PDA

View Full Version : What happened when Adam fell?



Brandan
12-17-06, 08:32 AM
What happened when Adam fell?

A) All of creation changed in a single moment and death entered the world.
B) Little changed except for the fact that Adam came to know who he was.

MCoving
12-17-06, 11:40 AM
Well as yet this is another idea that I used to believe in: that when Adam sinned everything in the world changed in a single moment and death entered. It was like that moment was the most powerful thing, the thing that changed everything. Something that wasn't planned by God or that happened only because of Adam alone and not Gods working behind the scenes. Its something that has always been taught since I was a child. Wasn't until sometime in Mayish of this year that I began thinking about this topic, and it was brought up at the conference as well. Course when someone challenges you, you start to read everything you can to see which one is right. I found some very interesting verses on the subject and now believe that what I was taught wasn't quite biblical. That it is more biblical to say that little changed except the fact that Adam came to know who he was.

The first main idea I think is perspective. Are we looking thru mans perspective on this issue, Adams perspective. If we look at it that way, through only what one would know through experience, it does seem like in that very moment when Adam sinned that everything changed and death entered the world. Does seem like from that perspective that one mans fall changed the outcome of everything.

However, there's another perspective that is more biblical that is Gods perspective. From God's perspective did this single event change everything? I'd say no. Because nothing gets by God.. God predetermined Adams fall. From Gods perspective nothing changed except that Adam realized who he was, which was still determined by God yet it was a change for Adam. I believe that Adam may have been blameless before tasting of the apple but that he already had that sinful nature in him. And when he disobeyed God he realized that their was the ability in him to sin. He realized his depravity and his need for a savior. God had this fall, had Christ being the savior all planned out from the foundations of the World. And our God does not change! Death didn't just all of sudden come about because one man sinned.. no death was going to happen, God had decreed that and that Christ would bring life. So NOTHING changed in God's perspective!! Death wasn't a change.. death was going to happen, even if that was not perceived by human eyes.

Here's some verses that I've read over and over to help understand these points:

Read all of Ezekiel 28, but specifically here's a passage for any of those quick readers on the forum:
Now before this it talks about in Ezekiel 28:13 "You were in Eden, the garden of God" just for some context background

Ezekiel 28:15 " You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you"
..so unrighteousness was found in Adam, it was already there just hadn't manifested itself. Also other verses in NT talk about how no man is good, only God is good.. thus all men are sinners from the beginning. Just like Satan was a murderer from the beginning.

About God's immutability:
Malachi 3:6 " 'For I, the Lord, do not change...' " God doesn't change.. thus why would His creation change? His plans change? This was all planned from beginnning nothing changed here.. not even Adams disposition he was unrighteous from the beginning Adam just didn't know that till he sinned. Duh! Perspectives here.. God knew Adam was created a sinner, yet blameless till he sinned... Adam pry thought he was all perfect and such, and it was his sin that determined the fall, though rather God did. :D

And about how things were determined before the foundations of the world:
Eph 1:4, (NASB) (http://bible.5solas.org/bible.php?view=1&version=nasb&book=49&chapter=1&verse1=4&verse2=&ascdesc=&abrv=1&strip=0&converge=0&footnotes=0&createchaps=1&compare=0&andor=0&restrict=&startbook=&endbook=&references=&highlight=1&chaplinks=&remove=&keywords=foundation), just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Heb 4:3, (NASB) (http://bible.5solas.org/bible.php?view=1&version=nasb&book=58&chapter=4&verse1=3&verse2=&ascdesc=&abrv=1&strip=0&converge=0&footnotes=0&createchaps=1&compare=0&andor=0&restrict=&startbook=&endbook=&references=&highlight=1&chaplinks=&remove=&keywords=foundation), For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "As I swore in My wrath, They shall not enter My rest," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:8, (NASB) (http://bible.5solas.org/bible.php?view=1&version=nasb&book=66&chapter=13&verse1=8&verse2=&ascdesc=&abrv=1&strip=0&converge=0&footnotes=0&createchaps=1&compare=0&andor=0&restrict=&startbook=&endbook=&references=&highlight=1&chaplinks=&remove=&keywords=foundation), All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

I think its cool when it says that God's works were finished from the foundation of the world. Before the world began God's works were done. Its hard to grasp that concept for humans.. but its true all was finished, thus Adams fall didn't change one ioda of a thing. God didn't change anything that He had finished from the foundations of the world.

I hope this has given a little bit of ideas to chew upon, a few verses to read over, and sure others may come from this. This is just my understanding of it, my understanding that God has given me. Gods been teaching me alot, yet I still dont know much.. for there is always something to learn and grow in. Especially in applying the truths to my life, to my walk. Thanks for listening! Have a good day

Mary

Bob Higby
12-17-06, 01:35 PM
There are just two main differences between Adam and Eve's situation in the garden and what came about afterward:

1. Human death had not yet been witnessed. The couple were under an arrangement of 'continued life' as long as they obeyed the one law they were given. As long as they partook of the tree of life, their mortal bodies (subject to death as much as anyone's body today) would be kept from dying.

So when Paul states that through the sin of one man death entered the world, he is strictly referring to human death and not the death of plant or animal life.

