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BibleBeliever
10-09-01, 05:14 PM
I want to share this information with everyone... especially for those who are unaware of what a psychic/fortune teller really is. We've all seen the advertisements on tv, tv shows, newspapers, billboards, the internet and just about any other place capable of entagling the curious. Psychics are false prophets. It is important to know that there are two kinds of psychics - the ones that truly know nothing and are just a giant scam and the other ones are the demonic possessed. These demonic ones are the ones that really can tell you about your past with incredible accuracey - but it's not because they have wisdom and super powers. How can that be? Well, I think the answer is pretty simple... demons have been here long before you and I. Since they were cast down here to the earth, they have seen countless generations of people born, grow up, and die. I don't think it's impossible to think that a psychic who truly is tapped into the demonic side of things can be possessed by a particular demon or group of demons that saw you grow up - saw you do things. In other words, if a person who went to or called a psychic person actually had revealed to them real events and details from their past by someone they never met, only a demon could know such things (besides God). But that is as far as it goes; have you ever noticed that the psychics who can recall a person's past events without even knowing them can't accurately predict the future?? That's because demons do not have anymore knowledge about the future than we have from the Bible.

Here is what the Bible says in Acts 16:16-19: "Once we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners for fortunetelling. This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, 'These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved'. She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, 'In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!' At that moment the spirit left her. When the owners of the slave girl realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul & Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to face the authorities."

Demons cannot lie when it comes to Jesus Christ. The spirit in this woman had to tell the truth about salvation - as does any demonic spirit when confronted by someone asking IT 'who sent you'. (this is one reason why Catholics have a problem getting rid of spirits in homes or wherever... their rosary water, insense and prayers to Mary - it does no good because they are trying to rid demons by their works and powers and not with true faith and power in Jesus Christ - a good example of a similar case in the Bible is Acts 19:13-20)

Another subject pretty much identical to the psychic stuff are 'ghosts'. Ghosts ARE demons. The world is so dupped when it comes to these subjects. I sometimes watch those paranormal shows, knowing full well what the truth is and most of the explanations people have for the 'ghosts' are quite comical and downright more hard to believe that believing we have a Creator! Isn't that weird that people can believe their loved one has come back to haunt or they can contact the dead loved one but when it comes to trying to tell them about God, it's like a huge mystery to them and not enough facts for them to comprehend?!

Brothers and Siters, God has given us a look into the future - as much as we need to know. We need not go to a fortune teller or call a hotline or get involved in other demonic activities because when you want to know something about the future, go to a realiable source - the Bible or ask God that the Holy Spirit may guide you. Remember, God is omniscient (all knowing) and He has been to tomorrow already and the next day and He will give you what you need one day at a time. There is more to God than just believing He exists... you need to believe what He says; out of approximately 1,000 prophecies, approximately 500 have already flawlessly and accurately come to pass... there is no psychic or ghost that can have that kind of record about future events. And there is no reason to doubt the future God has revealed to us.

I would like to share one more thing... I know first hand that there is such thing as ghosts - but I know the truth now and that is they are really demons. When I was a kid I grew up in a very wicked home that was occupied by demons; as I look back on those times, I realize now that God was protecting me even long before I accepted His Son as my Savior. Even as I got older and moved to another home with my dad, there was a demon there too. My dad seems to be a host of demons because of the Middle Eastern religions he and his wife are in to. Anyway, long story short... Ever since becoming a Christian a few years ago, I have never seen another 'ghost'!!! Now when I visit my dad I get a very errie cold feeling in his home but no demons have come out into the open since I accepted Christ. Those demons know I know the truth about what they are and that I won't hesitate to call upon Jesus to intervene in their little trix with trying to scare or harm me. AMEN to the power of GOD!!!!

In His Name,

Martha

:D

Brandan
10-09-01, 05:17 PM
Hey Martha, it seems you're a real life Ghost Buster, eh? :)

BibleBeliever
10-09-01, 05:29 PM
Hello Kermie...

Ha ha ha. It seems that way.... I truly feel moved by the Holy Spirit to deal with the subject of ghosts.


I just joined this group yesterday and I saw the frog... that is so cute... I enjoy Kermit very much. I told my husband about Kermie because we have two Kermits that sit in the living room chair - along with a few Elmos. ha ha ha

Martha

Fledge
10-10-01, 07:48 AM
I totally agree with you BB.

I would like to add that some ghost reports may also be just "mind over matter"...meaning, somebody THINKS there's a ghost, they believe it so strongly that they make themselves see ghosts when there is absolutely nothing there.

But in cases where there actually is something there...I agree with you.

One thought though.

Is it at all possible that in the rare cases where a so-called "ghost" is there...could it be an angel, or a vision sent by God? Especially when it is a "benevolent", helpful, "friendly" one?
Perhaps an angel sent to help and wrapped up in an appearance that will make the person comfortable or something?
I have often thought that "could" be the case from time to time. More the exception than the rule however.

Christ_†_Alone
10-10-01, 09:45 AM
When I was a kid, these things (ghosts, etc.) fascinated me. Maybe not anymore than any other kid, but enough to really read anything I could get my hands on.

As I grew older, and grew in the Lord, the one thing that shut me down cold, as for wondering if some of these "apparitions" might be of God, was this verse:

* Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I thought "well, if a man dies and then stands before the Lord, that leaves no room to come back and comfort anyone".

The main thing that bothered me about that, was that SO many actually believe they HAVE seen uncle Charlie, grandma, or their very own spouse.

Now IF a person can be convinced beyond all doubt, that this IS who they think it is, they will have to deny that verse in Hebrews... because their loved one is floating around in their house somewhere.

Who wants human beings to doubt or deny the Word of God? God himself, or our enemies, the same enemies of God, that even believe and tremble?

Lest anyone think me insenstive about the topic, just for the record, something did show up in just a few days after my first husband died, and made it's presence known three times. By scent, and by sound. Both of these things were scents and sounds EXCLUSIVE to my late husband, and really did blow me away... until I looked up a few verses in Scripture, to make sure I hadn't lost my mind.

When I became angry that the enemy would try to deceive me, I LOUDLY rebuked this vile lie from the pit of hell, in the victorious name of Christ Jesus, my Redeemer.

Now... had that actually been my late husband, he would have stayed and pleaded with me to know it was truly him - but that's not what happened.

What DID happen, was a few things broke, on their own, and this presence left, and never returned.

That was all it took to convince me, this thing, whatever it was, was NOT of God (although He did allow it), and was definitely not my late husband.

Someone once told me, much later "yeah, easy test, but how many people rebuke their dearly beloved aunt Ruby, in the name of Christ, to see if it's really her or not?"

Point well taken... folks are just too eager to believe it IS really them, because they miss them, and their hearts are broken... what an awesome opportunity to be conned by the enemy!! Even secular psychologists will warn a newly widowed or widower, NOT to make any importan decisions in the first year after, because you're too freshly heartbroken, to be thinking clearly.

If THEY understand that (and I can attest that it is true, from personal experience), surely the enemy knows it MUCH better, eh?

Just sharing a few thoughts...

