some more thoughts:

1) Any prayer recorded in Scripture is worthy of examination obviously the prayer must reveal a portion of the will of God or He would not have answered it. Thus, the prayer of Jabez is worth of examination.

2) There is no evidence to support the idea Jabez was not an Israelite. Also, the point of his nationality is not relevant. What is relevant is that he had the ear of God and prayed according to the will of God.

3) One of the points Wilkerson makes it that it seems as if God is drawing attention to Jabez because he is the ONLY one in the genealogy that any mention of his nature is mentioned.

4) You can only listen to Jesus if you take the full context of Scripture. If only the "words in red" were important, that is all God would have given us in scripture. Of course, all revelation is understood in the light of Christ. That is not to say that the Old Testament is irrelevant. If the will of God was to bless Jabez so that he might influence his generation for God then that is still the will of God and we should pray toward that end.

5) Faith teachers: no, none have ever said that God is our "puppet" In fact, neither have they taught their teachings as "formulas." This is a sweeping conclusion made by many apologists. Every "faith teacher" I know teaches that the most vital thing is relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. I don't agree with much of their individual teachings and emphasis. Having said that, their is MUCH more emphasis placed on the teaching of "positive confession" of the faith teachers by apologists than by the faith teachers themselves.

Jeffreyw
02-09-02, 02:16 PM
Pastor Chazz, I believe we are both on the same boat.;). All I need to post is you already have posted and all that you will post in the future.


Fledge, you are right, words are the container of our faith, and you need to be careful with the words of your conclusions, accusations, exposes-like the "God is our puppet."

Again, do you believe in speaking in tongues?

Fledge, I'll tell you the miracles, and the new territories that God has for me in the future. But I hope you will believe me.

countrymouse
02-09-02, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by Jeffreyw


How about the promises written in Proverbs, Psalms.

This following verse is a promised too, right? [B]1 Samuel 16:7: Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart.
This other one is a promise too, I believe: in Jeremiah: I have love you with an everlasting love and I have drawn you with loving-kindness.

Jeffrey, those are statements, not promises. A promise has a different language construction, for example: "I will be back in fifteen minutes." A promise is a statement of intent.

There are many statements in the Old Testament that are eternal truths about God, just like the ones you quoted. But we have to see the difference between those and the promises that were tied to obeying the laws of the Old Covenant. That covenant has been replaced with the New Covenant, whose promises are better. Why are they better? Because they're spiritual.

The Old Covenant promises were material: physical health and long life, many children, material well-being. But no one could ever manage to keep the Old Covenant laws. Even if they could have, the sacrificing of animals could not give eternal life.

Our blessings under the New Covenant are spiritual, and cannot be taken away from us by old age, theft, rust, or moth. We can all keep the New Covenant, because its condition for us is belief, and through regeneration, God has made it our nature to believe!

We can learn so very much from studying the Old Testament, but we have to remember that the Old Covenant was only temporary, as were its promises.


cm

Jeffreyw
02-09-02, 03:31 PM
Jeffrey, those are statements, not promises...


My reaction after reading it:
:D :)

PastorChazz
02-09-02, 09:13 PM
Thoughts on the Covenants,

1) I would disagree with the statement that the NC "replaced" the OC ... rather, Scriptures teaches that the OC is fulfilled in the NC.

2) To state that the OC is strictly material and the NC is strictly spiritual also denies the teaching of Scripture. The material blessings of the OC came ONLY through drawing close to God and resulting obedience. The Old Testament writes often make the declaration that is what is inside of a man that God looks out. Also, the NC as revealed in the New Testament regularly speak of the material blessings that come in obedience to God's will.

3) The OC was not "temporary" ... rather it was fulfilled.

4) Lastly, the Bible is clear that the OC blessings were only attained by believing the revealed will of God, and being correspondingly obedient.

Brandan
02-09-02, 09:56 PM
Heb 8:6-13, (NIV)
6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
8 But God found fault with the people and said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
11 No longer will a man teach his neighbour, or a man his brother, saying, `Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
13 By calling this covenant "new", he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and ageing will soon disappear.

countrymouse
02-10-02, 05:33 AM
NAS Romans 3:9-12
9. What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10. as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11. THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12. ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

NAS James 2:10
10. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one {point,} he has become guilty of all.


NAS Romans 3:19-20
19. Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
20. because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law {comes} the knowledge of sin.

NAS Romans 3:21-25
21. But now apart from the Law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22. even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24. being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25. whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.

NAS Romans 4:8-10
8. "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."
9. Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
10. How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;

NAS Romans 4:13-14
13. For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14. For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;

NAS Romans 5:20-21
20. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21. so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

NAS Romans 7:4
4. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

NAS Romans 7:7-8
7. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
8. But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin {is} dead.

NAS Romans 7:9-14
9. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10. and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11. for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
12. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13. Therefore did that which is good become {a cause} {of} death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
The Conflict of Two Natures
14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

NAS Romans 8:3-4
3. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God {did:} sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and {as an offering} for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4. so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

NAS Romans 8:7-8
7. because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able {to do so,}
8. and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

NAS Romans 9:31-32
31. but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at {that} law.
32. Why? Because {they did} not {pursue it} by faith, but as though {it were} by works.

