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Dr. Szo
12-30-01, 10:39 PM
Work with any question you wish to take up.

What should the power of faith express in man?

What is the power of faith?

Why hasn't man yet tapped into this power?

Why hasn't the spirit in man grasped it?

Why is man, regardless of denomination, in poverty of faith's true power as Jesus and Moses demonstrated?

Where should the power of faith accomplished in man by now?

Why has is the world not convinced of its transforming power?

How should the world recognize it?

Why do some have faith and then lose it?

Is faith too mercurial for man's nature, or is man too imperfect to possess it in a permanent way?

Dr. Szo

Fledge
12-31-01, 06:46 AM
Faith, true biblical faith, entails surrender; surrender moment-by-moment to God and His will...even if we don't understand it. Faith is entrusting our whole lives to Him and then trusting Him to do what He deems best. Since His will and ways are often different than ours, at times that surrender may well seem somewhat unpleasant. Faith says, "That's OK; He knows what He's doing."

Faith is also receiving the good things of life with an understanding that those things aren't the result of our efforts, but simply the work of Him who works all things according to the good pleasure of His will. Therefore, the highest prayer of faith is simply, "Thy will be done." In those words we affirm our trust in Him to do whatever He chooses. This is the sort of faith we can see echoed in Job's words:

Through He slay me, I will hope in Him

- Job 13:15

Andrew
12-31-01, 08:19 AM
My Pastor said that in the NT, esp in Paul writings, when the word faith is mentioned it usu refers to righteousness by faith. ie believing that you are right with God thru Christ finished work. its seldom faith for healing or miracles.

I believe this is the foundation for faith. ie b4 you can believe that God CAN and WILL do something for you, u need to believe that you and He are really OK. ie He sees you in the perfection of Christ. otherwise you'll always be wondering "do i really qualify??" "he'll do it for someone holier than me".

to me "faith" is simply believing that God CAN and WILL do what he says he CAN and WILL do in his Word.

and to me "believing" means more than just head agreement. u have to really believe it in your heart (it has to drop into your spirit). the test being that if you really believe, than you will speak it (confession) and act it (works), and expect it to come to pass.

confession is not repeating "by his stripes I'm healed" 10 times a day to receive a healing. but simply an outward flow of what's in your heart already. (Out of the abundance of the heart your mouth speaks) however, confessing in the former can help to get it into your heart, as if you are preaching to yourself.

faith and it's "power" are now being taught and grasped by many Christians, thanks to the WOF movt. A lot has been learnt, mistakes have been made and a lot more can be learned. but it has started again praise the Lord! I thank God for raising up men of faith down thru the century like Wigglesworth, John G. Lake, TL Osborn, Kenneth Hagin, Copelands, etc.

those who have not tapped into it are either not interested, ignorant or against the whole idea (eg cessationists).

Power of faith? Faith is the currency or medium that gets you tapped in to the power of the spirit realm/power of God. The power come from the Holy Ghost, since He's the one on earth now.

okay im rambling. but i think i also need to ask if you are talking abt righteous faith or faith for miracles?

Dr. Szo
12-31-01, 03:18 PM
ANDREW: "...I also need to ask if you are talking about righteous faith or faith for miracles?"

Andrew, take it to whatever level you wish, be it from a biblical perspective, or from your deepest inner spiritual self, or even from personal experience as applies to any of the questions you wish to work with. NO LIMITS.

Blessings,
Dr. Szo

Dr. Szo
12-31-01, 04:11 PM
CLARIFICATIONS on Topic Questions:


(2nd question)
What is the power of faith in it's essence?

(6th question)
Is man's intellect limited in such a way that it can not comprehend the fullness of how to work with faith?

(7th question)
Why isn't the world not convinced of its transforming power?

(last question)
What should the power of faith have accomplished in man by now?

Sorry folks. My 30 minute edit window had run out before I could return in time to review and make corrections.

