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countrymouse
01-30-02, 11:31 PM
This thread is open for discussion of the eschatological time statements. Enjoy! :)

HIS
01-31-02, 04:08 AM
countrymouse,

What happened to Andrew? I was looking forward to hearing his statements regarding your John the Baptist passage (Matt 3).

Will you give your thoughts on this passage?

Thanks,
HIS

countrymouse
01-31-02, 09:02 AM
Good morning, His: :)

I had to ban Andrew :( for faliure to abide by forum rules after having been warned. I, too, was looking forward to discussing this subject with him.

I'll be glad to post my thoughts on the Matthew 3 passage:



Matthew 3 (ASV)
1. And in those days cometh John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, saying,
2. Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3. For this is he that was spoken of through Isaiah the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make ye ready the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4. Now John himself had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his food was locusts and wild honey.
5. Then went out unto him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about the Jordan;
6. and they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
7. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8. Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:
9. and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10. And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11. I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire:
12. whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.

I hope you won't mind if I go a little more in depth with it than I had orginally planned.

Keeping the principle of audience relevance in mind, we can see that John claimed that the Messianic kingdom foretold by the prophets was about to arrive; the time had come. Christ's incarnation, his earthly ministry, his suffering, death, and resurrection, the final judgement, and his ascension to the throne of David were all part and parcel of the same event, according to Old Testament prophecy.

John said that the axe was already positioned at the root of the trees, and that Christ's fan, or tool for winnowing, was already in his hand; this meant God was ready to judge, to separate the sheep from the goats.


You already know that there was to be a "great and terrible day of the LORD," a judgment to end that age. John's very appearance at that time signified that the day of the LORD was near. Why?

Look at what Gabriel said to John's father, Zacharias:


Luke 1:
15. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. 16. And many of the children of Israel shall be turn unto the Lord their God.
17. And he shall go before his face in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to walk in the wisdom of the just; to make ready for the Lord a people prepared for him.



You may already know that one of the signs preceding the day of the LORD was the coming of Elijah. Let's look at some passages about John and Elijah:

First, the prophecy from Malachi 4:

5. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of Jehovah come.
6. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers; lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.


To "smite the earth with a curse" would have meant cutting off the covenant people without leaving even a remnant to enter the new covenant.


Matthew 11:
14. And if ye are willing to receive it, this is Elijah, that is to come.



Matthew 17: (also Mark 9:12,13)
10. And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come?
11. And he answered and said, Elijah indeed cometh, and shall restore all things:
12. but I say unto you, that Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but did unto him whatsoever they would. Even so shall the Son of man also suffer of them.
13. Then understood the disciples that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.



Taking all this into consideration, we can see that God put everything into place at the appointed time.

I know that the past fulfillment view seems, at first, to contradict other things in the New Testament that we know also had to be fulfilled in conjunction with the return of Christ and the day of the LORD judgment. The truth is, it only contradicts the currently popular ideas of what those things would be like: the resurrection, rapture, new heavens and earth, and establishement of the New Jerusalem on earth.

You might try asking yourself whether the nature of those events could be different than the way you've been taught to see them.

I'll leave it there until I hear from you, or someone else who might like to jump in. Odyssey might like to add comments, too. All are welcome!


Blessings,
countrymouse

Raised
02-01-02, 03:29 AM
Do preterists actually believe that every prophecy in the BIble has been fulfilled? including the whole of Revelation?

HIS
02-01-02, 05:02 AM
countrymouse,

You seem to do a great job of proving through the scripture that John was (or came in the spirit of) Elijah.

But, who could argue this point...I agree.

I have a question with this statement:

"Christ's incarnation, his earthly ministry, his suffering, death, and resurrection, the final judgement, and his ascension to the throne of David were all part and parcel of the same event, according to Old Testament prophecy."

Where do you see from the scripture that the events you describe (and posted) truly represented this "final" judgement. I understand that there are many types of judgements spoken of in the scripture...but, is there a "final" judgement?

I don't even see the word final in the scripture.

I do see that you use the phrase "a judgment to end that age." So, maybe this is your reference. But, this would be your final judgement...not God's.

Only other question is what you mean by "his ascension to the throne of David."

Please explain what you mean by this...

Thanks!

HIS

Odyssey
02-01-02, 08:05 AM
A couple of points that need to be addressed regarding John the baptist is this:

1) John dressed like Elijah:

Matt. 3.4. 'Now John himself had a garment of camel’s hair, and a leather belt about his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey.'

2 Kings 1:8 'And they answered him, "He was a hairy man with a leather girdle bound about his loins." And he said, "It is Elijah the Tishbite." '

2) Malachi 4.5-6: ' "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. And he will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse." '

Now we must as some questions: Obviously this is the 'last day' for it is the 'great and terrible day of the LORD.' But what we should ask is, 'The last day for whom?' We find out in Malachi 1.1: 'The oracle of the word of the LORD to Israel through Malachi' (emphasis added). From this we see that 'Elijah' would be sent to Israel. Therefore the 'great and terrible day of the LORD' would not be for the universe but it would be for Israel.