BibleBeliever
10-10-01, 10:05 AM
Fledge,

Yeah, some of those 'sightings' could possibly be in someone's mind or hoaxes, etc. by people looking to get attention on national tv. As for ones that could be 'good angels'.... what I think is this: we (meaning the believers) and good angels are all servents of God; God will always send a servent to do His Will whether it be an 'unseen' angel or another human - He won't personally show up. But the battles take place in the spritual realm and we aren't able to see that - yet (until we get our heavenly bodies). I think the demons choose to reveal themselves the way they do in order to deceive and we can see so far that it is working. Satan's job is to keep you from God and if he can waste people's time getting them to believe they are god and they have powers to speak to the dead, etc., the more merry for Satan because if you die before accepting Christ, Satan's got your soul.

The angels that appear in the Bible seemed to have human form. God also said to test His servents (angels) by asking who sent them (sorry, I can't remember where in the Bible it says that).... because a demon cannot lie and say he was sent from God when he was not. The whole deal here is Satan likes to mimick God - he even appears as an angel of light but he is a lie. That is why if we don't know God, we may not know His voice and Satan can resemble something that appears good - then we are tricked into sinning against God.

Sort of on the same subject... those people that see visions of the Virgin Mary and of course see the blood or tears dripping from a statue of Christ... that is all demonic as well. But it sure has a lot of people going in the wrong direction; it has the Catholics practicing idolatry and praying to a dead person. It has scientists intrigued with no real explanation (well unless they bothered to open up the BIble and read what God has to say about all this)!!
There is a whole bunch of nasty Satan inspired stuff out there, afterall, Satan is in charge of the earthly kingdom for now.

In conclusion, I don't think it is impossible for a 'good angel' to be seen; but we know the good angel will not play trix on us and should we ever come face to face with a spirit, we know we can test that spirit to make sure it is from the Lord. Pretty creepy stuff when you think about it... all these things are going on around us and we can't see it.

Martha

BibleBeliever
10-10-01, 10:28 AM
Christ Alone,

WOW, that's fantastic! What a great victory over the enemy! Yes, few would have done that - either because they really miss thier loved one or they are ignorant about demons and the Truth. See how convincing Satan and his demons can be?? IT mimicked your late husband so well that if you didn't know the truth, you'd of been dupped.

The demons that bothered me when I was younger - I didn't know who they were trying to resemble - but they used shadows, flashlights, toys and hollywood prop-dummies to 'possess'. But the last incident I had was when I was 18 and I moved with my dad to a condo and not long after living there me and a friend were sitting on my bed and a very cold creepy spirit came into the room and felt like it went right through us - the friend and I looked at each other with acknowledgement that it was a 'ghost'. We found out that in that very room the original owner of the condo had died a few months before. After that incident, IT left. I think perhaps good angels made it go away; weird, it would be another 10 years before I would become a Christian and learn the truth about the 'ghost'.

In His Name,

Martha

Kathleen
10-10-01, 05:51 PM
Oooh...I just got shivers...very creepy.

Hey Biblebeliever..or whoever else may know!
Is there a specific 'way' to get rid of these demons and/or ghosts? Biblebeliever...When you mention that a demon cannot lie and say it's of God..does that mean we (human) are supposed to speak to it? and ask him if it is from God? There are some houses that I walk into and instantly feel a bad presence..some of my friends' homes have regular visits from 'guests'. My friend told me not to be scared because this 'ghost' has kept to itself and not bothered anybody. My best friend sees ghosts regularly. I would really like to know...is there a way to get rid of them? I'm sure my friends would like to know as well, they seem to have a whole lot of ghost stories. Some of them even made a website based on some of their encounters.

Any help would be appreciated!! THanks & God Bless You.

Andrew
10-10-01, 08:02 PM
I totally agree with BB's beliefs on fortune tellers and ghosts. As an Asian, we have al lot of this stuff among the Buddhists and Taoists.

My wife is a little psychic ie sensitive to the spirit realm - she sometimes sees these "ghosts" or can sense their presence. Me? Haven't seen anything (not that i want to) and my skin is as thick as cowhide.

I'm more interested in sensing the presence of the Holy Ghost than demonic ghosts.

Since we're on this topic, what does it mean to you guys when Christians say:
"God's presence here is strong", "I can feel the presence of the Holy Spirit" or "Oh, the annointing here is strong!"

What do you actually feel? If you feel anything? I notice women are more able to feel/sense the presence of God.

questian
10-11-01, 09:50 AM
Another subject pretty much identical to the psychic stuff are 'ghosts'. Ghosts ARE demons.


…out of approximately 1,000 prophecies, approximately 500 have already flawlessly and accurately come to pass... there is no psychic or ghost that can have that kind of record about future events.


I know first hand that there is such thing as ghosts - but I know the truth now and that is they are really demons.


I Samuel 28:7-19

Saul then said to his attendants, "Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her." "There is one in Endor," they said. So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name." But the woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?" Saul swore to her by the LORD, "As surely as the LORD lives, you will not be punished for this." Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" "Bring up Samuel," he said. When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!" The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?" The woman said, "I see a spirit coming up out of the ground." "What does he look like?" he asked. "An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do." Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors--to David. Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."

1 Samuel 31:1-13

Now the Philistines fought against Israel; the Israelites fled before them, and many fell slain on Mount Gilboa. The Philistines pressed hard after Saul and his sons, and they killed his sons Jonathan, Abinadab and Malki-Shua. The fighting grew fierce around Saul, and when the archers overtook him, they wounded him critically. Saul said to his armor-bearer, "Draw your sword and run me through, or these uncircumcised fellows will come and run me through and abuse me." But his armor-bearer was terrified and would not do it; so Saul took his own sword and fell on it. When the armor-bearer saw that Saul was dead, he too fell on his sword and died with him. So Saul and his three sons and his armor-bearer and all his men died together that same day. When the Israelites along the valley and those across the Jordan saw that the Israelite army had fled and that Saul and his sons had died, they abandoned their towns and fled. And the Philistines came and occupied them. The next day, when the Philistines came to strip the dead, they found Saul and his three sons fallen on Mount Gilboa. They cut off his head and stripped off his armor, and they sent messengers throughout the land of the Philistines to proclaim the news in the temple of their idols and among their people. They put his armor in the temple of the Ashtoreths and fastened his body to the wall of Beth Shan. When the people of Jabesh Gilead heard of what the Philistines had done to Saul, all their valiant men journeyed through the night to Beth Shan. They took down the bodies of Saul and his sons from the wall of Beth Shan and went to Jabesh, where they burned them. Then they took their bones and buried them under a tamarisk tree at Jabesh, and they fasted seven days.


Biblebeliever,
Anything to say about this?

BibleBeliever
10-11-01, 10:00 AM
Kathleen,

Wow, your friends have regular 'guests'!! Are they Christian? Would really help if they were because only the power of Jesus Christ can bring evil to it's knees. Demons obivously don't like it when Jesus Christ is with us... they have to yield to the higher power. I've never personally been in a situation as a Christian which required me to rid a place of a demon. I would say the best place to start is prayer to the Lord.... but if you come face to face with this 'guest', you can say to it "Christ rebuke you".

What I meant about asking the spirit who sent it.... if you come face to face with a spirit (apirition) and it speaks to you, test it by asking who sent it. If it is truly a messenger of God, it will say so. If it is not of God, it will probably leave because it cannot lie about who sent it. Again, it does say this in the Bible and I need to find it!! I bring this up because I've heard some weird things lately about people giving the reasons for their crime or naughty behavior.... they say God told them to do it. Well, God will never ask you to sin to do His will and He will never sin to get you what you need.

