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JC FR3AK
12-26-01, 10:22 AM
Over Christmas our whole family went to church as expected, and as most people do when away from home we flocked to the nearest building which looked like a church. I found the whole service numbingly boring and got dripped on constantly by hot wax. As I left the building I realised if a Christian who belived all that they said should find it boring then what about non-christians. As a (I think) constantly witnessing christian the biggest problem I find is the church's backward image. We have one day per year when we are guarenteed a good suply of non christians to witness to and not just that but in church! This oppertunity is not only being wasted but is turning people against the church. I never once heard the gospel being spoken during that service, just a shallow ritual. What does everyone else think about this and what can we do about it.

dearlyloved
12-26-01, 08:50 PM
I say you are not the only one who feels that way. Actually it is nice to know that the "church" is fed up with playing games. I believe that God is raising up a generation of believers who is going to bring the "true church" to a dying world. You know, it's interesting, I have been on both sides of the spectrum. I attended what you would call a "conservative" church for eight years and then attended a "charismatic" church for eight years and although I did see a difference in maturity level and knowledge of the word, they both possessed the same qualities: hypocrisy and criticism. The "conservative" church devoured the sinners, while the "charismatic" church beat the daylights out of the sheep. It was like once you got saved, then the grace of God ran out. The thing is, I have seen the "conservative" church try and hire an upbeat praise and worship team to come in and liven up the place, while I saw the "charismatic" church tone down its praise and worship so that it would be more appealing and "seeker sensitive." It's crazy. The church has been around a long time and she is still trying to find some formula to make the world take notice of how exciting and accomodating she is. While we sit Jesus on the sidelines and invite him in to a service every now and then so that we can get those nice goosebumpy feelings. Jesus said in John 12
32And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
As THE CHURCH we need to pray that Jesus will reveal himself to HIS CHURCH, just like he did with the apostle Paul. Let's face it, we don't like to suffer. We hate the fact of dying to our flesh, but that is exactly what God requires of us. But until HE is increased and we are decreased, the "church" will still be that little building down the street that you go to on Christmas and Easter.

Just my thoughts----

_________________

PSALM 127
1 Unless the LORD builds the house,
They labor in vain who build it;

JC FR3AK
12-27-01, 07:44 AM
That's quite interesting what you said about the church trying to find an appealing formula. But don't they realise that because we have somthing so much better that they don't have to sell it by changing worship etc? I'm lucky enough to go to a non-denominational charismatic/evangelical based church which is small enough to have understanding between all of it's members and eldership team so I don't quite know what you mean by 'kicking the stuffing out of the sheep'. But I'm sure there are a lot of churches only interested in outreach and nothing else. Equally there will be some (I have been to some) which have not seen a single new member in five or so years. We must do more as a whole to get the message across because so many people I talk to havn't even heard the Gospel and think that Jesus' death was an accident. Equally we must (as you pointed out) continue to support those who have become Christians and not just attend to the lost. It's important not to try to sell the Gospel but I think it needs to be presented in a fresh relevent way.

GRANTM
12-27-01, 08:55 AM
Hope everyone had a great Holiday.

What is Interesting here is that at our family reunions over the years I am the Designated "babysitter" while the relatives
go to their various services of Worship.(I believe in God but not in any religion or church) These range from the Catholic High Mass Conducted in Latin 2 1/2 hrs. To the "convenience services" (My Term of 40 min or less showings at 2:00 4:00 7:00 9:00 and
the special Mid-night service.)
The discussions of services sometimes gets very heated as to Who has the correct way?
In truth all the ways are good you are doing the same thing,
celebrating the birth of Jesus, but all the ways are unnecessary because Jesus indicated that it does not matter wether you worship at the Mountain or in Jerusalem. here is fine. or something like that. Its Just another case of the trappings
being worshipped not God.

JC FR3AK
12-27-01, 02:19 PM
I did not mean to imply that one way of worshiping Yaweh was better than another, but simply this: The churches' old-fashioned ideas are giving all Christians a bad review by young people (and older ones too:D. ) Isn't it time they started presenting the Gospel in a new and RELEVENT way. I have never met a single person at my school who is remotely interested in the Christmas service and that is the only one they all go to. SORT IT OUT!(please)

GRANTM
12-27-01, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by JC FR3AK
I did not mean to imply that one way of worshiping Yaweh was better than another, but simply this: The churches' old-fashioned ideas are giving all Christians a bad review by young people (and older ones too:D. ) Isn't it time they started presenting the Gospel in a new and RELEVENT way. I have never met a single person at my school who is remotely interested in the Christmas service and that is the only one they all go to. SORT IT OUT!(please)

I dont have any problem with how anyone worships God individually, after all it is individual worship that is necessary.

Relevence, is that individuals interpretation. The problem is that we look for others interpretation & perception to justify our interps.Then think that what is different from us, is wrong. If a person is solid in their beliefs, outside perception, does not matter, They then would appreciate something new and look at
positives,Not as a threat. Human nature being what it is, though almost goes by that which is different than us must be wrong.
thats what starts confrontation.

People are more concerned with justifying their own beliefs than what they believe in.

