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Brandan
10-16-01, 06:49 PM
I'm of the opinion that we as followers of Christ are to never use violence. I'm a pacifist to the core (but not a secular one).

I believe Jesus commands us to learn from Him. He is meek, humble, and the perfect example for us.

Therefore, I believe we should do as He DID, and follow Him.

He who wishes to come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me

So, let me ask you this, when is it ok to use violence or "the sword?"

Christ__Alone
10-16-01, 09:39 PM
Well... lol, you and I have gone 'round this mulberry bush before, so for the record, I do believe the Word teaches us to provide for our own, and that includes providing saftey and security in the most practical, base sense.

If a man broke into my house, and went for one of my kids...

If I was walking thru a public park and came across another woman being raped (and it happens in public parks all the time)...

If I was in any position to help someone being victimized in some way, and my using "force" against the person doing the victimizing, was the only way to stop it, then that's what I would do, or at least try to do. I certainly wouldn't want them dead, or even hurt really, but their physical well-being wouldn't be my first concern, STOPPING them, would be.

Maybe that's my flesh talking, maybe it's the mother-bear mentality God places in most mothers, or maybe it's along the same lines as the same reason I make sure the doors are locked at night, the kids aren't out after dark, and they look both ways before crossing the street - the parent's role in providing for the child, as God intended.

Anyway, just a few thoughts. :D (and no, I do not care to debate it, so there :p lol)

Fledge
10-16-01, 09:45 PM
I agree with C_A on this one. I respect other opinions though! I just happen to believe that it is perfectly acceptable to defend myself, my loved ones, my property, my friends, etc...
NOW, if by using reason, logic, threats of calling the police, prayer, "submitting to the bad-guy", whatever...if by doing those types of things I can protect those who may need it...then so be it. On the other hand, there may well come a time when a life is at stake, and I will do all in my power to prevent it.

ALSO, I will also stand up for my beliefs. For example...I do NOT believe in hitting a woman...EVER (I am a male, and males do NOT do that...period, end of discussion).
If I am in a shopping center, theater, wherever...and I see a guy hitting a woman...I will go ballistic. I have done it before, and will do it again.
Not saying that is the RIGHT response, but it has been so engrained into my personality that men don't hit women...so if they have to hit something...fell free to hit me, I'm probably more your size! But...I do hit back...so you might wanna think about it first!!

OK, OK...enough rambling. I'm done now.

Thank you, drive through....

Brandan
10-17-01, 06:53 AM
OK, here goes...

We are not omniscient, and don't know exactly how Divine providence will unfold.

Why do we automatically rule out the possiblity that an attacker would be stunned by our appearance and be caught off guard at a show of love for him? What if we dropped to our knees during the attack and began to pray out loud, "Lord, this person no doubt has a miserable life and has probably been subjected to horrible abuses. I want to love him and show him the love of Jesus Your son. Awaken him now, Lord, to Your Presence with us in this room."

Now, neither of us know the effects of such an extreme action might be. What we DO know, however, that it represents faithfulness to Jesus and loyalty to the way of life He has called us to. You will have called upon God for help and then you cannot rule out some marvelous intervention from Above. In fact, you might expect it. I can appreciate the emotional impossibility you would face in the immediate moment, and that is why we should practice and possibly rehearse such distinctively Christian responses to evil ahead of time. There may be a better response than the one I have suggested. But one thing is for sure, if you love and profess to follow Jesus--you cannot return violence for evil.

Now, let's say for instance the attack scenarios end with several rapes and multiple murders. What do you have to lose then by doing the "absurd" thing out of loyalty to your Savior, who glorified God by making provision for His enemies?

We are not God, and therefore should not play God. We are to be faithful to Jesus, if we are going to profess His name. That should be the non-negotiable--not the protection of our loved ones. I know that is difficult to accept, but unless we do, we have not properly counted the cost of following Jesus.

Luke 14:27, (KJV), And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:33, (KJV), So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Brandan
10-17-01, 07:06 AM
Matthew 5:39
But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Matthew 5:44
But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

Luke 6:27
But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you.

Romans 12:19-21
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

1 Peter 3:9
Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.

James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor?

Christ__Alone
10-17-01, 07:36 AM
Kermie, fine, go ahead, ASK nicely, MAKE me get into this discussion again, LOL :D

Only because you phrased the query in a kind way, I'll answer with my views on it (otherwise, I would be forced to nail you with a cream pie, this is the law found in 1Opinions 3:14)

We are not omniscient, and don't know exactly how Divine providence will unfold.