Next, as it was already proven, Elijah was John the baptist (Matt. 11.7-14; 17.10-13; Mark 9.11-13). Of particular relevance is Luke 1.17 where Gabriel quoted Mal. 4.6 thus proving that John was Elijah.

Next let's look at John's message. In Matt. 3.7, John said, 'You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?' The actual Greek states, '...who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come' (emphasis added). Here we see that the judgment that John was preaching about was 'about to come' on his audience. It was so close in fact that the axe was already laid at the root and the winnowing fork (a tool used to separate wheat from chaff) was already in the hand of god.

With all of this taken together we see that John and his message fits perfectly with the prophecy in Malachi:
1) 'Elijah' was to come - John was 'Elijah'
2) 'Elijah' was to be sent to Israel - John was sent to Israel
3) 'Elijah's' message was to be one of restoration and judgment - John's message was of restoration and judgment

Therefore, if Elijah was to be sent before the 'great and terrible day of the LORD' and John was Elijah, then the 'great and terrible day of the LORD' must have been for the generation to whom John was sent. The 'great and terrible day of the LORD' was imminent to first century Israel and can't be stretched into our day.

Grace to you,

jak

Odyssey
02-01-02, 08:21 AM
Raised,

Yes and no. Yes we believe that all prophecy has been fulfilled but no in that we believe that there are still continuing aspects of that fulfillment. Salvation is a perfect example of this. The fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies found were filled to the fullest with the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension but that doesn't mean that salvation is finished and not for future generations.

Grace to you,

jak

HIS
02-01-02, 01:04 PM
Odyssey,

I hope you weren't trying to convince me of your claim that John the Baptist was Elijah. As I have already stated, I agreed with countrymouse...

Regarding your comment below:

"Obviously this is the 'last day' for it is the 'great and terrible day of the LORD.' But what we should ask is, 'The last day for whom?' We find out in Malachi 1.1: 'The oracle of the word of the LORD to Israel through Malachi' (emphasis added). From this we see that 'Elijah' would be sent to Israel."

Again, like countrymouse, I continue to see the use of last day or final judgement, but I don't see God use this phrase in His word. If you just want to say that this is your opinion, then that is fine.

Now, if you want to use the expression "last day" when speaking of our resurrection through / by / with Christ, I am okay with this.

HIS

Odyssey
02-01-02, 01:22 PM
HIS,

The idea is that, logically, there would be a 'last day' of the 'last days.' Also, Jesus referred to the 'last day' on different occasions:

John 6.39-40. ' "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." '

John 6.44. ' "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." '

John 6.54. ' "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." '

John 11.24. 'Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." ' (With this statement from Martha, the concept of the 'last day' must have been a popular Jewish thought.)

John 12.48. ' "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." '

Grace to you,

jak

Odyssey
02-01-02, 02:53 PM
HIS,

Also, my goal was not to convince you the John was Elijah, but to show that 'the great and terrible day of the LORD' had to come upon the generation which saw Elijah or John or Elijah or ...

Grace to you,

jak

HIS
02-02-02, 02:35 AM
If you want to call or refer to the resurrection as a "last day" event, then (as my post states) I'm okay with this.

Also,

I am convinced that the "great and terrible day of the Lord" came upon the generation which saw Elijah in John the Baptist...

Thanks for the clarification,
HIS

countrymouse
02-02-02, 05:41 AM
Hi, guys!

HIS, my reference to Christ ascending to the throne of David was a reference to this passage from Isaiah, among others:


Isaiah 9 (NASB - 1995 update)
6. For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7. There will be no end to the increase of {His} government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.


God had promised David that he would give his lineage the throne forever, and Jesus fulfilled that promise, as the Son of David, when he returned in victory over the enemies of his people.

You already know that Jesus' own disciples were confused about why he didn't muster an army, defeat Rome, and claim the crown. He kept saying that his kingdom was not like that; not of this world. The events of the Roman-Jewish war, beginning with the demise of Nero (and with him the Julio-Claudian dynasty), signified that Jesus had defeated every enemy.

By the way, Odyssey explained "the final judgement" much better than I could have! And that is what I meant by final judgment. It isn't that God does not continue to sit as judge over the affairs of men; he does. But that was the final "Day of the LORD" as prophesied in the Old Testament.

Blessings to you,
cm

Odyssey
02-02-02, 10:40 AM
HIS,

I refer to it as a last day event because Christ did not because I 'want to.' You made it sound like it was something I made up. Maybe it was just the way I read your post. Anyway, the reason resurrection is considered a 'last day event' is because Jesus said it was.

Also, I was showing that the phrase 'last day' is recorded in the Scriptures and from the lips of Jesus himself.

Grace to you,

jak

countrymouse
02-03-02, 03:12 PM
Why don't we go ahead and look at more time statements, rather than arguing in circles?



Luke 21:
20. "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
21. "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
22. because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.


We know from the record of history that Jerusalem was surrounded by armies within that generation, and that the city was destroyed and the temple burned. Those were the days of vengeance, so that ALL things which were written would be fulfilled.

Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets:



Matthew 5:
17. "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.