One thing for sure is this: the body cannot contain both the Holy Spirit and a demonic spirit. There's only room for one - they cannot co-exist. Someone who does not have the Holy Spirit is totally suseptible to a demonic one instead. Just because the person isn't foaming at the mouth or running around like a nut case doesn't mean they aren't possesed.

In His Name,

Martha

questian
10-11-01, 10:16 AM
I've heard some weird things lately about people giving the reasons for their crime or naughty behavior.... they say God told them to do it. Well, God will never ask you to sin to do His will

Genesis 22:1-2
"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."

Leviticus 18:21
"Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD."


(It's okay to kill your children in the name of God as long as it's the RIGHT God.)

BibleBeliever
10-11-01, 11:10 AM
Questian,

Thank you for bringing up the information in I Samuel. A few things come to mind about this.... first, Saul already disobeyed the Lord according to verse 18 ('Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today')... So Saul was disobedient before consulting the medium. Going back to I Samuel 28:5-6 ('When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. He inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets').. this seems to be the case even today for many people. Just because people don't get the answers they want when they want it, they go to someone who they think has the answers. God is the only one who has the answers and when He doesn't choose to reveal an answer, it's for a reason. Part of having faith is patience. Saul apparently had a lack of faith since he had to consult a medium, which he had originally expelled in verse 3. He was depserate. This does not mean what he did was right.

As for the spirit of Samuel.... Saul did not actually see it, only the medium did according to verses 13-14. It is not beyond God to do anything He wants but you have to wonder why Saul did not see the spirit. And possibly because this was all Old Testament stuff (before the Holy Spirit inhabited believers), God had a reason for specifically allowing this medium to do what she did. Now since the New Testament, the teachings of Jesus Christ speak of fortune telling, witchcraft/sorcery as something demonic as it says in Acts 16:16-18 and Acts 19:13-20.

In His Name,

Martha

BibleBeliever
10-11-01, 11:37 AM
Questian,

What I said about God NOT asking somoene to sin to do His will is very true. A burndt offering was not a sin (when offered to GOD). God does test us or allows us to be tested (1 Coronthians 10:13). God did not ask Abraham to commit a sin.

In our modern time we see people thanking God for something they received but they received in out of sin and it truly didn't come from God. For example, a few people who have won lotteries or big jackpots here in Las Vegas, 'thank God' for it and feel God was telling them to gamble so they could get the money to buy that big house they've always wanted, etc. Well, gambling is a sin and God hasn't told anyone to go spend His money to make more money. Gambling is a lack of faith. A person who gambles does not trust that God will provide for him/her so he/she takes things in their own hands and tries to get rich quick on their own terms, bypassing faith in God.

Or someone has a dream and says God told them to go steal that stereo they've always wanted. God doesn't provide or function using sin, period. God has His reasons for doing things and I am not here to explain His mind but I know a few basic charactoristics and asking us to do something that contradicts what Jesus Christ says in the Bible - is not a charactoristic of God.

In His Name,

Martha

questian
10-11-01, 12:16 PM
BB,
Whether Saul was disobedient is not the issue here. The bible says the spirit WAS SAMUEL, not a demon or the Holy Spirit. You said ghosts are ARE demons. You also said in an earlier post that good angels are all servants of God. Doesn't God use Satan and his minions for his purposes also? (Eden serpent, Job, temptation of Jesus, Judas' betrayal, Peter's denial, etc.) As far as the OT is concerned, I can cite several instances where the "Spirit of the Lord" came upon individuals.

The difference between tempting and testing is a matter of semantics. Either way, the motivation is to see whether the subject will stand firm or be swayed.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

BibleBeliever
10-11-01, 12:47 PM
Hey what can I say... people are on tv making money because they are talking to the dead and it is big business to try and summon ghosts, etc. My whole dang point with posting the original message was to let people know the truth about these so called psychics and ghosts. So if you and everyone else want to believe that the psychic hotline is real and what's his name on tv who talks to families' dead relatives is a 'spirit of the Lord', and these phony evangelical shows where everyone's healed after they pay a sum of money, fine. There are a lot of Christians being deceived by this and I was only trying to point out a very simple statement in Acts 16:16.

Audious everyone!

Brandan
10-11-01, 01:02 PM
Hey, calm down now, there is no reason to be upset... ok?

questian
10-11-01, 01:05 PM
Did I say something offensive?

Brandan
10-11-01, 01:12 PM
I can't see that you did...

Kathleen
10-11-01, 04:03 PM
Hey Biblebeliever,

My friends who have regular 'guests' are Christian. Does this mean anything? All family members have experienced things...everyone excluding the in-laws residing in the house. Wierd? It's wierd because one in-law is a non-practicing greek orthodox..actually he's an atheist and the other in-law is Catholic..they don't see the ghosts.

Thanks for the info!
God Bless You

Andrew
10-12-01, 03:00 AM
Unless we know our rights in Christ and have a true revelation of the power of the blood of Jesus, the demons are just going to hang around. We are destroyed becos of a lack of knowledge not becos of a lack of good intentions.

So just having Christians in a haunted home is not going to make much of a difference.:)

Kathleen
10-12-01, 09:30 AM
Hey....Andrew!!!


Unless we know our rights in Christ and have a true revelation of the power of the blood of Jesus, the demons are just going to hang around. We are destroyed becos of a lack of knowledge...not becos of a lack of good intentions
So are you basically saying that the Christians in that home are lacking knowledge of some kind??? This is very interesting to me. So then my guess with what you are saying, is that if at least one of the family members had a true revelation of God...this wouldn't happen in that house at all? They wouldn't hang around?


So just having Christians in a haunted home is not going to make much of a difference
I was clarifying that they are Christian because BibleBeliever asked me if they are Christian! I was hoping for her input but she hasn't gotten back with a response..but I appreciate your input.

Thanks..God Bless You:)

Andrew
10-12-01, 09:16 PM
Yes, Kathleen,

basically i'm saying that the blessings of Christ dont fall automatically on our laps just becos we are Christians.

a clear example is divine health. why are so many Christians still falling sick like the world does. ie when the flu bug comes around, you get it like everyone else - just waiting for your turn. it not supp to be like this. their falling sick doesnt have anything to do with whether they love God enough or not, but with not knowing their rights in Christ - that Christ bore all their sicknesses and pain (not just sin) on the cross 2000 years ago. hence i say a lack of knowledge, not good intentions.

likewise in a haunted home, if the Christians there dont know anything about casting out demons by the power of the Holy Ghost, it wont make much of a difference to the atmosphere.

and to live in "harmony" with these spirits shows immaturity too. what is the spiritual head of the house doing about it? he is supposed to be the gatekeeper. he shld not tolerate such nonsense. how can u expect the Holy Ghost to share your home with some ghosts? one has to go. so the spiritual head is not doing his job. perhaps he doesnt know any better so these demons take advantage of ignorance and remain.

now, knowing is also not enough in the sense that head agreement or mental assent is not enough. you have to really believe in your heart. it has to be rhema or revelation. and then you will act with power and authority.

God bless!