Dr. Szo

GRANTM
12-31-01, 05:03 PM
Being a Person who believes in God but not a subscriber to any
Religion, I'm wondering If My opinions on this very interesting topic would be welcome or would it only convolute the intent of the Questions Andrew, fledge, Dr Szo, we have dicussed before,
And I respect your opinions, and will abide by them.

Dr. Szo
12-31-01, 06:41 PM
Grantm, your opinions, views, and expressions, whatever they may be, are 200% welcome and will be respected by all means. Only God decides what is or is not perfect.

So jump right in. You'll find the water warm.

Blessings,
Dr. Szo

GRANTM
01-01-02, 01:02 PM
First I would like to point out that all I Express here is My Philosophy, It is not meant as a right or wrong, but that which may be different, It is also not meant to be a belittling of any other persons Religious beliefs. Only that of thought provoking Ideas, Not that I expect an agreement, but just an appreciation of that which may be different.

Quote:
{What is the power of faith?}

The Power of faith, is that which is the peace of mind, of the individual, the inner peace, that provides the balance for the individual in order to grow,we cannot grow if we are in turmoil. and thus misinterpret Gods Guidance, To better harness that guidance in order to better appreciate the path that god has chosen for us to travel. As we travel more and our experiences increase. we need more faith for we need more peace of mind to maintain that balance.

Quote:
Why hasn't man yet tapped into this power?

I believe that there are two major causes here.
First I believe we worship God As An Object Rather that the subject.

Please Follow: When we pray we worship to God, When we should be worshipping with God,
eg) God Give me good health.
Or extreme: God please give me the numbers to win 10 million dollars we then feel slighted when we get sick or don't win.

I feel that the subjective, God please help me find the way to proper health. or God please help me to become more prosperous, If we follow the Guidance we will be in greater health to repel the germs that cause us to be sick. or become more prosperous.

You see God has given us free-will in order for us to do his great works, and when used properly, not onlyare these great works
great, we feel great when we do them, and not lack because our great works may not seem as great as some elses,or feel superior if we believe our work greater than others, but we all rejoice over the completions of all and thefore go on to do betterworks, and thusly more appreciate the path we are on.
and the paths the others are on.

Secondly, we fail to appreciate the need for us to travel the path God put us on, we see other paths that may seem better, and
our earthly wants of that path, conflct, and therefore interpret our great path as what we want, and not what God needs.


Quote:
{Why hasn't the spirit in man grasped it?}
I believe that this is because we do not see it as individualistic
but as a collective,

eg.) I know that I am on the right Path but because some one else interprets differently therefore must be wrong, (or I am) they(orI) fail to appreciate that while paths cross and for a while their paths may even coincide, different interpretations are required in order to do our tasks, because ultimately our paths are different.


Quote:
{Why is man, regardless of denomination, in poverty of faith's true power as Jesus and Moses demonstrated?}

I belive that this is because of the conditions and events of those times. and the failure of mankind to recognize those same conditions, in the here and now,

Moses = Egyptian empire, enslavement, torture, imposition of ones free will on another, the Egyption Change from the worship of one God to multiple Gods( you see now longer is God the subject of worship, but used as a justification for mans actions.) thus convoluting the message of the ONE God, and imposes mankind as God.

Jesus = hey just change Egyptian empire to Roman Empire.
all the rest hold true.



What we must remember is the same conditions held true
throughout the World with different empires, at different times and in no way shape or form am I intending to reduce the greatness of the actions of the mentioned people,
At Minimum They were truly devinely inspired, Godlike if not God himself , But this does not negate the others, who have the same attributes. in the other religions, and should also be appreciated.

Quote:
{Where should the power of faith accomplished in man by now?}

I feel we should have the Inner Peace, to stretch and increase our pursuit of knowledge, both inner and outer, to, without percieved threat and fear to better accomplish our tasks.

Quote:
{Why has is the world not convinced of its transforming power?}

How can we transform if we do not have that peace and therefore the confidence to transform.

