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greg2
01-13-02, 03:51 PM
When you see God what do you think he looks like I believe he looks like LOVE what are your thoughts? Love never fails

Fledge
01-13-02, 05:11 PM
What does love look like?

Christ_†_Alone
01-13-02, 06:55 PM
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

greg2
01-13-02, 08:09 PM
I agree he is spirit too but what do you see when someone is helping the lame or blind or poor souls of this world?One more thought what do you see when Jesus is hanging on the cross i think God or Love has a picture...Blessed are your eyes

smugg
01-17-02, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by Christ_†_Alone
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

This is interesting to me. The books of the Bible seem to disagree here. On the one hand, there are many statements that God cannot (or should not) be seen (mostly in the New Testament):


Thou canst not see may face: for there shall no man see me and live. -- Exodus 33:20

No man hath seen God at any time. -- John 1:18

Not that any man hath seen the Father. -- John 6:46

Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. -- 1 Timothy 1:17

Whom no man hath seen nor can see. -- 1 Tim.6:16

No man hath seen God at any time. -- 1 Jn.4:12

But there are other passages which either describe God's physical body or report that He was seen:


And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him. -- Genesis 12:7

And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. -- Genesis 32:30

Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink. -- Exodus 24:9-11

And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend. -- Exodus 33:11

And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts. -- Exodus 33:23

For they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face. -- Numbers 14:14

I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. -- 1 Kings 22:19

To see thy power and they glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary. -- Psalms 63:2

For mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts. -- Isaiah 6:5

Cephas
01-25-02, 09:50 PM
But there are other passages which either describe God's physical body or report that He was seen:

So, when someone says, I see what your saying, do you actually think they see their words?

Twonky
01-25-02, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by Cephas


So, when someone says, I see what your saying, do you actually think they see their words?

No.

If someone says, "I see your physical body sitting in that chair," they really see someone's physical body in a chair?

Cephas
01-26-02, 09:26 AM
No. If someone says, "I see your physical body sitting in that chair," they really see someone's physical body in a chair?

Not when it pertains to God. I think when we read-I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. -- 1 Kings 22:19 it is describing attributes in terms people of that day could understand. I don't see the conradiction.

Twonky
01-26-02, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by Cephas
...it is describing attributes in terms people of that day could understand. I don't see the conradiction.

O.K. How do you know what is written for people in those times and what is written for people now? Is there a key somewhere?

Cephas
01-26-02, 09:04 PM
originally posted by Twonky
O.K. How do you know what is written for people in those times and what is written for people now? Is there a key somewhere?

It was written for us as well but today’s worldview is completely different then that of 4000, 3000, 2000 or even 100 years ago. Would you agree? When we read the Bible, worldviews have to be taken into account. Not only that but what literary genre does it fall under, what was the culture at the time, what modes of feeling are being expressed. For me, the key to understanding all these things is through the authority of the Catholic Church and Tradition. In Tradition, we can look to extra-biblical writings or the oral tradition of the early Church and of our Jewish ancestry and discern what we call God’s pedagogy. So, just as the Constitution has the Supreme Court to interpret it, I believe the authority of the Catholic Church has the same role with Scripture.

Twonky
01-26-02, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by Cephas
...through the authority of the Catholic Church and Tradition

But where in scripture does it say that you need to go into a 'confession booth' to get forgiveness?

And where in scripture does it say anything about purgatory?

What about 'hail marys' and 'our fathers' or that other stuff? Where is THAT in scripture?

Isn't the bible supposed to be the true authority, not a man made religion?

Cephas
01-26-02, 10:21 PM
Twonky,


But where in scripture does it say that you need to go into a 'confession booth' to get forgiveness?

It doesn’t say you have to go into a ‘confession booth’ anywhere in Scripture that I know of.


And where in scripture does it say anything about purgatory?

Probably the same place it talks about the Trinity or the Hypostatic union.


What about 'hail marys' and 'our fathers' or that other stuff? Where is THAT in scripture?

It’s in there. An Angel said ‘Hail Mary’ and Jesus said the ‘Our Father’.


Isn't the bible supposed to be the true authority, not a man made religion?

What makes the Bible a true authority and what makes a religion ‘man made’?

Twonky
01-27-02, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Cephas

Probably the same place it talks about the Trinity or the Hypostatic union.

And where is that?


What makes the Bible a true authority and what makes a religion ‘man made’?

Well, maybe I'm mistaken here, but don't Catholic's believe that the Bible is the word of God? Wouldn't that fact alone make it a true authority?

Where in the bible does it say you have to go to a confessional, confess your sins to a priest, and then have to do something (i.e. say 'Hail Marys' and 'Our Fathers') to be forgiven? Doesn't that belittle what Jesus did on the cross? Wasn't him dying on the cross sufficient for all sins?