2. They were placed in a garden paradise that insulated them from the elements in the outside world that cause physical suffering.

Outside of these two differences, there is nothing in the Bible to lead us to believe that the material world was substantially or essentially different than it has been ever since. God put the shadow creation in subjection to decay from the start so that it would groan for the real, true, first, and final creation!

Bob Higby
12-17-06, 01:57 PM
Another point: many stretch the fact that God called his creation 'good' to imply that the world was originally created in ontological perfection. In answer to this:

1. The earth is still God's good or 'very good' creation today. The evil in the world can never destroy the goodness that God invested in it from the beginning. The Psalmist and other biblical writers refer to the world in its present state a wondrous place full of the Lord's glory and blessing, even in midst of physical disasters (Ps. 19, 29, 77, 97, 135 are some examples).

2. The earth is perfect in relation to God's purposes!

Forester07
12-17-06, 02:00 PM
Here are some verses to consider.


Genesis 3:17-19 And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

In this verse it says that the ground is cursed. Usually when God curses somthing then there are serious consequences to what is being cursed. It seems to me that the the second option "little changed except for the fact that Adam came to know who he was." is not taking the full extent of what scripture is saying.


Romans 8:19-23 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Depending on if you see creation in these verses refering to man alone or all of creation you can see that Paul is showing implications that would go further than just knowing oneself. I shall study some more and then decide which choice is more correct.

James

Forester07
12-17-06, 09:34 PM
Here is another verse that is interesting.

Gen 5:28-29 When Lamech had lived 182 years, he fathered a son and called his name Noah, saying, "Out of the ground that the LORD has cursed this one shall bring us relief from our work and from the painful toil of our hands."

Cursed:
H779

ָאַרר
’ārar: A verb generally denoting to inflict with a curse. There are at least five other Hebrew verbs with the same general meaning. This verb, in a more specific sense, means to bind (with a spell); to hem in with obstacles; to render powerless to resist. It is sometimes used as an antonym of bāraḵ (H1288). In Genesis 3, God renders curses on the serpent, the woman, and the man for their sins in the Garden of Eden. To the serpent, God says, "Cursed are you more than all cattle, and more than every beast of the field" (Gen_3:14 NASB), meaning that the serpent would be the lowest of all animals. Then to the man, God says, "Cursed is the ground because of you," meaning that he would have difficulties in producing food from the soil. In Num_22:6, King Balak of Moab asks Balaam to curse the Israelites. His desire is for the Israelites to be immobilized or rendered impotent so he can defeat them, his superior enemy.

Gills Commentary:
cursed is the ground for thy sake; the whole earth, which was made for man, and all things in it, of which he had the possession and dominion, and might have enjoyed the use of everything in it, with comfort and pleasure; that which was man's greatest earthly blessing is now turned into a curse by sin, which is a proof of the exceeding sinfulness of it, and its just demerit: so in later instances, a "fruitful land" is turned "into barrenness, for the wickedness of them that dwell therein", Psa_107:34 hence, whenever there is sterility in a country, a want of provisions, a famine, it should always be imputed to sin; and this should put us in mind of the sin of the first man, and the consequence of that:

I still can't see option B. If some of you who chose option B explain why that would be great. Later.

MCoving
12-18-06, 02:50 AM
Just a quick thought.. forester was saying he couldn't see the second choice well what about the first? It says "all of creation changed in a moment". Did ALL of creation really change? Was it not that way before, but yet at time of Adams disobeying God.. that God revealed to them that they would have to toil the earth? That God revealed to them His plan to curse the ground? Where does it say before that Adam and Even would never have to toil the ground, never have to experience pain? Where does it say before that things all changed because of Adam? I dont think things changed.. God knew what would happen. He knew he would curse the earth, that Adam would toil the soil, that Eve would have pain in childbirth.. He knew that He would tell Adam and Eve that the ground is cursed because of their disobedience.

I really don't see how ALL things changed?? Seems they all stayed the same to me.. just were REVEALED to humans..

Mary

Machaira
12-18-06, 07:00 AM
Just a quick thought.. forester was saying he couldn't see the second choice well what about the first? It says "all of creation changed in a moment". Did ALL of creation really change? Was it not that way before, but yet at time of Adams disobeying God.. that God revealed to them that they would have to toil the earth? That God revealed to them His plan to curse the ground? Where does it say before that Adam and Even would never have to toil the ground, never have to experience pain? Where does it say before that things all changed because of Adam? I dont think things changed.. God knew what would happen. He knew he would curse the earth, that Adam would toil the soil, that Eve would have pain in childbirth.. He knew that He would tell Adam and Eve that the ground is cursed because of their disobedience.

I really don't see how ALL things changed?? Seems they all stayed the same to me.. just were REVEALED to humans..