I believe that in order for us to complete our tasks, God saddled us with two great Burdens,
Insecurity
that being that in order to do our tasks properly,we must study the problem, educate ouselves as to how to perform that task,
then with the help of the people around you, for that is why I believe paths converge, and for a while you travel together.
And then:

Arrogance; Being the ability to do the task,

The balance between these two is the Inner peace, as we grow
and complete our tasks our confidence builds, thus we are more secure, and as we needed help to complete our task our arrogance diminishes

Quote:
{How should the world recognize it?}

that our tasks are a part of Gods design that relate to an increase in mankinds knowledge base and an increase in a persons peace of mind.

Quote:
{Why do some have faith and then lose it?}

If we can assume here, that God is all around, in and through man at all times. and therfore the world, and as we are now
exploring the cosmos, there too. now the problem becomes that of the Individual,
as it is Individualistic I can only give the example as it relates to me, When religion and I closed the doors on each other
(Please this is a very dark time in my personal life and refuse to go there other to say it involved religion not religious beliefs.)But found That God Would not let me close the door on him, because during that time I trusted God, and for me it was then easy to
make the distincton between religion, and the worship with God,

But I rejoice with those who believe in God through their religion,
for that is how they are receiving their peace of mind to grow.
and those who are "Born again Christians" or other faiths because they are achieving their own Peace of mind and getting rid of the turmoil that existed so that they can grow,

Quote:
{Is faith too mercurial for man's nature, or is man too imperfect to possess it in a permanent way?}

I hope not and think not, Because I feel it is the path that God chose for us, is what is important here, The path, the pursuit of perfection, The pursuit of knowledge, the pursuit of inner peace, for without innerpeace it is impossible to have outer peace, and we cannot persue true knowledge in fear or turmoil, To stop in this pursuit is to consider ourselves as knowing everything that there is to know, therefore have no option to but to consider ourselves god because there would be no insecurity only arrogance. When we concentrate on that path, and our tasks within it ,with gods guidance, the destination then takes care of itself. by stopping explaining and spending time with others along the way we find when we approach others not in fear but that of difference, then maybe just maybe we can utilize these differenences to help us in our tasks along the way, to appreciate a different perspective, to mutually increase the power of the light from our lamps, to dispell the gloom that now surrounds us
along our appointed path. To Rejoice with others Regardless of religion or sect upon completion of tasks, to renew our determination of our Pursuit.

Corbin
01-02-02, 06:11 AM
greetings all :D

I have found an interesting article that relates to this discussion alot. Just scroll down to the part entitled Faith as a Product of Evolution. It doesn't really represent my own ideas entirely, but I think you all should take a look at it for some more insight.





http://www.positiveatheism.org/faq/faq1111.htm#WHATISPOSATH (http://)

GRANTM
01-02-02, 11:05 AM
Hi Corbin: Hope you had a Great Holiday,

Interesting Article, however I see two major flaws with their logic.
the biggest is that they treat God as an Object,
I believe, as you know,God a subject.

Two, they do not acknowledge, the Balance of Inner Peace, The assumption they makeis that Their faith ( the belief in the non belief of God.) is that eliminate God and you eliminate the turmoil, as you know, If you try to eliminate anything, the void will be filled up. with something else,

But in looking at their whole web site, I feel that, in trying to justify themselves thy find it necessary to attack religion,
as an example of that is their commentary on the Ten Commandments,(Which Ten Commandments) Conveniently they disregard any mention of How Moses Got The Laws. Even if it was Moses That Wrote the laws, Wether a law is Number Six Or Number four, Does not negate the laws.

I ask you to consider, Why is it necessary to use the differences between Judaeism, Christianity, Islam, as their main focus of their justification of the belief in the non belief of God?