NAS Romans 10:3
3. For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

NAS Romans 10:5-9
5. For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.
6. But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),
7. or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."
8. But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9. that if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

NAS 1 Corinthians 15:56-57
56. The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
57. but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

NAS Galatians 2:15-16
15. "We {are} Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;
16. nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

NAS Galatians 2:19-21
19. "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.
20. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the {life} which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
21. "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

NAS Galatians 3:2-3
2. This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3. Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

NAS Galatians 3:5
5. So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

NAS Galatians 3:9-14
9. So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
10. For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."
11. Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
12. However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."
13. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--
14. in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

countrymouse
02-10-02, 05:41 AM
NAS Galatians 3:15-21
15. Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is {only} a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it.
16. Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as {referring} to many, but {rather} to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.
17. What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
18. For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
19. Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
20. Now a mediator is not for one {party only;} whereas God is {only} one.
21. Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.

NAS Galatians 3:24-25
24. Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

NAS Galatians 4:1-11
1. Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything,
2. but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father.
3. So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world.
4. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
5. so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
7. Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.
8. However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.
9. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?
10. You observe days and months and seasons and years.
11. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

NAS Galatians 4:21-31
21. Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?
22. For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
23. But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
24. This is allegorically speaking, for these {women} are two covenants: one {proceeding} from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
25. Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26. But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
27. For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."
28. And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29. But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him {who was born} according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
30. But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."
31. So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

NAS Ephesians 2:13-16
13. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14. For He Himself is our peace, who made both {groups into} one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
15. by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, {which is} the Law of commandments {contained} in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, {thus} establishing peace,
16. and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

NAS Genesis 3:15
15. And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed;

NAS Galatians 3:8-12
8. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, {saying,} "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."
9. So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
10. For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."
11. Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
12. However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."

NAS Philippians 3:3-11
3. for we are the {true} circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
4. although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:
5. circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
6. as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.
7. But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9. and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from {the} Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,
10. that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11. in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

NAS 1 Timothy 1:8-11
8. But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9. realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10. and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
11. according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

NAS Hebrews 7:11-12
11. Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need {was there} for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?
12. For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

NAS Hebrews 7:18-19
18. For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness
19. (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

NAS Hebrews 7:28
28. For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, {appoints} a Son, made perfect forever.

NAS Hebrews 8:6
6. But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

NAS Hebrews 10:1
1. For the Law, since it has {only} a shadow of the good things to come {and} not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.

NAS Hebrews 10:4
4. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

======

The Old Covenant, which is the same as the Law, was spiritual in and of itself, but the people were only flesh. Its promises, other than "I will be their God, and they will be my people," were material, being long physical life and health, success in endeavors, a geographical home, and national autonomy. Nowhere in the Bible will you find that eternal life was part of the contract of the Law! Only through faith in the promise, the gospel, could anyone obtain eternal life. The only promise that carries over from the Old to the New Covenant is "I will be their God and they will be my people." God is our God, and we are his people here on earth as well as in heaven.

Brandan
02-10-02, 08:35 AM
Heb 10:9, (NAS), then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will." He takes away the first in order to establish the second.

2 Cor 3:11-13, (KJV), For if that which is done away . . . that which is abolished

When Jesus died on the cross "the veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rocks were broken apart" (Mt 27:51; cf., Heb 9:7-8). This decisive, supernatural act visibly demonstrated the end of the Old Covenant and the establishment of the New.

Also, I'd like to point out that the Old Covenant was a law covenant made with the nation of Israel. It wasn't made with the gentiles, nor was it made with Christ's New Covenant people. Also, the OC demanded perfect obedience by Israel if they were to receive any promised blessings (Ex. 19:3-6). The primary function of the Old Covenant was a ministry of death (2 Cor. 3:6-9) and was a tutor to lead the Israelites to Christ (Gal. 3:24,25).

Israel as a nation was simply just a picture of the people of God, but not the REAL people of God, and were ultimately rejected by God.

PastorChazz
02-10-02, 10:18 AM
1) CM, you stated "The Old Covenant, which is the same as the Law, was spiritual in and of itself, but the people were only flesh"

This is incorrect, in Genesis God declares that man was made in the likeness of God, how then can people of ANY time be "only flesh"?

I appreciate all the cutting and pasting of the texts, but that does not change what I said. Please note that at NO time did I say the OC was still in effect ... I simply said that Jesus fulfilled it.

2) Next, you state: "Nowhere in the Bible will you find that eternal life was part of the contract of the Law! Only through faith in the promise, the gospel, could anyone obtain eternal life."

This too is incorrect. None of the OC believers knew the "gospel" of the NC. Yet scripture is very clear that they were saved. How" yes, by faith in the "promise" of the coming provision for sin ... even though they knew not what that provision would be.

3) Kermie, I agree totally with your statement concering the death of Christ and the institution of the New Covenant.

4) While the OC was made with the people of Israel ... anyone who chose to believe was included in its provisions. Just look at the Hebrews "hall of faith" and see how many Gentiles are included!