Did he come to fulfill part of it then and the rest of it 2,000 or more years later?


No, he came to fulfill it all within that generation!




Matthew 24: (Also Luke 21:32, Mark 13:30)
34. "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.


All the prophecies in the Olivet discourse were to be fulfilled before that generation passed away. If this were the only time statement, it might arguably mean something other than within about 40 years. However, Jesus also said:



Matthew 16:
27. "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.
28. "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."


Jesus said he would return in his kingdom, in the glory of his Father, with his angels, and would repay every man according to his deeds while some of the people standing there listening were still alive!



Matthew 26:
63. But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God."
64. Jesus *said to him, "You have said it {yourself;} nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."


To whom was Jesus speaking? To the high priest, not to us!


I'll stop there for now, and pick back up after some discussion, with time statements in Acts and the epistles. Jak and Peter, feel free to add anything I missed!

Blessings all,
cm

Odyssey
02-03-02, 04:32 PM
cm,

I would like to add just one other passage, Matthew 13.24-30:

' "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares also among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprang up and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. And the slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ And the slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No; lest while you are gathering up the tares, you may root up the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn." ' " '

Later, after Jesus left the multitudes and he went into the house, the twelve asked him, ' "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field." And He answered and said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. Therefore just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (vv.36-43)'

Let's break it down even further:

1) The sower of the 'good seed' was the 'Son of Man' or Jesus Himself.

2) The 'field is the world.' Question: Into what 'world' was Jesus sent--the world in general or the OC Jewish world? Jesus was sent into the OC Jewish world of the first century. That is where he preached. Paul wrote, 'But when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons' (Gal. 4.4-5).

3) The 'good seed' were the 'sons of the kingdom.' This, imho, refers to the disciples and their missionary work.

4) Now, notice the 'gathering'. There is not a secret gathering of the wheat before the harvest. The wheat and the tares are gathered together at the same time . So much for a 'rapture.'

5) Next, when would this 'harvest' take place? Jesus stated that it would be ' in the full end of this age' (YLT; emphasis added). We must now ask the million dollar question: In what 'age' was Jesus and the disciples then living? The OC Jewish age of the first century! Jesus stated that the harvest (and the connected judgment) would take place at the end of their age. As a side note, this makes the following statement by Jesus even more profound, 'Do you not say, "There are yet four months, and then comes the harvest?" Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes, and look on the fields, that they are white for harvest' (John 4.35). The 'harvest' was so close to their time, that they 'fields...(were) white.' The 'harvest' was just about to begin!

Here again, is clear proof that Jesus taught that 'all things written' would be fulfilled by the end of the OC Jewish age.

Grace to you,

jak

countrymouse
02-03-02, 06:52 PM
Thanks, jak!


One additional comment, HIS:

We've all heard the adage "can't see the forest for the trees." That's a common problem in terms of coming to a correct understanding of what we read in the Bible. We can focus so intently on one facet of doctrine, whether eschatological or soteriological, etc., or on one passage or another, that we fail to see how it all works together.

Context means more than just the verses before and after any particular verse. It also has to do with the book, its writer, and the time of its publication, AND the whole counsel of Scripture.

It's not just a bunch of loosely related ideas; it's a system that functions perfectly. The Bible is the Book of the Covenant.

Blessings all,
cm

HIS
02-03-02, 11:23 PM
Are you two suggesting the the Old Covenant did not end at the death (sacrifice) of Christ?

Odyssey
02-04-02, 04:37 AM
HIS,

No. It did not. And here's why:

Heb. 8.6-13. 'But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. For finding fault with them, He says, "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH; NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD. FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM UPON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, ‘KNOW THE LORD,’ FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE." When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.'

Notice again the last verse: 'But whatever is becoming obsolete (present tense) and growing old (present tense) is ready to disappear.' The OC System wasn't obsolete yet. It still had a purpose. It's 'last days' started with the ministry of John the Baptist and its final end would not be for a little while longer. It still had power over the people of Israel. As long as it remained, it would be the power of sin: 'The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law' (1Cor. 15.56).

Grace to you,

jak

countrymouse
02-04-02, 08:37 AM
Jesus himself said this:



Matthew 5:
17. "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19. "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others {to do} the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches {them,} he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Notice that "heaven and earth" had to pass away before the slightest requirement of the OC Law would pass away. But only while the temple still existed could all these statutes still be carried out.



Hebrews 9
8. The Holy Spirit {is} signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing,
9. which {is} a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience,
10. since they {relate} only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.


The forty years between Christ's ascension and the destruction of the temple were a time of upheaval and transition. Yes, Christ had perfectly fulfilled all the requirements of the OC Law on behalf of believers. But unbelieving Jews were still under the Law, and were judged according to it. Even believing Jews continued to observe the Law during that time; they did agree, however, not to place its yoke on the shoulders of gentile believers.

In 70AD, the temple burned; that was God's destruction of the OC "heaven and earth." It meant that the old covenant polity had ended, that the old covenant had been replaced. We inherited a new and better covenant with better promises, the kingdom of heaven!