Debbiek
01-02-02, 03:59 PM
Acts 1:8 & elsewhere states that the power of man's faith is the Holy Spirit. ("But you shall recieve power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you"...) Luke 1:35 (..."The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Highest shall overcome thee...") The reason this has not been realized or fully tapped into is because there is lack of teaching in the church about the Holy Spirit individually & His power also. Another reason is the misguided & incorrect information that is currently being taught about the Holy Spirit & His power. (i.e."proof" "sounds" signs" "tongues" "let go & let God") Many churches teach that in order to recieve the "infilling" or "baptism" of the Holy Spirit, an individual must,"let go & let God"=promoting total abandonment of one's mind making it a blank slate to allow God to do His work in you. This is ludicrous because God doesnt need your help to do His "will", but satan needs a Christian to leave their mind abandoned for a demon to gain entrance. They gain entrance. Therefore, demons are prevelant in SOME churches/people that teach the power of the Holy Spirit which is obvious to other Christians they later try to teach. This causes the new Christians to stay away from any teachings of the Holy Spirit. The boasting, proud attititudes, & "I'm a better Christian than you" or the "I'm more spiritual than you" attitude of those who have recieved the power of the Holy Spirit, is not of God. This attitude/demon influence makes other Christians shy away from any Holy Spirit instruction/teaching. In answer to the question can it(power) be lost , yes. Acts 5 :1-11 describes the death of Ananias & Sapphira for lying to the Holy Spirit.

Dr. Szo
01-02-02, 06:06 PM
Debbiek: "The reason this has not been realized or fully tapped into is because there is lack of teaching in the church about the Holy Spirit individually & His power also. Another reason is the misguided & incorrect information that is currently being taught about the Holy Spirit & His power."

Good point Debbiek:

So now where does this problem leave you and others? Do you need the church to teach you what they themselves have not known? Or can you go to the source itself? And what do yopu think you need to do that the church cannot provide you with to make a connection with the Holy Spirit?

Dr. Szo

Debbiek
01-02-02, 07:35 PM
I'll tell you where it leaves me Dr. Szo, it leaves me in Biblical research & prayer. It makes me be cautious of my methods. It makes me to NOT seek & NOT hope for a supernatural SPIRITUAL MANIFESTATION. It makes me want to take the Holy Spirit as a person of the Trinity instead of desiring mainly His power & gifts He can give me. When I originally converted to Christianity I didn't believe in Jesus in hope that He would give me special powers & physical manifestations & gifts. It should be the same with the 3rd person of the Trinity. What about you Dr. Szo?

Dr. Szo
01-03-02, 12:57 AM
Hello Debbiek:


"It makes me want to take the Holy Spirit as a person of the Trinity..."

But even this is supernatural Debbiek. For everything that comes from God is supernatural in nature, even The Holy Spirit. Were you to experience the Holy Spirit, it would be a supernatural experience for you, and it would also be a gift, and it would be a fire to you?


When I originally converted to Christianity I didn't believe in Jesus in hope that He would give me special powers & physical manifestations & gifts. It should be the same with the 3rd person of the Trinity. What about you Dr. Szo?"

You asked, and this might be more than you expected to read, but it is the truth: I was not converted by any church or preacher, nor by anyone's sermon. It wasn't how it happened for me, and I'm grateful for it.

I didn't even know religion or Jesus; my parents were not church going people. But in 1972, I purchased my first Bible, not knowing what I was getting myself into Debbiek. After reading the entire Bible cover to cover, I worked with six disciplines of Jesus, and one from the Old Testament: seven total. On the sixth month, I was launched into a transforming supernatural spiritual experience in the spirit, too long an event in my life to write here; and it is the subject of a book underway right now as well. From behind me, my spirit was lifted by something like a breeze, but stronger than a breeze. It carried me through a specific path of angles, which eventually, to my astonishment, took my spirit into the presence of the ascended Christ. In his presence I experienced what it was to be claimed by him; and I instantly experienced within me his authority over all mankind, whether they knew him or not; and he baptised me in the spirit in the presence of another witness who was there. When this event was complete, as I was being returned to my body, I had the fortunate experience of hearing the most wonderful sound of angelic voices singing; they produced a divine sound which seemed to bind the universe together, a song not in words. And I understood the meaning Luke 15:10.