Mary

I don't think that there is any question that God knew what would happen. It wasn't merely "revealed" when Adam fell because it simply wasn't a present situation before the fall. I don't see that as being the original question anyway. The question was, "What happened when Adam fell? The problem with option "a" is what exactly constitutes "all?" We certainly know from Genesis that at least "some" things changed. That can't be denied.

lionovjudah
12-18-06, 07:16 AM
Just a quick thought.. forester was saying he couldn't see the second choice well what about the first? It says "all of creation changed in a moment". Did ALL of creation really change? Was it not that way before, but yet at time of Adams disobeying God.. that God revealed to them that they would have to toil the earth? That God revealed to them His plan to curse the ground? Where does it say before that Adam and Even would never have to toil the ground, never have to experience pain? Where does it say before that things all changed because of Adam? I dont think things changed.. God knew what would happen. He knew he would curse the earth, that Adam would toil the soil, that Eve would have pain in childbirth.. He knew that He would tell Adam and Eve that the ground is cursed because of their disobedience.

I really don't see how ALL things changed?? Seems they all stayed the same to me.. just were REVEALED to humans..

Mary

Unless this is another "hidden" agenda question regarding the immutability of God and His omniscience, this is not the issue Mary.

We cannot be "changeaphobic" when speaking of the bible. The question must simply be answered according to what is written, not about God's omniscience.

Biblical death is not recorded prior to the fall.

lionovjudah
12-18-06, 07:23 AM
13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203&version=31#fen-NIV-71a)] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."
16 To the woman he said,
[B]"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."




Unless I am amis, there is nothing remotely here about revealing what already was.

Brandan
12-18-06, 07:54 AM
So those that answered "A", please answer the following questions for me...

1) Did radioactive decay begin?
2) Did ANY cells in plants or animals die before Adam sinned?
3) Was there possible any death of any animal before Adam sinned?
4) Did the earth start spinning faster or slower?
5) Do you really think ALL of creation changed? What about the planet Mars?

Basically, when Adam sinned, he was kicked out of the G-A-R-D-E-N, and was forced into the outside world where all these things were not experienced by him.

Things may have gotten worse in the outside world over time, they may not have. The point of the question was, DID THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE CHANGE the moment Adam sinned? Did death of animal and plant life begin BECAUSE Adam sinned? Is the world we live in NOT GOOD?

I agree with Bob. The earth is perfect! It is perfectly made, and everything is perfect? Why? Because everything is going according to God's plan. The earth IS what it is meant to be.

Further, if the world did not change the moment Adam sinned, we can conclude that what believers will experience in their resurrection IS FAR GREATER THAN THE GARDEN OF EDEN! THE ELECT will have the pleasure to experience a new heavens and a new earth - not just a simple restoration of Eden.

huntington
12-18-06, 08:11 AM
What happened when Adam fell?

A) All of creation changed in a single moment and death entered the world.
B) Little changed except for the fact that Adam came to know who he was.
Personally, i find the concept that little changed except that Adam came to know who he was strange. A quick reading of Genesis chapter 3 suggests that much changed. God cursed the ground because of what Adam did, Eve would suffer as a result of her disobedience and death passed upon ALL MEN, because ALL MEN haved sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Adam and Eves's expulsion from the Garden of Eden changed much.
John Huntington.:confused:

lionovjudah
12-18-06, 08:25 AM
So those that answered "A", please answer the following questions for me...

1) Did radioactive decay begin?
2) Did ANY cells in plants or animals die before Adam sinned?
3) Was there possible any death of any animal before Adam sinned?
4) Did the earth start spinning faster or slower?
5) Do you really think ALL of creation changed? What about the planet Mars?

Basically, when Adam sinned, he was kicked out of the G-A-R-D-E-N, and was forced into the outside world where all these things were not experienced by him.

Things may have gotten worse in the outside world over time, they may not have. The point of the question was, DID THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE CHANGE the moment Adam sinned? Did death of animal and plant life begin BECAUSE Adam sinned? Is the world we live in NOT GOOD?

I agree with Bob. The earth is perfect! It is perfectly made, and everything is perfect? Why? Because everything is going according to God's plan. The earth IS what it is meant to be.

Further, if the world did not change the moment Adam sinned, we can conclude that what believers will experience in their resurrection IS FAR GREATER THAN THE GARDEN OF EDEN! THE ELECT will have the pleasure to experience a new heavens and a new earth - not just a simple restoration of Eden.

I dont know Brandan. Nothing is mentioned about these observations you are asking. What I do know is more happenned than option 2. Much more.

Also plant life is not the same as biblical death described in the writ.

Rlhuckle
12-18-06, 11:05 AM
Given the current course of the discussion and my own studies, I have to come down in the middle between the two answers and say "none of the above" until we come to a clearer definition of terms i.e.: All versus little. When God pronounces a curse--there are concrete ramifications to it. When God curses, is it merely a "little" thing? Scripture says no, it is not a "little" thing.

