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Flip Special
01-15-02, 03:54 PM
Kermie, I noticed from your profile that you are a Calvinist. Also, if I were a betting man, I'd bet the house on your not being the only one.

I struggle in the battle of Calvinism vs. Arminianism (sp?). My mind is really bothered at my struggle, and i wish I could settle on a certain stance! Maybe I don't know enough!! Please help when you have a chance, I really, really want to learn!! Thanks!!

At the moment, I believe that God has predestined certain people to be great leaders for Him. For instance, God told Jeremiah in Jer. 1:5 that He had appointed him to be a prophet. However, I also believe in free-will, and I think that Jeremiah could have rejected God's desire for him, forcing God to use somebody else. My problem and area of fuzziness comes in the salvation of everyday people like myself.

What becomes of those who were not predestined to be saved? Do they have a chance to come to Christ, or does God harden their hearts so that they will never allow the Holy Spirit to penetrate? Romans 9:18 says that God hardens whom He choosees to harden. It bothers me to think that God would block certain people from coming to Him.

Can somebody please help me iron out the wrinkles? I would be very grateful! Thanks and God bless!

Brandan
01-15-02, 04:01 PM
Hey Flip,

I sympathize with your dillemma, as I too once struggled with these issues.

I have to go for now, but will get back to you I promise.... In the time being, I recommend you read these two articles if you find time.

http://www.5solas.org/media.php?id=166

http://www.5solas.org/media.php?id=33

Also, there are some good threads on here that deal with this issue....

http://www.predestinarian.net/showthread.php?threadid=26

http://www.predestinarian.net/showthread.php?threadid=381

I'll get back to you later tonight though, I promise...

Your friend,
Brandan

Christ_†_Alone
01-15-02, 04:25 PM
Hi Flip,

I too sympathize with your position, since I was there once myself.

I'd be happy to answer/discuss any questions you may have about reformed theology.

All of the articles Kermie posted, will help you - you just have to take the time to really read through them.

There are LOTS more in the library here that he didn't post links to, but it's a goldmine, nonetheless. (he's such a busy little ole frog, always hopping to and fro', that ole kerm, lol).

Also at BF community, we have a Reformed Theology page, that might be of some help to you.

In additions :D we have a chat room that's open every evening, God willing, where these things can be discussed.

We're here for you, fire away :D

Christ_†_Alone
01-15-02, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by Flip Special
What becomes of those who were not predestined to be saved?

For starters... read these verses carefully.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I have to run, dinner's ready - but tell me if you see something there, a specific message, perhaps?

Brandan
01-15-02, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by Flip Special
Kermie, I noticed from your profile that you are a Calvinist. Also, if I were a betting man, I'd bet the house on your not being the only one.
Yep, you're right there! Christ_Alone, countrymouse, Odyssey, and myself are the resident Calvinists here. In fact, this website is dedicated to teaching the doctrines of grace (it's on the front page).


I struggle in the battle of Calvinism vs. Arminianism (sp?). My mind is really bothered at my struggle, and i wish I could settle on a certain stance! Maybe I don't know enough!! Please help when you have a chance, I really, really want to learn!! Thanks!!I know exactly what you mean. I have struggled off and on with certain theological issues throughout my pilgrimage. If we ever get to a point in our Biblical studies where we aren't struggling with a particular issue or doctrine, we must not be studying too hard eh? So, in a sense, the struggle is good.

My advice for you is to sit down with an open mind, an open bible, and some books or articles on what both sides have to say about the issue and pray really hard. God will continue to reveal his truths to you.


At the moment, I believe that God has predestined certain people to be great leaders for Him. For instance, God told Jeremiah in Jer. 1:5 that He had appointed him to be a prophet. No arguments from me here.


However, I also believe in free-will, and I think that Jeremiah could have rejected God's desire for him, forcing God to use somebody else.Remember the story of Jonah, and how he rebelled against God? God certainly used him didn't he? It took a slimy ride in the belly of a whale, but God got what he wanted out of Jonah.


My problem and area of fuzziness comes in the salvation of everyday people like myself.

What becomes of those who were not predestined to be saved? Do they have a chance to come to Christ, or does God harden their hearts so that they will never allow the Holy Spirit to penetrate?Those who are not predestined spend eternity in hell. Is it God's fault? Absolutely not. To think that He would save just one hell bound sinner is an amazing thing... Those people who's hearts are hardened by God deserve to have their heart hardened, and so do we, but God in His mercy chose to redeem some wretched people and call us His own.


Romans 9:18 says that God hardens whom He choosees to harden. It bothers me to think that God would block certain people from coming to Him.Oh, I can certainly understand why you might find this bothersome. But let me tell you how God hardens hearts... First, man is so sinful, that without God's influence in their lives (that's any man who's lived), nothing good would ever come of them. We can't exaggerate this point enough. Left on your own, you could easily turn into the next Hitler or Stalin. The only reason you see God in His wondrous glory is because He revealed Himself to you. Those whom He has chosen not to reveal Himself to, He has instead, hardened their hearts. How does He do this? He simply allows these sin loving folk to fulfill the desires of their heart! He lifts His providential hand from their lives, and lets sin run the full course. In effect, He is hardening their hearts via his passive decrees.


Can somebody please help me iron out the wrinkles? I would be very grateful! Thanks and God bless!
Stick around here, ask lots of questions, and we'll be happy to help you through this... That's what we're here for....

Brandan

Fledge
01-15-02, 08:46 PM
Hey there!
I'm neither. Not totally calvinist in my beliefs, not totally arminian in my beliefs. On most points, I do tend to lean much more toward the calvinist point of view.
I have minor problems with certain aspects of calvinism, but I totally understand their points, just don't totally agree with them.

HOWEVER, I am open to change and when/if God reveals to me that my thinking is wrong or flawed in any way...well then, I'll change my thinking to match His. Cause He sure ain't gunna change His way of thinking to match mine!!
I seek to know Him and His Word as fully as is possible. I seek to have as much understanding of His ways and His methods as I can. I seek to be as scripturally sound and doctrinally correct as is possible and I seek above all else a closer more intimate relationship with my Creator.

So I am in this journey with you as far as the soteriological theologies and philosophies are concerned. I look forward to growing and learning with you all!!

countrymouse
01-15-02, 09:42 PM
Hello, Flip!

It's good to know that you're seeking understanding of the doctrines of God's grace. I agree with what Kermie and CA said, and the articles are excellent.

I used to have the same doubts and objections as well. It does, on the surface, appear that God would be monstrous not to give everyone an equal opportunity to believe. But Kermie's right; none of us deserve any opportunity at all!

Arminians tend to argue that their system glorifies God more, because they say that his grace is universal. Therefore everyone gets the same chance. But do they? I'm sure you've often thought about the dilemna of those who never hear the gospel at all. If God wanted everyone to have a chance, wanted everyone to have eternal life, as they say he does, would he allow large numbers of people in every generation to die without hearing the gospel??? Isn't he powerful enough and good enough to make sure everyone gets to hear?

Compare that model of God's will with this one:

It was never God's intention to enter into fellowship with the whole human race. God chose, from the beginning, to create a community of humans to be in perfect fellowship with him. Before any of us were even born, he knew each and every individual one of us. No, we're not robots, programmed to choose; it's a dynamic relationship. It's just not a relationship between equals.
He won't allow any of his elect children to perish; he applies his grace to all our lives, so that his word, his gospel, will produce repentance and faith in us. He is perfectly able and willing to give all of us eternal life!

The first and foremost thing you have to do, of course, is decide which model is Biblical. Still, which model do you think actually glorifies God?

Keep on seeking, knocking, and asking!

Flip Special
01-15-02, 09:48 PM
Thanks so much, you two (Christ Alone and Kermie)! Wow, I really appreciate the time you both put in! Kermie, thanks for those articles and your answers to various parts of my original post! I must say that I have read those articles and have read your reply, and it makes great sense to me! Now my next step is to heed your advice with an open mind and an open Bible, and search for the truth.

My personal story of how I came to Christ certainly sides with that of the Calvinistic approach. I was just minding my own business one afternoon in my room when a strong desire for Christ filled my being. I tried to ignore the urge to submit to Jesus and went out with the guys to the bar that night, but I was excited all evening because I knew that my life was soon going to change drastically; I basically had no say in the matter.

Thanks again, Kermie and Christ Alone! I truly do appreciate your help!!

Flip Special
01-15-02, 09:52 PM
AND Countrymouse!! Thanks to you as well! I didn't see your reply until I had sent my last post! :p

Corbin
01-16-02, 03:28 AM
Greets :D

This seems like a VERY interesting conversation, so I think I'll join it.

Those who are not predestined spend eternity in hell. Is it God's fault? Absolutely not. To think that He would save just one hell bound sinner is an amazing thing... Those people who's hearts are hardened by God deserve to have their heart hardened, and so do we, but God in His mercy chose to redeem some wretched people and call us His own.

Why would god choose not to redeem everyone and call them his own? What would be the justification of only saving a portion of his people? Surely it is in God's power to save all of his children, why not? If "all man is sinful", then why are some born with a predetermined journey to hell, while others are bound to heaven? Sure, you can say it's "God's choice", but beyond that, what purpose would it serve to have a very large percentage of his children all goto hell?

You state that "EVERYONE deserves to be sent to hell", well what factors seperate the ones who perish and the ones who live an eternal life..?

Brandan
01-16-02, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by Corbin
Why would god choose not to redeem everyone and call them his own? Because it's His desire. If I knew more, I'd tell you why.


What would be the justification of only saving a portion of his people? Surely it is in God's power to save all of his children, why not? If "all man is sinful", then why are some born with a predetermined journey to hell, while others are bound to heaven? Sure, you can say it's "God's choice", but beyond that, what purpose would it serve to have a very large percentage of his children all goto hell? When you say "his people", I assume you mean all mankind. It certainly is in God's power to save everyone who ever lived. Why doesn't He? Well the scriptures give us some insight into this.

In Romans 9:17, God spoke of Pharaoh whom He destroyed, "For this very purpose I raised you [Pharaoh] up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth."

Do you notice that God "raised" Pharaoh up to demonstrate His wrath?

Rom 9:22, What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

Here, we see that God has prepared people for destruction.

But why does he do this? Vs. 23 tells us why: "And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,"


You state that "EVERYONE deserves to be sent to hell", well what factors seperate the ones who perish and the ones who live an eternal life..?

What separates the ones who perish from the ones who have eternal life? That's simple: The precious blood of Jesus Christ. When Jesus came into this world, He specifically died for His elect and saved them right there on the cross.

Now Corbin, how does this apply to you? Well, I'll tell you. Jesus died for sinners. Are you one of His chosen? I don't know. But if you desire to be saved, today (right now) I suggest you cry out to the God who can save you. He can change your will, wash away your sins, and cause you to desire Him through His Holy Spirit.

Brandan

Flip Special
01-16-02, 08:33 AM
Thanks for such a stimulating discussion, everybody! I love learning more about God and His ways, and I'm very thankful I found this message board to learn from you all.

Kermie, I forgot to tell you that yesterday I enjoyed a trip back to childhood as I found your "It's Not Easy Being Green" song! And that picture of Kermit sitting on that log really made me melencholy (sp?) for my childhood. Although, I'm only 24, so I'm basically still a kid!:D

Kermie, you back up your opinion on Calvinism very well, and I admit that I'm finding myself pulled more into your way of thinking. Last night I spent some time in study, and stumbled across 2 particular verses that made me fall back into questioning. I'm sure that you've also come across them, and I'm hoping that you could share your thoughts on them?

Here they are:
- 1 Timothy 2:4: "Who [God] wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

- Ezekiel 18:32: "`For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,' declares the Lord God. `Therefore, repent and live.'"

Thanks for your help!
Flip

Brandan
01-16-02, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by Flip Special
Thanks for such a stimulating discussion, everybody! I love learning more about God and His ways, and I'm very thankful I found this message board to learn from you all. And we're very thankful to have you here. You have brightened my day!


Kermie, I forgot to tell you that yesterday I enjoyed a trip back to childhood as I found your "It's Not Easy Being Green" song! And that picture of Kermit sitting on that log really made me melencholy (sp?) for my childhood. Although, I'm only 24, so I'm basically still a kid!:D I'm glad you enjoyed it. I am a big fan of the muppets, and have a picture of Cookie Monster at my desk... I'm reminded of this passage... Matthew 18:3, .... "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."


Last night I spent some time in study, and stumbled across 2 particular verses that made me fall back into questioning. I'm sure that you've also come across them, and I'm hoping that you could share your thoughts on them?

Here they are:
- 1 Timothy 2:4: "Who [God] wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

- Ezekiel 18:32: "`For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,' declares the Lord God. `Therefore, repent and live.'"

Concerning 1 Tim. 2:4, there are two interpretations that make sense to me.

1. The people of the first interpretation would first ask, "who are "all men" that Paul is referring to? You could interpret this to mean either "all men" who ever lived, or "all men" meaning, "all of his elect". It all depends on the context. If I'm not mistaken, the majority of Calvinists would agree with this interpretation... that "all men" denote all races, types, and classes of men (or even all of the elect). Many Calvinists believe that the terms "all men", and "world" were used by the NT writers to emphasize salvation in its international aspect.

2. This one is a bit more complicated to explain, but is a bit more interesting.

It was sinful / contrary to the Law of God to crucify Jesus (John 19:11), but it was also exactly what God had willed and even predestined to occur (Isaiah 53:4, 10; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28). This is seemingly contradicting. This brings up the question... are there two wills of God?

Many Calvinists interpret 1 Tim. 2:4, 2 Pet. 3:9, etc.. to refer to God's general will to save people, not His effectual will to save them. In other words, In God's benevolence, God wishes that all men repent and turn to faith in Christ. However, in His decretive will, He grants the necessary faith and repentance to only the elect (John 6:37-45, Acts 11:18; 13:48; Phil. 1:29). It is true that God does not delight in the death of the wicked and desires that they turn from their sins. Yet, it is also only those who were chosen before the foundation of the world who will believe.

John Piper wrote the following on the two wills of God...

"God’s emotional life is infinitely complex beyond our ability to fully comprehend. For example, who can comprehend that the Lord hears in one moment of time the prayers of ten million Christians around the world, and sympathizes with each one personally and individually like a caring Father (as Hebrews 4:15 says He will), even though among those ten million prayers some are brokenhearted and some are bursting with joy? How can God weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice when they are both coming to Him at the same time – in fact are always coming to Him with no break at all? Or who can comprehend that God is angry at the sin of the world every day (Ps.7:11), and yet every day, every moment, He is rejoicing with tremendous joy because somewhere in the world a sinner is repenting (Lk.15:7,10,23)? Who can comprehend that God continually burns with hot anger at the rebellion of the wicked, grieves over the unholy speech of His people (Eph.4:29-30), yet takes pleasure in them daily (Ps.149:4), and ceaselessly makes merry over penitent prodigals who come home? Who of us could say what complex of emotions is not possible for God? All we have to go on here is what He has chosen to tell us in the Bible (John Piper, "Are There Two Wills in God?" The Grace of God, The Bondage of the Will [Vol.1] pp.126-127)." http://www.5solas.org/media.php?id=34


Thanks for your help! Yep, and thank you for asking!