This, for me, was my first day of life and breath, my day of transformation and discovery. My life has never been the same since; and he has been with me throughout all my years. He changed my life and directed me into the healing arts and spiritual counseling.

We tend to think that we find Jesus and the Holy spirit, but it is the other way around. He finds us when we are ready to be found, or when we are attuned to his spirit frequency through the laws of spirit as set forth by God for man's connection to Him.

Your way of prayer is good. It is one way of attunement to him.

As for the trinity concept. This is not anywhere in the Bible, and Jesus does not mention this. It is a concept which was developed by the Christian church under King Constantine at a time when there were various versions of the Bible and none of then agreed. Frustrated, the king locked all the Bishops into one room until they came out with one version, and out of that committeee also came the Trinity concept, as I recall. Not that it doesn't have merit. But without any foreknowledge of this concept, Christ found me and saved my soul when I didn't know I needed any saving at all. What do I need? Nothing. And without seeking any gifts, they were given automatically because the door to the spirit had been flung open for me. I was not something I sought after since I had no foreknowledge of it. But I now have a responsibility to share what I received, come what may, because it was given through him.

To me, the Holy Spirit is the living breath of God, and the son has always been with the Father as the seeds of my sons were always within me. I have no reason for separating God into three parts. He is ONE, has always been ONE, and will always be One' "I AM THAT I AM." When one experiences God, one also experiences Christ; when one experiences Christ, one also experiences God; when one experiences the breath of God, one experiences the living spirit fire that is with them.

This is why it is written in The Gospel of Thomas, Jesus said, "He who comes close to me comes close to the fire." He also says; "Whoever knows the All but fails to know himself lacks everything." He also said, "If you bring forth that within yourselves, that which you have will save you."

We should seek God's "supernatural" love above all else, and what you call the trinity is complete in this love.

Dr. Szo

Debbiek
01-08-02, 12:56 PM
God Bless you Dr. Szo, what an uplifting message. I appreciate your candid response. I have been doing my own research on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit & most people find it difficult to describe to me. Thank you. Scripture mentions the Father, Son, & Holy Ghost in verses together. 3 in one verse. I see the Trinity as being the Physical father, physical son, & Spirit of both, which is used to communicate with us. I am anxiuos to read your book. One question, Do you believe in praying for gifts of the Spirit? Or do you believe that "as HE wills" means we should not pray. Yet Paul states to "earnestly desire", which usually would include prayer. In JEsus' name. Debbie.... question 2: Now what are your subsequent "refillings" of the spirit like? ty so much.

Dr. Szo
01-08-02, 10:29 PM
Hi Debbiek:

One question, Do you believe in praying for gifts of the Spirit? Or do you believe that "as HE wills" means we should not pray.
With regard to prayer. Know, I don't believe in praying for the gifts of the spirit. I believe that prayer should be applied mostly as a means to carry one's love to the Father. I see prayer as the wings on which our deepest love for God can be sent to Him. Prayer is often misused for personal reason, and we know very well that the Lord knows our needs before we do, so why waste time asking. Spend as much of you rtime in prayer connecting, until His love is felt within you so loud and clear that you will know Him. God provides gifts of the spirit on His terms, not ours. When we know His love fully, and when He knows we will be responsible and ready to receive spiritual gifts of another kind, then He will do it. In the meantime, use that one gift you now have, learn to apply love in the highest manner you can muster up from within you. Let ride on your prayer wings until your love captures God's love. Then you will know and be known in a manner you never expected.

Blessings,
Dr. Szo

Debbiek
01-08-02, 11:02 PM
DR. Szo, thankyou for expressing your heartfelt knowledge. I had been debating the matter & leaning toward "as he wills". thank you, In Jesus' name, Debbie