MCoving
12-18-06, 12:00 PM
Personally, i find the concept that little changed except that Adam came to know who he was strange. A quick reading of Genesis chapter 3 suggests that much changed. God cursed the ground because of what Adam did, Eve would suffer as a result of her disobedience and death passed upon ALL MEN, because ALL MEN haved sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Adam and Eves's expulsion from the Garden of Eden changed much.
John Huntington.:confused:

You are referencing that verse again that I posted about before.. death passing upon all men and all men sin and fall short of Gods glory is a verse in Romans 3 which again if you look closely is not referring to all men everywhere, every single person but only all of the elect.
The "all have sinned and fall short" is only talking about the elect. Course the death passed upon all men is in another verse.. let me find that. Okay the other verse is this one:
Rom 5:12, (NASB), Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

Now the question I first had was what does death mean here? is it just that the physical body dies, or is it something else? Maybe its spiritual death. I also found once again Bobs explanation very helpful on this verse, brings a new thought to this idea:



Rom. 5:12-14 (http://bible.5solas.org/bible.php?view=1&restrict=0&keywords=&startbook=0&endbook=0&references=0&andor=0&ascdesc=0&highlight=1&createchaps=1&abrv=1&book=rom&chapter=5&verse1=12&verse2=14&version=kjv)

Calvinist: Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men,{every person in the human race} because all {every person in the human race} sinned {uniquely in Adam, their substitute and federal head—who was the only perfect human being ever to rebel} – For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Alternate: Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men,{elect persons from all nations} because all {elect persons from all nations} sinned {in like manner as Adam their representative—who guaranteed in his act of rebellion what all of elect humanity would do} – For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

After much recent study, this new slant on Rom. 5:12-14 (http://bible.5solas.org/bible.php?view=1&restrict=0&keywords=&startbook=0&endbook=0&references=0&andor=0&ascdesc=0&highlight=1&createchaps=1&abrv=1&book=rom&chapter=5&verse1=12&verse2=14&version=kjv) is the position that I now hold on these verses. It stands in contrast to some statements that I have made in the past. Since the whole context of Paul in this entire section of Romans is justification, I do not believe that he reverts in any way to discussing sin as a phenomenon common to every member of physical humanity. He is focusing strictly on the plunging of the elect into sin, in preparation for their receipt of grace in Jesus Christ.

Thats some thoughts for right now.. I had others but I have to go back and read some posts because I lost what else I was thinking. I like these questions.. it really makes me think and stretch and grow. :)

Mary

wildboar
12-18-06, 12:40 PM
The Bible says that he would die in the day he ate of the fruit. It does not say he would become conscious of his own dying. I think it is likely that vegetative life did die or at least was consumed at some point but I don't believe that animal life did. I really don't know what was going on on Mars at that point. That is not the focus of Scripture. Scripture focuses on the change in creation on earth. To deny the dramatic effects of the fall that the Scripture promotes is to put your system above Scripture.

MCoving
12-18-06, 12:48 PM
So those that answered "A", please answer the following questions for me...

1) Did radioactive decay begin?
2) Did ANY cells in plants or animals die before Adam sinned?
3) Was there possible any death of any animal before Adam sinned?
4) Did the earth start spinning faster or slower?
5) Do you really think ALL of creation changed? What about the planet Mars?

Basically, when Adam sinned, he was kicked out of the G-A-R-D-E-N, and was forced into the outside world where all these things were not experienced by him.

Things may have gotten worse in the outside world over time, they may not have. The point of the question was, DID THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE CHANGE the moment Adam sinned? Did death of animal and plant life begin BECAUSE Adam sinned? Is the world we live in NOT GOOD?

I agree with Bob. The earth is perfect! It is perfectly made, and everything is perfect? Why? Because everything is going according to God's plan. The earth IS what it is meant to be.

Further, if the world did not change the moment Adam sinned, we can conclude that what believers will experience in their resurrection IS FAR GREATER THAN THE GARDEN OF EDEN! THE ELECT will have the pleasure to experience a new heavens and a new earth - not just a simple restoration of Eden.

Hey those are some good questions and makes me look upon this poll in a different way then my original post about perspectives or point of views. Though its still a good thought thinking about point of views (povs) from Gods pov nothing changed it was all determined to happen before the foundation of the world, even though he cursed the ground and there were consequences doesn't mean His plan changed or His creation/ the earth, stars, etc. From Adam's pov or mans pov a whole lot seemed to have changed cause you say the ground was cursed there was pain.. there was this and that that changed from when Adam and Eve were living in the Garden.

However aside from that about creation. The polls says:
A) All of creation changed in a single moment and death entered the world.
B) Little changed except for the fact that Adam came to know who he was.

What is creation?? Let's see what God says creation is:
Mk 10:6, (NASB) (http://bible.5solas.org/bible.php?view=1&version=nasb&book=41&chapter=10&verse1=6&verse2=&ascdesc=&abrv=1&strip=0&converge=0&footnotes=0&createchaps=1&compare=0&andor=0&restrict=&startbook=&endbook=&references=&highlight=1&chaplinks=&remove=&keywords=creation), "But from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female.

So creation just means what God created right? Here's a definition from a dictionary just in case someone wants it:
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna.html) - Cite This Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=creation&ia=luna)
cre·a·tion http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnghttp://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2 Fcreation)/kriˈeɪhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngʃən/Pronunciation Key (http://www.predestinarian.net/) - Show Spelled Pronunciation (http://www.predestinarian.net/)[kree-ey-shuhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngn]Pronunciation Key (http://www.predestinarian.net/) - Show IPA Pronunciation (http://www.predestinarian.net/)–noun 1.the act of producing or causing to exist; the act of creating; engendering. 2.the fact of being created. 3.something that is or has been created. 4.the Creation, the original bringing into existence of the universe by God. 5.the world; universe. 6.creatures collectively. 7.an original product of the mind, esp. an imaginative artistic work: the creations of a poetic genius. 8.a specially designed dress, hat, or other article of women's clothing, usually distinguished by imaginative or unique styling: the newest Paris creations.