5) I totally reject the notion that Israel were not, and are not, the REAL people of God as Kermie puts it. How many times does the Bible have to declare that covenant is an "everlasting" covenant??!!

The NT teaches that a believing Israel will one day be grafted back in. Yes, that means believeing in the Messiah Jesus but it does also mean that God has not, nor ever will, give up on His people Israel.

countrymouse
02-10-02, 07:49 PM
[/B]
Originally posted by PastorChazz
1) CM, you stated "The Old Covenant, which is the same as the Law, was spiritual in and of itself, but the people were only flesh"

This is incorrect, in Genesis God declares that man was made in the likeness of God, how then can people of ANY time be "only flesh"?

First, it will help to know that you and I approach these issues from two different systematic theologies. Your remarks reveal that your theology is dispensational (in the tradition of John Nelson Darby). I read the Bible from a different doctrinal model, from a covenantal context.

We differ in what we believe it means that humans were created in the image of God. There has certainly been plenty debate on the issue, with ideas ranging from rationality to dominion (position of authority) to having magical powers (like disappearing and reappearing instantaneously on the moon).

Let's look at some Pauline reasoning:
[/B]
NAS Romans 7:9-14
9. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10. and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11. for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.[/B]

At first glance, it would seem that Paul was talking about himself. However, Paul had not begun his life as "alive apart from the Law," for he was born a Jew, under the Law. Who was Paul describing?

Well, let's look at Adam and Eve. God placed Adam in the garden, in his presence, and gave him the responsibility of taking care of it. Then he gave Adam a law: don't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He gave Adam a suitable helper. So far, we have Adam and Eve as God's representatives in the world he created for them; there were all the conditions of a covenant.
What happened? One temptation and they broke covenant! One temptation!

Adam and Eve had been "alive" (having fellowship with God, through covenant relationship), and then sin took opportunity through the commandment, killing Adam and all who came after him.

Everyone, from that time on, was dead in trespasses, although they still bore God's image. Whether or not it is proper to say that the people were merely flesh, it IS correct to say that they were ALL dead in sin. Could they become alive through the Law? No, because (1) animal sacrifices could not atone for sin, and because (2) no one ever managed to keep 100% of the Law's requirements. Dead people can't keep covenants.

(continued in next post)

countrymouse
02-10-02, 08:18 PM
[/B]

2) Next, you state: "Nowhere in the Bible will you find that eternal life was part of the contract of the Law! Only through faith in the promise, the gospel, could anyone obtain eternal life."

None of the OC believers knew the "gospel" of the NC. Yet scripture is very clear that they were saved. How" yes, by faith in the "promise" of the coming provision for sin ... even though they knew not what that provision would be.[/B]


NAS Galatians 3:8-12
8. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, {saying,} "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."


You also know that Moses taught Israel the gospel promise as it had first been stated to the serpent. The woman's seed would overcome the serpent!

Therefore, everyone in the "faith hall of fame" had faith in the gospel! The NC gospel is not different from the OC promise, just more detailed.


[/B]

5) I totally reject the notion that Israel were not, and are not, the REAL people of God as Kermie puts it. How many times does the Bible have to declare that covenant is an "everlasting" covenant??!![/B]

I know this is an objection to something Kermie posted, but permit me to respond as well, if you will.
[/B]
Genesis 17:
7. "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
8. "I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."
9. God said further to Abraham, "Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.
10. "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.
11. "And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you.
12. "And every male among you who is eight days old shall be circumcised throughout your generations, a {servant} who is born in the house or who is bought with money from any foreigner, who is not of your descendants.
13. "A {servant} who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14. "But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."[/B]

It was an everlasting CONDITIONAL covenant! Circumcision was the first condition, the Law of Moses being added later. Anyone who did not meet the condition would be cut off from the people. Notice also that the reward was (1) God would be the God of Abraham and his descendants (the only promise that carried over), and (2), he would give them a geographical homeland.

There is continuity, in that the first promise (to be their God) was carried over, and in that Christ fulfilled the covenant for his elect. Circumcision was the foreshadow of regeneration (circumcision of the heart). When the New Covenant was finally enacted, it "swallowed up" the Old Covenant. All of the first believers were Jews, who were then joined by Gentiles being "grafted in." All the elect Jews believed (eventually), therefore "all Israel" was indeed saved. That addresses your next objection:


[/B]

The NT teaches that a believing Israel will one day be grafted back in. Yes, that means believeing in the Messiah Jesus but it does also mean that God has not, nor ever will, give up on His people Israel. [/B]

No, God did not give up on his people, Israel, for the promise of the New Covenant was given to them! See Jeremiah 31:31ff. Gentiles didn't become a new and separate covenant people; we were grafted in, so that the enmity was done away with and the two became one! The New Covenant community, the church, IS Israel. There is only one way to participate in the New Covenant, and that is through faith in Christ!