No, we're not, and no, we dont.

Why do we automatically rule out the possiblity that an attacker would be stunned by our appearance and be caught off guard at a show of love for him?

It isn't so much ruling it out, it's probably more of an issue of never considering it, at the time. An attacker might be caught off guard by our love for his soul, but as soon as he re-grouped his thoughts, he might also shoot us too.

In a highly-charged moment such as an impending attack, there is something in us that resorts to the defense mode. Either verbally, or physically, or even psychologically, we ALL have the tendency to go on the defensive.

Is this purely the flesh, and a result of the fall... or is this something God put in us, and as corrupt as we ARE from the fall, it's still there (much like all our other senses)??

What if we dropped to our knees during the attack and began to pray out loud, "Lord, this person no doubt has a miserable life and has probably been subjected to horrible abuses. I want to love him and show him the love of Jesus Your son. Awaken him now, Lord, to Your Presence with us in this room."

Well, that would be an AWESOME thing to do, I can't argue with you there.

Now, neither of us know the effects of such an extreme action might be. What we DO know, however, that it represents faithfulness to Jesus and loyalty to the way of life He has called us to. You will have called upon God for help and then you cannot rule out some marvelous intervention from Above. In fact, you might expect it.

No argument there either.

I can appreciate the emotional impossibility you would face in the immediate moment, and that is why we should practice and possibly rehearse such distinctively Christian responses to evil ahead of time.

In times of peace, most of us (unless we're military with bomber-jet fuel coarsing thru our veins) don't spend a whole lot of time going over attack scenarios in our minds.

There may be a better response than the one I have suggested. But one thing is for sure, if you love and profess to follow Jesus--you cannot return violence for evil.

I think your definition of violence, and mine, might be different. To me, violence is willfully and purposefully taking the initiative to hurt another person, for self-centered reasons.

Restraining or diverting a potential attack on myself, or someone else, doesn't fall into that category for me. For me, that's a simple matter of using physical force to prevent or stop an evil act. Cops around the world do it every day, and for the ones who DO do this very thing, without resorting to excessive use of force, are to be highly commended, and ARE, by the citizens of their jurisdictions.

In fact, maybe a Christian cop would have a better perspective on this, than either of us, since this is an issue they do deal with every day?

We are not God, and therefore should not play God.

I agree there, but if this is the position we're to take about every practical aspect of living in a sinful world, where do we draw the line? Because God is our provider, we would have to apply that comment to every OTHER aspect of life in a fallen world, as well.

Stop locking our doors... God will protect us
Stop paying our bills... God will provide.
Stop looking after our health... God will sustain us.
Stop going to work... God will feed us.
Stop teaching our kids the ways of God... God will find a way to do that.

Taking this to the extreme like that seems like nonsense, because it IS nonsense. We don't do that because we know God has given us a responsibility to take care or look after these things, the best that we are able.

I don't know if the best or proper response is 100% physical, or if it's 100% spiritual... maybe it's somewhere in between, with both aspects included, in their proper place? I'm not really sure.

Just a few thoughts to share :)

Christ__Alone
10-17-01, 08:10 AM
Just an afterthought on things in their proper place...

We know that when the tire blows on our car, it's not time to stop and pray for a new tire, it's time to get out and change it. Or when we run out of milk, we don't sit in the kitchen and pray for a cow, we go to the store and buy some milk

Just like we know when someone is sick and in pain, once their physical needs have been met to ease their pain, then it's time to pray for them for God's hand of mercy to be on them.

Both prayer AND action are part of our lives, when we walk with Him, but these verses in Ecclesiastes make me wonder if NON action taken is exactly what God wills, 100% of the time?

Ecc. 3:

1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

(to me personally, this is more of a powerful statement than the following verses, they just explain in part, "life" but this ONE verse, explains how they all fit in, and why)

2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Just sort of thinking outloud (out-type? lol) about how all things fit into place - since nothing happens without God either ordaining it or allowing it, anyway).

Odyssey
10-17-01, 09:03 AM
How come there are only two choices!? What about every stinkin' chance you get??

:D :D :D :D :D

Grace to you,

jak

jhamrick
10-17-01, 10:44 AM
I honestly think Jesus would want you to do everything you can to help your wife or kids. Maybe do nothing in act towards you, but if someone is harming your children, do everything you can to stop them!

