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alt731
01-20-19, 05:58 PM
I basically believe that the universe is a mechanism, in both the material and the spiritual realms. There are material mechanisms and there are spiritual mechanisms. God alone exists outside the created, mechanical order, and the work of his Holy Spirit is a miraculous work that defies any need for mechanism. God alone has a true, libertarian, free will. Miracles are, so to speak, the direct intervention of God in the world. Now, I also believe that the Lord is upholding all things at all times by the word of his power, and so I'm in no way denying that God is, absolutely, the ultimate and immediate cause of all things. He is. I'm just saying that I also believe the created order works according to a great big mechanism, because that is how God has created it. In fact I'd say that the idea of mechanism is integral to the way God has created creation.

When people say, "so we're all robots, then" I merely point out that robots are not biological, they don't think, they aren't alive and obviously, they don't make choices, they are not conscious, they are completely unaware of pain or pleasure, and in these ways we are different to robots, but in so far as robots are mechanisms, I say that this is something all created beings share in common. In fact, I believe mechanism is almost part of the definition of something being created. Cause and effect is the logic of God working its way out in the world.

This is, at least in part, how I see the sovereignty of God over everything working. My question is, do other people think God's sovereignty works like that? And, how else could it work?

alt731
01-22-19, 11:49 AM
Hi alt731!
John von Neumann proved mathematically that the classical model of the mechanical Universe, adequately describing its experimentally established properties, cannot exist.

Vadim

Thanks Vadim! As it happens, I greatly appreciate the theory of quantum in-determinism. I basically believe it is yet another proof of God. When they say "event A happened completely at random" all they really mean is that nothing in creation caused event A to happen, which, as far as I'm concerned, means that something outside of creation caused it to happen. I believe that what they call "quantum indeterminism" is basically the means by which God upholds all things.

But, in my original question, I actually meant one level up. Quantum in-determinism is true at the lowest level of all: the quantum level. My question was more focused on everything above that level. And, obviously, quantum in-determinism only pertains to the material world. I'm also talking about the spiritual world.

Brandan
01-22-19, 11:52 AM
The observation effect ; double slit experiment is a wonderful proof of idealism.

Greg
01-22-19, 12:26 PM
Didn't Bell's theorem postulate that all reality is non local?

Brandan
01-24-19, 03:57 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed-choice_quantum_eraser

This is the experiment I was referring to. Fun reading. We believers already know though that all things were determined by God's decree.

Bob Higby
01-24-19, 08:08 PM
The theory of quantum physics attempts to establish that the universe has no fixed mechanical laws where a variance to such a law can't be found. Einstein became obsessed with quantum physics and 'special relativity' in his later years after defining all the logical formulas for his theory of 'general relativity'. All of this does not matter for those who know that God in his person transcends all of the physical universe and He is not bound by space, time, or law. He created both fixed mechanical law (perfect order) and laws of disorder in the creation of the universe, this has to be obvious. The creation of both 'light' and 'darkness' as referred to in scripture applies even here.

I think it has become obvious in scientific observation that no man will ever discover an 'edge' to the universe, define the size or shape of the universe. An interesting question here that scientists have asked is: if traveling in an absolutely straight line away from a point on the Earth into space above, does that travel route ultimately come back to right here where it started? No one knows for sure! Logically the travel would go farther from the Earth forever but we don't know what other laws God has created that apply to such travel.

ugly_gaunt_cow
03-14-19, 12:12 PM
I basically believe that the universe is a mechanism, in both the material and the spiritual realms. There are material mechanisms and there are spiritual mechanisms. God alone exists outside the created, mechanical order, and the work of his Holy Spirit is a miraculous work that defies any need for mechanism. God alone has a true, libertarian, free will. Miracles are, so to speak, the direct intervention of God in the world. Now, I also believe that the Lord is upholding all things at all times by the word of his power, and so I'm in no way denying that God is, absolutely, the ultimate and immediate cause of all things. He is. I'm just saying that I also believe the created order works according to a great big mechanism, because that is how God has created it. In fact I'd say that the idea of mechanism is integral to the way God has created creation.

When people say, "so we're all robots, then" I merely point out that robots are not biological, they don't think, they aren't alive and obviously, they don't make choices, they are not conscious, they are completely unaware of pain or pleasure, and in these ways we are different to robots, but in so far as robots are mechanisms, I say that this is something all created beings share in common. In fact, I believe mechanism is almost part of the definition of something being created. Cause and effect is the logic of God working its way out in the world.

This is, at least in part, how I see the sovereignty of God over everything working. My question is, do other people think God's sovereignty works like that? And, how else could it work?

Technically speaking...

The word 'robot' comes from the Czech word, robota, meaning "forced labour". Forced labour is slavery. Now, humans are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. So, ya... We're robots.