Respectfully,
cm

PastorChazz
02-14-02, 09:41 AM
CM,

1) Yes, I realize that we may approach this discussion from two different theological perspectives. However, the point remains that the people of the Old Testament were not "only flesh." I agree that they were all dead in sin, but to say "only flesh" is not only improper, but misconstrues how God relates to man. The reason I press this point is because God has ALWAYS dealt with man according to the spirit and not according to the flesh.

2) I would disagree with you on your use of the term "gospel" referring to the shadows and types of Jesus in the OT. The NT is clear that the "gospel" is the message of Jesus Christ as the ransom for sin. There was no "good news" in the Law, as kermie pointed out in an earlier post, one of the chief roles of the Law is to point out the need for a Savior.

3) I also agree that the OC was conditional, but then again EVERY covenant is conditional. What is NOT conditional is the "everlasting" nature of the covenant. I also agree that OC was summed up and fulfilled in the NC. I also agree that the only way to participate in the New Covenant is through faith in Christ ... but I would also say that Israel is still Israel!


Having said all this, we have gone far afield of the original post ... The Prayer of Jabez. The point of all my posts is to state that God deals with people according to the spirit. The Prayer of Jabez is a prayer we know pleased the heart of God because He answered it. Therefore, there is something we can learn today from a prayer that pleases the heart of God.

countrymouse
02-14-02, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by PastorChazz
[B]CM,

1) Yes, I realize that we may approach this discussion from two different theological perspectives. However, the point remains that the people of the Old Testament were not "only flesh." I agree that they were all dead in sin, but to say "only flesh" is not only improper, but misconstrues how God relates to man. The reason I press this point is because God has ALWAYS dealt with man according to the spirit and not according to the flesh.


I'll be content to leave it at "dead in sin," because we probably have different ideas about what it means to be "merely flesh."


Originally posted by PastorChazz
2) I would disagree with you on your use of the term "gospel" referring to the shadows and types of Jesus in the OT. The NT is clear that the "gospel" is the message of Jesus Christ as the ransom for sin. There was no "good news" in the Law, as kermie pointed out in an earlier post, one of the chief roles of the Law is to point out the need for a Savior.


Let me try again: God, according to the Bible, preached the gospel to Abraham.

NAS Galatians 3:8-12
8. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, {saying,} "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."

God promised the coming of a new kingdom when he told the serpent (see Genesis 3) that the seed of the woman would bruise the serpent's head. That, too, was a presentation of the gospel.

NAS Isaiah 9:1-7
1. But there will be no {more} gloom for her who was in anguish; in earlier times He treated the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali with contempt, but later on He shall make {it} glorious, by the way of the sea, on the other side of Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.
2. The people who walk in darkness Will see a great light; Those who live in a dark land, The light will shine on them.
3. You shall multiply the nation, You shall increase their gladness; They will be glad in Your presence As with the gladness of harvest, As men rejoice when they divide the spoil.
4. For You shall break the yoke of their burden and the staff on their shoulders, The rod of their oppressor, as at the battle of Midian.
5. For every boot of the booted warrior in the {battle} tumult, And cloak rolled in blood, will be for burning, fuel for the fire.
6. For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7. There will be no end to the increase of {His} government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

This is a proclamation of the gospel! And there are many, many more in the Old Testament. All the messianic promises concerning Jesus are proclamations of the gospel.

I completely agree that there was no good news in the Law, as Paul himself pointed out. It was a tutor, a provisional covenant to prepare the people for the Messianic Covenant.


Originally posted by PastorChazz
3) I also agree that the OC was conditional, but then again EVERY covenant is conditional. What is NOT conditional is the "everlasting" nature of the covenant. I also agree that OC was summed up and fulfilled in the NC. I also agree that the only way to participate in the New Covenant is through faith in Christ ... but I would also say that Israel is still Israel!


Yes, every covenant is conditional. Our Messianic Covenant is conditional as well, and the condition is belief. God has made sure our ability to keep this covenant, however, whereas he did not ensure ability to keep the Law.

The Jews do still exist as a nation. However, the name "Israel" rightfully only belongs now to the New Covenant people, because:

NAS Genesis 32:28
28. He said, "Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed."

We are the ones who have prevailed, through faith in Christ.

And:

NAS Romans 9:6-8
6. But {it is} not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are {descended} from Israel;
7. nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8. That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.



Originally posted by PastorChazz
Having said all this, we have gone far afield of the original post ... The Prayer of Jabez. The point of all my posts is to state that God deals with people according to the spirit. The Prayer of Jabez is a prayer we know pleased the heart of God because He answered it. Therefore, there is something we can learn today from a prayer that pleases the heart of God.


We certainly can learn from the prayer of Jabez. Jabez recognized that the God of Israel is the true and living God. He asked for God's protection and provision.

NAS Proverbs 1:7
7. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge...


Blessings to you,
cm

Brandan
02-14-02, 10:50 AM
(Taken from the old bulletin board)

Jer 31:31-34, (NAS), "Behold, days are coming," declares the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, (32) not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the Lord. (33) "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the Lord, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. (34) "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the Lord, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

When you examine the new covenant promise of Jeremiah 31:31-34, one of the first issues that presents itself is the necessity for such a promise. Why was there a need for a new covenant? The collective witness of the Old Testament prophets is that, as a nation, Israel had miserably failed to keep the covenant that God had made with them on Mount Sinai. In verse thirty-two of this passage, God reminds both houses of Israel that they had broken covenant with Him. He tells them that this new covenant is ... (32) not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the Lord.