Churches are the same, the same inertia exists in the churches as exists in any beaurocracy," this is what we believe, this is how we are to believe, this is the way we do it." And we are right.
(Implication the other is wrong)
For any organization, it is very hard, to overcome that inertia, for it flies in the face of tradition and the philosophy that caused it to establish itself in the first place.

Should it change. The tough part of that is" What should it change" More conservative,? More liberal, more Charismatics,
Where does our Churches differences end and another Churches Difference begin.

What Suggestions do you have, and at what cost?

JC FR3AK
12-27-01, 03:35 PM
The Roman Catholic church recently predicted that the church in England would be dead within the next few years. This alone shows that the church as a whole needs to shape up. Church attendance is droppng, secular living is on the up. The church needs to become more modern or in a few years the church as we know it will slowly fade out and a new sort of church will have to be formed. I predict that whatever we do about it the church will modernise: either by replacement or by the existing church changing it's attitude. The choise is up to the church but it will be far easier for the church to become more friendly and welcoming than for an unexperienced generation to have to set up it's own church.
e.g The Church of England has the funding, the trained people and the premisis to hold a huge outreach campain and show people that the Gospel is still relevent, but does it? It is quite happy to care for those who come to them but that is it. As far as I know anyway! But if they have done anything in my area I haven't heard. We need to get out and TELL PEOPLE.

GRANTM
12-27-01, 04:27 PM
First things first On another thread I have proposed that Religion has Outlived its Usefulness and what is required is to worship God on a One-to-one basis

Point Two The Church of England in Canada, Represented by the Anglican Church Of Canada, At least one complete parish (Caribou parish) is bankrupt due to successful lawsuits by native peoples of Child abuse in the schools run by theat church, If that is how they ran their schools they deserve to be financially bankrupt because they were morally bankrupt long before. Many more lawsuits are before the courts, catholic and protestant churches alike,
If they are guilty, They are responsible for their actions, not God and is an example of how religion can corrupt.

Native groups now throught North America are looking at the results of this Court case to help them in their law suits.
so All Churches could well be in Trouble Financially.
But This does not Negate God. Churches are a Trapping, You do not need a church to worship God.

The Church of England (Episcopal church in the USA) Was Wholly conceived as a political entity, It was with extreme arrogance
that Henry VIII created His Home Grown religion by Virtue of the the "Defender of the Faith" When the Pope wouldn't grant him a divorce. The "Defender of the Faith" Title Was Granted Prior
to his separation from the Roman Catholic Church. But is still in use today by Quen Elizabeth II In her formal Title.

The Roman Catholic Church is not much better,
But they have more money than the Church of England so they have a better chance of surviving the war of attrition.

Churches today are so stuck in their dogma, and the inertia so great, it is next to Impossible to change. Which is why there are over 200 Churches and almost ten times that number sects within the "protestant" Church.

Hey Go for it set up your own Church.

dearlyloved
12-27-01, 04:45 PM
JCFR3AK-

Thought you might find this interesting- this is part of an article I have from someone whose ministry I admire...........

God help us if we are to reach this generation with our present reproductive organs. Spiritually impotent, with no desire to reproduce anything more that a perfect religious specimen. The thought of any more identical organisms descending upon us is frightening.

God is raising up a new breed. They are young energetic, and have no clue about religious games. They could be anywhere. Perhaps in the backyard of their home polishing their Mustang convertible, maybe watching Bart Simsom in some disgusting dilemma or laughing at the heroic vulgarity of Beevis and Butthead, or moving to the rhythm of gangster rap, or maybe singing “I love you “ with Barney or Mr. Rodgers.

God knows where they are and is able to raise them up. Do we recognized these warriors these Princes these royal heirs......?

Some of them are possibly enjoying intriguing fellowship with the Lord while swiftly disposing of a few lions and bears, and not bothering whether these “victories” are ever published in the latest bulletin of “Evang-elastic” signs and wonders. They are not concerned as to whether any one hears about their victories, as long as God users their victories to bring about another “greater” victory at another place, another time, proving that little stones can go a very long way.



Another danger in on the horizon at this time. A generation without a prophetic voice will drive church leaders to tap into familiar spirits.

Samuel, the prophet, had died, Saul had driven another prophet , David into seclusion .... no prophetic influence, means no direction.....

Not only that but Saul had killed the priests, in the kingdom, which meant that without prophetic and priestly influence, the king had no balance. You cannot operate as a king in the kingdom without prophetic or priestly presence....



Today there is a major onslaught against:

Prophetic preaching, prophets, prophetic music and prophesying.
Priestly intercession. Warfare, Intimacy in worship, etc.

Most churches are void of paracletos presence, and interruptions, hoping that God will fit into their program, without transfiguration.

JC FR3AK
12-28-01, 12:50 PM
Hi GrantM, having thought about it maybe a complete overhaul is necissary.:D

JC FR3AK
12-28-01, 12:55 PM
Hi Dearlyloved, thanks for your post. I especialy agree with your last comment about God being expected to fit in! I heard about a pentecostal church which was so precise to it's timetable that one minute before the service was due to start the pastors' wife was running up and down the isle trying to shut everyone up. Do you want to know why? Because someone was speaking in tounges!:mad:

Brandan
12-28-01, 10:33 PM
Yes, the church SHOULD modernize. But not by spiffing up their worship services. Get them out of large church buildings, and go back to homes to meet in like the early church did.