Pilgrim
10-13-01, 01:16 AM
I agree that there demons/fallen angels that masquerade as departed spirits, example "Samuel" in relation to Saul. BUT:

#1 Do you believe that when a human being dies his/her spirit goes somewhere ie heaven, hell or purgatory? If you do then, you give a basis for contact and influence. The bible says that when you are dead, you are dead till the resurrection......nice and clean is'nt it?

#2 Lazarus when resurrected did not come back with some account of either heaven or hell. But many of today's near death experience accounts do and they even use them to convert people to Christianity.

#3 The head of the Anglican Church goes on Marian pilgrimages. Who is Mary's apparition but a demon. Now if you believe in departed spirits, how can you argue that it is not Mary! The current Pope had dedicated his Papal office to Mary because he believes that Agca Khan's bullet missed his head when he bent down to greet a little girl and was drawn lower down by a picture of Mary on the girl's lapel. So, do you believe that some church leaders are led by devils?

Andrew
10-14-01, 07:41 PM
Pilgrim,

When a Christian dies he's immediately with the Lord. Paul said that to be absent in the body IS to be PRESENT with the Lord. How can that be true if your spirit remains in the grave?? Also, rem Elijah was taken up to heaven.

Lazarus was b4 the cross. you need to rightly divide the Word. - OT and NT

I dont believe in Mary or "her ghost". She's a sinner saved by grace and is in heaven now.

Pilgrim
10-15-01, 06:29 AM
Andrew, please let me have refences that says we have after death, a spirit bearing our specific personality.

As regards Paul's 2 Cor 5:

"Being clothed with our house from Heaven" means taking on immortality at the resurrection after which we can be with Christ face to face.....thus being present with Christ. Why do we interpret this that we will be immediately with Christ?

Elijah was taken without seeing death. Moses was resurrected and in Heaven. At the end of time there will be many who will be taken without seeing death. But this does not in anyway prove that there is life immediately after death before the resurrection. Please show refences that prove immediate life after death.

That there is no life till after the resurrection totally negates the possibility of a deceptive "Mary" spirit. It tells us clearly that it is futile to try contacting the dead. It protects you from fear of purgatory and eliminates this major Catholic fearful teaching

Andrew
10-15-01, 10:51 PM
Pilgrim,

Pls understnd first that I'm totally against contacting spirits of the dead (not that it's possible anyway) and purgatory. The former is witchcraft/occultic and an abomination to the Lord. Mediums and witches (or even "Christians") engaged in such wicked acts are simply talking to obliging demons, not spirits of those who have passed on. And the teaching of purgatory is just pure heresy to me.

When a person dies, he either goes to heaven to be with the Lord if he is a Christian; or he goes to hell if he is unsaved. Eitherway, we who are alive cannot contact them or call up their spirits to talk to them. The mediums who claim to be able to do this are simply calling up demons who pretend to be the spirit of a dead person so as to keep those who do such things in the erroneous belief that the dead can be contacted, and to mislead them further.

As for scripture, I've already given it to you. To be absent in the body (die) IS to be present with the Lord. The keyword here is "IS". This to me is already very clear.

Perhaps you'll see better where I'm coming from when i say that "I am a spirit (the real me) and I live a body/house/shell and I have a soul (mind, emotions, will)" When I die, I step out of my body/shell to be with the Lord. eg when Stephen "died" he said "God receive my spirit". My spirit was recreated or made alive when I was born again. My soul/mind/will had to be renewed by the Word of God daily since then. My body, though still imperfect becos of the fall,. will be fully redeemed at the rapture ie I will have a new body like Christ.

and how can you say that we have no life after death until after the resurrection? Did God not give us eternal life the moment we believed? It is not given the moment you are resurrected from your grave.

God bless

Pilgrim
10-16-01, 10:15 AM
The question is not how you would like to look at it. The question is how can you prove it from scripture. In 2 Cor 4:14 " Knowing that he which up the Lord Jesus shall raise us up also.....". Now, this verse clearly says that we shall be resurrected just like Jesus! Also just like Lazarus.

Sure we receive eternal life even now! But we still do die. The question is when we die what happens according to scripture?

Now we also Know that upon death, Jesus did not get spirited away. He said to the thief, "today, you shall be with Me in paradise", yet He was not there till days after! We cannot rely on just an "is" or this thief argument either. So, clear references please. Stephen said "receive my spirit" . But is he now resurrected? When is the resurrection.......not until the last trumpet! See Thess. So, where is Stephen now?

Andrew
10-16-01, 11:16 PM
Pilgrim,

If you insist on believing that Christians dont go to heaven when they pass on but instead remain in some in-between state in some nether world until the resurrection than that's up to you.

I've already given you the scripture earlier that to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord. If you think this means something else and not what it clearly means, than there's no point debating anymore.

Also, when Jesus told the thief that he would be with Him in paradise that same day, it happened just as Jesus said it would. They both went to Abraham's bosom/paradise. This is where the righteous go when they die in the OT. When Christ arose He brought those in Abraham's bosom to heaven. (Now we're moving into the NT/NC) At the rapture/resurrecrtion we will have new bodies. Please rightly divide the Word. There is an OT and NT.

The point is not that i dont want to give you scriptures but that your direction and interpretation are incorrect to begin with.

Pilgrim
10-19-01, 07:01 PM
Abraham must have a ver big bosum.....this reference because it in an impossibllity is allegorical. In the rich man/ poor man story, the rich man is burning in hell and the poor man is in Abraham's big as heaven bosum. Anyway the heat is so hot that the guy in hell asks for the poor man to dip his finger in some water and wet the rich man's tonge. Firstly it's a stupid thing to do because it has no effect.....the passage is to show that it is really HOT. Secondly, it cannot be done.....imagine that hell is only an arm's length from Abraham's bosum, pretty hot place too. IT is an allegory.

Bible references:

# Acts 2:34 " For David is not ascended into the heavens" .
# Luke 14:14 " You shall re rewarded at the resurrection of the just..." not when you die but at the resurrection. Same time as when David will be rewarded.
Eccle 9:5, 6, 10 "....the dead know not anything...". when you are dead you are dead until the resurrection.
Psalms115:17 " The dead praise not the Lord...." If you were dead and immediately in heaven, you would say " Praise the Lord" So, not until the resurrection

Andrew
10-23-01, 09:02 PM
It seems like you do not intend to rightly divide the Word
mixing OC texts with NT texts and lumping everything together.

This will be my last post to you.