Heb 8:7-8, (NAS), For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. (8) For finding fault with them, He says, "Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, When I will effect a new covenant With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;

In saying that the Mosaic covenant was faulty, it does not mean that it had been unable to accomplish the purpose for which God gave it. That purpose was to demonstrate to sinners, using Israel as a paradigm, that it is absolutely impossible for God to welcome sinners apart from His promise of grace. . The law performed splendidly in accomplishing the task for which God had given it, but having fully discharged its function, it was incapable of meeting man's most basic spiritual needs. It could not cancel guilt. It could not quiet the nagging conscience. It could not sanctify the life. It couldnot equip people to worship God in truth (Heb 10:1). Indeed, "the law made nothing perfect" (Heb 7:19).

It is not that the blessings enjoyed under the old covenant were not true blessings; they were. Israel enjoyed great advantages as the covenant people of God. They were privileged to call Jehovah their God and they were called God's sons. Having received the law in codified form, they knew His will and were able to discern between that which was "good" and that which was "excellent." They enjoyed Jehovah's continued presence in the midst of Israel's camp. These are only a few of the many blessings that Israel enjoyed under the old covenant. Yet, tonly in a comparatively crude sense could these be called blessings. Contrasted to the glory of the new covenant, the old covenant had no glory at all. Paul wrote, "For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts" (2 Cor 3:10-11)!

Israel was indeed the "Apple of God's eye." They were truly in every sense of the word God's "chosen" nation. Just as God sovereignly chose to bring this nation to Himself, He chose to harden their hearts and bring salvation to the Gentiles (Ex. 4:21; Isa. 63:17; John 12:39; Rom. 9:11-33).

Romans 11:17-22, But if some of the branches [some Jews by birth] were broken off, and you, being a wild olive [Gentiles], were grafted in among them [became true Jews, or the true circumcision, as Paul says in Romans 2:26-29] and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree [the root of the olive tree is the covenant God made with Abraham and his true descendants, and to become a partaker of this root is to became a beneficiary of salvation, the promise made to Abraham and his descendants that he would be their God and they would be his people; if you are grafted in -if you become a part of true Israel - that's yours], (18) do not be arrogant [you Gentiles] toward the branches [the natural Jews]; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. (19) You will say then [you Gentiles], "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." (20) Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief [so we see that faith is what makes you a Jew or not, which, in view of 2:26-27, means the essence of Law - keeping it in faith], but you stand by your faith [you have a part in this rich root of the promise of God to be your God if you believe in the Messiah, Jesus Christ, as Paul said in Galatians 3:7, "It is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham" - you stand only by faith; that's the essence of being a true Jew and part of the Israel of God]. Do not be conceited, but fear; (21) for if God did not spare the natural branches [Jews have been broken off and condemned for unbelief], He will not spare you either [you can be as deceived as they were about being a true Jew if you try to cling to this tree without the Spirit changing your heart].

Jeffreyw
02-18-02, 01:22 PM
I let a friend of mine who is a non-believer read the prayer of Jabez by Wilkinson, after reading it, he asked God to expand his territory by literally asking God that somebody would need his help that day, and true enough minutes after he prayed a friend of his called him up and asked for his help.

Jeffreyw
02-18-02, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by countrymouse


Jeffrey, those are statements, not promises. .





:eek::D :rolleyes:

Difinetely, this one's a promise, and it's not a material one. Or is this another statement accoding to you?

Joshua 1:9
Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged, for the LORD your God will be with you wherever you go."

Fledge
02-21-02, 09:08 AM
The private prayer of Christians should define their public lives, not vice versa. The goal of prayer should never the approval of the crowds, but the approval of our Father in heaven.

The secret to prayer is secret prayer. Prayer should be its own reward. Prayer is not a magic formula to get things from God. Communing with God in prayer is itself the prize.

The tragedy of contemporary Christianity is that we measure the success of our prayer life by the size and scope of our accomplishments, rather than the strength of our relationship with God. As humans beings, we want instant formulas, but God wants intimate fellowship. All too often we are fixated on our outwardness, while God is focused on our inwardness.

Not only is prayer its own reward, but secret prayer is always rewarded by a response from God. While the response we get is not always the response we want, it is the BEST response.

Prayer leads to rewards in eternity. Christ's message is crystal clear. Rather than fixate on earthly vanities such as the admiration of men or of things and "blessings", we ought to focus on such eternal verities as the approval of the Master.

The rewards for a life of faithful prayer in the secret place involve not only enlarged responsibilities but enhanced spiritual capacities. As the capacity for enjoying music is greatly enhanced when one masters a musical instrument, the work we do here and now will greatly enhance our capacity for enjoying eternity.