Brandan

Flip Special
01-16-02, 10:20 AM
Kermie, thanks for those explanations! They do make sense, but I still need some time in prayer and meditation before I'm 100% sold!:)

That's a wonderful thought and reminder from Piper of God's might and power! Wow, God is SO much greater and beyond us intellectually! Powerful statement from Piper! I live in the Twin Cities of Minnesota as Rev. Piper does, and I've visited his church a few times. His messages are always very awesome! The only thing I don't like about his church is that it's found downtown Minneapolis!:p

Christ_†_Alone
01-16-02, 10:21 AM
Why would god choose not to redeem everyone and call them his own?

I'll just share some of what the Bible says on these questions:

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Many times, God does things that just dont make sense to us. Many have said "if I were God, I'd make sure everyone was saved". Yet... this verse in Isaiah reminds us that God's ways, and God's thoughts, are not like ours.



If "all man is sinful", then why are some born with a predetermined journey to hell, while others are bound to heaven? Sure, you can say it's "God's choice", but beyond that, what purpose would it serve to have a very large percentage of his children all goto hell?

First, to make an important correction, all of God's creation (people) are not necessarily God's children. We find a verse that directly addresses that here:

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel

Basically what's been said there is, just because they are OF Israel, does not mean they are all God's chosen people. Apply that same reasoning to God's creation (people), and it's clear to see, that just because we are all His created beings, does not mean we are all His children.

For some insight into His purpose that you ask about, for not choosing to save all, we go a little further into this chapter of Romans. Pay especially close attention to verses 17, 22 and 23.

Romans 9:
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



You state that "EVERYONE deserves to be sent to hell", well what factors seperate the ones who perish and the ones who live an eternal life..?

The most direct answer to that is here:

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Notice that verse says the unbelievers are condemned already? The verse right before this one, v.17 tells us Jesus did NOT come into the world to condemn it. Why? Because the world (in this context that means "people" in the most general sense) is already condemned... Jesus didn't need to condemn anyone - that was already done.

What He did come to do was, redeem His people from that condemnation. Not all people, not all God's created beings, but His people (Matthew 1:21).

The 1 thing that seperates the condemned, from the redeemed, is simply, God's grace.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We cannot and did not do anything to receive this grace of His. Verse 10 tells us we are HIS workmanship, ordained by Him.

The Greek word for grace used in verse 8 is "charis" and in this context literally means someone doing you a favor, something you didn't ask for, but would benefit you in a good way.

So what seperates the condemned, from the redeemed? God's grace, on His chosen people. Strong's notes define this kind of grace this way:

Merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues.

I hope that helped answer your questions.

Brandan
01-16-02, 06:23 PM
Here is a good chart that describes the differences between sheep and goats.

http://www.5solas.org/media.php?id=165

Corbin
01-16-02, 07:47 PM
Originially written by Kermie

Now Corbin, how does this apply to you? Well, I'll tell you. Jesus died for sinners. Are you one of His chosen? I don't know. But if you desire to be saved, today (right now) I suggest you cry out to the God who can save you. He can change your will, wash away your sins, and cause you to desire Him through His Holy Spirit.

This contradicts your previous statement thats tells of everyone having predetermined destinies. For sake of argument, let us assume that I am "not saved", and regardless of what I do, I will never become saved and will be banished to hell after my lowly existince here on earth. Why would I even bother to cry out to God for redemption? If I DID cry out, well then the whole thing was predetermined from the start, wasn't it? This whole area of discussion seems to lead into a somehwat circular agrument.


Also, I find some of John Piper's sermons and teachings quite interesting, however I very strongly disagree with his veiws on homosexuality,

Beliefs about Homosexual behavior and Ministering to Homosexual Persons (http://www.desiringgod.org/Online_Library/OnlineArticles/Subjects/Homosexuality/Beliefs.htm)

He says, "Whatever biological or familial roots of homosexuality may be discovered, we do not believe that these would sanction or excuse homosexual behavior"

He also reconizes ALL homosexual behavior as great sin, even though homosexual orientation is usually due to either biochemical reasons, and/or enviromental causes such as neglect or sexual abuse...

Like I said before though, he makes some really interesting points about "god's will".

:p ive gota go get lunch, so ill deal with urs later, Christ_t_Alone:p

Andrew
01-16-02, 08:11 PM
Dear Corbin,

Most Christians like me believe that Jesus Christ died for all mankind. ie his grace and salvation is freely extended to all INCLUDING YOU!

It is usu those who identify themselves as 'Calvinists' that believe that Jesus shed his blood only for some (which includes them, but perhaps not you).

:)

Flip Special
01-17-02, 08:01 AM
Hey Cowboy! I do believe that some people are born with homosexual tendencies because they are born into a sinful world. Folks are born with homosexual tendencies as a man is born with deformed limbs or a woman born mentally disabled. It is all because we are born into sin.

However, Sin is sin, and God calls homosexuality sin (the act, not the tendency). To struggle with lust for one of the same sex is not sin, but the act of lust or the actual act of sexual contact is in fact sin, but therefore so is lust or sex with one of the opposite sex.

Finally, if one struggles with homosexual feelings, God can and will and wants to change him or her. Call out to God for help, and He'll help shape your desires into a healthy desire for the opposite sex. That was his intention from the beginning.

I think what God despises above all else in the area of homosexuality is that of pride and contentment in the minds of homosexuals. In St.Paul, MN, where I live, a Lutheran church recently ordained an openly lesbian woman, who is living in a homosexual relationship with a woman. How sad has the state of the church become! :(

Flip Special
01-17-02, 08:21 AM
Well, Kermie and Christ-Alone, after spending a night with an Arminianist (I never know how to spell that word!), I have basically come to a conclusion, Finally, in my mind that gives me peace regarding the issue. I am now much more leanining on the side of the Arminian.

The thing that drove me nuts about your view of Calvinism is that of God pre-destining somebody to Hell. It just doesn't jive with God's love, mercy and justice. God created every one of us, and He would surely never create somebody in His image only to throw him or her into Hell.

That is why I believe that there is much more to this story than you or I know, or anybody for that matter. There is more to God than we can comprehend, so neither the Calvinist nor the Arminianist can fully know the doctrine of pre-destination.

At the foundations of the world, God pre-destined every one of His created human beings to be saved - this before sin came about. He has "chosen" every one of us because He did in fact make us. He chose us all before time to be made holy in God's eyes through the blood of Jesus. God's grace is made available to all people, but they must make that choice whether or not to accept the call (Rev.3:20).

To me it seems that the word "predestined" is mis-interpreted quite easily. In God's foreknowledge and perspective of time, He knew before the world was created exactly how everything would fit together. He chose (predestined) each of us created beings to be saved and to eternally with Him, but only a few choose to accept (Matt. 22:14). This is where free-will comes to play.

So again, thanks for all your help, Kermie and Christ-Alone! You have helped give peace to my mind, even though you have not convinced me to the view of Calvinism. I still respect you both, however, because I believe you are true people of God, and that's the important thing! God bless!
~Flip~

Flip Special
01-17-02, 08:26 AM
Wow, it's like I can see clearly for the first time in months! It all seems to make sense to me now, thank the Lord!

What do Calvinists say about praying for the lost and for witnessing to the lost? Are they both done in vain if they are destined before the prayer or witnessing takes place? What about the parable of the sower and the seed? What about 2 Cor. 4:4 speaking of the god of this age blinding the eyes of the unbelievers?

Brandan
01-17-02, 09:25 AM
Hi Flip...

Here is a good article on Evangelism and Calvinism....
http://www.5solas.org/media.php?id=110

I understand why you might lean toward Arminianism. I was once an Arminian, and many Calvinists I've met came kicking and screaming to Calvinism. But I agree with Calvinism simply because Scripture warrants it. Andrew made a point earlier that most Christians are Arminians... Yes, that is true, but that does not make it right does it? Scripture alone is the authority here, and you must seek to understand what God is saying (even if it bothers you), or you will never agree with Calvinism.

Does God create people knowing full well that people will spend eternity in hell? Yes. Both Arminians and Calvinists would agree on this point. The difference between Arminians and Calvinists on this point though is that God has predestined certain people for salvation, and passed over others.

I think you are seeing a cup only half empty rather than half full. To think that God would predestine just ONE hell bound sinner is absolutely astounding. Rejoice in the fact that many will be saved. God didn't have to save anyone. He didn't have to save me. He didn't have to save you. It is a serious error to call him "unloving" simply because He chose not to predestine everyone.

Also, Jep (a regular poster) at one time asked about evangelism and Calvinism, and this was my response...



Originally posted by Jep
Do you think that we are predestined? If so, why waste money on missionaries? Why witness? Why have street ministries for the lost? Why do we preach at all? And I might ask you why did Paul? Remember the Bible story where Paul noticed the statue to an unknown god? He jumped on that with both feet: You realize there is an unknown God, now I’d like to introduce you to Him. But why? If some in that audience were predestined to receive salvation and some were not, then it mattered little what Paul would do, as those who were predestined would come to Christ regardless of any preaching, and those who were not, would not under any circumstances. Are you with me? :)

I can tell you why Jep, and that answer is found in the example Paul gave us in Scripture...

Paul was particularly excited about the fact that, even before the world was created, God had already chosen those who would later receive this gift of salvation.

Ephesians 1:4-5, (NASB) just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Paul had learned that if God had predestined or "elected" some people to be saved, then seeing as God is sovereignly controlling the entire universe, everyone who's predestined to be saved actually will be.

Romans 8:29-30, (NASB) For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Everyone who gets predestined, gets called, and everyone who gets called, gets justified and everyone who gets justified, gets glorified in heaven. So Paul tells the Thessalonians, for example, "God chose you to be saved" (2 Thess. 2:13).

When he went out preaching the gospel, Paul was absolutely certain that everyone God had chosen to be saved was going to be saved. In this way, he was guaranteed success and was therefore very highly motivated.

In this life, of course, Paul didn't know who was going to be saved (the 'elect') and who wasn't; and neither will we. Our next door neighbor doesn't wear a T-shirt which says: "You're never gonna believe this, but I'm actually elect." On the contrary, it may seem more likely that our neighbor will fly to the moon than become a christian.

Saul, the murderous persecutor of christians, didn't look too promising in terms of being elect in Acts 7 when he stood there giving approval to the stoning of Stephen did he? As he guarded the cloaks of the men who murdered Stephen, I doubt we would have considered him to be "a man of peace." Yet, before the creation of the world, (Eph. 1:4) Saul, the murderer, was predestined by God to be saved. So on the Damascus Road he was called and that call was effectual in saving him.

God is not going to show us who's predestined to be saved because He wants us to offer the gospel freely to everyone. This is what Jesus was doing when He said things like "come to me all you who are weary" (Matt 11:28). Jesus commands us to "go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation" (Mark 16:15).

Paul followed Jesus' example by offering the gospel indiscriminately to all. And because Paul knew that God had predestined some to be saved, he was constantly throwing out the gospel net, confident of a good catch of fish.

Let's look at how the doctrine of election motivated Paul to keep going in one specific situation, where he might otherwise have been tempted to give up.

In Acts 18 Paul is in Corinth and in verse 6 the Jews oppose him and become abusive. Paul storms off saying, "Your blood be on your own heads, I am clear of my responsibility."

Then Jesus speaks to Paul in a vision, "Do not be afraid any longer but go on speaking and do not be silent; for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city" (Acts 18:9,10).

Who were these "many people" in the city of Corinth? Well, they must have been the people who would later be saved. They must have been the elect people who became christians. The very next verse tells us that on the strength of this vision, rather than quitting, Paul stayed another year and a half in Corinth.

That is why we must keep going!!! We have every reason to think that God has many people in this world. Who are we to say that He doesn't have people that are yet to be saved? Who are we not to preach the gospel to all creation? We can have 100% of Paul's confidence and motivation because we have the same gospel.

Sadly, it is true that some christians have used the doctrine of election as an excuse for evangelistic laziness. They so emphasise the sovereignty of God that they practically ignore the responsibility of man. Somehow, these believers forget that preaching the gospel is necessary for anyone to to be saved, for faith comes by hearing (Rom. 10:13,14). But the real tragedy is that their rather quirky and joyless example has proved a poor advertisment for Calvinistic soteriology. :(

Flip, don't rush to a conclusion. Take your time, examine ALL aspects of both sides of the issue, and make your judgement based on Scripture alone, and not your feelings.

- Brandan

Christ_†_Alone
01-17-02, 04:01 PM
Flip, you might like to take the time to read THIS (http://communities.msn.com/BIBLEFELLOWSHIP/tulip.msnw?action=get_message&mview=1&ID_Message=1936)

Corbin
01-17-02, 08:35 PM
Hey Cowboy! I do believe that some people are born with homosexual tendencies because they are born into a sinful world. Folks are born with homosexual tendencies as a man is born with deformed limbs or a woman born mentally disabled. It is all because we are born into sin.

I doubt you would ever tell someone who was born with no limbs that he or she is a sinner.


However, Sin is sin, and God calls homosexuality sin (the act, not the tendency). To struggle with lust for one of the same sex is not sin, but the act of lust or the actual act of sexual contact is in fact sin, but therefore so is lust or sex with one of the opposite sex.

So what? Some old book calls homosexuality a sin. Big deal. You are letting your religion cloud you normal reasoning and judgement. Why the heck would God care about someone's sexual orientation anyways? And please don't tell me it is because It is his will! What jusification would he have in calling all homosexuals sinners? They didn't ask to be that way.



Finally, if one struggles with homosexual feelings, God can and will and wants to change him or her. Call out to God for help, and He'll help shape your desires into a healthy desire for the opposite sex. That was his intention from the beginning.

What makes you think he'll help gays convert? He hasn't been doing such a good job of it so far. The conversion rate is very small, and what makes you think the people who acually converted did it because of God's help? It seems very unlikely to me.



I think what God despises above all else in the area of homosexuality is that of pride and contentment in the minds of homosexuals. In St.Paul, MN, where I live, a Lutheran church recently ordained an openly lesbian woman, who is living in a homosexual relationship with a woman. How sad has the state of the church become!

Hah! I'm glad she was ordained! This is a lady who is playin the hand she was dealt, makin the best outta the situation! I respect and admire people like this. The fact that she is acually proud to be openly lesbain is a great feat, espiecially with all the discrimination against homosexuals in our society. She at least has a high self of steam, and can easily see she is doing nothing wrong, unlike many christians who refer to themselves as "lowly dirty sinners not worthy of God's awsome power."

This one statement says it all! How sad has the state of the church become! It truly shows how your normal reasoning and logic have been cloudin by the mists of a religion.

Flip Special
01-17-02, 08:59 PM
Corbin, I didn't know that you were an unbeliever! Wow, you've shocked me! I've only read a couple of your posts and so I guess I assumed that everyone who posts on here is a Christian! Why do you spend so much time on here? Do you enjoy trying to play Devil's Advocate? Just curious. I'm glad you're here just the same! You must be curious about the joy that Christianity brings!

