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SuperGrover
12-21-01, 04:06 PM
Where and what did our Lord and Savior do in between the ages of 12 and 30? Did he perform other miracles? Did he travel eastern lands such as India or the Orient? I know there are a lot of theories on his whereabouts and activities during this lost period. I'm just curious what you guys think. Any thoughts?

















Anyone?

Twiggy
12-21-01, 08:19 PM
That's a good question. Almost everyone has wondered this I'm sure.

So where'd you find your theories? Share some.

man in the box
12-21-01, 08:57 PM
Hey Supergrover how are you? :)

When Jesus was 12 He was at the Temple teaching. His parents left without Him then came back and found Him. The Bible says that He subjected Himself to their authority. I take that to mean He just lead a regular life. It is also believed that Joseph died very early. If that is true Jesus in Jewish custom would have been sole caretaker of the family and in charge. I believe between these ages He was taking care of His family like any other responsible Jewish first born son.
Take care.

Fledge
12-21-01, 11:50 PM
I agree.
I believe he did a lot of growing, maturing (physically and mentally and like any other person).
I think he most likely took up His father's (earthly father, Joseph) trade and worked and supported his mother and family and Himself.
I think he played with the other kids when the time was right to do so and I think He "went to church" and did the things that were expected of Him as a young person of that culture and time.

As for Him performing miracles and the such, I don't think so.

At one point, people said of Him (in paraphrase), "Isn't that Joseph's son? The carpenter? What's gotten into him?" (more or less...) So that tells me that until His ministry officially began, he didn't do much to bring a lot of attention to Himself.

HIS
12-22-01, 04:16 AM
Regarding the question as to whether Jesus performed any miracles before the age of 30, it seems clear to me by the Scripture that the answer is no.

If you will recall, John records in his gospel that the “beginning of miracles” from JESUS started when he made the water into wine:

John 2:3-5 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

Verse 11: This BEGINNING of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

We also see this in chapter four:

John 4:49-53 The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die. Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way. And as he was now going down, his servants met him, and told him, saying, Thy son liveth. Then inquired he of them the hour when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him. So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

John 4:54 This is again THE SECOND miracle that Jesus did, when he was come out of Judaea into Galilee.

****************

I think it is interesting what Jesus says to his mother in the first passage when she tells him they are out of wine:

“Woman, what have I to do with thee? Mine hour is not yet come.”

Note: Obviously, Mary (his mother) knew Jesus was the Savior and would someday be called of God to deliver Israel out of the oppression of the Romans (or so she may have assumed). It seems to me by her statement she somehow knew Jesus could take care of the need. Who knows what He may have done to make her think this…

Anyway, Jesus knew her thoughts and makes the statement, “Woman, what have I to do with thee? Mine hour is not yet come.”

It’s as if he was saying, “my hour (time) to begin performing miracles is not yet.”

His mother’s response probably made him very happy indeed:

His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

FAITH…And a mother’s determination to get what she asked for!

This was the type of faith He desired to see from others throughout his ministry.

How could JESUS resist this kind of faith and determination and (especially) from his own mother!

HIS

Christ_†_Alone
12-22-01, 07:12 AM
For all you parents of teenagers out there...

Can you imagine raising a teenager that was sinless?

What a joy it must have been for Mary to bring Him up...

Twiggy
12-22-01, 12:45 PM
The "wine" was actually grape juice that had no hint of fermentation in it.

Right?

The govenor even complimented on its pure quality. Just a thought.

HIS
12-22-01, 01:01 PM
TwiggyG,

This is what I have always heard, so I believe you are correct. The same is true for the "last supper" wine that JESUS offered to His disciples:

Mat 26:27-29 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

HIS

Twiggy
12-22-01, 02:48 PM
Hi HIS

That does make sense. Jesus' blood wouldn't be a symbol of something considered poisonous and corrupt.

HIS
12-22-01, 03:14 PM
YES...His body saw no corruption!

Brandan
12-22-01, 03:37 PM
Pure grape juice was probably impractical at the time, for there was no way to preserve it. In fact, the safest thing to drink was probably wine, for there was no way bacteria could thrive in alcohol.

Twiggy
12-22-01, 08:37 PM
Did you know that Dr. Thomas Welch came up with the desire to successful pasteurize Concord grap juice to produce an unfermented sacramental wine?? A visitor at his church got drunk *accidentally I guess* and became unruly after a communion in which fermented wine was used. Dr. Welch of Welch's 100% Grape Juice!