Prayer is not merely a means of presenting our requests to God, it is a means of pursuing a relationship with our Heavenly Father. If we are to nurture a strong bond with our Creator, we must continually communicate with Him. Prayer is our primary was of doing that.

A memorable way of prioritizing the principles of prayer, remember the acronym F-A-C-T-S.

F=Faith -- Faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed. It is the object of our faith that renders faith faithful. The secret is not in the phrases we utter in prayer but in coming to know, ever more fully, the One to whom we pray. Since God is awesomely revealed in His Word, the prayer of faith must always be rooted in Scripture. Prayer becomes truly meaningful when we enter into a relationship with God through Christ. We can then build on that foundation by saturating ourselves with Scripture.

A=Adoration -- Faith in God naturally leads to adoration. Prayer without adoration is like a body without a soul. It is not only incomplete, but it just doesn't work. Through adoration we express our genuine, heartfelt love and longing for God. Adoration inevitably leads to praise and worship, as our thoughts are focused on God's surpassing greatness.

C=Confession -- Those who are redeemed by the person and work of Jesus are positionally declared righteous before God. In practical terms, however, we are still sinners who sin every day. While unconfessed sin will not break our union with God, it will break our communion with God. Thus confession is a crucial aspect of daily prayer.
The concept of confession carries the acknowledgement that we stand guilty before God's bar of justice. There's no place for self-righteousness before God. We can only develop intimacy with the Lord through prayer when we confess our need for forgiveness and seek His pardon.

T=Thanksgiving -- Nothing is more basic to prayer than thanksgiving. Scripture teaches us to "enter His courts with thanksgiving and his courts with praise" (Psalm 100:4). Failure to do so is the stuff of pagan babblings and carnal Christianity.
Carnal Christians likewise fail to thank God regularly for His many blessings. They suffer from what might be described as selective memories and live by their feelings rather than by faith. They are prone to forget the blessings of yesterday as they thanklessly barrage the throne of grace with new requests each day.

S=Supplication -- We began by noting that prayer begins with a humble faith in the love and resources of our Heavenly Father. This prayer becomes a means through which we learn to lean more heavily upon Him and less heavily upon ourselves. Such faith inevitably leads to adoration as we express our longing for an ever deeper and richer relationship with the One who knit us together in our mother's wombs. The more we get to know Him in the fullness of His majesty, the more we are inclined to confess our unworthiness and to thank Him not only for His saving and sanctifying grace but also for His goodness in supplying all our needs.

It is in the context of such a relationship that God desires that His children bring their requests before His throne of grace with praise and thanksgiving.

If God knows what we need before we even ask, why bother asking at all? Supplication is not the sole sum and substance of our prayers. Far from merely being a means of presenting our daily requests to God, it is a means of pursuing a dynamic relationship with Him. While our Father knows what we need before we even ask, our supplications are, in and of themselves, an acknowledgement of our dependence on Him, and that alone is reason enough to pray without ceasing.

Let's take a look at "The Lord's Prayer".

The Lord's Prayer is divided into essentially two parts. The first is focused on God's glory. This, we pray "hallowed be Your name, Your kingdom come, Your will be done." The second is focused on our needs

"Our Father in heaven..."
To the disciples, the first words in the Lord's prayer must have been nothing short of scandalous. Of all the things they had ever learned about prayer, this was certainly not one of them. They were not even permitted to say the name of God aloud, let alone to refer to Him as "our father". Yet that is exactly how Jesus taught them to pray. There was, however, a catch. As John explains, only those who received Jesus and believed on His name had the right to refer to God as "our Father". Addressing God as "our father" makes us ever mindful of our relationship with God. It also underscores the fact that I do not come before Him in isolation, rather I come as part of a community of faith. Thus adding "in heaven" reminds us of the reverence due His name.

"Hallowed be your name..."
The initial request of the Lord's Prayer is that God's name be made holy. To pray "hallowed be your name" is to put the emphasis on God first, exactly where it belongs. Our daily lives should radiate a far greater commitment to God's nature and holiness than to our own needs. To pray "hallowed be your name" is to pray that God be given the unique reverence that His holiness demands; that God's Word be preached without corruption; that our churches be led by faithful pastors and preserved from false prophets; that we be kept from language that profanes God's name; that our thought lives remain holy; and that we cease from seeking honor for ourselves and seek instead that God's name be glorified.

"Your kingdom come..."
In teaching us to pray "your kingdom come", Jesus was first a foremost teaching us to petition our heavenly Father to expand His rule over the territory of our hearts. It is an invitation to embrace the kingdom of Christ in every aspect of our lives.

Furthermore, to pray "your kingdom come" is to pray that God would use our witness for the expansion of His kingdom.

Finally, to pray "your kingdom come" is to recognize that Christ has already won the war, but the reality of His reign is not yet fully recognized. At present, we are sandwiched between the triumph of the cross and the termination of time.

"Your will be done..."
To pray "your will be done" is, first and foremost, recognition of the sovereignty of God. In effect it is a way of saying, "Thank God this world is under His control not mine!"

We would be in deep trouble if God gave us everything for which we asked. The truth is, we don't know what's best for us.