Debbiek
10-29-01, 05:18 PM
Martha, I agree with you wholeheartedly about ghosts, fortunetellers etc. But you are insulting and know nothing about Catholics. Bet I know YOUR denomination. For your information, Mary was "taken up", to heaven unlike anyone else except Christ. Read your Bible. Catholics are under some wrong impressions just as your denomination is. They do not worship idols, they are taught they are not always worthy to pray directly to God, so they use a mediator, or intercession, and ask Mary to ask God for them. I can't believe anyone believes Catholics worship statues. Do you have a knick-knack in your home, or stained glass windows in your church? Do you worship them? STOP ACCUSING & INSULTING OTHER CHRISTIANS & SPREADING GOSSIP. It goes against the Bible. You don't believe in miracles? You think the devil is making the statue of Jesus' holy mother bleed in every case? Get a grip. There have been many Catholics holier than you. A Catholic is a Christian of a different denomination than you. THey arn't anymore possessed or oppressed by demons than your denomination. debbie

Debbiek
10-29-01, 05:54 PM
Kathleen, You have asked the most important question a Christian can ever ask. Regardless of our differences in denominations, our beliefs in end time prophecies, spiritual gifts, what is a sin, etc, the most important thing a Christian needs to know is what YOU desire to know. Just as our soldiers in the Middle East have to continually study their enemy, the Christian is also a soldier in a war. We must know about our enemy or else we are doomed to fail. Any professional military soldier will tell you he is doomed unless he studies his enemy. Satan & his army of demons are Christians' enemy, & they seek our destruction. Read what the BIble tells you about them. Have your friends get rid of anything demonic in their home: ouija boards, gargoyle statues, alien stuff, dungeons & dragons game, demonic artwork, horoscope stuff, harry potter stuff, witchcraft books, tarot cards, ghost stuff on their web site etc. THen they can have someone perform an exorcism on their home. A Catholic priest, a charismatic person, etc. I believe that only a Christian should say quotes from the Bible or else you such as," In the name of Jesus Christ begone". You have no idea how many demons there are or of their power, once may not work. And they came there invited by someone or by way of the above type of items. Terrible tragedies befall people who associate with demons, whether they know it or not. God bless you Kathleen & try to get your friends saved/ born again. luv, debbie

blackhaw
10-29-01, 05:57 PM
Debbiek:
I do not want to imply that this is an answer for Martha but I think some Catholics do worship idols. I do not think that is what the Chruch teaches itself but I have seen many catholics pay more attention to a saint or Mary then Jesus. Yes, there have been Catholics more holier than me and some that are less. (that is as far as sanctification) But all Christians are justified so we are all holy. SO we all are worthy to come into God's presence. See he made us worthy so that we could come directly to Him and not need a mediator. (accept J.C.) I do not know what is causing staues to bleed or anything like that. I know some are just natural phenomenoms and people project their views on things like that. For instance I have heard of people seeing Mary in the frost on the refrigerated section doors at conveince stores. I just do not know why God would want to do that kind of thing. Also do you believe " Mary was "taken up", to heaven unlike anyone else except Christ." If so can you show me that in scripture? It seems like you said it was in there becasue the next sentence was "Read your Bible" Sorry for all the rambling. Just some of my thoughts on what you said.

We could start a thread on MAry and prying to the saints if you want.
Blackhaw

Christ_†_Alone
10-29-01, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Debbiek
For your information, Mary was "taken up", to heaven unlike anyone else except Christ. Read your Bible.

Since the Written Word of God is the true Christian's final authority in matters of truth, please share with us book, chapter and verse, where we can read about Mary being taken up to heaven.

Looking forward to your reply...

Christ_†_Alone
10-29-01, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by blackhaw
Debbiek:
We could start a thread on MAry and prying to the saints if you want.

There is one already, in Cultology.

blackhaw
10-29-01, 06:09 PM
maybe we thn could take this to that thread if Debbiek wants to discuss it more.
Later,
blackhaw

Debbiek
10-29-01, 07:02 PM
I am sorry. I was wrong. I cannot find it in the Bible. The assumption of Mary is not in the BIble as far as I can find.PLease forgive me for my confusion. I have never met any Catholic that worships idols, and I know I don't need someone to pray to God for me, but some people dont think they are worthy. NOne of us has any right to Criticize other Christian denominations, including me. There are some pretty far out obsevations on here, but the only criticisms I see is of Catholics and they are Christians. You might want to read Romans 14:1-4, or Matthew 7 for the proper ettiquette towards Christians of other beliefs. You want to talk about BUddists worshipping statues go ahead, they arn't Christians. And WHY would satan cause a cross of Jesus to bleed as Martha claims? well satan must be dumber than I thought. If your denomination/church makes fun of any other Christian denomination you need to find another church since yours isn't abiding by the scriptures above. debbie

blackhaw
10-29-01, 07:19 PM
I am a Baptist. Sothern Baptist in fact. We, as a denomination, do some pretty stupid things but my faith is not in my denomination it is in God. Southern Baptists just have the closest theology to what I believe. As far as Catholics being Christians, I think there are many that are. Not all but not all Baptists are either. (Here I might be in a minority though because I believe Catholics are Christians) Anyways, I will read your passages tonmight but I do not think that we can't criticise other Christians. Paul did it. He called it encouragement though. I think sometimes the spirit of some Christians is more of a making fun of then of encouragement. If I souned like I was just making fun I am sorry i was just trying to encourage. Again I will read your scripture tonight but know that I was not trying to make fun of Catholics but just trying to understand what and why they believe what they believe and discuss it but not make fun of it.
I hope all this made sense in the way I wanted it to.
i have to go home.
Blackhaw

Andrew
10-29-01, 08:10 PM
Dear Debbie,

There's no such thing as believers not being "holy" enough to pray to God. People come to this conclusion when they are sin conscious. The Bible calls that an "evil" conscience and God doesnt want us to have that conscience. But if one wants to start talking about sin (how much or how little we have of it) it becomes self-righteousness straight away and we all fall flat at the end of the day becos if God marks our transgressions who can stand?. ie if b4 we can come to God we must check how holy we are, if that's the way to approach God, then nobody would qualify against God's perfect standards, not even priests or pastors.

Righteousness, holiness, sanctification are all gifts. More than that, they are a person - Jesus Christ our Lord. So one either has it or not. There are no degrees of it.

As long as you are a born again, and have Jesus in you or you in him, you are perfectly righteous, holy and sanctified inGod's eyes, not becos of who you are but whose you are. Not becos of what you have done but what Christ has done in you. Not becos of what's in you but who is in you.

That's the reason why God encourages us to come BOLDLY to his throne when we pray. Becos he sees us in the perfection of his Son. Becos he sees the blood in us.

And that's why as sons and daughters of God we can cry out "Abba! Father!". We dont always have to pray in a low serious, holier-than-thou voice: " Oh God most high, Almighty King of the universe..."
We can simply jump onto his lap and say "Daddy God" or "Papa God". That's the kind of relationship he wants with us.

The Holy Spirit on purpose left the word "Abba" untranslated. It is actually Aramaic (a dialect of Hebrew) for "papa" or "daddy" to the Jews. Notice the word doesnt require teeth to pronounce. Just like "mama" or "papa" a baby without teeth yet can easily pronounce it.

If God want us to have that kind of closeness to him (faith comes easily when you learn to pray with that attitude) and has opened the way for it to be done thru Christ Jesus, then can you see why we dont need a "Mary" or anyone else (in heaven) to pray on our behalf? (the only mediator is our elder brother/high priest Jesus)

Can you then see that it is wrong to say that we are not holy enough to pray to our Abba God - for that wld be dishonouring what Christ has done for us. Only the devil doesnt want you to have that close relationship with your Father God. He wants you to feel disqualified.

God bless.