So here creation is the bringing into existence of the universe by God. So lets see what God created: Genesis 1
God's creation contained: light, darkness, heaven, dry land, vegetation, plants yielding seed, fruit trees, stars (pry other planets here as well), animals. And to also emphasize God said that all he saw was good. His creation was good.

Interesting thought here as well.. plants yielding seeds, to loose ones seeds a plant withers and begins to die. So I do believe that plants died prior to Adams sinning, there was physical (material) death in the world.
Also that there is the account of creation... in number 1 of this poll it says that all of creation changed.. Tell me what changed in that account of what God created? Did the light change? The heavens change? The animals change? The fruit trees change? there's 5 days there.. and nothing that God created in those five days changed.

The sixth day is when God created Adam and Eve, course i believe they didn't change either. I believe God created them with a sinful nature, so even their creation and nature didn't change. Also side note did humans look like monkeys then something else? did their appearance change? hehe couldn't resist that one... Though guess some people believe they were created with a perfect nature...

So again tell me where all of creation changed here?? Did the stars change? Did what the humans look like how they were created change? I dont see how creation changed? Tell me did brown tree trunks now become blue?

okay also we keep talking about death this verse is a good point in Genesis... Genesis 2:17 'but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die". Did adam have a physical death when he ate? No, because he was still well alive physically after, he contiued to grow in age. So God must not have meant physical death but spiritual. So in poll answer 1 says "death entered the world". What death? Physical or spiritual death? Well not physical thats for sure.. and thats the death I thought was being talked about since said all creation changed. But I do believe at the time Adam disobeyed that he spiritually died, because in Romans talks about elect dead to sins, made alive in Christ. And this spiritual death spreading to all men (Romans 5:12 see my previous post) makes sense in talking about the elect only, for only the elect are dead spiritually and need to be made alive in Christ. Are reprobates dead spiritually? Id say not.. they are well alive in their worship of Satan, of their position in Satan, of their being alive in his family and not Gods family. See other thread where we talk about this as well.

Wow!! I really have to say reading thru Genesis.. speaking about creation, physical death and spiritual death.. it all starts to make sense, and go together! Everything Ive been learning really is starting to mesh together.. all these polls verses in Romans are connecting with verses in Genesis. Cool! :D

Mary

ps Also some thoughts on the whole cursed and all that God said to Adam and Eve. I believe that was their consequence for what they did, God was showing them that they were held accountable, and responsible for their decision. Obviously we know God predestined it.. that He planned for it to happen. However, He would hold them accountable their consequence was pain in childbirth, whatever 'cursed are you more than cattle meant', that they wont eat from the tree but have to toil the ground for food, I dont see how the things God told them because of their actions means creation changed. Furthermore, really what God was saying is good was done to you, blessings were done.. but now there will be hardship, calamity, etc. It wont be all good anymore. Now God purposed that to happen.. it was only revealed to Adam, not changed!

Also, when reading through cursed definitions it just means misfortune, that there would be hardships. Not sure about cursed is the ground.. but even if God said it is cursed doesn't mean all creation changed. Maybe just means its cursed because men have to toil it, it wont be left alone anymore. Doesn't mean His creating of it.. that the ground changed. Just some ideas.. sorry if this is long!

lionovjudah
12-18-06, 12:53 PM
Hey those are some good questions and makes me look upon this poll in a different way then my original post about perspectives or point of views. Though its still a good thought thinking about point of views (povs) from Gods pov nothing changed it was all determined to happen before the foundation of the world, even though he cursed the ground and there were consequences doesn't mean His plan changed or His creation/ the earth, stars, etc. From Adam's pov or mans pov a whole lot seemed to have changed cause you say the ground was cursed there was pain.. there was this and that that changed from when Adam and Eve were living in the Garden.

However aside from that about creation. The polls says:
A) All of creation changed in a single moment and death entered the world.
B) Little changed except for the fact that Adam came to know who he was.

What is creation?? Let's see what God says creation is:
Mk 10:6, (NASB) (http://bible.5solas.org/bible.php?view=1&version=nasb&book=41&chapter=10&verse1=6&verse2=&ascdesc=&abrv=1&strip=0&converge=0&footnotes=0&createchaps=1&compare=0&andor=0&restrict=&startbook=&endbook=&references=&highlight=1&chaplinks=&remove=&keywords=creation), "But from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female.

So creation just means what God created right? Here's a definition from a dictionary just in case someone wants it:
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna.html) - Cite This Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=creation&ia=luna)
cre·a·tion http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnghttp://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2 Fcreation)/kriˈeɪhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngʃən/Pronunciation Key (http://www.predestinarian.net/) - Show Spelled Pronunciation (http://www.predestinarian.net/)[kree-ey-shuhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngn]Pronunciation Key (http://www.predestinarian.net/) - Show IPA Pronunciation (http://www.predestinarian.net/)–noun 1.the act of producing or causing to exist; the act of creating; engendering. 2.the fact of being created. 3.something that is or has been created. 4.the Creation, the original bringing into existence of the universe by God. 5.the world; universe. 6.creatures collectively. 7.an original product of the mind, esp. an imaginative artistic work: the creations of a poetic genius. 8.a specially designed dress, hat, or other article of women's clothing, usually distinguished by imaginative or unique styling: the newest Paris creations.