We don't have any account of Jesus doing this in the Bible, but he did act out agressively in the temple that time.

7th
10-18-01, 01:41 PM
...I take these words to heart and quite literally. Christ never spoke lies and he didn't joke or exaggerate about anything he every said so why debate whether or not a Christian should ever use violence. The answer is clearly no. Anyone who can't do what our Lord is asks should him count it against himself as an imperfection to remedy...a sin for which fruits of repentance should be brought forth. Don't deny that you are imperfect never blemish His teachings in order to justify yourself either.

Am I perfect? NO! Will I try to be like Christ? Yes! Will I never use violence to acheive an end? If I do it will be because I failed to obey my Master, like all sins I try to avoid them. He is clear on how we should conduct ourselves...there is no debating that. So when you answer a question like, "Do you think Christian should ever use violence?" answer according to the teachings of Christ. If you are asked, "Do you think you will ever use violence?" answer truthfully and do not try to justify yourself if the answer is not in accordance to The Word. Do not make The Truth appear as a lie so that you can try to avoid a sin being added to your name...one or many makes no difference to The Father...only your love for His Son and your brethren (saved or lost). Do not commit sin by saying you see when you are in fact blind.

Brandan
10-18-01, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by 7th
Am I perfect? NO! Will I try to be like Christ? Yes! Will I never use violence to acheive an end? If I do it will be because I failed to obey my Master, like all sins I try to avoid them. He is clear on how we should conduct ourselves...there is no debating that. So when you answer a question like, "Do you think Christian should ever use violence?" answer according to the teachings of Christ.

AMEN! Well said 7th, and welcome to the forums! :D

7th
10-18-01, 02:07 PM
I posted this story in the "Inspirational Devotional" forum originally but since I read the topic of Christian violence I thought this was relevant. Let me know what you think...


EDIT by Kermie - You can find 7th's story here: http://www.predestinarian.net/showthread.php?threadid=211

universe
10-18-01, 10:39 PM
My answer:

Never.

questian
10-19-01, 01:01 PM
I hate to be nit-picky, but the word violence doesn't differentiate between unprovoked aggression and self-defense or whether it is being used on individuals or inanimate objects. Gotta define the terms. :confused:

7th
10-19-01, 01:06 PM
"...the word violence doesn't differentiate between unprovoked aggression and self-defense or whether it is being used on individuals or inanimate objects..."

Exactly the point. Exactly.

Lts
10-20-01, 07:08 AM
Well in the OT we can see alot of "violence" and some that was even commanded by God to be carried out. So we know at least in the OT there was definitly a time when "violence" was to be used.
Now most people say we are under a new covenant and we are no longer as christians under the law but grace and yes its true but in the NT is there "violence" being used that would be considered ok or right?

The verses I found at least for myself that show me there at times is a reason and condition for "violence" are:

Matt: 21:12-13
Mark: 11:15-18
John: 2:15-17

Jesus in those verses used a violent act to clear out the temple, so there was a good and just reason to use violence in that situation. Now here is the real problem when and how are we as christians to use violence if at all?

God Bless

blackhaw
10-20-01, 07:16 AM
Lts:
Some would say though that Jesus was God so He could have Holy Anger. But we are not God so we do not have that right becasue we are sinful. WE are not Holy so we have no right to show that kind of violence. This is not my view. I am just playing devil's advocate but it is an intersting ethical position.

blackhaw
10-20-01, 07:49 AM
Here is a link to an article in First Things. It is a magazine about Christian Ethics. It talks about if a war can be good or just or not. It goes through a lot of historical Christian thinking on this issue including Calvin.

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0110/articles/cole.html

Brandan
10-20-01, 08:48 PM
Calvin had Michael Servetus burned at the stake, and Zwingli was complicit while the Reformers drowned the Anabaptists! These men should have known better than to commit these evil deeds against other people, PARTICULARLY in the name of the Prince of PEACE!

But, you know what they say.... "The best of men are men at best."

Kings Kid
10-23-01, 10:17 PM
WHEN SHOULD A CHRISTIAN USE VIOLENCE?