Furthermore, to pray "your will be done" is daily recognition that our wills must be submitted to His will.

One of the most comforting thoughts that can penetrate a human mind yielded to the will of God is that He who has created us also knows what's best for us. This, if we walk according to His will, rather than trying to command Him according to our wills, we will indeed have, as He promised, peace in the midst of storm.

With the word "Amen" we are in effect saying, "May it be so in accordance with the will of God." It is a marvelous reminder that any discussion on prayer must begin with the understanding that prayer is a means of bringing us into conformity with God's will, not a magic mantra that ensures God's conformity to ours.

However, when we pray earnestly, as Christ did, "nevertheless not my will but Thy will be done," we can rst assured that even in sickness and tragedy "all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose." (Romans 8:28)

Finally, to pray "your will be done" is daily recognition that God will not spare us from trial and tribulation, but rather use the fiery furnace to purge impurities from our lives.

"On earth as it is in heaven..."
The phrase "in heaven" is inextricably woven together with each of the first three petitions of the Lord's Prayer. It is a daily reminder that we are to live with heaven in mind.

"Give us this day our daily bread..."
We must remember that petitioning our heavenly Father to "give us today our daily bread" encompasses far more than physical food. God promises to provide the 'necessities' but not always the 'niceties'. And we should want it no other way.

When we ask our heavenly Father to "give us today our daily bread" we are praying in plural. Not only are we praying for the needs or our immediate family, but we are praying for the needs of our extended family as well. We do not pray as mere rugged individuals but as members of a community of faith.

We cannot rightly pray "give" and not be "givers" ourselves.

When Jesus taught His disciples to pray "give us today our daily bread", He was reminding them that He was there to sustain them spiritually as well as physically.

"Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors..."
Since we have been forgiven an infinite debt, it is a horrendous evil to even consider withholding forgiveness from those who seek it.

Furthermore, when we pray "forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors," we are reminded of the infinite price that was paid so that we might be forgiven. We must ever be mindful that it was God Himself who hung on the cross so that we could be reconciled to Him for time and for eternity.

"Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one..."
When you pray "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one" you should immediately remember to "put on the full armor of God so you can take your stand against the devil's schemes."

When we pray "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one", we are acknowledging that God is sovereign over all things, including the temptations of Satan. Whil our "enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour" (1 Peter 5:8), he is a lion on a leash the length of which is determined by the Lord.

It is significant to note that Jesus was "led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil" (Matthew 4:1). Thus, while Satan was the agent of the temptation, God was the author of the testing. Satan used the occasion to tempt Christ to sin; God used the occasion to demonstrate that He could not sin.

Finally, when we pray "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one", we are reminded to look forward to the day when we will be completely set free from all temptations.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deep is where we step out of the shallow tidepool of our hearts into the boundless ocean of God's power and presence. It is where we get beyond surface things and plunge into a deep relationship with our Creator.

Going deep with God begins with a major shift in our perceptions about prayer. Rather than looking for techniques through which we can get God to answer our prayers, we must be mindful that prayer is an opportunity for developing intimacy with the very One who knit us together in our mother's womb.

Relationships, whether human or divine never grow apart from the investment of quality time. Thus, the first step toward moving into the deep with God is to purpose to make prayer a priority.

Genuine prayer is not found in our noisy askings and gettings; it is found in a growing relationship with the Lover of our souls. All too often we want God to move the fence posts and enlarge our houses and lands. God wants something far better for us. He wants us to be still so that He can enlarge the territories of our hearts.

The more we meditate upon scripture, the clearer His voice will resonate in the sounds of our silence. We desperately need a place away from the invasive sounds of this world so that we can hear the sounds of another place and another Voice.

Jesus led His disciples out of the shallow tidepools of prayer into an ever deepening relationship with their heavenly Father.

Here are some practical guidelines for diving in:

ONE - Make the shift. Stop seeing prayer as merely a means of obtaining your requests. Start seeing prayer as a means of enjoying the riches of a relationship with God.

TWO - Confess your sins daily.

THREE - Get into the Bible. God's will is revealed in His Word. Thus, the only was you can know His will is to know His Word. The more we meditate upon God's Word, the clearer His voice will be as we daily commune with Him in prayer.

FOUR - Discover your secret place. The secret to prayer is secret prayer. Your public presence is a direct reflection of your private prayer life. If you spend time in the secret place, you will exude peace in the midst of life's storms.

FIVE - Make prayer priority.


If you faithfully practice a new discipline for twenty-one days, it may well stay with you for the rest of your life.

Prayer is a beautiful foretaste of something we will experience for all eternity.

Jeffreyw
02-27-02, 02:01 AM
Fledge

My non-believer has just been blessed and hundreds of others inluding me, I dont think the prayer of Jabez is a formula, it is the WORD of GOD. It is the heart that the Father God seeks.

Be careful with your criticisms of the prayer of Jabez because it is GOD's WORD!

Have you asked God for forgiveness when you mistakenly concluded about the "God is a puppet thing?" Be careful Fledge...

Fledge, just a reminder for you and me: be careful or beware of praying "fomula prayers."
;)

God bless us all!