So here creation is the bringing into existence of the universe by God. So lets see what God created: Genesis 1
God's creation contained: light, darkness, heaven, dry land, vegetation, plants yielding seed, fruit trees, stars (pry other planets here as well), animals. And to also emphasize God said that all he saw was good. His creation was good.

Interesting thought here as well.. plants yielding seeds, to loose ones seeds a plant withers and begins to die. So I do believe that plants died prior to Adams sinning, there was physical (material) death in the world.
Also that there is the account of creation... in number 1 of this poll it says that all of creation changed.. Tell me what changed in that account of what God created? Did the light change? The heavens change? The animals change? The fruit trees change? there's 5 days there.. and nothing that God created in those five days changed.

The sixth day is when God created Adam and Eve, course i believe they didn't change either. I believe God created them with a sinful nature, so even their creation and nature didn't change. Also side note did humans look like monkeys then something else? did their appearance change? hehe couldn't resist that one... Though guess some people believe they were created with a perfect nature...

So again tell me where all of creation changed here?? Did the stars change? Did what the humans look like how they were created change? I dont see how creation changed? Tell me did brown tree trunks now become blue?

okay also we keep talking about death this verse is a good point in Genesis... Genesis 2:17 'but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die". Did adam have a physical death when he ate? No, because he was still well alive physically after, he contiued to grow in age. So God must not have meant physical death but spiritual. So in poll answer 1 says "death entered the world". What death? Physical or spiritual death? Well not physical thats for sure.. and thats the death I thought was being talked about since said all creation changed. But I do believe at the time Adam disobeyed that he spiritually died, because in Romans talks about elect dead to sins, made alive in Christ. And this spiritual death spreading to all men (Romans 5:12 see my previous post) makes sense in talking about the elect only, for only the elect are dead spiritually and need to be made alive in Christ. Are reprobates dead spiritually? Id say not.. they are well alive in their worship of Satan, of their position in Satan, of their being alive in his family and not Gods family. See other thread where we talk about this as well.

Wow!! I really have to say reading thru Genesis.. speaking about creation, physical death and spiritual death.. it all starts to make sense, and go together! Everything Ive been learning really is starting to mesh together.. all these polls verses in Romans are connecting with verses in Genesis. Cool! :D

Mary

ps Also some thoughts on the whole cursed and all that God said to Adam and Eve. I believe that was their consequence for what they did, God was showing them that they were held accountable, and responsible for their decision. Obviously we know God predestined it.. that He planned for it to happen. However, He would hold them accountable their consequence was pain in childbirth, whatever 'cursed are you more than cattle meant', that they wont eat from the tree but have to toil the ground for food, I dont see how the things God told them because of their actions means creation changed. Furthermore, really what God was saying is good was done to you, blessings were done.. but now there will be hardship, calamity, etc. It wont be all good anymore. Now God purposed that to happen.. it was only revealed to Adam, not changed!

Also, when reading through cursed definitions it just means misfortune, that there would be hardships. Not sure about cursed is the ground.. but even if God said it is cursed doesn't mean all creation changed. Maybe just means its cursed because men have to toil it, it wont be left alone anymore. Doesn't mean His creating of it.. that the ground changed. Just some ideas.. sorry if this is long!

I will repeat emphatically Mary. This has NOTHING, to do with the immutability of God. Why are you ung up on the purpose of God here? It has nothig to do with the poll.

WHen scripture says Christ CHANGED water into wine, was there not a change? Or was it wine to begin with and only revelaed to the drunks what it already was? I dont understnad you rline of thinking here and it is way off the mark.

When Christ healed Blind Bartemeaus, was he actually not blind, but Christ had to only reveal to him he could see?


When Christ raised Lazarus, was he actually still alove, but thought he was dead and only revealed to lazarus what he already was?

MCoving
12-18-06, 01:03 PM
I will repeat emphatically Mary. This has NOTHING, to do with the immutability of God. Why are you ung up on the purpose of God here? It has nothig to do with the poll.

WHen scripture says Christ CHANGED water into wine, was there not a change? Or was it wine to begin with and only revelaed to the drunks what it already was? I dont understnad you rline of thinking here and it is way off the mark.

You are the one hung up on my being hung up on Gods immutability. If that just made sense... either way you noticed I got off of that subject onto the fact that nothing in Creation changed! The water didn't change, the tree didn't become a different color, the sky didn't change, the stars didn't change, the animals didn't change, the plants didn't become something else. People didnt change. Yeah Christ changed the water to wine.. was the water in creation changed when Adam sinned? No. I dont see how ALL things in creation changed. What changed was Adam realization of good and evil. And could also add his consequence, before he didn't have a consequence. Now if that means all creation to you.. then whatever, doesn't to me.

Mary

lionovjudah
12-18-06, 01:23 PM
You are the one hung up on my being hung up on Gods immutability. If that just made sense... either way you noticed I got off of that subject onto the fact that nothing in Creation changed! The water didn't change, the tree didn't become a different color, the sky didn't change, the stars didn't change, the animals didn't change, the plants didn't become something else. People didnt change. Yeah Christ changed the water to wine.. was the water in creation changed when Adam sinned? No. I dont see how ALL things in creation changed. What changed was Adam realization of good and evil. And could also add his consequence, before he didn't have a consequence. Now if that means all creation to you.. then whatever, doesn't to me.