Since you aren't a believer, I won't speak to you as I would a fellow brother in Christ, but I will say that Christianity is more than just "religion" as you call it. Sure, that is all it is so many who call themselves "Christians," but to those who are born again, and to those who base their lives in Christ, it is more than 'religion,' but rather a personal friendship and relationship with Jesus Christ, God our creator.

I pray that someday you'll come to know such peace and joy as most of us know on this message board. John 10:10 says that Jesus came to give Christians life, and to give it to the full. I hope you can one day experience this life to the full! Have a good evening, Corby!

--Flip

Andrew
01-17-02, 09:43 PM
-----------------
But I agree with Calvinism simply because Scripture warrants it.
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Aren't the Arminians/non-pure-Calvinists saying the same thing?

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Andrew made a point earlier that most Christians are Arminians... Yes, that is true, but that does not make it right does it?
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No I didnt say that! I said most Christians believe that Jesus died for everyone. Most Christians dont even care much about the Calvinist or Arminian label. They just identify themsleves as 'Christians' - followers of Christ, not Calvin or Armi or some other guy. And being in the minority doesn't make it true either, no more than being in a small cult makes it true.

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Scripture alone is the authority here, and you must seek to understand what God is saying (even if it bothers you), or you will never agree with Calvinism.
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It is not fair to think that those who do not agree 100% with Calvinism have not read their Bibles.

Corbin
01-17-02, 11:28 PM
Why do you spend so much time on here? Do you enjoy trying to play Devil's Advocate? Just curious.

I enjoy conversing with a diverse group of people. Discussing religion and philosphies has greatly opened my eyes and given me tremendous insight.

Sure, that is all it is so many who call themselves "Christians," but to those who are born again, and to those who base their lives in Christ, it is more than 'religion,' but rather a personal friendship and relationship with Jesus Christ, God our creator.

How exactly are you connected and associated with God? I have heard many times, from many christians about a somewhat, spiritual experience that can only be achived by having a full faith in god. They only ask that you forget everything you know about reasoning and judgement, and make the "Leap of Faith". It's all the same, you cannot ever achieve a full understanding in God without becoming completley subective in your thinking, and accepting the bible as the absolute truth. This is because there is no verifyable proof to back up their beliefs.

They must realise that this complete "relationship with God" is entirely in their heads. They're completley closed to reason and thinking, at which point they begin believing lies and falsehoods with clear conscience.

I for one, will not be making this "Leap of Faith" anytime soon. I shall investigate, think about it, draw my conclusions in concert with rationality, be prepared to alter my viewpoint if circumstances demand it.

Life is pretty simple in the end, if you're smart about it and accept fairy tales for just what they are. Fairy tales.

Flip Special
01-17-02, 11:38 PM
Oof-da, it's been draining for me the last couple days! Never before have I dove this deep into this controversy! I do not like to just pick a side and sit on it, but rather to be sure I know for sure, backed up by scripture and my soul, before I make a stand. And still, Kermie and Christ-Alone, as I wrote yesterday, my heart is at rest that I call myself an Arminianist.

I truly appreciate all of your help and article aids, but to me the verses that Calvinists use to try to get their point across are not inconclusive. There do seem to be solid scripture verses that stand by the stand of Arminianism, however. The entire Bible seems to focus on sin, Jesus, and the necessity for sinful man to turn from his old, sinful self and accept Jesus Christ. Jesus himself speaks continually on how we must believe who he is and what he's done! My bible is turned to John 8:24 at the moment, where Jesus says that unless we believe that he is who he says he is, we will die in our sins! Why would Jesus tell this to people who he knew were not predestined to be saved? If Calvinism is true, it only seems logical that Jesus didn't know who God's chosen were. However, I can't buy that because Jesus was God and had a part in the world's creation.

Predestination did in fact occur, I believe, but only in the idea of God's foreknowledge. I believe that He fore-knew us before He created us, and therefore knew whether or not we would believe in Jesus. His choice was based on this, and not on something that we had no say in. Whenever a sinner hears the gospel story, the Holy Spirit gives the sinner an opportunity to come to Christ. This is free-will. So to be sure, a sinner can not come to Christ without the Holy Spirit and God's grace, but at the same time there is a choice.

Kermie and Christ-Alone, thank you again for all your help, but I think I've found my answer. My mind and soul are at peace, and the picture seems much less fuzzy to me now.

Today while flipping channels I came across a local access cable show, "Athiest Alliance." These people were gloating over how smart they thought they were that they had supposedly disproven the existance of God. I'm thankful that we are not debating the issue of God, or even of Jesus being the Savior. When I look at how lost those poor atheists are, and the path of destruction that they're headed down, it makes our little discussion seem quite miniscule.

God bless you all....
Flip Special




:p

Flip Special
01-17-02, 11:51 PM
Corby my man! I'm tired and wanna go to sleep, but I read your post and have to say some things to ya!

Born-again experiences simply cannot be made up! Many Christians say that the only proof they have of a living and active Jesus Christ is faith, but I have more -- personal proof. And I know that many more folks who have been born-again can attest to my story. Man, I was into everything you could imagine before the Lord found me. You name it, I was into it. It's a wonder I'm not locked away at the moment to tell the truth! Here's my proof that this stuff is not merely "head-games." The moment I knelt and said a SERIOUS prayer of confession of sin and invited Jesus into my heart, I was a changed man. I've never been the same. Suddenly the once boring, dull words of the Bible became active and living to me (as the verse in Hebrews states on the top of the main board). Also, I couldnt' get enough sermons (I used to despise them), and couldn't read enough of the Bible and books by Christian authors.

Corby, in one of Petra's songs, they say that many non-Christian people say "Let me see some proof, and then I'll believe and give my heart to Jesus," when the truth is that it isn't until they believe that they will actually see some proof. Isn't that the truth!!

Corby, join the family of Jesus. Don't wait, man! That's what I did for 21 years of my life. What a waste of life, man! I know, I was there! I'm telling you straight up, get on your knees and say an honest and serious prayer to Jesus, ask forgiveness of your sins, and ask Jesus to live into your heart and be your Lord. I guarantee you'll be a changed man.

God says "Taste and see that the Lord is good." It's like a challenge that God is giving out!

See ya, Corby! Have a great eve! Now I hope you don't write back tonite so I can get some sleep, alright!

:D

Corbin
01-18-02, 04:54 AM
Here's my proof that this stuff is not merely "head-games." The moment I knelt and said a SERIOUS prayer of confession of sin and invited Jesus into my heart, I was a changed man. I've never been the same. Suddenly the once boring, dull words of the Bible became active and living to me (as the verse in Hebrews states on the top of the main board).

Is it not possible that maybe your subconscious persuit to change your life around ended up using religion as a vehicle? So as you were praying to God, your creative subconscious decided that it would use this oppurtunity to coax your subconscious into change? I believe that it a reasonable assumption, and events similar to that occur on a much smaller level in your mind all the time without you knowing it.

The interesting thing about your creative subcounscious is that it will come up with solutions to problems that effect your conscious without you even knowing it. You wanted change. It gave you change. It decided to use religion as a vehicle to make this transition. Slowly it reformed your self image until you are the person you are today. Your self image affects the way you think logicially, your ability to reason based on your awareness, and the ability to make judgements.

Furthermore, "God" wouldn't give us senses and reason to investigate reality if everything He explained was literal. Then He'd be a jerk :D

Brandan
01-18-02, 06:34 AM
I suppose there are some persons whose minds naturally incline towards the doctrine of free-will. I can only say that mine inclines as naturally towards the doctrines of sovereign grace. Sometimes, when I see some of the worst characters in the street, I feel as if my heart must burst forth in tears of gratitude that God has never let me act as they have done! I have thought, if God had left me alone, and had not touched me by His grace, what a great sinner I should have been! I should have run to the utmost lengths of sin, dived into the very depths of evil, nor should I have stopped at any vice or folly, if God had not restrained me. I feel that I should have been a very king of sinners, if God had let me alone. I cannot understand the reason why I am saved, except upon the ground that God would have it so. I cannot, if I look ever so earnestly, discover any kind of reason in myself why I should be a partaker of Divine grace. If I am not at this moment without Christ, it is only because Christ Jesus would have His will with me, and that will was that I should be with Him where He is, and should share His glory. I can put the crown nowhere but upon the head of Him whose mighty grace has saved me from going down into the pit. Looking back on my past life, I can see that the dawning of it all was of God; of God effectively. I took no torch with which to light the sun, but the sun enlightened me. I did not commence my spiritual life-no, I rather kicked, and struggled against the things of the Spirit: when He drew me, for a time I did not run after Him: there was a natural hatred in my soul of everything holy and good. Wooings were lost upon me-warnings were cast to the wind- thunders were despised; and as for the whispers of His love, they were rejected as being less than nothing and vanity. But, sure I am, I can say now, speaking on behalf of myself, "He only is my salvation." It was He who turned my heart, and brought me down on my knees before Him. I can in very deed, say with Doddridge and Toplady-

"Grace taught my soul to pray,

And made my eyes o'erflow."

and coming to this moment, I can add-

"Tis grace has kept me to this day,

And will not let me go."

Well can I remember the manner in which I learned the doctrines of grace in a single instant. Born, as all of us are by nature, an Arminian, I still believed the old things I had heard continually from the pulpit, and did not see the grace of God. When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul-when they were, as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron, and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown on a sudden from a babe into a man-that I had made progress in Scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God. One week-night, when I was sitting in the house of God, I was not thinking much about the preacher's sermon, for I did not believe it. The thought struck me, How did you come to be a Christian? I sought the Lord. But how did you come to seek the Lord? The truth flashed across my mind in a moment- I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, How came I to pray? I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures. How came I to read the Scriptures? I did read them, but what led me to do so? Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, "I ascribe my change wholly to God." - Charles Spurgeon


Andrew: If you say Christ died for all men, in my book you're probably an Armininian. Although I know some 4 pt. Calvinists.

Flip: I don't know what to say man. I don't believe you truly have investigated Calvinism thoroughly to make a decision. It took weeks of research for me. But if you say you have, so be it. I'm through here. However, let me give you a warning, since now you have been presented with the truth. Arminianism is heresy. It teaches that man has a role in salvation. It also teaches that the only reason you are saved is because YOU chose God, not the other way around.... It teaches that God's point of contact with non-Christians is love (God loves you). Therefore, God's authority is secondary. It teaches that God is unable to empower the sinner's will. It teaches that God is a friend who will help you rather than a King who will save you. Arminianism teaches that Christ exists for our benefit rather than existing to receive honor and glory, that his death was more important than his life, and that an attitude of submission to Christ's lordship is optional for salvation. In effect, Arminianism takes the keys of salvation away from God and places them in the hands of the sinner. That is not the Gospel, and I warn you in Love, before you teach these philosophies to someone, be sure you are not perverting the Word of God.

Thanks for your time Flip. I pray God brings you to an understanding of His sovereignty.

Brandan

Christ_†_Alone
01-18-02, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by kermie
I suppose there are some persons whose minds naturally incline towards the doctrine of free-will....

Brandan

Thank you Charles. God's will be done.

Flip Special
01-18-02, 07:58 AM
Kermie, the doctrine of Calvinism simply makes no sense to me. Perhaps you're right in that I havnen't investigated enough. However, I have read every post you've proposed to me, and on my own time I've searched the internet in great depth to hear the arguments from both sides. Also, in my own Bible study, to me the Bible leans significantly towards the thought of Arminianism. Kermie, God did not create robots, he created us with a free will so that our love for Him will be genuine. When we choose to deny his son, Jesus, God honors our choice.

The sinner does in fact make only one decision in salvation, and that is to accept the gift of eternal life. When somebody hands you a gift, Brandan, you must receive it in order to get it.

I'll keep an open mind and draw it up every time I read a Bible verse that deals with the issue, but for the moment I call myself, "Flip the Arminianist."

God bless, Brandan!

~Flip~

Flip Special
01-18-02, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by kermie
and I warn you in Love, before you teach these philosophies to someone, be sure you are not perverting the Word of God.

Brandan, because I do not know FOR SURE and have proof that Arminianism is truth (as you do not know FOR SURE that Calvinism is true), whenever I share the nature of God with somebody, I will simply tell them that I BELIEVE in Armininism. When I one day become a pastor and a matter that is controversial comes to surface, I won't pretend that I know the truth (such as in baptism and eternal security) but will admit that the Bible is not crystal clear on the matter. I will present the facts from each side, and then let my hearers decide for themselves.

Be careful Brandan not to assume that Calvinism is the truth. You have to admit that the Bible seems to sway both ways, and that you don't know FOR CERTAIN that Calvinism is correct. One of the errors among clergymen today is that they assume that they know a certain truth that is in fact very uncertain. They have to realize that it's okay to say "I don't know."

God Bless!
~Flip~

Brandan
01-18-02, 08:46 AM
Actually Flip, I believe Calvinism is the truth, and I am so sure of it that I am willing to die for my convictions.

jhamrick
01-18-02, 10:21 AM
Hi Flip,
I understand where you are coming from. Please further examine the doctrine of Arminianism before fully selling out to it. I think a closer look shows that some of the ideas are way off. I'm not saying you have to be a full-out Calvinist, just be carefull what you align yourself with.

Odyssey
01-18-02, 12:25 PM
Flip,

You might also want to consider this in your equation:

Since god 'foreknows' what people will 'choose,' why does he create the ones who will choose to reject Christ? How is that 'loving'? What about those people before the gospel? How could they have been saved? The people that most Arminians don't address are the Gentiles before Christ. Since there is no salvation through any other name, those people, according to Paul, died without hope, and without a covenant relationship with god. They all are eternally separated from him. Where is the 'all people are predestined to be saved' in that?

Also, did you 'choose' to be a sinner? Or was that 'choice' made for you?

Did you 'choose' your DNA? Did you choose your skin colour? Or you parents? Your family history?

I think that the best way to determine which view is correct, would be prayer and discussion with people of both views.

Grace to you,

jak

Flip Special
01-19-02, 10:11 AM
Odysey,
I don't know how to split up your message with quotes, so I'll have to answer your q's without the benefit of quotes.
God foreknows the future just as we know the past. It's simply the playing out of time. Free will is still present, and the choice is up to us to accpt or deny Christ. In creating of a person, God is truly grieved at the choice of denying the Christ that the created person will make, but it's simply the playing out of time.
Did I choose to be a sinner? I was born into natural sin at birth, but I was guilty of actual sin the moment I chose to do wrong when I knew the difference between right and wrong (age of accountability). Had I died as an infant, I believe I would be covered under the blood of Jesus and the mercy and grace of God.
Those people who died before Jesus walked the earth were still covered by the blood of the lamb, the true sacrifice for sins! Those who followed the Law before Christ were those redeemed under Christ's sacrifice. How do I know that people were saved before Jesus shed his blood? At his ressurrection, holy people came out of their graves and walked around (Matt. 27:52).
How is it loving that God would create a person who He knew would forsake Him? Rather how is your view loving that speaks of a God who hand-picks certain people to eternal life, leaving no hope for others?
In Christ
Flip

Flip Special
01-19-02, 10:20 AM
Thanks for the warning, man!
I am tending to believe MOST of the teachings of Arminianism, but I do not accept the view that teaches that a saved person may lose his or her salvation. I do believe heartily in eternal security.
Also, I'm not bold enough to state that I am 100% certain that Arminianism is correct. The Word is not that clear. It bothers me when clergymen try to push their opinions on certain issues onto their congregation. Some issues are just not to be known for certain on this side of Heaven- and I accept that.
~FLIP~

Thomas
01-19-02, 11:41 PM
These Calvinist posts are kind of pissing me off. Sorry, but I have never felt so confused about a christian subject before.