Debbiek
10-29-01, 08:26 PM
ANDREW, YOU MISSED THE POINT TOTALLY. I am not Catholic. I am a born again non denominational saved Christian. I defend other Christians. I was trying to make others understand why some Catholics believe the way they do. IT IS NOT MY PERSONAL BELIEF. I PRAY TO GOD MYSELF. BLACKHAW UNDERSTANDS & IS A COMPASSIONATE MAN. TY BLACKHAW. TY ANDREW FOR YOUR INTEREST. LOVE DEBBIE

Debbiek
10-29-01, 08:40 PM
I'm new at this site. I originally posed a question here, then had to edit it, realizing i was ruining the original thread. BUt if anyone can help answer my question under theology i would be grateful. SORRY DEBBIE

Kathleen
11-03-01, 11:04 AM
Thank you for your info and help Debbie.

It's hard for me. I mean, how could I go about helping without seeming too pushy? I can't go in their and clean out their house...haha..imagine that?! It's really hard with tough characters..very defensive. Well I'll continue praying for them for the time being...we'll see what happens! (they have those gargoyle robot figurines..does that count?)

Thanks & God Bless You!:D

Debbiek
11-03-01, 04:33 PM
Kathleen, All you can do is give them the facts. It's up to them to clean out their own house, you r right u cant do it 4 em. Usually an educated person who isn't Christian responds well to factual evidence. For example, if they have a college degree ask them if they had to study in that field to learn? Just as a doctor has to learn about medicine, your friends need to be educated about what they are doing. Present it in that way, such as, "Well if it was any other matter you would do research & educate yourself instead of trial & error". Make them admit they know nothing about satan or demons. Point out their lack of knowledge on the subject," OK, how do you tell the diference between a ghost, angel, & demon?". Prepare Biblical scripture in advance, print it out, etc. that tells about the devil, demons, sorcerers, horoscopes(astrologers), spirits, demon possession, how satan operates, etc. Tell them that tragedy befalls people who surround themselves with demons & if they don't know the difference it's an uneducated guess & they are taking a big risk of being wrong. If they arn't Christian they can still educate themselves. In fact, discovering that the devil does exist, is so frightening it leads people to Christ, but in NO WAY am I suggesting such horror be so thoroughly researched. So they should research it, but not too much.Sometimes people have greater respect for a stranger's knowledge than their own friend's knowledge. Bring a charismatic person over to their house who casts out demons . Not much else I know of you could do besides pray for them, convert them, & get rid of the stuff yourself. But they could always go get more, so it wouldn't resolve anything. If they want to remain uninformed about their trial & error trip, then you could buy them some crucifixes & archangel statues. Don't know if it would help any, but it sure couldn't hurt. They are very fortunate to have you as a friend Kathleen. Love, Debbie.... and good luck

Word Walker
11-06-01, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by Debbiek
For your information, Mary was "taken up", to heaven unlike anyone else except Christ. Read your Bible.

Sorry for being off topic. Where does it say this in the Bible? I won't say anything more on the subject, just curious that's all.

Word Walker
11-06-01, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Debbiek
I am sorry. I was wrong. I cannot find it in the Bible.

Ignore my last post.

Word Walker
11-06-01, 04:46 PM
I don't know if anyone has covered this already as I didn't read all the messages back to the beginning.

I was wondering if anyone has heard of John Edwards? I also wanted some opinions on what he does. I already have one but I would like to hear from others.

Debbiek
11-07-01, 04:37 PM
Word Walker, If you would have read further posts in that category, you would have read my apology. Sorry again, Debbie

Debbiek
11-07-01, 04:44 PM
Word Walker, If you are talking about Johnathan Edwards, the Yale graduate, theologian, naturalist, Calvinist, etc, yes I am aware of some of his works from 1700's. Actually a phenomenon occurred for at least a 60 mile radius here on 11/3/01 & it was he who knew what it was. Present day DNR officials announced on local news stations they didnt know what it was. lol. (Floating spider webs= the migration of the woodland tree type spider.) There is a web site dedicated to his works. DEbbie

Brandan
11-07-01, 05:01 PM
I love Jonathan Edwards.... You can find his works here: http://www.ccel.org/e/edwards/

I particularly like his sermons,

Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God
http://www.ccel.org/e/edwards/sermons/sinners.html

God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
http://www.ccel.org/e/edwards/sermons/gssm.html

And have read through much of his famous book, "Religious Affections."
http://www.ccel.org/e/edwards/affections/religious_affections.html

blackhaw
11-07-01, 05:10 PM
Word Walker,

You are not talking about Johnathan Edwards from the 1700's. You are talking about John Edwards. That is the guy on the Sci Fi channel that suopposedly communicates with the dead right? I heard on the radio once that the people that go on his show fill otu a questionare befoer the show begins. i beliee it because I heard it on one of these shows that believe in that kind of stuff. the guy who said it was one of those guys who was mad at he false people that are out there not doing the real thing. If he does not do it it still has been shown many times how people like him use psychology and other things to get people to believe them. Like they bait the person. Like he would say something like "Does the ltter P have any signifigance to you?" If they say no he drops that and goes on to something else. If they say yes then he investigates further by saying something like "I see a relatives name or someones name that is very close to you." It is never very clear. By doing things like this He can gt the information out of the sucker without knwing that they gave them the information. So He is just another of a long line of charlatons.

The real cool guy is that magician (forget his name) who just walks up to people and does tricks for them. He is really good. One of his main tricks is that He levitated. It looks so real. He says it is fake though. Which is cool. I do not mind seeing a magic show if evryone knows it is fake. It is just cool howpeople can make it look like they are really doing it.
blackhaw

Brandan
11-07-01, 05:12 PM
No No No! Jonathan Edwards was the greatest American evangelist EVER!

blackhaw
11-07-01, 05:15 PM
Johnathatn Edwards was a great christian thinker but i think there is a guy named John Edwards on the Sci fi channel. i think that is who he is talking about. That would make sense in a ghost thread. I guess we will have to wait until Word Walker tells us who he is talkign about. carl

Brandan
11-07-01, 05:16 PM
hehehe :D

Debbiek
11-07-01, 05:47 PM
I agree with Kermie & Blackhaw: Johnathan Edwards from 1700's was fantastic, & the John Edwards of today is an obvious fake.... Debbie

Twiggy
12-28-01, 11:11 PM
How does one open their lives up to demons except for the obvious: witchcraft, ouiji boards, and seances?

I had a dream that I was surrounded by 3 demons -- all in different forms. One of them was actually attached. When I woke up everything was normal and there was no evidence of realness to that dream.

I do know the day before, I met a lady who had "something about her". I asked her if knew God because she appeared to be someone at peace with herself. But then I looked at more closely, her pupils were dilated and her eye color was strikingly wild almost like cat eyes.

She said, "Ah, yes God..." Then I asked her what church she went to. She said she had her own connection to God and that as long as one isn't concerned with what everyone else is doing they will be alright. :eek: Then she left. I then thought she might have had some demonic influence in her life.

I'm not sure how my meeting with her had anything to do with my dream. I guess I'm asking do demons hop from one person to another like fleas from one animal to another looking for an entrance?