Mary

I am so confused now I dont know what to think!!!!:eek:

Brandan
12-18-06, 01:27 PM
I am so confused now I dont know what to think!!!!:eek:If you are so confused, why do you argue for one position over another?

lionovjudah
12-18-06, 01:32 PM
If you are so confused, why do you argue for one position over another?


It is easier to understand the parables of Christ, quantum physics than talking with Mary BK.

I am certain about the biblical position discussed.

MCoving
12-18-06, 02:12 PM
It is easier to understand the parables of Christ, quantum physics than talking with Mary BK.

I am certain about the biblical position discussed.

LOL I dont ask you to understand me lion, but Gods Word. Yeah I've been told by a few that my posts can be confusing, sometimes its hard for me to get my thinking down and explain it. Thats why I post biblical passages as well, you can examine them for yourself and come to an understanding that makes sense to you.

My point is pretty clear, I'll try and make it simple in a few words (not saying that you need a few words just you said you were confused). I'm not as mean as you I wont call you "slow". :)

Poll says:
A) All of creation changed in a single moment and death entered the world.

A is wrong imo. Why? None of creation the earth, sky, trees, plants changed in any physical way when Adam sinned. Physical death did not enter the world when Adam sinned.

B) Little changed except for the fact that Adam came to know who he was.

B is the better choice. Why? Little did change since I've already said that none of the physical creation changed and physical death didn't enter when Adam sinned. The little that changed: Adam realized good and evil, realized his sinful nature and need of a savior. Adam was given consequences by God for His actions, Adam was held responsible. He became spiritual dead. Those changes don't necessarily have to do with WHAT GOD CREATED! Just events that happened.

Hope that helped to clarify my position some for you Lion. And by the way you can really understand quantum physics more than that? Then I feel a little sorry for you.. some of what I say seems like elemental bible teachings, some of that I learned from religion even, that Adam didn't die physically so must have been a spiritual death. Either way I've said this over and over, hopefully others understand what i say. If you dont lion, then oh well cant convince someone that doesn't want to seek for understanding and truth or doesn't try to understand. We all have our positions I guess... or if you need to you can private message me and I'll try explaining better for you.

Mary

lionovjudah
12-18-06, 02:28 PM
LOL I dont ask you to understand me lion, but Gods Word. Yeah I've been told by a few that my posts can be confusing, sometimes its hard for me to get my thinking down and explain it. Thats why I post biblical passages as well, you can examine them for yourself and come to an understanding that makes sense to you.

My point is pretty clear, I'll try and make it simple in a few words (not saying that you need a few words just you said you were confused). I'm not as mean as you I wont call you "slow". :)

Poll says:
A) All of creation changed in a single moment and death entered the world.

A is wrong imo. Why? None of creation the earth, sky, trees, plants changed in any physical way when Adam sinned. Physical death did not enter the world when Adam sinned.

B) Little changed except for the fact that Adam came to know who he was.

B is the better choice. Why? Little did change since I've already said that none of the physical creation changed and physical death didn't enter when Adam sinned. The little that changed: Adam realized good and evil, realized his sinful nature and need of a savior. Adam was given consequences by God for His actions, Adam was held responsible. He became spiritual dead. Those changes don't necessarily have to do with WHAT GOD CREATED! Just events that happened.

Hope that helped to clarify my position some for you Lion. And by the way you can really understand quantum physics more than that? Then I feel a little sorry for you.. some of what I say seems like elemental bible teachings, some of that I learned from religion even, that Adam didn't die physically so must have been a spiritual death. Either way I've said this over and over, hopefully others understand what i say. If you dont lion, then oh well cant convince someone that doesn't want to seek for understanding and truth or doesn't try to understand. We all have our positions I guess... or if you need to you can private message me and I'll try explaining better for you.

Mary

Mary, my statement was said laced with a tad of sarcasm!!!! ;)

lionovjudah
12-18-06, 06:18 PM
Job was from Uz...

Machaira
12-18-06, 07:14 PM
None of creation the earth, sky, trees, plants changed in any physical way when Adam sinned. Physical death did not enter the world when Adam sinned.

Since this is your contention, what would you like to do with the following:

Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope

Rom 8:21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Brandan
12-18-06, 07:51 PM
Since this is your contention, what would you like to do with the following:

Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope

Rom 8:21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
This is completely misinterpreted. You are interpreting this passage with the assumption that the world was perfect and without physical decay. The world was perfect with death and physical decay, and it is continually subjected to it until the future when the new heavens and a new earth will be revealed. It will not be a mere restoration to the Garden of Eden as most christian expositors would have us to believe.

Bob Higby
12-19-06, 02:11 AM
Right Brandan! The issue is WHEN did God subject the creation to futility and decay, BEFORE or AFTER the great sin? We propose that it was before, since the purpose of the shadow creation was to give way to Grace. The shadow creation is certainly full of God's goodness and glory, which testifies of the ultimate redemption and total perfection to come in the real and first creation.