Hebrews 8:
6. But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

HIS
02-07-02, 02:46 AM
countrymouse and Odyssey,

So...Do I understand correctly that you are suggesting that BOTH Old and New Covenants were "active together" for approximately 40 years after the death of Christ?

countrymouse
02-07-02, 09:17 AM
Hi, HIS:

Those forty years were a time of transition between the two covenants. Both Jesus and the apostles spoke as though the new covenant was almost but not completely in place yet.


Luke 21
28. "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

This is from the Olivet discourse, as Luke recorded it. It implied that redemption would not be fulfilled (complete) until Christ's return.


Ephesians 1
13. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14. who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God's own} possession, to the praise of His glory.

There are many other passages as well, that indicate salvation was not yet complete during that time. It was assured, but not yet fulfilled. Those forty years were foreshadowed by the forty years Israel spent in the wilderness on the way to Canaan.


There are also several references that tell us the old covenant was in the process of fading away at that time.


Hebrews 8
7. For if that first {covenant} had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8. For finding fault with them, He says, "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9. NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10. "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11. "AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12. "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."
13. When He said, "A new {covenant,}" He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.



Hebrews 9
8. The Holy Spirit {is} signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing,
9. which {is} a symbol for the present time.


1 Corinthians 2
6. Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;


1 Corinthians 7
31. and those who use the world, as though they did not make full use of it; for the form of this world is passing away.


1 John 2
8. On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining.


There are many references to the "last days," and the "last day." All of them refer to the passing of the old covenant polity, which ended with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, with its sacrifices and priesthood.


Blessings to you,
cm

Odyssey
02-07-02, 10:43 AM
HIS,

Yes, if you want to call it that, they were 'active together.' Paul made this plain in 1Cor. 10.1-11:

'For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness. Now these things happened as examples for us, that we should not crave evil things, as they also craved. And do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, "THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY." Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.'

This is really key. Paul was stating that the exodus was an 'example' of what the first century church was going through. It was a 'poetic image' if you will. Why is this important? We find out answer in Joshua 5.1-9:

' Now it came about when all the kings of the Amorites who were beyond the Jordan to the west, and all the kings of the Canaanites who were by the sea, heard how the LORD had dried up the waters of the Jordan before the sons of Israel until they had crossed, that their hearts melted, and there was no spirit in them any longer, because of the sons of Israel. At that time the LORD said to Joshua, "Make for yourself flint knives and circumcise again the sons of Israel the second time." So Joshua made himself flint knives and circumcised the sons of Israel at Gibeath-haaraloth. And this is the reason why Joshua circumcised them: all the people who came out of Egypt who were males, all the men of war, died in the wilderness along the way, after they came out of Egypt. For all the people who came out were circumcised, but all the people who were born in the wilderness along the way as they came out of Egypt had not been circumcised. For the sons of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, until all the nation, that is, the men of war who came out of Egypt, perished because they did not listen to the voice of the LORD, to whom the LORD had sworn that He would not let them see the land which the LORD had sworn to their fathers to give us, a land flowing with milk and honey. And their children whom He raised up in their place, Joshua circumcised; for they were uncircumcised, because they had not circumcised them along the way. Now it came about when they had finished circumcising all the nation, that they remained in their places in the camp until they were healed. Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Today I have rolled away the reproach of Egypt from you." So the name of that place is called Gilgal to this day.'

There are two things here: First, the people who were born during the exodus were 'uncircumcised;' they were without covenant. Second, only after they were circumcised did god say, 'Today (not 40 years before when they left Egypt) I have rolled away the reproach of Egypt from you.' In other words, they were still in bondage to Egypt! This was Paul's point in 1Cor. 10. Even though the first century church deliverance from bondage started at the cross, they were still in bondage until the OC system (i.e., Egypt) was removed. This took place at the parousia in AD 70. At that point, their (and subsequently our) salvation was complete. Peter wrote:

'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls' (1Pet. 1.3-9).

Add this to what is written in Hebrews, 'And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him' (9.27-28), we see that it is very important that Christ is already come for he completed salvation for us at that point.

Grace to you,

jak

HIS
02-08-02, 04:53 AM
CM and Odyssey,

Please consider the following verses. All verses are from the KJV of the Bible. The words in paren ( ) are the words used within these verses from the NIV:

Heb 9:16 For where a testament (will) is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator (the one who made it).

Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force (only) after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all (it never takes effect) while the testator liveth.

Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated (was not put into effect) without blood.

Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Then, moving to Chapter 10:

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away (sets aside) the first, that he may establish the second.

Statement: It seems to me that the writer here is suggesting that both covenants required the shedding of blood to initiate or set into motion or effect. It also seems clear that in chapter 10:9 that the Old Covenant was “taken away” or set aside “first” that he may establish (bring into existence or effect) the second.

How?

By the shedding of blood…right?

Whose blood?

The blood of Christ on the cross…right?

***************

Now, regarding Heb 8:13:

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Note: Why couldn’t this verse above simply mean or suggest that some believers (including some of the apostles) were still “holding on” to some of the OC traditions that were of NO EFFECT.