Debbiek
01-02-02, 01:17 PM
No demons don't hop around like fleas That I KNOW OF, from person to person. But check the Bible for exorcism examples. A good soldier knows his enemy. Sure there are many ways you can be oppressed or demon possessed. Keep in mind that they have little use for any one who doesnt care if they go to hell or not, therefore they are more devoted to harming Christians. There are 2 ways of a demon entering a human: invitation & allowing. To invite a demon is by withcraft, Ouija boards etc as you mentioned. "ALLOWING" is by leaving the door open for them to come in. Such as you can "invite" a thief to your home, or you can just leave the door to your home wide open & the thief will enter UNinivited anyway. So when you leave your mind open, the door is open. If your mind is a blank from drugs , alcohol, seances, meditation, astral projection, hypnotism, etc, the door is open & the thief can come on in. If you arn't "minding the store", if you arn't "on duty", if the "lights are on & no one is home" you are ALLOWING yourself to be demon possessed. The most common way a Christian is possessed today is by the practice called, "let go & let God". Other denominations call this practice other things, but it is commonly used in charismatic churches to enable God to give the person with their door open, the gift of tongues. Only satan needs a Christian to open the door for him to do his work. My God doesnt need the front door of my house to be open in order for Him to enter. Please do not think I am slammimg the Holy Spirit's gift of tongues. I am not. I am slamming satan's copy of it. I am slamming the practice of "intentional total abandonment of the mind " in churches. God doesn't need our help to give us anything He "wills" us to have. @@@ As far as your dream goes, I think it's from God. God gives me dreams which are not like yours, but He shows me what the devil has planned for the future to a certain degree. So I think God showed you what the the devil is doing to you. Maybe 2 are oppressing you and one is possessing you,(the attached one). The stomach area is the solar plexis which is taught by spiritualists to be the entry point for total abandonment of the mind "spirits" or "guides". (we know them as demons). So possibly "where" it's attached is a sign of "how" you got it. You may have the gift of discernment which you noticed the woman you met has a demon & she may have noticed one in you as well. I have also heard recently of a religious demon called "Jezebel" which disrupts Christians, check it out, sorry I don't know any more about it. Go see someone who does exorcisms. I will say a prayer for you. Love, Debbie

Dr. Szo
01-09-02, 12:46 AM
Fotune tellers are indeed a problem. They are distractions, meant to divert souls in another direction until the tool becomes a crutch to people who use them. And this, I'm sorry to say, has often distracted many Christians as well, especially when in despair to solve personal problems. It is what happens to some when they do not know how to lean on the pillars of truth instead.

Blessings,
Dr. Szo

Corbin
01-09-02, 02:18 AM
Originially posted by debbiek

Tell them that tragedy befalls people who surround themselves with demons & if they don't know the difference it's an uneducated guess & they are taking a big risk of being wrong.

What evidence could you possibly have to support that idea? If you took 1000 people, and 500 of them had many demonic things, (dungeons and dragons, aliens, monsters), and the other 500 lived "demon-free", do you think the demonic people would lead more tragic lives?

That is not what you would find.

These people ARE making an educated choice. They have looked at the idea of "demons, monsters and satan", and completley disregaurded it. They have concluded that it would be proposterous for these things to exist. You can not link any of these things to anything within our objective reality.

How could you possibly hope to prove to people that demons exist? And they roam our planet too??



One more thing, how exactly are "aliens" demonic? I read in an earlier post that they are deemed demonic.

Andrew
01-09-02, 02:56 AM
Corbin,

Perhaps you shld understudy someone who does real exorcisms for a couple of weeks, then you will prob rethink your positions that demons dont exist. *LOL

also, if you think demons dont exist, then you shld also believe that God doesnt exist. since there's no such thing as a spirit realm, and since God is spirit.

just becos you cant see them or sense them dont mean they dont exist.:)

Corbin
01-09-02, 05:45 PM
just becos you cant see them or sense them dont mean they dont exist.

That may be true, but then what reason would you have to believe in them? You must have some indication of their existance.

Dr. Szo
01-09-02, 07:39 PM
Have any of you on this topic string ever had an encounter with a disembodied soul, or a demon? In my work, I have. If you are interested, I'll share what occurred. Meanwhile, here is some information:

Below, the documentation of the child on which the movie was based on:

The Real Exorcist:
http://www.catholic-pages.com/dir/link.asp?ref=19034

Below, a demonic image captured on camcorder. Be sure to examine the work others did on this image to evaluate it.

Captured by a camcord:
http://www.artbell.com/ghosts2.html

Blessings,
Dr. Szo

Andrew
01-09-02, 07:55 PM
Corbin,

Firstly, the Bible talks about them, and Christ empowers believers to cast them out of people who want deliverance. Why wld God tell us to cast out demons if they didn't exist? It all boils down also to whether u believe in the spirit world, which to me is more real than the natural world cos God is spirit, and he spoke the natural things into existence, so guess which is more real?

Secondly, there are tons of evidence and documented testimonies regarding demonic possession and deliverance, and I'm not talking about coffee demons or chocolate demons.

God bless

Corbin
01-10-02, 01:33 AM
Well okay, the bible may speak of demons and spirits and such, however there is no acual observable evidence that we can look at where we can say, "Okay, clearly without a doubt, demons are responsible for that". Sure, we can discuss countless ghost and demons claims, but we will get nowhere.

What exactly do you think demons are responsible for, and what makes you so sure that something else was not responsible for it?

I looked at the links that Dr. Szo posted, and the one where art bell had been overcome by some "mysterious entity". That very much seemed like a poor attempt to boost his ratings. I think many of you will agree with me on this one.

Also, do you really believe that Ouija Boards have some mysterious power? They are made of cardboard and plastic. If demons had the ability to enter your body after you play Ouija, why not possess monopoly, life and parcheese? These games are also made of plastic and cardboard. Can demons only possess pieces of cardboard with certain patterns on them? What stops them from possessing everyone who has a Ouija board? There are millions of Ouija boards out there, and as far as I know, only a handful of people have been "supposedly possesed", and even these claims are quite hard to believe.

What are your thoughts?

Andrew
01-10-02, 03:47 AM
Corbin,

I'll try to answer as best i can.
------------
however there is no acual observable evidence that we can look at where we can say, "Okay, clearly without a doubt, demons are responsible for that".
------------
yes, we dont go around saying that everything unusual is caused by a demon. spiritual discernment is needed. that's why one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is discerning of spirits. When this gift is in operation, you can actually see into the spirit realm, and see how the demon or angel looks like. or you somehow have a knowing as to the nature of the spirit (good or evil)

yes some charismatics are extreme, if you drink coffee every morning they'll say you have a coffee demon and need deliverance. that's being flaky. but then there is the real, like when your guy friend starts to talk in a female voice in a language you know he hasnt learned, like when you need 10 men to hold him down, like when the room he's in suddenly fills up with a strong stench, like when he can't rem that he acted that way. these tell tale signs are also not man made, we take our lead from the Bible. also not all mental cases are demon caused, some are just biological, but i believe a lot a demon caused. why do you think medicine and treament cannot cure them?

the Bible also says that we battle not against physical enemies but principalities and powers/demons. somethings happen becos of whats happening "back stage" in the spirit realm. that's why you can't punch the devil for putting cancer on your mum simply becos he's in the spirit realm and you're not.

-------------------
Also, do you really believe that Ouija Boards have some mysterious power?
------------------
no i dont. but you're looking at the wrong thing. firstly yes, demons can indwell humans as well as animals. you'll find that in the Bible. but where Ouija boards and such are concerned its what the players are doing that is dangerous, not the physical toy itself. in that game you invite or temp the demons to come play with you. you open up doors so to speak. you ask for favours (eg to reveal secrets abt someone), and the information if given dont come free!

perhaps nothing might happen, but why take the risk? we Christians dont do it simple cos such activities are an abomination to the Lord, not becos we're scared of the toy. if you've ever seen and demon possessed boy, i dont think you'd want to be in his shoes. so you see its what the players of the games are required to do. in monopoly, you dont talk to demons or invite them.