JC FR3AK
12-26-01, 02:20 PM
This whole wine thing is very interesting. I have heard many Christians condem the 'evils of drink' and explain away Jesus' wine drinking sessions by saying that it was only grape juice. But why then does it say wine? I will be very suprised if anyone can find a single passage in the Bible condeming alcohol. I know that there are many condeming getting drunk but I have not found any acctually knocking drink.

Fledge
12-26-01, 05:52 PM
And I agree with Kermie. For practical reasons, it was probably somewhat fermented. Maybe not as strong as today's...maybe the same. Who knows. But for health and safety reasons, it probably was actually wine. Also...when storing grape juice, especially in the heat that can come in the middle east summers...it's gunna ferment no matter what.

AND, I don't think that alcohol itself is bad or evil. Paul encouraged Timothy to have a little wine for his stomach. Obviously, Paul wasn't telling him to go get lit every night. So I drink or two here and there, in my opinion, isn't sin.

On the other hand, if I am around somebody who has troubles with alcohol...I won't touch the stuff, so as not to even provide the hint of temptation to my brother who struggles with it.

HIS
12-27-01, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by JC FR3AK
This whole wine thing is very interesting...I will be very suprised if anyone can find a single passage in the Bible condeming alcohol.

JC FR3AK...Here are a few:

Prov 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Prov 23:29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?

Prov 23:30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

Prov 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

Prov 23:32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

Isa 22:13-14 But see, there is joy and revelry, slaughtering of cattle and killing of sheep, eating of meat and drinking of wine! "Let us eat and drink," you say, "for tomorrow we die!" The LORD Almighty has revealed this in my hearing: "Till your dying day this sin will not be atoned for," says the Lord, the LORD Almighty.

Isa 28:7-8 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit...

1 Pet 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries...

Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

JC FR3AK...I hope you don't need much more than this in order to convince you that wine and strong drink is a problem. Granted, there are several Scriptures that seem to put emphasis on "in excess" part...But, I might remind you that the average person does not have much self control and the Scripture does say the "wine is a mocker," and you (anyone) can be decieved by it. I also believe that some passages (verses) are being misinterpreted.

My question is: Why invite trouble?

Is it worth losing your soul over wine or strong drink?

Prov 23:32 In the end it bites like a snake and poisons like a viper.

Food (or drink) for thought... :)

HIS

JC FR3AK
12-27-01, 07:53 AM
I stand (well sit) corrected!

The thing is. JESUS DRANK WINE. How do you explain that one? If it is so wrong then why did he do it? I can only assume that it was because he trusted his self controll as do I so I have no problem with it but each to his own. I will however bear this in mind at the next party i go to.

Talking of parties wasn't Jesus' first miricle at a party turning water into vino!:cool:

HIS
12-27-01, 12:21 PM
JC FR3AK,

Thanks for being open minded.

Regarding your question concerning Jesus, I offer this article for your consideration:

The New Testament records the use of wine. Jesus was called a winebibber, He turned water into wine, He used wine at the Last Supper, and Paul advised Timothy to drink wine. Although the New Testament does record some use of wine, we must not conclude that it necessarily endorses strong alcoholic beverages.

The Greek word for wine is oinos. It usually refers to fermented juice, but sometimes it refers to unfermented juice (Matthew 9:17; Mark 2:22; Luke 5:37). The Septuagint (a Greek translation of the Old Testament before the time of Christ) used oinos to translate tiyrosh, meaning fresh, unfermented grape juice.

In New Testament times unfermented juice was a common drink, and fermented juice was often heavily diluted with water so that it was not intoxicating. “Before NT times, the Hellenistic practice of mixing it [wine] with water was common in Palestine. Wine was a disinfectant (Luke 10:34) and medicine (I Timothy 5:23). . . . Means for preserving grape-juice were well known,” including one ancient method for preserving juice in an unfermented state for a period of one year.

The wines of antiquity were more like sirups; many of them were not intoxicant; many more intoxicant in a small degree; and all of them, as a rule, taken only when largely diluted with water. They contained, even undiluted, but 4 or 5 percent of alcohol.

In view of these facts, we are persuaded that Jesus did not drink or create a strongly intoxicating beverage. The God who warned of the evils of alcohol did not set a bad example for us. The God who condemned drunkenness as sin and who tempts no man to sin did not provide an opportunity for men to get drunk at the wedding feast in Cana. Presumably the Creator created a new sub-stance (unfermented), not a partially decayed substance (fermented). It was the best wine at the feast, not because it was the most intoxicating but because it was the best tasting.