In other words, as far as God was concerned, these OC observances that some still thought or assumed they needed to keep (i.e., circumcision) were no longer effective (within the NC plan) according to God’s will. It’s as though the people were still transitioning themselves out of these traditions and eventually getting completely away from them as the Holy Spirit continued to lead them out of them.

Acts 10 (Peter’s vision and the store of Cornelius) is a good example of this…

This would seem to be no different than when someone comes to God today and they take days, or months, or even years to “submit” themselves to the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit AND truly walk in the way God wants them to walk -- according to the true gospel of Christ.

I really don’t see the connection with the destruction of the temple as correlating with the end of the Old Covenant. NOT if you are referring to the “salvation” aspects of the Law. If you are only referring to “prophetic events” not yet fulfilled by the Law, then that is a different story and I can understand some of your thoughts.

The death of Christ on the cross and His resurrection from the dead assured us of the hope we have today. The Old Covenant required the blood of animals to make atonement for sin. When the veil in the temple was torn in two (split down the middle) this seems to be when Old Covenant means of redemption was done away with and replaced with the true image (that of Christ).

The gospel of Christ became the only means of salvation from that point on.

Would you not agree?

Odyssey: You state the following: “Even though the first century church deliverance from bondage started at the cross, they were still in bondage until the OC system (i.e., Egypt) was removed. This took place at the parousia in AD 70. At that point, their (and subsequently our) salvation was complete.”

First, (in your posting) you point out how that the children of Israel were, “all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea” and then you tie that in (very nicely) with the commandment to be circumcised in order to “roll away the reproach of Egypt.”

Aren’t you forgetting something here?

NEW testament “baptism” represents those types, examples, or shadows of what you just described above! To me, this is why (A) Jesus stated that they should “wait” for the promise of the father (the Holy Ghost) and (B) commanded that everyone should be baptized in his name beginning in Jerusalem.

These commandments were a part of the NEW gospel message that was going to take his disciples OUT of the Old Covenant relationship and INTO the New Covenant relationship with God.

You cannot have two covenants active at the same time.

Consider this in the natural, does anyone have two wills that have completely different conditions “active” at the same time? You cannot have two covenant wills active at the same time. If you did, they would both be considered void. This is why you saw Jesus tell those who were healed to go and do as the “law of Moses” commanded after he healed them. Until the death of Christ they were still under the law of Moses.

But, not after he rose again…

From that point forward, we had a NEW Commission for a NEW Covenant.

thanks, and grace and blessings to you both
HIS


p.s. I know I have not addressed all of your questions. CM...I'm sorry I didn't get to your remarks either. Maybe I will have time to address them soon.

Odyssey
02-08-02, 07:28 AM
HIS,

There is only one problem with you explination of Hebrews 8. The subject was not people holding onto the OC system, but the system itself. Notice again the passage, ' In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away' (KJV). Again, the subject is the covenantal system, not the people.

You are correct in that the covenants were established with shedding of blood. However, there can be two covenants 'active' at the same time. Paul wrote:

'Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise' (Gal. 3.15-18).

Here we see that the Law or Mosaic covenant came 430 years after the making of the Abrahamic covenant. The Abrahamic covenant was not over when the Mosaic covenant was established. In fact, the Mosaic covenant was established during the Abrahamic covenant. That was Paul's point. Just because god established the Law, the Mosaic covenant did not make the Abrahamic covenant null and void.

Furthermore, you are correct that the NC was established with the death of Christ. And that is what the writer of Hebrews was striving to prove. The passages you quoted show this. However, in the realm of people, in all appearances, the OC was still in effect. But in the mind and heart of god it was over. It was decaying. It was 'ready to vanish away.' That is what the HS was relaying to the apostles and the first century church. Through the eyes of the 'natural' man, they could still see the temple, the sacrificial system, the priests, the Law, the holy days, etc. but Paul and the rest of the apostles were stating, '...walk by faith, not by sight' (2Cor. 5.7).

Grace to you,

jak

countrymouse
02-08-02, 08:55 AM
HIS,

Jesus' death on the cross ratified the new covenant, made it legitimate. We have to remember that the Messianic kingdom was first promised right after Adam and Eve fell from grace. God repeated his promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and to the prophets.

As per the scriptures I previously posted, during the forty years between Christ's sacrifice and the destruction of the temple, believers had a ratified covenant, but they were still waiting to fully inherit it. They were still looking for the kingdom.

In 70 AD, the earthly Jerusalem, the Jerusalem of the Law of Moses, passed away. That event clearly meant that the Mosaic system was no longer acceptable to God, and had been superceded, replaced. We know it meant the end of the old covenant because the Messiah had come and ratified the New Covenant. Once the earthly Jerusalem, represented by Sinai and Hagar, passed away, she had to be replaced by the heavenly Jerusalem, represented by Sarah and Isaac, the son of the promise. Otherwise, God would not have a covenant community on earth. We would still be waiting to inherit the promise, a new covenant ratified by Jesus' blood, but not yet put into effect.