Ok, you're glad you're a christian. You're glad you're not like them, the ones who were not chosen. They're going to suffer eternally, because God wanted it to be that way. And you're just glad that you're going to live happy for the rest of your eternal life. Lucky you, God has chosen you. As for the people who are eternally condemned to the worst kind of suffering ever, oh well, too bad God hasn't chosen them. But you are one of the chosen ones, right? So be happy! Forget about all the people in hell! Be happy because at least you were chosen! You'll be in Heaven praising God: "Oh, God is so wonderful! By his grace, He has saved me!" And in Hell, someone will be thinking: "What's wrong with this God? If He knew, no, wait, if he predestined me to suffer here eternally, why did He create me?" It seems so completely unfair, unloving, un-whatever else that's good, that I just can't believe it. Yeah, I know, no one can understand God's mind. Mine is just as stupid as every other human's. But, oh well, with my God given logic, I can not understand this.

Arminianism is heresy, huh? Well, I never knew I was an arminian. All I know is I'm a christian. I do know that a lot of people only claim to be christians, but in my heart I desire to follow Jesus Christ. Shouldn't it be what matters? If this is heresy than why does God acts the way He's been acting in my life?

Really, what is what really matters? Faith that Jesus has died for our sins, and the mission we have to spread the gospel, or all this "God has predestined you and not the other way around, if you don't believe it you are an heretic" crap? It doesn't even matter if He found me or if I found Him. What matters is that somehow I got to know Him and I'm glad it happened, and now I want to serve Him, eternally. Get over yourselves. I can't take this "holier than thou" attitude. Be concerned about what matters. If God wanted us to worry so much about this "who found who" thing He would have made it clearer. But He has chosen to make WHAT REALLY MATTERS clear.

Lastly, if a person is saved, it's because the person has chosen to do so. I can choose, you know, it's not like God's predestined all of my moves. Or has He? Has God predestined that I would post all this crap? Oh well. I guess I don't have a choice over anything then. I guess I shouldn't take responsability over my actions then. Yeah, Calvinism seems quite cool to me. Sorry for the way I put my opinions here. I guess it just reflects the way I feel.

Fledge
01-19-02, 11:57 PM
I have an idea!

Let's all just take a step back from this particular discussion for a day or two, catch our breaths, and relax a little.

I'm up for a debate as much or more as the next guy, but I think a brief hiatus does good. Gather your thoughts, get everything in order, and come back shortly.

:)

Or not. Whatever works best I suppose!
:)

Thomas
01-20-02, 12:08 AM
Sorry!

That post was kind of emotionally driven. Forgive me everyone.
I do mean all of that though.

Brandan
01-20-02, 11:44 AM
God's Sovereign Election Determines the Disposition of Nations

Deuteronomy 4:35-38, (NASB), "To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him."Out of the heavens He let you hear His voice to discipline you; and on earth He let you see His great fire, and you heard His words from the midst of the fire." Because He loved your fathers, therefore He chose their descendants after them. And He personally brought you from Egypt by His great power, driving out from before you nations greater and mightier than you, to bring you in and to give you their land for an inheritance, as it is today.

Deuteronomy 7:6-8, (NASB), "For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth." The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the Lord loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the Lord brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 10:14-15, (NASB), "Behold, to the Lord your God belong heaven and the highest heavens, the earth and all that is in it." Yet on your fathers did the Lord set His affection to love them, and He chose their descendants after them, even you above all peoples, as it is this day.

Deuteronomy 14:1-2, (NASB), "You are the sons of the Lord your God; you shall not cut yourselves nor shave your forehead for the sake of the dead." For you are a holy people to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Psalms 33:12, (NASB), Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, The people whom He has chosen for His own inheritance.

Isaiah 41:8-9, (NASB), "But you, Israel, My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, Descendant of Abraham My friend, You whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, And called from its remotest parts And said to you, 'You are My servant, I have chosen you and not rejected you.

Isaiah 65:9, (NASB), "I will bring forth offspring from Jacob, And an heir of My mountains from Judah; Even My chosen ones shall inherit it, And My servants will dwell there.

Jeremiah 31:35-36, (NASB), Thus says the Lord, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The Lord of hosts is His name: "If this fixed order departs From before Me," declares the Lord, "Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever."

Amos 3:1-2, (NASB), Hear this word which the Lord has spoken against you, sons of Israel, against the entire family which He brought up from the land of Egypt: "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities."

Thomas
01-20-02, 11:46 AM
I just want to say that I'm really sorry for posting that. All I want to do is what God wants me to do. Sorry for being mean like that just because I didn't agree with the calvinism way of seeing things. All I want to know is the truth, and I've asked God to show me the truth. I just hope you can all forgive me, and that you can get over that, and I'd be glad to discuss this, in peace.

God Bless You All =)

Thomas.

Brandan
01-20-02, 11:46 AM
All Human Authority is Determined by God's Sovereign Election

Deuteronomy 18:4-5, (NASB), "You shall give him the first fruits of your grain, your new wine, and your oil, and the first shearing of your sheep. "For the Lord your God has chosen him and his sons from all your tribes, to stand and serve in the name of the Lord forever.

Deuteronomy 21:5, (NASB), "Then the priests, the sons of Levi, shall come near, for the Lord your God has chosen them to serve Him and to bless in the name of the Lord; and every dispute and every assault shall be settled by them.

1 Samuel 16:1, 8-13, (NASB), Now the Lord said to Samuel, "How long will you grieve over Saul, since I have rejected him from being king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and go; I will send you to Jesse the Bethlehemite, for I have selected a king for Myself among his sons." . . . Then Jesse called Abinadab and made him pass before Samuel. And he said, "The Lord has not chosen this one either." Next Jesse made Shammah pass by. And he said, 'The Lord has not chosen this one either." Thus Jesse made seven of his sons pass before Samuel. But Samuel said to Jesse, "The Lord has not chosen these." And Samuel said to Jesse, "Are these all the children?" And he said, "There remains yet the youngest, and behold, he is tending the sheep." Then Samuel said to Jesse, "Send and bring him; for we will not sit down until he comes here." So he sent and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, with beautiful eyes and a handsome appearance. And the Lord said, "Arise, anoint him; for this is he." Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon David from that day forward. And Samuel arose and went to Ramah.

1 Chronicles 28:4, (NASB), "Yet, the Lord, the God of Israel, chose me from all the house of my father to be king over Israel forever. For He has chosen Judah to be a leader; and in the house of Judah, my father's house, and among the sons of my father He took pleasure in me to make me king over all Israel.

Psalms 78:67-71, (NASB), He also rejected the tent of Joseph, And did not choose the tribe of Ephraim, But chose the tribe of Judah, Mount Zion which He loved. And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has founded forever. He also chose David His servant And took him from the sheepfolds; From the care of the ewes with suckling lambs He brought him To shepherd Jacob His people, And Israel His inheritance.

Isaiah 40:23, (NASB), He it is who reduces rulers to nothing, Who makes the judges of the earth meaningless.

Jeremiah 1:4-5,10, (NASB), Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." . . . "See, I have appointed you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, To pluck up and to break down, To destroy and to overthrow, To build and to plant."

John 19:10-11, (NASB), So Pilate said to Him, "You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?" Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."

Romans 13:1, (NASB), Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

Brandan
01-20-02, 11:47 AM
Special Abilities and Wisdom are Determined by Sovereign Election

Exodus 31:2-5, (NASB), "See, I have called by name Bezalel, the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. "I have filled him with the Spirit of God in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all kinds of craftsmanship, to make artistic designs for work in gold, in silver, and in bronze, and in the cutting of stones for settings, and in the carving of wood, that he may work in all kinds of craftsmanship.

Deuteronomy 21:5, (NASB), "Then the priests, the sons of Levi, shall come near, for the Lord your God has chosen them to serve Him and to bless in the name of the Lord; and every dispute and every assault shall be settled by them.

Jeremiah 1:4-5,10, (NASB), Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." . . . "See, I have appointed you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, To pluck up and to break down, To destroy and to overthrow, To build and to plant."

Mark 3:14, (NASB), And He appointed twelve, so that they would be with Him and that He could send them out to preach,

John 15:16,19, (NASB), "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. . . . "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

Acts 9:11-16, (NASB), And the Lord said to him, "Get up and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying, and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him, so that he might regain his sight." But Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem; and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name." But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake."

1 Corinthians 4:7, (NASB), For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

1 Corinthians 12:28, (NASB), And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

Galatians 1:15-17, (NASB), But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus.

Colossians 1:25-27, (NASB), Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Brandan
01-20-02, 11:47 AM
Participation in Saving Grace is Determined by Sovereign Election

Genesis 18:17-19, (NASB), The Lord said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? "For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him."

Psalms 135:4, (NASB), For the Lord has chosen Jacob for Himself, Israel for His own possession.

Matthew 11:25-27, (NASB), At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. "Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

Matthew 22:14, (NASB), "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matthew 24:22,31 (NASB), "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. . . . "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Luke 4:25-30, (NASB), "But I say to you in truth, there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the sky was shut up for three years and six months, when a great famine came over all the land; and yet Elijah was sent to none of them, but only to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. "And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian." And all the people in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things; and they got up and drove Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff. But passing through their midst, He went His way.

John 6:37-39,44 (NASB), "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. . . . No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

Romans 8:32-34, (NASB), He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

Romans 10:20, (NASB), And Isaiah is very bold and says, "I was found by those who did not seek Me, I became manifest to those who did not ask for Me."

1 Corinthians 1:22-29, (NASB), For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God.

Ephesians 1:3-6, (NASB), Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Ephesians 1:11-12, (NASB), also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 2:8-10, (NASB), For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Colossians 3:11-12, (NASB), a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all. So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

1 Thessalonians 1:4-5, (NASB), knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you; for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

1 Thessalonians 5:9, (NASB), For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, (NASB), But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:10, (NASB), For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

James 1:17-18, (NASB), Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

James 2:5, (NASB), Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

1 Peter 1:1-2, (NASB), Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

1 Peter 2:2-10, (NASB), like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation, if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord. And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For this is contained in Scripture: "Behold, I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed." This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, "The stone which the builders rejected, This became the very corner stone, and, "A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Brandan
01-20-02, 11:48 AM
The Rejection of Nations and Individuals is Determined by Sovereign Election

1 Samuel 16:1,8-13, (NASB), Now the Lord said to Samuel, "How long will you grieve over Saul, since I have rejected him from being king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and go; I will send you to Jesse the Bethlehemite, for I have selected a king for Myself among his sons." . . . Then Jesse called Abinadab and made him pass before Samuel. And he said, "The Lord has not chosen this one either." Next Jesse made Shammah pass by. And he said, 'The Lord has not chosen this one either." Thus Jesse made seven of his sons pass before Samuel. But Samuel said to Jesse, "The Lord has not chosen these." And Samuel said to Jesse, "Are these all the children?" And he said, "There remains yet the youngest, and behold, he is tending the sheep." Then Samuel said to Jesse, "Send and bring him; for we will not sit down until he comes here." So he sent and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, with beautiful eyes and a handsome appearance. And the Lord said, "Arise, anoint him; for this is he." Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon David from that day forward. And Samuel arose and went to Ramah.

Psalms 78:67-71, (NASB), He also rejected the tent of Joseph, And did not choose the tribe of Ephraim, But chose the tribe of Judah, Mount Zion which He loved. And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has founded forever. He also chose David His servant And took him from the sheepfolds; From the care of the ewes with suckling lambs He brought him To shepherd Jacob His people, And Israel His inheritance.

Matthew 11:25-27, (NASB), At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. "Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

Luke 4:25-30, (NASB), "But I say to you in truth, there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the sky was shut up for three years and six months, when a great famine came over all the land; and yet Elijah was sent to none of them, but only to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. "And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian." And all the people in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things; and they got up and drove Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff. But passing through their midst, He went His way.

John 6:70-71, (NASB), Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

John 8:42-44, (NASB), Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

John 10:25-30, (NASB), Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. "I and the Father are one."

John 13:18, (NASB), "I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me.'

John 17:12, (NASB), "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

Romans 1:18-24, (NASB), For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.

Romans 11:5-10, (NASB), In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, Eyes to see not and ears to hear not, Down to this very day." And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, And a stumbling block and a retribution to them. "Let their eyes be darkened to see not, And bend their backs forever."

Romans 11:25-29,32, (NASB), For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery so that you will not be wise in your own estimation that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob." "This is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. . . . For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Corinthians 4:3-4, (NASB), And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

2 Peter 2:10-13, (NASB), and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties, whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord. But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,

Jude 1:4, (NASB), For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Brandan
01-20-02, 11:49 AM
God's Son is the Ultimate Example of Sovereign Election

Psalms 89:26-28, (NASB), "He will cry to Me, 'You are my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.' "I also shall make him My firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth. "My lovingkindness I will keep for him forever, And My covenant shall be confirmed to him.

Proverbs 8:22-23, (NASB), "The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. "From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.

Isaiah 42:1-4, (NASB), "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. "He will not cry out or raise His voice, Nor make His voice heard in the street. "A bruised reed He will not break And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully bring forth justice. "He will not be disheartened or crushed Until He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands will wait expectantly for His law."

Matthew 12:17-18, (NASB), This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased; I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

Luke 9:35, (NASB), Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"

John 6:37-39,44 (NASB), "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. . . . No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Acts 17:31, (NASB), because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

Romans 8:32-34, (NASB), He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

Romans 11:25-29,32 (NASB), For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery so that you will not be wise in your own estimation that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob." "This is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. . . . For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Hebrews 1:1-2, (NASB), God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

1 Peter 1:18-20, (NASB), knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

Brandan
01-20-02, 11:49 AM
Romans 9:6-29, a Summary of God's Electing Grace

Romans 9:6-29, (NASB), But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "through Isaac your descendants will be named." 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9 For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son." 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. 25 As He says also in Hosea, "I will call those who were not My people, 'My people,' And her who was not beloved, 'beloved.'" 26 "And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, 'you are not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God." 27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute His word on the earth, thoroughly and quickly." 29 And just as Isaiah foretold, "Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left to us a posterity, We would have become like Sodom, and would have resembled Gomorrah."