Paul did not advise Timothy to drink a strong alcoholic beverage for his weak stomach, but advised him to use wine for medicinal purposes or to use strengthening juice instead of unsanitary local water.

Significantly, the Bible does not say Jesus used wine at the Last Supper but “the fruit of the vine.” As The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary notes, this “may be a studied avoidance of the term wine, indicating that the drink was unfermented, as the bread was unleavened. Whatever use Jesus or others made of wine is no proof that its use in our tense age is wise. The Bible gives more space to the dangers than to the benefit of wine.

Interestingly, the scoffers on the Day of Pentecost described the Spirit-filled disciples as being drunk on gleukos, which means new wine or sweet wine (Acts 2:13). This word normally means unfermented juice. Perhaps the onlookers sarcastically alluded to the disciples’ reputation for abstention, which was apparently violated. The usage may imply that the disciples, known to drink only unfermented grape juice, in that exuberant enthusiasm appeared intoxicated.

Conclusion
In conclusion, we have the support both of Scripture and of historic Christian movements when we advocate total abstinence from the drinking of alcoholic beverages and the use of tobacco in any form. In view of the many documented evils of alcohol, drugs, and tobacco and their devastating impact on modern society, this is the wisest, safest, and holiest course of action for Christians to take.

Twiggy
12-27-01, 01:04 PM
Applicable scripture there HIS...Very good!

Twiggy
12-27-01, 01:29 PM
JCF,

Alcohol is unclean, unholy, and a POISON.

The word 'wine' is used in the Bible. But in the Hebrew text there are 2 words to distinguish between what type.

Tiyrosh -- is used for new unfermented wine.
Yayin -- is used for old fermented wine.

*You may want to check out www.ao.net/~fmoeller/winebk.htm

Understanding the scriptures HIS used, the appropriate meaning will usually surface. Unless the passage says old or new wine, the context will often tell what kind of grape juice is being described.

Luke 5: 37-39 says " And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, new wine must be poured into new wineskins. And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for he says, 'The old is better.'"

Obviously new wine is of the fresh unfermented variety and old wine is of the fermented variety.

Isaiah 65:8 reads "Thus saith the LORD, as the new wine is found in cluster and one saith destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

From this passage, it is clear that new wine is simple grape juice.

In Matthew 26:26-29, Jesus did not used old putrefying fermented wine as a symbol of His purifying blood. There's no way.

Get this...In Matthew 27: 34 when the Roman soldier offered Jesus vinegar-fermented wine to drink, Jesus refused it as soon as He recognized it was fermented. If Jesus refused this when He was suffering on the cross, why would He have drunk wine normally on a regular basis. With the redemption of the world hanging in the balance, Jesus would not risk His judgement being impaired by receiving even a mouthful of wine as thirsty as He was.

There are many instances in the Bible where people suffered woes for drinking fermented drink. Noah (Genesis 9:21), Lot (Genesis 19:33), the children of Israel (Exodus 32: 6, 25), Amnon raping his half sister while drunk (2 Samuel 13:28)

1Peter5:8 says to "be sober, be vigilant, because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour"

With all this in mind, the wine Paul prescribed for Timothy was obviously grape juice. Think about it. This is the same Paul who says "Be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit."

Drinking strong drink only compromises God's high standard.

JC FR3AK
12-27-01, 02:13 PM
Hmm

Odyssey
12-27-01, 02:58 PM
1Cor. 8.1-9.5. 'Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him. Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. But take care lest this liberty of yours somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. And thus, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, that I might not cause my brother to stumble. Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you; for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. My defense to those who examine me is this: Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?...'

Apparently Paul didn't think there was anything wrong with drinking unless he was in the presense of someone who was 'weak' in the faith.

Grace to you,

jak

PS: The many instances of people suffering because of their drinking is because they got drunk not because they drank it at all.

Dr. Szo
12-27-01, 07:09 PM
Check this link out. Another perspective related to thos early years:

http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-q=Jesus+early+years&submit=Search+The+Urantia+Book&sp-a=sp1001a735

Search even more related to the life of Jesus and his relationship to the apostles and other events of his life:

http://www.ubfellowship.org/multi_listing.htm

Dr. Szo