Revelation 5
1. I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.
2. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?"
3. And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.
4. Then I {began} to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it;
5. and one of the elders *said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals."
6. And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
7. And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
8. When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9. And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood {men} from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10. "You have made them {to be} a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."


If this has not happened, the kingdom has not come, and we have believed a false gospel.


God's first promise to Abraham was that God would bless all the nations on earth through Abraham's offspring. Abraham believed God, and he was found righteous. God's covenant with Abraham was conditional, and the condition was circumcision. The reward was the geographical land of Canaan for his descendants. The Law of Moses was added later, because of transgressions. The promises of the old covenant were earthly: long life, success, health, national autonomy. The New Covenant promises are spiritual: eternal life, peace with God, with ourselves, and with each other. Our condition is belief, and regeneration makes it our nature to believe. The old covenant was not effectual; all of the people broke it. Our covenant is 100% effectual. We will stumble, but none of us will fall.


Again, don't just look at the trees; back up and see the forest.


Blessings,
cm

countrymouse
02-08-02, 02:22 PM
Let me try saying it another way:

Christ had presented his acceptable sacrifice in heaven, through which he had taken care of sin. But salvation was not yet complete.


Hebrews 9
28. so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without {reference to} sin, to those who eagerly await Him

Sin was not the only aspect of salvation. Its two other facets were judgment and defeat of the enemy, Satan. Making a contract obselete requires a legal procedure. The destruction of the temple by fire in 70AD was the earthly sign that God had indeed held court. Nero's death, the civil war, Vespasian's victory over Jerusalem, and the survival of the church were also earthly signs of Satan's defeat.

Remember also that John the Baptist had warned the people that God was about to judge them, saying that he had already laid the axe at the root of the trees (in Matthew 3). Jesus (Matthew 16:27-28) said that some of his listeners would still be alive when he returned with his angels to reward everyone according to their deeds. Eternal life being a gift, not a payment earned, we know that this judgment had to be an Old Covenant judgment. We know from Peter's first sermon and from many other passages that those were the last days of the Old Covenant age. They couldn't have been the last days of anything else! Israel was judged under the conditions of the Old Covenant, but a remnant was spared through the New Covenant so that God could keep his promises; he'd made those promises to Israel (Jeremiah 31, et al).

Satan's defeat was the first promise related to the New Covenant that was recorded in Scripture. Satan, the enemy, had buffeted Israel in two ways. First, the Old Covenant was ineffectual; nobody could manage to keep it! It could not give eternal life through the blood of animals. Second, while Israel remained a geo-political kingdom, she was always threatened by political enemies (Satan's seed). God used them to punish her idolatry by subjecting her to their rule many times. Israel's New Covenant is 100% effectual; Satan cannot snatch any believer out of God's hand. And, since Israel is no longer a geo-political kingdom, but is now a spiritual one, she is subject to no earthly authority. Satan's futility has been on public display ever since the church survived the Neronic and Jewish persecutions of her first 40 years and entered the promised land, the New Jerusalem. The old Jerusalem passed away, and the New Jerusalem descended to earth; God dwells among his people, having fulfilled his heart's desire! Praise be to God!


Blessings,
cm

HIS
02-09-02, 11:16 PM
Give me a few days to digest all of this...

thanks

countrymouse
02-10-02, 04:44 AM
Sure thing!

cm

countrymouse
03-15-02, 07:00 PM
It's been quite a while since we've visited together on this thread. Given that, on page 1, we established that Jesus made statements regarding the time frame for his parousia, I'd like to post some passages regarding God's faithfulness as presented in Scripture. I think this is extremely important, since I have encountered more than one claim (mainly on other websites) that God could have simply changed his mind.




NAS Deuteronomy 7:9
9. "Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

NAS Deuteronomy 32:4
4. "The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

NAS Psalms 30:9
9. "What profit is there in my blood, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise You? Will it declare Your faithfulness?

NAS Psalms 33:4
4. For the word of the LORD is upright, And all His work is {done} in faithfulness.

NAS Psalms 36:5
5. Your lovingkindness, O LORD, extends to the heavens, Your faithfulness {reaches} to the skies.

NAS Psalms 88:11
11. Will Your lovingkindness be declared in the grave, Your faithfulness in Abaddon?

NAS Psalms 89:1-2
A 1. I will sing of the lovingkindness of the LORD forever; To all generations I will make known Your faithfulness with my mouth.
2. For I have said, "Lovingkindness will be built up forever; In the heavens You will establish Your faithfulness."

NAS Psalms 89:5
5. The heavens will praise Your wonders, O LORD; Your faithfulness also in the assembly of the holy ones.

NAS Psalms 89:8
8. O LORD God of hosts, who is like You, O mighty LORD? Your faithfulness also surrounds You.

NAS Psalms 91:4
4. He will cover you with His pinions, And under His wings you may seek refuge; His faithfulness is a shield and bulwark.

NAS Psalms 100:5
5. For the LORD is good; His lovingkindness is everlasting And His faithfulness to all generations.

NAS Psalms 119:86
86. All Your commandments are faithful; They have persecuted me with a lie; help me!