Cephas
01-27-02, 04:21 PM
quote by Twonky

Well, maybe I'm mistaken here, but don't Catholic's believe that the Bible is the word of God? Wouldn't that fact alone make it a true authority?

Yes. But, the Church was in existence before the Canon of Scripture so there was some other authority in place beforehand. That other authority was/is the Church.


Where in the bible does it say you have to go to a confessional, confess your sins to a priest, and then have to do something (i.e. say 'Hail Marys' and 'Our Fathers') to be forgiven? Doesn't that belittle what Jesus did on the cross? Wasn't him dying on the cross sufficient for all sins?

Yes, of course, Christ dying on the cross forgives all sins. The Church believes their authority is rooted in apostolic succession and, through that succession, the sacrament of penance. We can read in John 20:21-23 when Jesus says,-- ‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’--. I don’t believe confession belittles what Jesus did on the cross but makes one more aware of it. By confessing to a Priest, I learn a lesson of humility, which would be avoided in private prayer. There is a psychology to it that is most important.

countrymouse
01-28-02, 07:54 AM
Hi Cephas, Twonky!

Cephas, I'd like to add one comment, perhaps a corrective, to your idea about the church and the canonized Bible. The church had, from the late first century onward, all of the books that were later canonized as the Bible. In fact, canonization of the New Testament, although agreement took some time and much debate, was ultimately based on common use and acceptance.

While I don't see any harm in confessing one's sins to a trusted mentor in the faith, the scripture you quoted does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that we have to do so. There is an earthly, temporal aspect to punishment for sin. The implications for the scripture about authority to forgive or hold guilty is most likely played out in this account of early church life, from Acts 5:

But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2and kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4While it remained, did it not remain thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thy heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God. 5And Ananias hearing these words fell down and gave up the ghost: and great fear came upon all that heard it. 6And the young men arose and wrapped him round, and they carried him out and buried him. 7And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. 8And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much. And she said, Yea, for so much. 9But Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to try the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them that have buried thy husband are at the door, and they shall carry thee out. 10And she fell down immediately at his feet, and gave up the ghost: and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her by her husband. 11And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all that heard these things.
1901 American Standard Version, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1994.

Food for thought!

Happy truth hunting,
countrymouse

Cephas
01-29-02, 05:01 PM
Hello Countrymouse,


Orginally quoted by countrymouse

Cephas, I'd like to add one comment, perhaps a corrective, to your idea about the church and the canonized Bible. The church had, from the late first century onward, all of the books that were later canonized as the Bible. In fact, canonization of the New Testament, although agreement took some time and much debate, was ultimately based on common use and acceptance.

Yes, I agree with you but there were many other Gospels and letters that existed at that time as well. Have you ever read the gospel of Mary or the gospel of Barnabus? Very interesting reads and sometimes quite off the wall.


The implications for the scripture about authority to forgive or hold guilty is most likely played out in this account of early church life, from Acts 5:

I must say, I have never heard that kind of interpretation of Acts 5. Quite frankly, no one likes to get close to Acts 5. I appreciate your honesty.

countrymouse
01-29-02, 05:09 PM
Hi Cephas!

I haven't read the other materials you mentioned, but I have seen excerpts and heard comments. I can tell that quite a lot of it was off the wall. I have read excerpts from several of the post-apostolic fathers, and some of their ideas sound questionable to me as well.


Yup, Acts 5 is not fun reading! You don't hear many sermons about it either. Thanks for the comments!


Blessings to you,
countrymouse

HIS
01-30-02, 04:38 AM
I agree with CA and others who say that God is (a) SPIRIT, and no man has seen God at any time.

All spirit beings are invisible to the human eye. And, as stated already through the Scripture (another post), God is invisible.

Of course the other posting that suggested men had seen God "face to face" are only referring to the Theophany "images" that God took upon during His self-revelations to mankind through the ages. These were all done in accordence to His divine plan and will for mankind. They were only a means whereby God could reveal Himself to man "face to face."

The greatest image God took was when He came in the form of man when He conceived in Mary and was manifested in the flesh (God with us).

This flesh was called the Son of God.

For those of you (and I hope all) who believe that Jesus is God, it is easy to say or agree that many heard, saw, and handled (touched) God "face to face."

Yet, at the same time, we can also agree or say that "even in the person of Jesus Christ, no one has truly seen the true essence or being of God." We should be able to say this, because this is what the Scripture also declared.

This (I think) is why God despises graven images. NO IMAGE represents His essential "being" since God is SPIRIT and omnipresent.

However, JESUS CHRIST represents all that God originally planned to be (in self-revelation to mankind) and that God truly is...

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

2 Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life.

There are many more scriptures...These are just a few.

Grace and Peace to you,
HIS