Debbiek
01-21-02, 10:16 AM
Hey there Flip Special, glad you came to your truth thru scripture!!!!!!!!! I am like Fledge explained himself, believing some arminisim & some calvinism. The Bible clearly states to me that all mankind is offered salvation, and Christ died for ALL of our sins, not just some folks' sins. I do believe in total depravation BEFORE the day of Pentecost, not after. I also believe that it is the Holy Spirit who urges us to accept the fact that Christ died for our sins. IN fact, I believe that is why COrbin is at this website. Corbin just doens't realize that the Holy Spirit is talking to him, as well as his own subconcious. Corbin, I hope you listen closely to distinguish between your own thoughts, satanic suggestion, & God's voice. I guarantee all 3 are occurring in your head. Also Corbin, some people do claim supernatural events occur when they become believers in Biblical Jesus. BUt EVERYONE does not have supernatural events occur. I have come to the conclusion that God hardens the heart of those who intentionally offend God, as in those who are already believers & intentionally twist scripture for their own motives. THus the downfall of those who once called themselves Christians. FOr example there is scripture which says something like,"we cast out demons ijn your name Lord", and Jesus replies,"I do not know you". ONly a CHristian can cast out demons. These people were once Christians and recieved a gift, then their motive changed so God hardened their heart. As for the homosexuality, the Bible clearly states this is an abomination & they will not enter heaven. Even though some nice people are homosexuals, they continue intentionally to sin & are not sorry for it. God does change them to heterosexuals. BUt they have to WANT IT. I know some homosexuals who are such because of being molested as a child, and another from an overbearing mother who wanted her son to be just like her. But, there are homosexual children who are oppressed/possessed by a homosexual demon. God doesn't make homosexuals, He delivers them.

Brandan
01-21-02, 12:33 PM
Adam's sin corrupted humanity and brought condemnation to all of his descendents

Genesis 3:15, (NASB), And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

Genesis 6:5-8, (NASB), Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. The Lord said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them." But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

Genesis 6:11-13,17-18 (NASB), Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth. Then God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth. . . . "Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish. "But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall enter the ark you and your sons and your wife, and your sons' wives with you.

Genesis 7:6-7,10,23 (NASB), Now Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of water came upon the earth. Then Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives with him entered the ark because of the water of the flood. . . . It came about after the seven days, that the water of the flood came upon the earth. . . . Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark.

Genesis 9:1, (NASB), And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth."

Genesis 11:1-9, (NASB), Now the whole earth used the same language and the same words. It came about as they journeyed east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. They said to one another, "Come, let us make bricks and burn them thoroughly." And they used brick for stone, and they used tar for mortar. They said, "Come, let us build for ourselves a city, and a tower whose top will reach into heaven, and let us make for ourselves a name, otherwise we will be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth." The Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. The Lord said, "Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them. "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech." So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of the whole earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of the whole earth.

Job 15:14-16, (NASB), "What is man, that he should be pure, Or he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? "Behold, He puts no trust in His holy ones, And the heavens are not pure in His sight; How much less one who is detestable and corrupt, Man, who drinks iniquity like water!

Psalms 5:9, (NASB), There is nothing reliable in what they say; Their inward part is destruction itself. Their throat is an open grave; They flatter with their tongue.

Psalms 14:1-3, (NASB), The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God. They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Psalms 130:3, (NASB), If You, Lord, should mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand?

Psalms 143:2, (NASB), And do not enter into judgment with Your servant, For in Your sight no man living is righteous.

Proverbs 20:9, (NASB), Who can say, "I have cleansed my heart, I am pure from my sin"?

Ecclesiastes 7:20,29 (NASB), Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins. . . . "Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."

Ecclesiastes 9:3, (NASB), This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.

Isaiah 1:4-6, (NASB), Alas, sinful nation, People weighed down with iniquity, Offspring of evildoers, Sons who act corruptly! They have abandoned the Lord, They have despised the Holy One of Israel, They have turned away from Him. Where will you be stricken again, As you continue in your rebellion? The whole head is sick And the whole heart is faint. From the sole of the foot even to the head There is nothing sound in it, Only bruises, welts and raw wounds, Not pressed out or bandaged, Nor softened with oil.

Isaiah 53:6, (NASB), All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

Isaiah 64:6-7, (NASB), For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. There is no one who calls on Your name, Who arouses himself to take hold of You; For You have hidden Your face from us And have delivered us into the power of our iniquities.

Romans 1:18-32, (NASB), For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Romans 3:9-24, (NASB), What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one; There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one." "Their throat is an open grave, With their tongues they keep deceiving," "The poison of asps is under their lips"; "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness"; "Their feet are swift to shed blood, Destruction and misery are in their paths, And the path of peace they have not known." "There is no fear of God before their eyes." Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Romans 5:12,16-19 (NASB), Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned . . . the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation . . . by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one . . . so then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, . . . through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners

1 Corinthians 15:21-22, (NASB), For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Brandan
01-21-02, 12:34 PM
All of Adam's descendents are born with a sinful nature

Psalms 51:5, (NASB), Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Psalms 58:3, (NASB), The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.

Isaiah 48:8, (NASB), "You have not heard, you have not known. Even from long ago your ear has not been open, Because I knew that you would deal very treacherously; And you have been called a rebel from birth.

Brandan
01-21-02, 12:36 PM
All of Adam's descendents are helpless captives to sin and death

Proverbs 5:22, (NASB), His own iniquities will capture the wicked, And he will be held with the cords of his sin.

Proverbs 14:12, (NASB), There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

Jeremiah 4:22, (NASB), "For My people are foolish, They know Me not; They are stupid children And have no understanding. They are shrewd to do evil, But to do good they do not know."

Jeremiah 13:23, (NIV), "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

Jeremiah 17:1, (NASB), The sin of Judah is written down with an iron stylus; With a diamond point it is engraved upon the tablet of their heart And on the horns of their altars,

Matthew 7:18, (NASB), "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.

Matthew 12:34-35, (NASB), "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. "The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.

John 3:18-20, (NASB), "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

Romans 7:14, (NASB), For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

Romans 8:5-8, (NASB), For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Brandan
01-21-02, 12:37 PM
The captivity of Adam's descendents to sin is an act of judgment imposed by God

Genesis 3:15, (NASB), And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

Job 12:24-25, (NASB), "He deprives of intelligence the chiefs of the earth's people And makes them wander in a pathless waste. "They grope in darkness with no light, And He makes them stagger like a drunken man.

Isaiah 6:8-10, (NASB), Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!" He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.' "Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed."

Matthew 13:13-15, (NASB), "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; For the heart of this people has become dull, With their ears they scarcely hear, And they have closed their eyes, Otherwise they would see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, And understand with their heart and return, And I would heal them.'

John 6:65, (NASB), And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

John 12:38-40, (NASB), This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, "He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them."

Romans 1:18-32, (NASB), For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Romans 11:32, (NASB), For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Galatians 3:22, (NASB), But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Brandan
01-21-02, 12:37 PM
God has made Adam's descendents captive to Satan

Luke 8:11-12, (NASB), "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

John 8:43-44, (NASB), "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4, (NASB), And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Hebrews 2:14-15, (NASB), Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

1 John 5:19, (NASB), We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Brandan
01-21-02, 12:37 PM
Adam's descendents do not hae the power to free themselves from their captivity to sin

Proverbs 20:9, (NASB), Who can say, "I have cleansed my heart, I am pure from my sin"?

Ecclesiastes 7:20,29 (NASB), Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins. . . . Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices.

Isaiah 64:6-7, (NASB), For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. There is no one who calls on Your name, Who arouses himself to take hold of You; For You have hidden Your face from us And have delivered us into the power of our iniquities.

Proverbs 5:22, (NASB), His own iniquities will capture the wicked, And he will be held with the cords of his sin.

Jeremiah 13:23, (NIV), "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

Matthew 7:18, (NASB), "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.

Romans 8:5-8, (NASB), For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Brandan
01-21-02, 12:38 PM
While fallen man is captive to sin, his participation in evil is also deliberate

2 Chronicles 36:15-16, (NASB), The Lord, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place; but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against His people, until there was no remedy.

Psalms 2:2-3, (NASB), The kings of the earth take their stand And the rulers take counsel together Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying, "Let us tear their fetters apart And cast away their cords from us!"

Psalms 50:16-17, (NASB), But to the wicked God says, "What right have you to tell of My statutes And to take My covenant in your mouth? "For you hate discipline, And you cast My words behind you.

Isaiah 5:20, (NASB), Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

Jeremiah 9:5, (NASB), "Everyone deceives his neighbor And does not speak the truth, They have taught their tongue to speak lies; They weary themselves committing iniquity.

Micah 7:2-4, (NASB), The godly person has perished from the land, And there is no upright person among men. All of them lie in wait for bloodshed; Each of them hunts the other with a net. Concerning evil, both hands do it well. The prince asks, also the judge, for a bribe, And a great man speaks the desire of his soul; So they weave it together. The best of them is like a briar, The most upright like a thorn hedge. The day when you post your watchmen, Your punishment will come. Then their confusion will occur.

John 1:11, (NASB), He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

John 10:25-26, (NASB), Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

1 Timothy 2:13-14, (NASB), For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

James 4:17, (NASB), Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Brandan
01-21-02, 12:38 PM
Fallen man's captivity to sin has corrupted the mind and darkened the understanding

Deuteronomy 29:2-4, (NASB), And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders. "Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.

Matthew 6:22-23, (NASB), "The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. "But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

John 1:4-5, (NASB), In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

1 Corinthians 2:14, (NASB), But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

2 Corinthians 3:13-15, (NASB), and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;

Ephesians 4:17-19, (NASB), So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.

Titus 1:15, (NASB), To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

Brandan
01-21-02, 12:39 PM
Fallen man's captivity to sin has hardened the heart and corrupted the affections

Ecclesiastes 9:3, (NASB), This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.

Jeremiah 17:9, (NIV), The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure; Who can understand it?

Mark 7:21-23, (NASB), "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. "All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."

Luke 6:45, (NASB), "The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.

Romans 7:5, (NIV), For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions arose by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.

Galatians 5:17,19-21 (NASB), For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. . . . Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

2 Timothy 3:1-8, (NASB), But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith.

2 Timothy 4:3-4, (NASB), For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

James 1:13-15, (NASB), Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

1 John 2:15-16, (NASB), Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.

Brandan
01-21-02, 12:39 PM
Fallen man's will is not free, as some teach, but is in total captivity to a depraved mind and heart

Proverbs 5:22, (NASB), His own iniquities will capture the wicked, And he will be held with the cords of his sin.

Jeremiah 13:23, (NIV), "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

Matthew 7:18, (NASB), "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.

Matthew 13:13-15, (NASB), "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; For the heart of this people has become dull, With their ears they scarcely hear, And they have closed their eyes, Otherwise they would see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, And understand with their heart and return, And I would heal them.'

John 12:38-40, (NASB), This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, "He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them."

Romans 3:9-11, (NASB), What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one; There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God;

Romans 8:5-8, (NASB), For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 11:32, (NASB), For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Brandan
01-22-02, 12:44 PM
For those interested, I'm still putting this document together...

TULIP - Scriptural References
http://www.5solas.org/media.php?id=186

Brandan
01-22-02, 01:07 PM
Those of you who believe that God desires to save all men, you ignorantly cut your argument up in little pieces. How so you ask? Well, simply since you freely acknowledge that God "foreknows" or foresees those who will be saved, He also sees those who will be lost! Why, then, does He create those who will be lost? Certainly He is not under any obligation to create them; there is no power outside Himself forcing Him to do so. If He wants all men to be saved and is earnestly trying to save all men, He could at least refrain from creating those who, if created, certainly will be lost. You cannot consistently hold to the foreknowledge of God and yet deny the doctrines of election and predestination.

Why does God create those He knows will go to hell? It would be mere foolishness for Him to wish to save or try to save those He knows will be lost! That would be for Him to work against Himself. Even man has better sense than to try to do what he knows he will not do or cannot do. If election is based on foreknowledge, it is so meaningless that it is more confusing than enlightening! What sense is there in God electing those whom He knows are going to elect themselves (by choosing with their so called "free will")? That's just plain nonsense.

Debbiek
01-22-02, 05:25 PM
So now we are ignorant huh? Very loving of you kermie.

Brandan
01-22-02, 08:10 PM
ignorant simply means uninformed or unaware. A lot of people may use it insultingly, but I never meant for it to be insulting. In fact, I use the word daily even sometimes to describe my situations (example: I was ignorant of the situation that took place Monday evening. Thanks for informing me.) I'm sorry if you perceived it as a jab.

Main Entry: ig·no·rant
Pronunciation: 'ig-n(&-)r&nt
Function: adjective
Date: 14th century
1 a : destitute of knowledge or education <an ignorant society>; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified <parents ignorant of modern mathematics> b : resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence <ignorant errors>
2 : UNAWARE, UNINFORMED
- ig·no·rant·ly adverb
- ig·no·rant·ness noun
synonyms IGNORANT, ILLITERATE, UNLETTERED, UNTUTORED, UNLEARNED mean not having knowledge. IGNORANT may imply a general condition or it may apply to lack of knowledge or awareness of a particular thing <an ignorant fool> <ignorant of nuclear physics>. ILLITERATE applies to either an absolute or a relative inability to read and write <much of the population is still illiterate>. UNLETTERED implies ignorance of the knowledge gained by reading <an allusion meaningless to the unlettered>. UNTUTORED may imply lack of schooling in the arts and ways of civilization <strange monuments built by an untutored people>. UNLEARNED suggests ignorance of advanced subjects <poetry not for academics but for the unlearned masses>.

Flip Special
01-23-02, 08:41 AM
Kermie, thanks for all the time you put into the discussion! I do appreciate it, honestly!

After taking a step back like somebody suggested (I forgot who said it, sorry!), I've come to realize that most likely, the issue of pre-destination vs. free will is not known completely by man. We don't know all the facts. I think that's a very likely scenario.

Recently I came across a Bible verse, I think in Deuteronomy?? It says basically that some things are secret, known only by God, not intended for us humans to know. I wish I could remember where that verse was!! I'll have to go find it.

God bless Kermie and everybody else!

Kermie, I forgot to tell you, I printed out your 'Bein' Green" post and hung it on my wall! I love that song! I work with a developmentally disabled adult who loves SEsame Street, and he used to have Kermit singing that, and even now I can still hear and picture him! Thanks again!!