On the cursing of the ground, no one has mentioned the event in Gen. 8:21 in which God entirely reversed this curse. I find the omission of this 'little snippet' by contributors here, one that indeed most persons usually ignore, extremely significant. It shows us that the curse of thorns and thistles was temporal and is no longer with us today. In light of that no one can claim that the curse of thorns and thistles changed the essence of the earth or the historical process. History is full of alternate cursing and blessing; look at the seven years of great plenty in Egypt followed by seven years of awful depravation! Look at the extreme variations in the economies of blessing and curse of the nations throughout history!

We no longer have the curse of thorns and thistles on the ground today. True, we have thorns and thistles--these plants were created and existed in the world before the curse pronounced as a result of Adam's sin was ever pronounced! But our primary nuisance in working the ground is crabgrass and not thorns! God took away the curse of abundant thorns from the ground after the great flood.

Machaira
12-19-06, 02:20 AM
The world was perfect with death and physical decay. . .

Perfect with death and physical decay??? I'm afraid that the Apostle Paul disagrees with you. He seems to consider the condition you call 'perfect' as 'bondage' needing deliverance.

Machaira
12-19-06, 06:25 AM
Right Brandan! The issue is WHEN did God subject the creation to futility and decay, BEFORE or AFTER the great sin? We propose that it was before . . .

I see . . . so the creation didn't become corrupt, God Almighty actively created a corrupt universe without any reference to the Fall. Good luck with that! :D

Brandan
12-19-06, 06:27 AM
I see . . . so the creation didn't become corrupt, God Almighty actively created a corrupt universe without any reference to the Fall. Good luck with that! :DHey moron! Either post something constructive or stop posting! We're not trying to convince people like you what we believe, we are posting what we think is true for the sake of the elect.

jmgipson
12-19-06, 07:34 AM
Hey moron! Either post something constructive or stop posting! We're not trying to convince people like you what we believe, we are posting what we think is true for the sake of the elect.

Brandan,
I wouldn't let this so called ruling elder bug you. He has a weird view of God so I take what he says with no weight. I have seen his logic in earlier posts on faith and supra.

Example of his logic:
Are some men elected to salvation?:
Yes
Are some men elected to damnation?:
Yes
Is salvation by works?:
No
Do men have free will?:
Yes
Is salvation offered to all who hear the Gospel?:
Yes
God wants all men to be saved?:
No
Salvation dependent upon acceptance of truth?:
No
Jesus died for all men?:
No
God loves all men?:
No
Christ experienced sin in His person?:
No
Was sin imputed or imparted to Christ?:
Imputed
Is righteousness imputed or imparted to believers?:
Imputed
God predestines all things, including sin?:
Yes
God wanted Adam to fall into sin?:
Yes
God has how many wills?:
Two (God has a will of "desire" and a decretive will)
When is righteousness imputed to the elect?:
At the cross
Do you believe in Justification from Eternity?:
Yes
God hates the elect at some point in time?:
Yes
God loves the reprobate?:
No

John

MCoving
12-19-06, 12:36 PM
Right Brandan! The issue is WHEN did God subject the creation to futility and decay, BEFORE or AFTER the great sin? We propose that it was before, since the purpose of the shadow creation was to give way to Grace. The shadow creation is certainly full of God's goodness and glory, which testifies of the ultimate redemption and total perfection to come in the real and first creation.

On the cursing of the ground, no one has mentioned the event in Gen. 8:21 in which God entirely reversed this curse. I find the omission of this 'little snippet' by contributors here, one that indeed most persons usually ignore, extremely significant. It shows us that the curse of thorns and thistles was temporal and is no longer with us today. In light of that no one can claim that the curse of thorns and thistles changed the essence of the earth or the historical process. History is full of alternate cursing and blessing; look at the seven years of great plenty in Egypt followed by seven years of awful depravation! Look at the extreme variations in the economies of blessing and curse of the nations throughout history!

We no longer have the curse of thorns and thistles on the ground today. True, we have thorns and thistles--these plants were created and existed in the world before the curse pronounced as a result of Adam's sin was ever pronounced! But our primary nuisance in working the ground is crabgrass and not thorns! God took away the curse of abundant thorns from the ground after the great flood.

Wow excellent point on the curse that God gave after the Fall. I never notcied in Genesis 8 that God lifted the curse, and I have recently read thru Genesis. Its cool how there's so much to the Bible, and so much to learn. Thanks for pointing that out! I love being on this site and learning more and more. haha If I could I would learn about God all the time! I mean I'd love to read thru the Bible and just learn about God and discuss him for half a day at least. I'd rather read His Word than work. haha I'm kinda weird like that, I love God and His Word.. and studying and theology.

I think in all of this the main thing one has to take into consideration is that the poll says all of creation changed, creation as in the ground and all that God created. Not talking about what events changed, or what in Adams life changed. I think those who answered a should really think about what exactly in creation changed. I would like to know what you say did?

Mary

lionovjudah
12-19-06, 01:46 PM
Wow excellent point on the curse that God gave after the Fall. I never notcied in Genesis 8 that God lifted the curse, Mary

Oh no, does this make God mutible? :DSomuch time and so little to do, oh reverse that