GRANTM
12-29-01, 10:42 AM
Happy New Year to all, May every person receive the Joy, Happiness, Peace and Prosperity so desparetly needed at this Time. May God bless all, who are in harms way, as we head into the New Year.

Kermie: Couldn't agree more,

I feel that the Peace and Love
The Bible and all the other Scriptures talk about, is the Internal peace and love, The peaceful soul, The love of the self, ( of course I am not talking about narcissism here) to have the confidence to strive in the pursuit of Perfection, to confidently expand positive boundries of society and dispell the myths
and darkness that surround us. To question and to learn.
without fear of persecution, derision or humiliation.

dearlyloved
12-29-01, 03:14 PM
Thought these were awesome articles and wanted to share- goes along with what we're talking about here!

A paragraph from Chip Brogden's article- Jesus is Building His Church!

Jesus is not building a denomination or founding a movement. The Church is not a denomination, but neither is it a non-denomination. It is not a steeple-house or institutional church, but neither is it a house church. Stated simply, the Church is a spiritual house of living stones, invisible to the naked eye, but clearly seen and known in Spirit. It is not an organization, but an organism. Who are its members? Those who have the revelation of Jesus Christ. Where are these members to be found? They are scattered in all directions, both inside and outside of Organized Religion.

A paragraph from Chip Brogden's article- Escape From Churhianity

The Church, the Lord's Ecclesia, is the synthesis of individuals who have the Revelation of Jesus and have come to Him to receive Him as their Life. Here is where the confusion begins. We glibly use the term "church" to describe things which are not The Lord's Ecclesia. A building devoted to religious meetings is called "the church". Attending a religious meeting is called "going to church." Hearing a good message or good music during the religious meeting is called "having church" (a popular tune says "crank up the music, let's have church!"). Becoming a member of the non-profit organization which owns the building devoted to religious meetings is called "joining the church". Taking responsibility as the founder or being voted in as the director of the non-profit organization which owns the building devoted to religious meetings is called "pastoring the church". Making additions to the building devoted to religious meetings or to the membership list of the non-profit organization which owns the building is called "church growth".

Why are we being so facetious and wordy? Why do we choose our phraseology carefully? For the sake of convenience, or just plain laziness, people have grown accustomed to saying "church" instead of "a non-profit organization that owns a building devoted to religious meetings." Whatever nomenclature you decide upon, we are drawing the line and making a distinction between "The Church" and "church". We hope to impress upon you the difference between what people customarily call "church" and what the Lord considers to be "The Church". As demonstrated above, much of what we call "church" is simply Organized Religion. It is not the Lord's Ecclesia.

GRANTM
12-29-01, 04:48 PM
Hello Dearlyloved:

Just a Quick Question here:

In regard to the Above,

Are Jesus and God Interchangeable here?

As in God existed long before Jesus, personified himself as Jesus, and then sheds his earthly body and goes back to being
the Spirit?

Or is that you can't have one without the other?

Or is it something else?


Thanks in advance.

dearlyloved
12-29-01, 07:09 PM
Hello GRANTM-

If I am understanding you correctly, you are asking the age old question of the trinity. Am I right?

GRANTM
12-29-01, 07:22 PM
Hi Dearlyloved

If I am understanding you correctly, you are asking the age old question of the trinity. Am I right?

Nooooooo, I stay away from that,
I have no right to go there,
that is whyI posted the way I did. for a reference point to "Church Ecclesia"
For it is a very interesting article.

The Trinity, Nope stay away from that I do I do

Have a good evening.

dearlyloved
12-29-01, 08:21 PM
shew- glad to hear that- I was not ready to go there! :D

Jep
12-29-01, 08:56 PM
"Yes, the church SHOULD modernize. But not by spiffing up their worship services. Get them out of large church buildings, and go back to homes to meet in like the early church did."

ME: Yep says Jep. That's the way it started, didn't it? And what was wrong with this? Nothing, it was perfect. Christians gathering together with only one purpose: To share, enjoy and praise Jesus Christ. Everyone participates, There is no man-made hierarchy, no man is elevated, God is. No "tithes" going to buy the pastor a gold plated Mercedes. No long prayers in $400.00 suits with a Rolex watch reminiscent of the Pharisees. No cute worship director in a low cut dress with a sultry voice and a 10 piece band backing her. Heck, I guess I'm a radical. But I long for a real church.

GRANTM
12-29-01, 09:11 PM
Hep! Jep said Yep

Sorry Couldn't Resist:D

The Church of Independant Study, Come as you are, where you are, When you want.

Heck I might even join.

Grant agrees with JEPS rant who says you cant

Brandan
12-30-01, 09:40 AM
Jep, I'm a radical...

I'm starting a house church here in St. Louis. If anyone wants to come to the meetings, just let me know!