Flip

Debbiek
01-23-02, 10:53 AM
I was not debating predestination. I never have. I have asked questions. I may have given a minor opinion. But I am not unaware or ignorant. I take this as a challenge to debate. Here's my best shot at such debate & if you still think I'm ignorant or unaware, I don't care. I have never debated the issue before out of respect for those who believe in predestination. I did not want to offend anyone. Since I am accused of being ignorant about such matters you must want to know what I really think. I apologize in advance. I say this with love & all due respect. The Bible tells us to test our teachings. I see no fruit from the belief that, "Jesus only died for some of our sins" as Kermie stated. When I refer to "chosen, elect, or predestination", I am referring to the theory that ,"Jesus did not die for all men's sins". THe Bible clearly states He died for ALL MAN'S sins, & I think that comment may be blasphemy. Scripture proves that Jesus is not subject to your rules. The word "chosen" is used 6 times to refer to Israel. Also Moses, King Saul, David, & Jesus are God's chosen. The angels are referred to as the elect. Is. 4:21- Christ is God's elect One. Is.65:9,15,22- The redeemed Israelites of the future will be God's elect. In the NT, those who recieved Christ as Saviour are called the elect TWENTY times. The word predestinate in all it's forms, (predestinated), comes from the Greek word "proorizo" which can also mean "determine before" or "ordain". To have foreknowledge or determine before, shows absolutely no "action" or "intent" on God's part. I have read Romans 8:29& 30 & Eph.1:5 & 11. ("according to HIs will" & we know the verses that say it is "His will that NONE should perish".)I read before & after verses I cannot see what you interpret so don't point me to your scripture, I dont interpret it the same way as you although I read it IN CONTEXT. I have made more errors in interpreting scripture in my lifetime than probably any of you have. Been there. It took me years to erase man's teaching in my head & heart. It wasn't a pleasant experience. My study of the Bible will continue throughout my lifetime & I may never get it all downpat correctly, but I sincerly try. The Bible tells us to let the Holy Spirit teach us. I'm not charismatic, don't take it wrong. Gal. 5:19-26 tells how we know if our interpretation or teachings are wrong. What is the fruit of saying, "Jesus only died for some of our sins"? It is not of God if it produces this:(Gal.5) "...worshipping gods(our teacher, our own interpretation revelation, our intelligence), hating, making trouble, being jealous, being angry, being selfish, making people angry with each other, causing divisions among people, feeling envy". Does the belief,"Jesus only died for some men's sins" produce the fruit of the Holy Spirit?-Gal.5- "... love , joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, & self control." That is the PROOF, that you are allowing the Holy Spirit to help you correctly interpret. I think that it is any Christian pastor's job to prevent such blasphemy from being taught to his congregation as "Jesus did not die for all men's sins, just some of us' sins." Such a statement or interpretation about Jesus' work on the cross does not produce good fruit, which is the proof that it is wrong. It causes people to leave their church & stop fellowshipping. It makes people angry, causes divisions, etc. That's not MY Jesus you are referring to. It's a different Jesus. My Saviour died for all men's sins, just as the Bible states. No doubt I will be banned like Philo was. And for making a thread as a refuge for the unchosen? I don't see the problem but I guess you didnt want your views challenged. I was so happy to see the web statements that this was a Christian website. Now I see it is only a 5 point calvinist website. Different Jesus. God is sovereign & not subject to anyone's rule of predestination, in fact they contradict each other. He is sovereign. The word "predestination" and all it's forms,(predestinateD), occur in the entire Bible only 4 times. The word giant appears 21 times. FORGET ABOUT IT! Love, Debbie

Brandan
01-23-02, 11:03 AM
Dear Debbie,

I'm sorry to frustrate you. That was never my intention. However, I feel I should clarify my position on this point.

I believe Jesus died for ALL of our sins.

Thank you,
Brandan

Debbiek
01-23-02, 11:15 AM
Thank God!! I was worried about it, & I sincerly apologize if I offended anyone. love, Debbie

Odyssey
01-23-02, 01:30 PM
Debbie (and the others),

First of all, I am one who believes that Christ died for 'his people (Matt. 1.21);' that he came to give his life as a ransom for 'many (Matt. 20.28; Mark 10.45);' that he died for 'his sheep (John 10.15-16; cf. v. 26);' that he 'bore the sin of many (Is. 53.12; Heb. 9.28); etc., etc. We know that god performs whatsoever he wills and brings his will to pass no matter what (Dan. 4.35; Job 23.13; Ps. 33.9-11; 115.3; 135.6; Is. 14.24; 46.10; Acts 4.28; Eph. 1.11; etc. etc.). Therefore, it is absolutely unthinkable and unscriptural to suggest, nay, assert that it is god's will to save 'all people' and that Jesus died for 'all people' but that only some will be saved because people choose not to be saved! It is most unthinkable that we would even call god 'god' if such were true. That would mean that every one of the above verses referenced (and countless more) would all be lies and that people are greater than god! For even though the passages state, from the mouth of god, that god does 'whatsoever he wills' that he really doesn't. That people stop him from doing that. That the things created can actually say to the creator that they will this and that, and the creator does it! Who has the power here? The verses used over and again to spew out this 'free will' have been proven for centuries to be wrong and taken completely out of context. The only cure for this is the sovereignty of almighty god. God and god alone opens the eyes and hearts. My prayer is that god does just that to us.

Concerning this 'heresy' not producing the 'fruit of the spirit': Hogwash. My life has been so ever blessed with this truth. God has again and again blessed me at every turn. I have such peace now--more than ever before. And those, whom god sees fit to open their eyes to this truth, have the same results. Do I feel better than others? No. I am truly humbled that god would look upon a person such as me and choose me to be his own. It is the most humbling thing I have ever experienced. And that is the same reaction I get from those people to whom god has revealed this truth. Sure there maybe some out there that go to the extreme and don't witness or think that they are better than everyone else, but I believe that they are few and far between.

Grace to you,

jak

Brandan
01-23-02, 01:37 PM
Thank you Jak,

Your response was was beautifully presented.

Your friend,
Bradan

countrymouse
01-23-02, 09:05 PM
Dear Debbie,

I stand with Kermie and CA and Odyssey on this one. I realize that we don't all come away with the same understanding from reading certain passages of Scripture. But, just as Jak said, these doctrines of grace, once understood, are blessing and peace to the believer, not pride and strife. I said something on another thread that I'd like to repeat here: I have seen what I would be apart from God's grace, and that creature is wretched. It was a difficult experience - possibly the lowest period of my life. I know, beyond any shadow of doubt, that I do not deserve to be elect, to be rescued through Christ's atonement.

I can also say that I have had fair chance to compare, by experience, both ways of looking at these issues. I used to worry that I might not manage to hold on to my faith sufficiently to stay within the community of Christ, that I might lose my salvation and die in my sins. I used to worry that God didn't make sure everyone got a chance to hear the gospel and choose.
Deep down I knew that that kind of God couldn't truly be trusted: a God who would leave that much in the hands of human beings.

I now know that I can trust God in everything, and that he is slack in nothing concerning his children. I used to dread the idea of sharing the gospel with unbelievers, because I knew they had important questions I couldn't answer - I had the same questions!
Now I pray for whatever opportunities God will send my way! I'm excited about sharing the good news!

I don't fault you for being honest about what you think; please grant me the same courtesy. I'd love to try to answer any question or objection you have, but one at a time, please! Or you may not want to discuss it. It's up to you.

Do we have to be Calvinists to be in the covenant community? Probably not! Is it important to recognize that we believed only through God's sovereign work of grace operating together with the power of the gospel? I really do think so.

If I lose patience sometimes with someone who disagrees about issues such as election, or eschatology, or sound doctrine in general, it's out of concern for that person, not because I think I've got to win every argument. Not because it's my way or the highway!

We can talk, if you wish!

Sincerely,
countrymouse

Andrew
01-24-02, 03:07 AM
Od,

U posted those verses which say "many" but seem to have left out all the others that say "ALL". Of course, Calvinists wld argue that when the Bible says "many", it means many, and when it says "all" it somehow still means "many".

Roms 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life.

If ALL here means "many", then only "many" men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Unless you maintain that in the first case it means "ALL" but in the second case it means "many", but that is being inconsistent.

----------------
Therefore, it is absolutely unthinkable ... to assert that it is god's will to save 'all people' and that Jesus died for 'all people' but that only some will be saved because people choose not to be saved!
----------------
Why is it unthinkable?

God's will is for all believers to get water baptised, yet not all Christians get baptised by the time they die.

God's will is for us to obey the commandment of love, yet not all Christians do that.

God's will is for us to prosper and be in health, yet many Christians die poor and of sickness.

God's will is one man one wife, yet some Christians die in adultery.

Was it God's will for Adam to eat from that tree? Of course not, he made that clear to Adam. Yet Adam disobeyed.

The list can go on.
;)

Christ_†_Alone
01-24-02, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by Andrew
The list can go on.


Yes, it certainly can, but it doesn't need to.

When we start from a place of misunderstanding what even 1 word in 1 verse says, we've already begun to build for ourselves a foundation that is unreliable.

The bottom line is, many (and yes, that does mean many) refuse to believe God would dare to choose to save SOME, and not all. Yet, that IS exactly what the Bible teaches.

Right there, dissension starts. Truly, the discussion cannot be fruitful from that point forward, until or unless THAT foundational issue is resolved first.

Fact: The grace of God unto redemption was and is, bestowed upon all. All that HE has chosen from before the foundation of the world, to be saved.

Just a few thoughts...

Odyssey
01-24-02, 08:38 AM
Andrew,

We have been over this before (the whole 'many' vs. 'all'). Unless you are going to start believing univeral salvation, then even you have to put some limitation on the term 'all' in Romans 5. Why? Because the passage states, 'So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men' (Rom. 5.18). Notice that Paul was writing about the 'results' of Adam and Christ. Were those results offered to the people they represented? No. They were imputed or applied to those represented. Paul was stating that because of the sin of Adam, his sentence (covenantal separation from god) was applied to 'all people.' To which, I think we agree. But then, Paul stated that because of Christs work, 'justification of life' was applied to 'all men.' Therefore, if 'all people' means every person ever born then 'all people' are 'justified of life'--not offered justification, but actually justified before god. However, since we both know from both Scripture and experience that 'all people' are not justified, there must be some type of limitation on the term--you say 'free will' and I say 'election.'

Concerning the other things you mentioned: That is another matter entirely. It is what scholars call the providence of god. When most Calvinists speak of predetination, they are referring to salvation not every day life. With that stated, I believe (I am not speaking for anyone else here) that everything that happens is the will of god for 'who has resisted his will' (Rom. 9.19)?

Grace to you,

jak

lebarongts88
01-24-02, 10:40 PM
Just wanted to say I am a Calvinist

Andrew
01-25-02, 12:24 AM
Od,

Read carefully:

Roms 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the FREE GIFT came upon ALL men unto justification of life.

It means the free gift of salvation is offered to all men. It does not say that salvation is automatically credited to all men, whether they like it or not. I dont know why you interpret it that way.

Judgement and condemnation are not gifts. But salvation is. And a gift is something that has to be received, not forced upon. Think of it this way: The President out of mercy can pardon all those in prison on death row, but if they refuse the pardon, they still hang.

CA,
-----------
Yes, it certainly can, but it doesn't need to.
-----------
So u agree that when God wills something for man, man may not do it. Likewise if God wills for none to perish, not all will obey.

-------
Fact: The grace of God unto redemption was and is, bestowed upon all. All that HE has chosen from before the foundation of the world, to be saved.
-------
I'd agree with the first sentence. But the second statement is just 'adding' to verse 18.

Andrew
01-25-02, 12:26 AM
lebarongts88,

....good for you. And I just wanted to tell you I'm a Christian.:D

Odyssey
01-25-02, 07:16 AM
Andrew,

You are missing the Paul's whole point in Romans 5. The phrase 'free gift' doesn't mean 'offer' no matter how you slice it. Paul was dealing with the application of the results of Adam and Christ's work. What was the result of the 'free gift' coming upon all people? 'Justification to life.' Not that they would have justification if they accepted the 'free gift.' Because of your view, you need to have 'free gift' mean 'offer' and it doesn't. Again, the context deals with the application of the results of Adam and Christs work to whom they represented. To say that Christ's was offered and Adam's was not is to misread the whole point.

And again, how is it 'offered' to people whom are already dead physically? Is there a 'second chance' for those who refuse to 'accept Christ' in this life? I don't find that taught in Scripture, but that is what you are suggesting if 'all people' means everyone ever born.

Grace to you,

jak

Christ_†_Alone
01-25-02, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by Andrew
Od,


CA,

So u agree that when God wills something for man, man may not do it. Likewise if God wills for none to perish, not all will obey.

-------
Fact: The grace of God unto redemption was and is, bestowed upon all. All that HE has chosen from before the foundation of the world, to be saved.
-------
I'd agree with the first sentence. But the second statement is just 'adding' to verse 18.

No Andrew, I do not agree that man is able to frustrate the will of God. If that were possible, that would make man sovereign OVER God, and that, is unthinkable.

When I said that this can go on and on, what I was referring to, was the back and forth argument. It does do that, for the simple reason of Scripture being taken out of context, being TAUGHT out of context, and creating a group of believers, who have been fed a lie from the word GO.

Where does the Bible tell us that God has willed for no human being to perish?

A: it doesn't. The verse most use to say it does, is this one:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Read carefully, in context, you'll see that Peter was not speaking about the general human population at all. He was directly addressing believers. The Lord is not willing that His elect should perish, (see the exclusive use of the word "us-ward" here), but that all should come to repentance. And ALL His elect, do. Why? Because it's God's will.

There is an entire thread on this very verse, on these forums someplace - you might like to have a look at it.

As for your assumption that I added to Scripture, you are mistaken there. My comment was:

"All that HE has chosen from before the foundation of the world, to be saved"

Scriptural support is here:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Romans 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

There are many more, but I think I've made my point.

Andrew
01-25-02, 11:50 AM
And again, how is it 'offered' to people whom are already dead physically? Is there a 'second chance' for those who refuse to 'accept Christ' in this life? I don't find that taught in Scripture, but that is what you are suggesting if 'all people' means everyone ever born.
---------------

Od,
I find your reasoning amusing. Why not apply the same reasoning to Adam's sin and its consequence for mankind? ie How can Adam's sin affect people who are dead or not even born yet. How can Christ's work be offered to us today when we werent even born yet? Again lets be consistent with Rom 5:18. And there's something called looking forward to the cross and looking backward to the cross.

CA,
---------
No Andrew, I do not agree that man is able to frustrate the will of God. If that were possible, that would make man sovereign OVER God, and that, is unthinkable.
---------
I just showed you with many examples that it was possible. But I can see that you will insist that its not poss cos Calvinists dont believe in free will. That's another topic altogether which I dont wish to go into.

And as for all the verses you quoted, being true to Calvinism, you are simply interpreting the "all", "many", "us" etc to mean the elect only.

eg if I were to quote

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Calvinists wld simply interpret "every creature" to mean only the elected creatures.

peace

Debbiek
01-25-02, 12:44 PM
Countrymouse, maybe I didn't make myself clear. I DO believe that it is through God's grace, & the prompting of the Holy Spirit first, that man accepts the fact that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. I DO believe in total depravity, BEFORE the day of Pentecost. The Bible clearly indicates the Jews are God's chosen people, but they are not ALL going to heaven because SOME of them do not believe in Jesus. This is how calvinists know that they too, can be part of the "CHOSEN". How can a non-Jewish Calvinist go to heaven? The NT refers 21 times to the chosen being people of all nations & ethnicities who accept Jesus as their Saviour. The word predestinate simply means "determine before", it shows no action or intent. The word "giant " is referring to extremely large humans , 21 times. Since predestinate is only mentioned 4 times, it's value is diminshed in GOd's plan. GOd is sovereign some calvinist agreed, so he cannot be subject to your rule that He INTENTIONALLY created some of us for satan.THe problem being that JOhn Calvin was allowed to interpret Scripture, instead of the HOly SPirit. If any of our beliefs are based on education provided by a man, be aware that the BIble says the HOly Spirit is to lead us in understanding through prayer. The word "EDUCATION" in any form, is satan's word, not God's. It is not in the Bible even once.