Hope that helped

Debbiek
01-10-02, 10:05 AM
I would like everyone to read & participate in the thread Twiggy started In the "Chit Chat" section, titled "sex demons". It is similar to this thread, or at least it started out that way. Corbin I have observed a woman that had 5 voices coming out of her at the same time, all arguing with each other, calling each other foul names. It was like 3 men & 2 women arguing with each other & cussing up an angry storm. The evilness was so thick you could feel it. It wasn't humanly possible. I know no tricks were involved because I worked in a prison at the time, & she was in solitary confinement.

Corbin
01-10-02, 07:24 PM
Thank you for you prompt reply. :)

Originially posted by Andrew

when your guy friend starts to talk in a female voice in a language you know he hasnt learned, like when you need 10 men to hold him down, like when the room he's in suddenly fills up with a strong stench, like when he can't rem that he acted that way.

Well I have NEVER witnessed or heard of such a thing happening ever. I mean, what do you think the odds of such a thing happening are? How many people on this planet do you think ever get possessed? 1 in a million? 1 in 10 million? 1 in a BILLION. These supernatural claims are SOO few and far between, what acual evidence do you have that will show that ANY of these events have occured AT ALL?

also not all mental cases are demon caused, some are just biological, but i believe a lot a demon caused. why do you think medicine and treament cannot cure them?

Could you be more specific? Also, what makes you think that demons could be responsible for mental cases? If you ask any physician about mental illnesses, they will tell you that they are usually due to chemical imbalances of some sort. Usually , does not mean that the rest are cased by demons. There are various other reasons for mental illness that can be explained by the medical and scientific community. There are 100's of drugs in production right now that are able to cure mental illnesses.

Survey Finds 103 Medicines in Clinical Testing for Mental Illnesses (http://www.phrma.org/searchcures/newmeds/mentalillsurv2000/mentalintro.phtml)

New Medicines in Development for Mental Illnesses (PDF file) (http://www.phrma.org/searchcures/newmeds/mentalillsurv2000/mental00.pdf)

Schizophrenia is a disease that distorts the senses, making it very difficult for the individual to tell what is real from what is not real. In many cases, these people will rave on and on about things that do not exist, and things that are just plain silly. In many instances, these people will make reference to God, the bible, and satan. I've seen footage on T.V. about people who say how we are "all doomed", and how "satan will get us all"! Still, these people suffer from a disease, not from being possessed.

And the loss of memory afterwards? Physiological abnormality and/or biochemical irregularity in the brain causing substantial disorder of thought, mood, perception, orientation, or memory -- grossly impairing judgement, behaviour, capacity to reason, or ability to meet the ordinary demands of life.

Corbin
01-10-02, 07:30 PM
Debbiek,

If what are saying is true, then that must have been truly extrodanary to witness, however, again this is an unverifyable claim, which means it holds no more weight than someone telling me they saw a ghost. That's not to say I don't believe you, but it just seems very improbable. If I had seen it with my own eyes, that would be a little different.

Debbiek
01-10-02, 07:50 PM
Actually Corbin it was an unbelieveable experience. I had a friend working that night who was an atheist. I called her up & said,"Well if I could PROVE to you there was a devil, would you believe there was a God?" She said of course. I said "cmon over to solitary." She came over & immediately became a believer in God. Our supervisor brought over a tape recorder & we set it just on this side of the bars, & recorded a half hour of this evilness. She held the muscles in her face differently & didnt look like the same person too much. The doctor wasnt there that night, so she was just classified as having mental problems from the times he saw her. So Andrew was right. All the way everthing he said. I also saw a program on TV about how these schitzophrenics acted, what I found interesting was how one of them went way off the deep end every time he walked past a church. As Andrew said, some mental patients are just really crazy, but a lot of them are possessed. She wasnt the only possession case I saw. From personal experience I can tell you of a person I know who is 35 yrs old & never had a job, on disability from schitzophrenia. Most of them hear voices. He was told by someone that he had a demon in him causing the problem, & they asked his permission to exorcise the demon & he said "no thanks".

Andrew
01-10-02, 10:42 PM
Corbin,

If you really need to see proof with your own eyes b4 you'll believe that there is such a thing as demonic possession (although the Bible talks about it already), then perhaps its best you understudy a pastor or preacher that has this ministry. ie tag along to see for yourself. whether they allow that or not (becos its not a play-play thing) i dont know. but you can try asking. look up your local church and inquire.

We've tried to give you first hand testimonies (ie we heard it from the horse's mouth) but you seem unconvinced.

personally, i wldnt want to witness such things (unless i have too) becos i believe it leaves an awful taste in your soul after that (esp if you dont succeed). and if my faith is not strong, i might just have spooky sleepness nights! *LOL

God bless

Corbin
01-13-02, 05:43 AM
What exactly would a preachor that has this ministry do? Would I witness them perfoming exorcists and such things? Sorry, I am a bit confused as to what I would be doing.

Andrew
01-14-02, 12:01 AM
Corbin,

Well if the preacher allows you to stand there and watch and learn, then obviously you wld witness things you've never experienced b4, like all those things Debbie and I mentioned. And then perhaps you'll start to believe.

The only difficulty i see is that such preachers who do exorcism may not let just anyone come in and watch, as if it were some entertaining freak show, unless of course you've been called into such a ministry (deliverance) and you've been assigned to understudy someone who has the experience.

the alternative is to be at the right place at the right time. eg you go into a church and a real-life exorcism takes place right b4 you. :eek:

Sparrow
03-13-02, 07:33 PM
Hi Everyone,

I don't have time to read the entire thread so some of the things I say may have already been said but I wanted to share my experiences with you.

Before I was saved I was heavily into the occult (not a witch or a satanist or anything - more fortune-telling) and I used to see ghosts now and then.

Since I've been saved, I haven't seen one. I believe that we don't really see ghosts at all. I think ghosts are a demon/spirit that project an image directly into your mind and make you think you've physically seen a ghost when in fact, you haven't. Maybe this is why one person can see a ghost in a room and another can't.

I also used to be able to foretell thing accurately when I was messing around with fortune telling. One time, I read the palm of a girl I went to school with. I could tell she was going to get very, very sick but not die. 2 years later, another friend who was there at the time told me this girl had gotten a form of non-terminal leukemia and was very sick. That still haunts me.

Since I've been saved, it's been prophesised over me that I have a gift as a prophetic intercessor. About 11 months before the plane bombing in New York I was praying in tongues and had an intepretation come through (the first and last time this has happened). I wrote it down and gave it to the intercessors in my church. As it turns out, the message was about the September 11 tragedy - part of it was "as loss for America" and it also mentioned the connection with Germany and the subsequent mosque bombings.

My point is - I believe my fortune-telling was a perversion of my prophetic gift. The difference being that I did hocus pocus to be able to foretell the future before whereas now when God wants to use me Prophetically, He is completely in control of when and where and how.

That's my experience anyway. :)