Jeffreyw
02-27-02, 02:19 AM
If you faithfully practice a new discipline for twenty-one days, it may well stay with you for the rest of your life.


It is the willingness, the drive, the passion of the person that makes this practice stay with him.

Fledge
02-27-02, 07:45 AM
Be careful with your criticisms of the prayer of Jabez because it is GOD's WORD!
I have not criticized God's Word. I have given a criticism of Wilkinson's book. AND, I don't say it is an evil book, or that he is consciouly trying to do something just for money, or that he is blatantly wrong. The subject was brought up and I gave my opinion.


Have you asked God for forgiveness when you mistakenly concluded about the "God is a puppet thing?" Be careful Fledge...
I don't conclude God is a puppet. The faith teachers do a good enough job at that. I say God is NOT a puppet, nor is He obliged to to anything for us. All that He does in, through, for, or to us is of His own doing and desire.

"Be careful...." of what?



Fledge, just a reminder for you and me: be careful or beware of praying "fomula prayers."
I DO agree with that!!!



Also...I don't have a problem with you expressing your opinions, thoughts, disagreements, and arguments...but try to watch the tone of those arguments a little better please.
Thanks!

disciple
02-27-02, 02:46 PM
haven't read the book but my wife has. here is an interesting article about it from Grace To You (John MacArthur's ministry):
http://www.gty.org/jabez.htm

Fledge
02-27-02, 05:08 PM
Thank you disciple.
Good article, and I am happy you shared that with us.

John MacArthur is a good teacher, and a very biblical one! A man to be respected.

Jeffreyw
02-27-02, 05:55 PM
I have not criticized God's Word

Only our Father knows your heart. Sometimes you cannot know yours.



I don't conclude God is a puppet.

Of course, I did not say you concluded as you have said it. It is when you falsely accused those preachers. There are times that you cannot know what is really in your heart.

You better ask God about it.


but try to watch the tone of those arguments a little better please.

Offended? The Pharisees were offended too.

Jeffreyw
02-27-02, 06:29 PM
Disagreements, arguements, criticisms about "something new" is nothing new. Many books, texts, voices have been released.

1. The "holy laughter" in the early to middle 90's have been heavily criticized by fellow christians (who have not experienced it). I have experience it, and it was supernatural and wasn't my own will to laugh the Spirit did it through me.

A friend of mine who have not experience this manifestation, but before saying something against it, have pervently asked God for a revelation, and true enough God enlightened his questioning mind. God showed him the biblical reference about the laughter thing.

2. A minister back in the 1700's to 1800's (forgot his name and date) have been mocked by his fellow ministers when he shared about the importance of "missions" to other cultures and nations. It was like a new thing about that time.

3. Christians who have spoke in tounges in early 1900's have been mocked, stoned, persecuted, kicked out of the church by Christians and it is still going on.

Though being watchful about "something new" is a good act, but heavily criticising it before or without asking God about it isn't good.

GreekPrincess
02-27-02, 07:24 PM
Many of my Christian friends have read and praised this book for bringing Scripture to the main stream society. I had such a different reaction. I grew very timid about it simply because it had such a popular following. TShirts, calendars, greeting cards, you name it.

I have never read it so I really have to justification for my feelings. But, when I see things held so closely to me like prayer with my Father taken so lightly and sometimes, "new agey" by non believers, I get my back up about it. I love the prayer because it is Scripture and part of God's Holy Word. I grow leary of "fad" books, though.

I read the article posted above and something caught my eye:

"God is not a genie in a bottle, waiting to be coaxed out so He can grant wishes. Rather, prayer is about aligning your mind and heart with God's sovereign purposes. "

Georgianne :)

Fledge
02-27-02, 11:34 PM
Offended? The Pharisees were offended too.
Nope, not offended at all. You have your opinions, and although I disagree I respect them. Although I will debate the point with you, you are entitled to your opinions, and to disagree with me.
I also expect the same respect toward me.

The problem being here, is the tone and confrontiveness (if that's a good word to use). It isn't always "WHAT" a person says, but "HOW" they say it.

All I am asking is that you show a little respect to the other posters here, especially the ones that disagree with you (like me), and allow people the freedom to have their opinions without attacking them.

Otherwise, you will be banned. And I am sure that I have Kermie, countrymouse, and Christ Alone's agreement on this.

Jeffreyw
02-28-02, 06:24 PM
Nope, not offended at all.

Only God knows....


I do not only disagree with your (and others) opinions, but also to your character.

disciple
02-28-02, 06:33 PM
WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!!!!

disciple
02-28-02, 06:34 PM
i can feel the looooove...i feel it...i feel it. keep it coming.

disciple
02-28-02, 06:35 PM
now let's kiss and hug and make up

Fledge
02-28-02, 09:15 PM
This thread is now closed.

What started out as an intelligent discussion has degraded to nothing more than someone arguing for the sake of arguing, and making personal attacks on others.

Perhaps, when people can learn to discuss and even disagree in an agreeable manner, we can pick up the discussion at a future date.

God Bless.