NAS Psalms 119:89-90
89. Forever, O LORD, Your word is settled in heaven.
90. Your faithfulness {continues} throughout all generations; You established the earth, and it stands.

NAS Isaiah 25:1
1. O LORD, You are my God; I will exalt You, I will give thanks to Your name; For You have worked wonders, Plans {formed} long ago, with perfect faithfulness.

NAS Isaiah 49:7
7. Thus says the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel {and} its Holy One, To the despised One, To the One abhorred by the nation, To the Servant of rulers, "Kings will see and arise, Princes will also bow down, Because of the LORD who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel who has chosen You."

NAS Lamentations 3:22-23
22. The LORD'S lovingkindnesses indeed never cease, For His compassions never fail.
23. {They} are new every morning; Great is Your faithfulness.

NAS Romans 3:3
3. What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

NAS 1 Corinthians 1:9
9. God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

NAS 1 Corinthians 10:13
13. No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

NAS 2 Corinthians 1:18
8. But as God is faithful, our word to you is not yes and no.

NAS 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23. Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24. Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

NAS 2 Thessalonians 3:3
3. But the Lord is faithful, and He will strengthen and protect you from the evil {one.}

NAS 2 Timothy 2:13
3. If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

NAS Hebrews 10:23
23. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;

NAS 1 Peter 4:19
19. Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.

NAS 1 John 1:9
9. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

NAS Revelation 1:5
5. and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness,

NAS Revelation 19:11
11. And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it {is} called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.

countrymouse
03-15-02, 07:03 PM
Let's also look at how God feels about keeping his word:


AS Isaiah 41:21-24
21. "Present your case," the LORD says. "Bring forward your strong {arguments,}" The King of Jacob says.
22. Let them bring forth and declare to us what is going to take place; As for the former {events,} declare what they {were,} That we may consider them and know their outcome. Or announce to us what is coming;
23. Declare the things that are going to come afterward, That we may know that you are gods; Indeed, do good or evil, that we may anxiously look about us and fear together.
24. Behold, you are of no account, And your work amounts to nothing; He who chooses you is an abomination.

NAS Isaiah 41:25-26
25. "I have aroused one from the north, and he has come; From the rising of the sun he will call on My name; And he will come upon rulers as {upon} mortar, Even as the potter treads clay."
26. Who has declared {this} from the beginning, that we might know? Or from former times, that we may say, "{He is} right!"? Surely there was no one who declared, Surely there was no one who proclaimed, Surely there was no one who heard your words.

NAS Isaiah 44:7-8
7. 'Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; Yes, let him recount it to Me in order, From the time that I established the ancient nation. And let them declare to them the things that are coming And the events that are going to take place.
8. 'Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced {it} to you and declared {it?} And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any {other} Rock? I know of none.' "

NAS Isaiah 45:21
21. "Declare and set forth {your case;} Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.

NAS Isaiah 45:23-25
23. "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear {allegiance.}
24. "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
25. "In the LORD all the offspring of Israel Will be justified and will glory."

NAS Isaiah 46:9-10
9. "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; {I am} God, and there is no one like Me,
10. Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

NAS Isaiah 48:3-7
3. "I declared the former things long ago And they went forth from My mouth, and I proclaimed them. Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass.
4. "Because I know that you are obstinate, And your neck is an iron sinew And your forehead bronze,
5. Therefore I declared {them} to you long ago, Before they took place I proclaimed {them} to you, So that you would not say, 'My idol has done them, And my graven image and my molten image have commanded them.'
6. "You have heard; look at all this. And you, will you not declare it? I proclaim to you new things from this time, Even hidden things which you have not known.
7. "They are created now and not long ago; And before today you have not heard them, So that you will not say, 'Behold, I knew them.'

NAS Isaiah 55:10-11
10. "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, And do not return there without watering the earth And making it bear and sprout, And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
11. So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding {in the matter} for which I sent it.

NAS Matthew 24:35
35. "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Odyssey
05-27-02, 07:30 AM
I think one of the most important passages is given to us in Ezekiel. There god said:

Ezekiel 12.21-28. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, "Son of man, what is this proverb you people have concerning the land of Israel, saying, 'The days are long and every vision fails'? Therefore say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "I will make this proverb cease so that they will no longer use it as a proverb in Israel." But tell them, "The days draw near as well as the fulfillment of every vision. For there will no longer be any false vision or flattering divination within the house of Israel. For I the LORD will speak, and whatever word I speak will be performed. It will no longer be delayed, for in your days, O rebellious house, I will speak the word and perform it," declares the Lord GOD.' " Furthermore, the word of the LORD came to me, saying, "Son of man, behold, the house of Israel is saying, 'The vision that he sees is for many years from now, and he prophesies of times far off.' "Therefore say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "None of My words will be delayed any longer. Whatever word I speak will be performed," ' " declares the Lord GOD.

I think that is pretty much what many believe about the time statements in the NT. We see that god takes a different approach about them.

Grace to you,

jak

disciple
05-29-02, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by Odyssey
John 6.39-40. ' "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." '

John 6.44. ' "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." '

John 6.54. ' "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." '

John 11.24. 'Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." ' (With this statement from Martha, the concept of the 'last day' must have been a popular Jewish thought.)