Odyssey
01-25-02, 01:07 PM
Andrew,

I can and do apply the same reasoning to Adam's sin and the consequences thereof. The punishment of Adam was applied to those he represented--period. People do not have a say in the matter. It was a done deal. It was part of the plan. It was not offered to people. No one was given an invitation to 'open your heart and let sin in.' Paul is comparing 'apples to apples' as the saying goes. You have to make the term 'many' mean those who chose of their own free will to be saved. But what about the 'many' to whom Adam's punishment was applied? Why doesn't that have the same definition? You carry on like you have this passage figured out but you limit the terms the same way as most Calvinists.

I believe that Adam and Jesus represented the same people--'many' of the human race. And the results of Adam and Christ were applied the 'all' of those whom they represented.

Concerning Mark 16.15. Paul already anwered that:'If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister' (Col. 1.23). Paul stated that he had already 'preached' the gospel 'to every creature which is under heaven' by the time he wrote Colossians. In fact if you look at the Greek terms you will find that the are the exact ones Jesus used in Mark 16.15 but they are in the past tense while Jesus' were in the furture tense. But, again, you believe that Mark 16.15 hasn't been fulfilled yet. So who is changing the meaning of words?

Grace to you,

jak

countrymouse
01-25-02, 04:21 PM
Dear Debbie,

I do appreciate your comments, and I don't expect every believer to agree with me about everything. I assure you, however, that I did not come to these conclusions through the influence of anyone other than the Holy Spirit. I know this is true, because I put down all the other books, and turned off the TV and radio, to study the Bible alone. I was reared a Southern Baptist, with a rather eclectic approach to doctrine. The popular systematic theology of the day was, and still is, dispensationalism, which came to America via John Nelson Darby and was spread by C.I. Scofield, D.L. Moody, and Lewis Sperry Chafer, among others. W.A. Criswell popularized it among Southern Baptists. I was introduced to the charismatic and pentecostal traditions by college friends. The only book I had read that was written by a reformed theologian was The Sovereignty of God by J.I. Packer. C.S. Lewis remains one of my favorite Christian authors.
I read Criswell and Hal Lindsay, as well as many authors from the dispensational and charismatic traditions. I do have a seminary degree - in church music, not in theology. The reason I put down the books and turned off the radio and TV was that I got tired of being left confused by so much disagreement about what the Bible actually teaches. I decided to limit myself to reading it alone, and did so for a long, long time.

You said:
GOd is sovereign some calvinist agreed, so he cannot be subject to your rule that He INTENTIONALLY created some of us for satan.

Well enough, except that it isn't my rule.

Romans 9:
11. for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
12. it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.
14. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
16. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.
17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
18. So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
***20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?
***21. Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
***22. What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
23. and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
24. even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?


I do not get to make the rules. I have a tender heart, and I can guarantee I wouldn't be able to turn anyone away! Among my family, I'm known as "the taker in of strays." Occasionally, I get burned. However, I will abide by God's rules, and God's word. I can do no other.

By grace through faith,
countrymouse

Debbiek
01-25-02, 05:33 PM
Countrymouse, I understood your point of view. ty. I never doubted your good heart, it has always shown thru your writings.I understand where you interpret differently than I do & that's ok. The last 2 verses you quoted make all the difference in our views.

Andrew
01-25-02, 07:36 PM
Od,

I thot you'd say that. To be consistent in Rom 5:18 (since you dont believe that all men are offered salvation) you also dont believe that all men sinned -- since u maintain that "Adam's sin was applied to only those he represented, period". Thanks for clearing that up.

No offence, but the 2 concepts are heretical and purely false teachings. But I wld not label you a heretic or false teacher, as do some here towards WOFers. I still consider u my bro in Christ, just a little misguided that's all. And I trust you'd think the same of me.
;)

countrymouse
01-25-02, 11:00 PM
Oops! I found an error in my previous post. Packer's book was Knowing God; I think the other one, which does exist, was written by R.C. Sproul.

Odyssey
01-26-02, 08:46 AM
Andrew,

Instead of thinking that you know what I believe, why don't you ask me before stating that what I believe is herertical? I have already answered this question in another section.

As for being misguided, I don't think so. Unless I am shown from Scripture and plain reason where I ere, I will not change my position, nor will I bow to some man as the 'authourity' on the subject. The people of Jesus day thought that he and his followers were heretics and demon posessed, I think I am in good company.

I don't think you are misguided. I think you are just looking at Scripture through the eyes of tradition, i.e., through what you have been taught the Scriptures state. Try reading them and asking 'who, what, where, when, why, and how' and put tradition aside. !Let me forewarn you! This will lead you away from what you have been taught and you will have to decide (you little 'free willer' you ;) ) if you will continue with tradition or go with what the Bible actually teaches.

Grace to you,

jak

Brandan
01-26-02, 12:25 PM
The one R.C. Sproul book that is considered to be the premier classic is called, "Chosen by God." It's really good, and I highly recommend it.

Brandan

Andrew
01-27-02, 09:27 AM
Od,

In case u forgot you did say: "The punishment of Adam was applied to those he represented--period."

The fact that you used the word "represented" means Adam's sinning affected only a certain grp (like how Christ shed his blood only for a certain grp). In other words, not all have sinned

That to me is false teaching, tradition or not. ;)

Odyssey
01-27-02, 10:03 AM
Andrew,

Check the message boards. My view (and one that is held by a lot of other people) is that Adam was the first covenant man not the first man ever. The people that were before him were not in covenant with god, therefore, they were separated from him. The sin that Adam brought, he brought to the covenant people.

Grace to you,

jak

aletheo
01-27-02, 08:47 PM
There are many that die without knowledge of Christ. We cannot judge them, there is One Lawgiver and Judge. We are to judge ourselves and the Church is to "judge" those within, but the fate of those who do not hear is left up to God alone.

Andrew
01-27-02, 10:23 PM
Adam was the first covenant man not the first man ever.
-------------

Od,
Let me get this straight. So besides NOT believing that Christ shed his blood for all men -- becos you also dont believe that all men sinned -- you are now saying that Adam was not the first man to be created.

Wow! :eek:

Odyssey
01-28-02, 05:32 AM
Andrew,

I never stated that 'all men sinned.' You have assumed this because of my view of Adam.

I whole heartedly believe that all people sin. However, before the fall of Adam, there were, just as it has always been, covenant people and non-covenant people. When Adam fell, he brought sin to the covenant people. Now, they were just like the non-covenant people (Eph. 2.12).

Grace to you,

jak

PS: Andrew, you still haven't addressed how you interpret 'many' from Romans.

Andrew
01-28-02, 08:26 PM
Interesting Od,

who were these "people" that existed b4 Adam sinned? Can you provide some names from scripture?

Oh and "many" just means "many", but "many" logically cannot supercede "all" once "all" is mentioned.

And since you now maintain that you believe all men sinned then you are not being consistent with Roms 5:18. ;)

countrymouse
01-29-02, 06:22 AM
Andrew,

May I ask you a question?

Does the Bible teach the doctrine of election?

Odyssey
01-29-02, 09:37 AM
Andrew,

I do not 'now' believe that 'all men sin,' I have always maintained that. You just assummed I didn't. You do that a lot.

Concerning names of those who existed before Adam: Can you give me the name of Cain's wife? Or Lot's wife? Just because their names aren't mentioned doesn't mean they didn't exist. Furthermore, I have been over this before. Why don't you look at the other post? Why must I repeat myself?

There are differences between Genesis 1 and 2:

Genesis 1:
1. 'God' = 'elohiym'
2. There is grass, herbs, and trees producing after its kind (v. 12).
3. People of both sexes were created at the same time (v.27).
4. They could eat anything they wanted, i.e., no restrictions ('every tree' v. 29).

Genesis 2:
1. 'Lord God' = 'Y@hovah elohiym' - the covenant name of god. Only the covenant people knew god by this name.
2. There was grass, herbs, and trees but they were dormant for god had not caused it to rain and there was no man to till the ground (v. 5).
3. 'Lord God' created a single man only (v. 7).
4. 'Lord God' created a special place in the area, i.e., covenant land, and gave it to the man (covenant inheritance) (vv. 8 and 15).
5. 'Lord God' gives restrictions, as to what the man could eat, i.e., he gave man law (another aspect of covenant - v. 16-17).

There were also people outside of the covenant land for when Cain killed Able and god was sending out, Cain was afraid for his life, ' "Behold, Thou hast driven me this day from the face of the ground; and from Thy face I shall be hidden, and I shall be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth, and it will come about that whoever finds me will kill me" ' (Gen. 4.14). Notice that god didn't correct him and say, 'There is no one else out there; it's just you.' No, god stated, ' "Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him sevenfold" ' (v. 15) thus validating Cain's concern.

There it is in a nutshell. I am sure you will find more things that need explaining. But, why don't you answer our questions?

Concerning 'all' and 'many': I am sorry Andrew but there is no way all and many can be used the way you are suggesting. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding. Could you give me an example? Thanks.

Grace to you,

jak

Andrew
01-29-02, 10:41 PM
Yes countrymouse, I believe in predestination and election for the Bible teaches that.

And yes Od, you did imply that not all men sinned when you said:

"The sin that Adam brought, he brought to the covenant people." ie it did not affect the non-convenant people which you believe existed b4 Adam. But i take it u have clarified your stand: All men sinned but not all men are offered salvation. This to me wld go against Rom 5:18 as you are not being consistent.

No, the Bible does not teach that there were "convenantal and non-convenantal people" created before Adam or that Jesus shed his blood only for the covenantal people. I'm not interested in speculation and add-on theories.

I do not wish to go thru the all and many thing again as i have already proven my point with Rom 5:18. If you refuse to see the simple logic there then that's your perogative. ;)

countrymouse
01-30-02, 12:16 AM
Ok, I'm guessing that your concept of predestination is different than the Calvinist concept; you would probably say that God, by foreknowledge, saw beforehand those who would believe, and chose them. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Andrew
01-30-02, 03:22 AM
Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
--------------

To me predestination is simply an added assurance to the believer that he cannot lose his salvation. This is what Paul was trying to say in Romans 8.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

predestinate --> call --> justified --> glorified

it's an unbreakable chain.

why predestinate us?

so that Christ can have many brothers. v39

implications for us?:

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? [God is on our side]
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? [blessings]
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. [no one can condemn us]
34* Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. [Jesus our advocate]
35* Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? [inseparable from Christ]
37* Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. [Christ conquered we rest and enjoy]
38* For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39* Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [forever saved]

so what is predestination to me? just what it says: those that God foreknew, he predestinated to be conformed to the likeness of his Son. :)

Andrew
01-30-02, 03:32 AM
countrymouse,

I might as well post this here. This is what HIS posted in another thread.
---------------------
A common way to explain the scriptural statements about predestination is to say that election to salvation is based on God’s foreknowledge of human choice. (See Romans 8:29.) Calvin emphatically rejected this idea. God does not merely know the future and act accordingly; He actually predetermines the eternal destiny of each individual apart from that person’s will.

Opponents of Calvin accused this doctrine of making God unjust. He responded that we cannot judge God as unjust, for He determines what justice is. By definition, whatever God does is right, because He is God. We cannot criticize the doctrine of predestination by our concept of what is fair. If it seems to contradict our notions of justice, then our ideas are faulty. Calvin’s detractors could hardly disagree that God is the determiner of right and wrong. He is just and holy, and we cannot stand in judgment of Him.

Our concepts are faulty in comparison to His. (See Romans 9:14, 20-21.) They had a counterargument, however: God is the one who has given us our concept of justice through creation, conscience, and the revelation of His Word. If the doctrine of predestination seems to contradict our most fundamental ideas of justice and fairness, we should reexamine our theology. Perhaps the doctrine of unconditional election violates our God-given sense of fairness because it is based on a misinterpretation of Scripture.

Calvin struggled with this problem and concluded that predestination is a mystery. He even went so far as to call the decree of reprobation 'an awful decree' (decretum horribile).

He could not explain predestination to his own satisfaction, or reconcile it with our perception of human freedom, but said we must affirm it because the Bible teaches it. That was his final answer to the various objections raised to his doctrine.
-----------

I do not understand predestination completely either. Just like I cant grasp the trinity completely either. But I lean towards the bolded part.

Odyssey
01-30-02, 07:31 AM
Andrew,

This view of covenantal and non-covenantal people is not an 'add on theory' just because you have not heard it before. As I stated earlier, this view was/is common in a lot of European circles, according to the book 'Origin Solutions' by Fisher. It answered a lot of questions for me, specifically, why there were differences in the 'creation' account. This shows that there were actually two things recorded: 1) the creation of everything in general and 2) the creation of a covenant people.

Concerning theories: You state that you are not interested in 'add on theories' but yet you subscribe to the completely foreign idea of dispensationalism, something that is not taught in scripture. That school of thought 'adds on' the 'gap' theory, i.e., the idea that god wanted to establish a physcial kingdom with Israel, but because they rejected the Messiah, he postponed that kingdom until our time! That can not be proven from scripture. It is completely read into the passages! Also, the idea that we are the ones that are supposed to be seeing Christ return, but from any casual reading of the Scriptures it can be seen that Christ (and the apostles) were speaking to their contemporaries about things that they would witness.

Concerning your refusal to support your view of 'all' and 'many': How convenient. You just state what you believe but don't support it. Maybe we should just do the same thing. Furthermore, I am not being inconsistant with Romans 5.18. I have shown that there is no possible way that Paul was referring to every single person ever born by the use of his term 'all.' It doesn't line up with the rest of the context; something that you are refusing to address. Let me simply ask you this: Do you believe in Universalism? That is, the idea that all people will go to heaven. Do you believe that?

Lastly, I have shown over and again that Jesus never taught that he would give his life as a ransom for 'all,' he always, without fail, stated that he would give is as a ransom for 'many.' Do you honestly think that Paul would teach something different from Jesus? Obviously, I don't. The prophesies of Jesus death also show that he was to 'bear the sin of many' and not all. How do you get around that? Do you pull a verse out of context and try to make the Bible contradict itself? All I am saying is that there is overwhelming evidence that Jesus would 'save his people from their sins.'

Grace to you,

jak

countrymouse
01-30-02, 08:34 AM
I agree with Calvin that predestination is a difficult concept. However, I would not agree with him that unconditional election is questionable because it offends our sense of justice. In 1 Corinthians chapter 1 Paul addressed God's criteria for choice; also see Jesus' prayer in the gospel of John.