John 12.48. ' "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." '
how does this apply today? have we already been rasied up or were we raise up before we were born if the last day was 70AD? how do the continuing fulfillments fit into these statements?

Odyssey
05-29-02, 04:04 PM
disciple,

I believe that the resurrection deals with a soteriological issue. That is, the resurrection had to with the completion of salvation. The way that this continues today is that we do not have to wait for our salvation to be finished--that was done in 70.

Grace to you,

jak

disciple
05-30-02, 10:40 AM
but how were we raised up then? it just doesn't seem possible to fit these statements into 70AD. how were we raised up and resurrected before we even existed? it just doesn't seem grammatically possible for anyone after 70AD if you take it that way.

John 6.39-40. ' "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." '
beholds and believes present tense but raising up and last day was future when spoken and past tense now? doesn't fit.

John 6.44. ' "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." '
draws him is present tense and raising and last day was future when spoken and past tense for us now. again doesn't really work grammatically and i don't think can be applied in our lives.


John 12.48. ' "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." '
were we or were all the nations judged at 70AD? i thought that 70AD was a judgment on Israel. in what sense was i judged in 70AD? how were the nations gathered and separated (mt 25)?

davo
05-30-02, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by disciple
were we or were all the nations judged at 70AD? i thought that 70AD was a judgment on Israel. in what sense was i judged in 70AD? how were the nations gathered and separated (mt 25)?

Wasn't humanities "Sin and Death" the primary focus of judgment in Jerusalems' fall? -and consequently humanities restoration i.e., being joined to the commonwealth of Israel "according to, or in the Spirit."

As for the "nations" -"some" OT scriptures speak of the tribes of Israel in terms of nations.

davo

Odyssey
05-31-02, 04:11 AM
Good points, davo. Also, with the influx of Gentiles into the family, there was the judgments of other nations as well.

Grace to you,

jak

disciple
06-25-02, 04:30 PM
sorry davo this doesn't really answer my question. we have a judgment on Israel in 70AD as jesus words clearly indicate in mt 24 et al. how is this also a judgment of all the nations and a separating of the sheep from goats? i can't seem to fit mt 25 into the schema you all are proposing.

hoonbaba
07-08-02, 07:12 AM
Hi,

I just thought I'd share my thoughts on this =)

The new testament uses (at least) two words for 'nations'. One of them is 'Ethnos' (Strong's #1484) which commonly refers to the gentiles, and the other is Phule (Strong's #5443) which refers to the the tribes of Israel.

'Phule' appears in 23 verses in the New Testament, and I'll list all the verses here. In every case, the word refers to the tribes of Israel:

Matt 19:28 - And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matt 24:30 - And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Luke 2:36 - And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

Luke 22:30 - That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 13:21 - And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.

Romans 11:1 - I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Philippians 3:5 - Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Hebrews 7:13 - For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

Hebrews 7:14 - For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

James 1:1 - James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Rev 1:7 - Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Rev 5:5 - And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Rev 5:9 - And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 7:4 - And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 7:5 - Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:6 - Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:7 - Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:8 - Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:9 - After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 7:11 - And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Rev 13:7 - And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev 14:6 - And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people

Rev 21:12 - And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel

Many object that verses like Rev 1:7, Rev 5:9, Rev 7:9, Rev 7:11, Rev 13:7, and Rev 14:6 is referring to everyone since it says 'kindred', however, when we look at Young's Literal translation we see that the word 'tribe' is used in all those verses so I think it's consistent with all the other passages. Furthermore, Rev 1:7 looks to be a quotation of Zech 12:10.

Compare this:

Rev 1:7 - Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

With this:

Zech 12:10 - And I have poured on the house of David, And on the inhabitant of Jerusalem, A spirit of grace and supplications, And they have looked unto Me whom they pierced, And they have mourned over it, Like a mourning over the only one, And they have been in bitterness for it, Like a bitterness over the first-born.

And the context (Zech 12:10-14) makes it clear that those who are mourning are the people of Israel.

As for ethnos, I really haven't studied it much, and so I don't really know much about it. But I'll just share what I've come across so far. The word phrase 'all nations' appears in Matt 25:32. (all as in 'pas', and nations as in 'ethnos'). And the word 'pas' (all) isn't always understood as we might think. The following was take from this online bible site (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3956&version=):

... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has notrestricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...

Now let's look at some of the verses that say 'all nations'

Matt 25:32 - And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats

Mark 13:10 - And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

Matt 24:14 - And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matt 24:9 - Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Matt 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 2:9 - And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Rom 1:5 - By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Rom 16:26 - But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith

Based on these verses, we can conclude that Matt 25:32's use of 'all nations' may not be referring to the entire global world, but rather the Roman world, since Matt 24:14 says the gospel would be preached to the 'world' (gk. oikoumene, which clearly refers to the roman world/empire). That would explain why Apostle Paul apparently believed the gospel was preached to all the 'world' (Rom 10:18, Rom 16:25-26 Col 1:23)

Hopefully that may help a bit. :)

-Jason