Ok, let me ask you this: In your view, did God know the ones whom he'd chosen before he sent Jesus?

aletheo
01-30-02, 10:04 PM
From Andrew's post,

[A common way to explain the scriptural statements about predestination is to say that election to salvation is based on God’s foreknowledge of human choice. (See Romans 8:29.) Calvin emphatically rejected this idea. God does not merely know the future and act accordingly; He actually predetermines the eternal destiny of each individual apart from that person’s will.]

This brings up a point I mentioned on another thread. The teaching that God elects regardless of foreknowledge of deeds good or evil means that God decrees salvation or damnation regardless of man's fall into sin. People are not decreed to damnation because of their sins but because of God's prior, divine election. Of course Calvinists will state that man is sent to hell because of his fallen condition and wickedness. But that is just rhetoric, because logically it does not follow. One or the other must be true. Or we throw up our hands and quote Romans 11 about the depth of God's ways in that He reconciles our self-contradicting doctrines and shortcomings in Biblical interpretation and understanding.

One or the other is true.

Christian teaching is that individuals are separated from God to destruction because of their utter sinfullness and unwillingness to repent, not because of some preexisting self-destruct condition created by God.

God creates out of love. Love creates. Does God create out of hatred? He does not. The following passage was written to me on the other post as if it proves something. This passage needs to be interpreted in context of Scripture and theology; it does not, in fact, teach election of the individual to personal salvation or damnation.
[Romans 9:11-13, (NASB), for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."]

Yours,
P.S. How do I use the tags, or vB Code?

countrymouse
01-30-02, 11:08 PM
aletheuo,

I wish I could help with your last question, but I'm still in the process of figuring it out! I'm not a tekkie; for that matter, I don't know whether I can even spell it!


The Romans 9 passage about Jacob and Esau:

When I think about that passage and about the history we know of both the brothers, I find it obvious that God blessed both of them, but in different ways. God chose to carry on the covenant he made with Abraham through Jacob, but not through Esau. Esau became very wealthy, had a big family, and left a legacy behind him in the form of the nation of Edom. Jacob, however, lived in covenant with God, wrestled with the angel, dreamed of the ladder, and knew that God was with him through all his troubles in spite of his weaknesses. Why? It was certainly not because Jacob the grabber was nobler than Esau the hungry.

God does things for reasons we don't fully understand; Yes, he created out of love, but also in order to demonstrate his glory. He has chosen not to make the same provision for all people, in terms of spiritual matters. Under the terms of the old covenant, Israel was favored above all other nations; she was also held to higher moral and religious standards. God moved more quickly to chastise her than anyone else. Why should some people have been favored by God just because they were born as genetic descendants of Abraham? You will probably say that Abraham was a good man. Humanly speaking, he was. But God knew how his descendants were going to behave, and chose him anyway. God had a purpose known only to himself.

God said something curious to Moses in Exodus 34: (ASV)

6. And Jehovah passed by before him, and proclaimed, Jehovah, Jehovah, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abundant in lovingkindness and truth,
7. keeping lovingkindness for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin; and that will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation.

He forgives sin for thousands, but does not clear the guilty? Aren't we all guilty unless God applies Christ's atonement to us? Didn't David say in one of his psalms, "Blessed is the man to whom God will not impute iniquity?" Unless we deny the doctrine of original sin, it looks to me as though God chooses whom he will forgive, as he said to Moses:

Exodus 34:

and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.


And, from Romans 9:

20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?


Things to ponder...


Respectfully,
countrymouse

Fledge
01-31-02, 09:31 AM
Go here http://www.predestinarian.net/misc.php?s=&action=faq&page=3#HTML to find out about codes and all.

matthew miller
02-20-02, 09:09 AM
I too have battled with calvinism (and arminianism). The bible teaches both free will and the sovereignty of God. So how does one say (like calvin or beza) that there is no free will or that we only react based on irresistable grace. Likewise how does one deny that Romans 8,9, or 1 peter, the epistles, etc. teach that we are elect. I answer this with another question, who wrote the book of Romans? was it Paul or the Holy spirit? was it half Paul and half Holy spirit? How was Jesus both God and man? Is there such thing as half God? There is no real finite answer because we would never be able to comprehend it. So I believe both the election and the free choice of man must illogically co-exist. I realize this seems cheap but, the battle has raged from Augustine and pelagius to Zwingli and the Catholics, and will go on until the second advent of Christ.

Odyssey
02-20-02, 09:16 AM
Matthew,

I agree that the battle will continue, however, the bible doesn't teach that people have 'free will.'

Grace to you,

jak

Brandan
02-20-02, 09:24 AM
I responded to Matthew here: http://www.predestinarian.net/showthread.php?postid=7314#post7314

fireonthealtar
02-21-02, 03:40 PM
I Believe Calvin knew about living and walking in the spirit and in his Writing's wrote about walking in the spirit....

disciple
03-04-02, 03:17 PM
i just read the initial posts and a couple proceeding so i don't know if this was already discussed. i wanted to deal with one thing you said:


It bothers me to think that God would block certain people from coming to Him.

this touches on a thought or belief that there are miriads trying to get to God but will not be allowed b/c He didn't elect them. this is simply a fautly assumption since there are none who desire to even seek after God (romans 3:10-18) of their own free will. this is because our wills are in bondage to sin and to be saved we must be drawn and made willing. this is what calvinism (augustinism, etc.) teaches. it is not that there are people trying to get in and God just won't allow them b/c He's mean and nasty and has already decided. if we understand that all men are totally depraved, dead, enemies of God, haters of God, and without any desire to come to God then we can understand the foolishness of this belief (Gen 6:5, 8:21; Job 14:4; Ec 7:20; Isa 64:6; Jer 13:23, 17:9; Joh 8:34; Ro 3:9-18, 23, 5:12-21, 6:20, 8:7-8; 1Cor 2:14; Eph 2:1-5, 4:17-19; Col 2:13; 2Tim 2:25-26; Tit 3:3; Jas 2:10; 1 joh 5:19). God must enlighten, free, and resurrect men spiritually to enable (give them the desire) people to come to Him otherwise no one would ever come (john 6:44, 65; acts 13:48; ro 6:7, 18-23, 8:28ff; eph 1:18; col 1:13f).

disciple
03-05-02, 02:48 PM
this is a resonse to kirmie's post where he said:


But let me tell you how God hardens hearts... First, man is so sinful, that without God's influence in their lives (that's any man who's lived), nothing good would ever come of them. We can't exaggerate this point enough. Left on your own, you could easily turn into the next Hitler or Stalin. The only reason you see God in His wondrous glory is because He revealed Himself to you. Those whom He has chosen not to reveal Himself to, He has instead, hardened their hearts. How does He do this? He simply allows these sin loving folk to fulfill the desires of their heart! He lifts His providential hand from their lives, and lets sin run the full course. In effect, He is hardening their hearts via his passive decrees.

currently we're doing a bible study in our house on the 5-points of calvinism. right now we're going over election. obviously, the issue of God's hardening will be discussed (and minimally has been discussed already). anyway, i know the traditional reformed view is that God hardens passively. it is understood this way in order to protect God's character so that He is not the author of sin. but i'm not convinced that Scripture bears this out. for one, the verb for harden is often in the active voice (ex 4:21, 7:3, 9:12, 10:1, 20, 27, 11:10, 14:4, 8, 17; dt 2:30; jos. 11:20; john 12:40; ro 9:18). it does occur in the passive voice but even then it seems that it is God who does the hardening initially (ex. 7:3, 13, 22, 8:19, 9:7, 35; ro 11:7, 25; 2 co 3:14; heb 3:13). it also says that pharoah hardened his own heart but from the text this is because God first prophesied that He would (active voice) harden pharoah's heart (ex. 4:21). i don't know. just food for thought perhaps. playing devil's advocate. it seems that we have God hardening (active voice), people being hardened (passive or middle voice), and people hardening themselves (active or middle voice). additionally, what shall we do with such passages as job 1:21-22, 2:10, isa 45:7, amos 3:6. it is clear that God is the one who not only is in control and directing all things, but is Himself the actively at work in situations that have evil people doing evil things. it is convenient to be able to say that God allowed such and such because it seems to protect Him from being the author of evil but does Scripture say this? a great article dealing with this issue is here: http://www.soundofgrace.com/v8/n3/911_jp.htm

disciple
03-05-02, 02:53 PM
here's another good article concerning my last post:
http://www.desiringgod.org/Online_Library/OnlineArticles/Subjects/Suffering/GodAndEvil.htm

Brandan
03-05-02, 03:08 PM
I have no doubts that God actually hardens hearts. I believe when a heart is hardened, He has made the decision to do so. The way I view good and evil is God is actively at work causing all "good" to happen, and when He restrains himself (which is an action), "evil" naturally creeps in. In conclusion, I believe His passivity is in fact activity. A passive action could be seen as "active" restraint. Confused?

disciple
03-05-02, 03:49 PM
i agree but am thoroughly confused :confused:

stauron
03-07-02, 07:51 AM
Hi all,

since confusion is already here I can't hurt anything by jumping in. :D

An analogy that helped me is elephants. When God created elephants there was nothing 'elephantlike' about God that caused Him to create that way, and He isn't more elephantlike now that He has created them. Yet, they are still His creatures and He is responsible for making them.

I think evil is the same way. It flows from His hand. He created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Think about that a bit.

It is His tree, created before the fall. It contains the knowledge of good and evil. I don't get any passivity in that bit.

This may not be helpful, some have told me as much. But it makes sense to me...

stauron

disciple
03-11-02, 05:27 PM
thanks stauron! that's an interesting way to look at it. the only thing is that an elephant is a creature while evil is a concept. did God create all concepts? i've always thought about it this way:

God didn't create evil (as if it were a creature) but He created creatures who were mutable and had the potential to sin. So in essense God created sin in potential or created creatures with the potential and ability to sin.

Traveler
03-13-02, 04:25 PM
Rotkaepchen (that's Stauron to the rest of you!) said:



An analogy that helped me is elephants. When God created elephants there was nothing 'elephantlike' about God that caused Him to create that way, and He isn't more elephantlike now that He has created them. Yet, they are still His creatures and He is responsible for making them.

I think evil is the same way. It flows from His hand. He created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Think about that a bit.

It is His tree, created before the fall. It contains the knowledge of good and evil. I don't get any passivity in that bit.

So, do you see any passivity from God in the creation (vs. creeping in) of evil? Do you think that He actively decreed the Fall or did He allow it to happen? Like Otar (Disciple) said:


i know the traditional reformed view is that God hardens passively. it is understood this way in order to protect God's character so that He is not the author of sin. but i'm not convinced that Scripture bears this out

Debbiek
03-13-02, 04:58 PM
I am very much aware of evil, so much so that I could write a book about it, but I am not evil, nor did I create it.
Liberty brings about evil. Choice brings about evil. Possibility brings about evil. It comes from within the being that has liberty, choices, & many possibilities.
The tree of the knowledge of good & evil was created after Lucifer. God may have placed this knowledge of Lucifer's evil thinking in a tree, but I can only put it in a book.

Odyssey
03-14-02, 10:34 AM
Isaiah 45.7. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amos 3.6. Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

'evil' - ra‘ rah or fem. her ra‘ah

from 07489; TWOT-2191a, 2191c

AV-evil 442, wickedness 59, wicked 25, mischief 21, hurt 20, bad 13, trouble 10, sore 9, affliction 6, ill 5, adversity 4, favoured 3, harm 3, naught 3, noisome 2, grievous 2, sad 2, misc 34; 663

adj
1) bad, evil
1a) bad, disagreeable, malignant
1b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
1c) evil, displeasing
1d) bad (of its kind-land, water, etc)
1e) bad (of value)
1f) worse than, worst (comparison)
1g) sad, unhappy
1h) evil (hurtful)
1i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
1j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
1j1) in general, of persons, of thoughts
1j2) deeds, actions

n m
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
2a) evil, distress, adversity
2b) evil, injury, wrong
2c) evil (ethical)

n f
3) evil, misery, distress, injury
3a) evil, misery, distress
3b) evil, injury, wrong
3c) evil (ethical)

Grace to you,

jak

disciple
03-14-02, 12:14 PM
word translated evil in KJV also refers to or can be translated adversity or calamity as in a natural disaster or battle.

alt. translation of isaiah 45:7 I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. [peace as opposed to calamity, unrest, or disaster not peace as opposed to evil; the text demands that these be opposite ideas]

note on isaiah 45:7 This verses affirms that God is ultimately sovereign over his world, including mankind and nations. In accordance with his sovereign will, he can cause wars to cease and peace to predominate (as he was about to do for his exiled people through Cyrus), or he can bring disaster and judgment on nations (as he was about to do to Babylon through Cyrus).

alt. translation of amos 3:6 If an alarm sounds in a city, do people not fear?7 If disaster overtakes a city, is the Lord not responsible? [alarm in a city means something bad is going to happen, e.g., invasion resulting in disaster or calamity]

not just being disagreeable but playing devil's advocate. in my opinion KJV is not a good translation here. just food for thought...

disciple
03-14-02, 12:17 PM
in other words...God did not create evil as the KJV reads...but He does bring about consequences or actions in people's lives that are bad and unfortunate. these verses speak more to His sovereignty than anything else.

Odyssey
03-14-02, 02:47 PM
disciple,

I completely agree that god is sovereign over all things. To me, that would include evil. What I was showing was how it was defined and translated. In both cases, the primary definition was 'evil.' Then, the KJV people used it that way most times.

Grace to you,

jak

stauron
03-15-02, 12:22 AM
tonitr (aka traveler),

The whole active and passive thing is really foreign to my understanding.

With the caveat that you all read Bondage of the Will by Luther and understand that our will is derivative and God's will is determinative I can agree with debbiek.

Our very being is dependant on God. We are the light, God is the space that bends us.

The 'liberty' that we enjoy from God's image is as creaturely as anything else about us.

I think that if we try to look at things from the divine overview we can see that God being passive is kind of oxymoronic. God wills 'something' from 'nothing'. Does He sit down and cogitate before He designs? Does He sketch out a blueprint and then follow the numbers? We certainly show our slips when we think so.

Considering the message of Ephesians and Hebrews, God planned the end from the beginning. All the steps in the middle were setup and executed right on schedule. Christ took on flesh as part of the plan. Christ came and died as part of the plan. If we make those things contingent on the capricious "choice...[or] possibility" bound up in a created thing then we certainly loose certainty, and God's plan does not sound like a contingency.
35 "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?' There is no mention of man's exigency, only his dependancy.

IF (logical not possible, but said for arguments sake) evil is allowed it doesn't really relieve God of culpability.

Maybe better terms would be unrighteous and righteous. It is not possible for God to act in an unrighteous manner. But He did, with forethought, plan out and execute His own Son, something universally condemned as evil in the scriptures, and declared specifically as evil by God Himself. Was God unrighteous?

disciple
03-15-02, 12:43 AM
great post stauron! i think you hit the nail on the head. focusing the subject on the crucifixion is a good way to understand how God works in bringing about situations we might categorize and view as "evil" for His own glory and to His own end.

Rom 11:33, (NAS), Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!