I saw an article in "The Journal of Biblical Counseling". The article was called "Understanding Anger" by David Powlison. I thought some of his words were interesting and might fit into this topic. He says:

"Anger is a given; it is natural to human beings in two very different ways. It is natural because we were created in God's image; it is natural because we fell into sin. God created us, in His image no less, with the capacity for anger. He called it very good. In fact, Adam and Eve should have gotten lethally angry when the serpent lied to them about life and death, God, and wisdom. They should have reacted with strong emotions, clear arguments, and violent action. They should have challenged those lies, picked up stones, and killed the serpent. Anger is a good thing built into human nature.

As human beings made and remade in the image of a holy God, we are hardwired with the capacity for anger at wrong, as an expression of love both for God and for those harmed by wrong." (End of quote)

It would seem from this article that Adam and Eve's lack of violence was a sin.

Brandan
10-24-01, 06:15 AM
There is nothing wrong with being angry. It's an emotion that we cannot deny. However, I believe it is WRONG to act on our anger with violence. The Lord said, "vengeance is mine," not ours....

Fledge
10-24-01, 07:57 AM
Just a thought.....

If somebody is attacking, with fists, knives, baseball bat, gun, whatever....
And if I block it, or manage to turn the attack back on them in some way,
Or if I constrain them.
If I use a defensive measure on the attacking person, would that be considered violence?

Obviously if I proceed to beat the dogsnot out them, that would be violent. But simle defensive actions? Violence?

Brandan
10-24-01, 08:11 AM
If you block an attack, I don't see anything wrong with that... At least I can't find Scripture that states that is wrong.... Ducking, running, blocking, hiding, calling for help, preventing an attack through non-violent means, these things are not violent.

Christ__Alone
10-24-01, 08:26 AM
um... 'dogsnot' ?

lol... sorry, but that just struck me as funny :D

Fledge
10-24-01, 08:30 AM
Gotta love dogsnot, huh?
haha

Kermie, then basically, it appears we agree a little more than I originally thought on this issue.
I would hope to never take the offensive against anybody, but I will defend myself or loved ones if the need arises. Hopefully, if all else fails then simple constraint (even if it does inflict pain or slight injury on the person) can well mean saving a life, and I wouldn't hesitate.

NOW, that being said...I could never guarantee that my anger and passions wouldn't get the best of me, and that there wouldn't be dogsnot spilled.

But I hope and pray that it never occurs.

Brandan
10-25-01, 12:42 PM
I was thinking about blocking, and what did Jesus actually mean when He spoke this, "Resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also..."

Are we resisting if we block evil from occurring? If so, does this violate the words of Jesus?

When Jesus was arrested, did He fight off the attackers?

When Jesus was nailed to the cross, did He attempt to block the hammer?

Are we to model the example Jesus gave us?

In the past, when someone would try to hit me, I naturally reacted by ducking or averting the incoming fist from my face. Was this resistance?

I'd like to hear some more thoughts on this subject, and please provide Scripture to back up your thoughts....

jhamrick
10-25-01, 01:12 PM
The violence against Jesus toeards the end of his life was to carry out GOd's will. Is every act of violence a carrying out of God's will?
If so, it would be wrong to get in the way.

Is it possible that somewhere in Jesus' life he did defend himself?

Brandan
10-25-01, 01:22 PM
If you are attacked, it is God's will that you are attacked.... If you die, you die by God's will. If you live, you are living because of God's will. Everything happens by God's will.

jhamrick
10-25-01, 01:38 PM
So absolutely nothing happens out of God's will?

Well, I'll stop worrying about my sins in this case, because it is obviously his will for me to commit them.

Is that right?

Brandan
10-25-01, 01:41 PM
When men sin, it is by God's will. However, that does not take away from your responsibility.... And yes, nothing happens outside of God's will.

jhamrick
10-25-01, 01:56 PM
So when I commit violent acts it is in GOd's will. If I can't stop something from happening, I won't accept responsibility for it. And that would also be in God's will that I wouldn't accept responsibility.

Brandan
10-25-01, 01:59 PM
It doesn't matter if you accept responsibility for it or not, you will be CHARGED with responsibility from God. Responsibility is not accepted, it is charged.

jhamrick
10-25-01, 02:06 PM
But if I absolutely can do nothing about it, why do I care? My outcome will be the same regardless.

Brandan
10-25-01, 02:13 PM
Did I say you could do nothing?

jhamrick
10-25-01, 02:24 PM
How can I do something about it if God has willed it to happen, and there is no escaping God's will?

blackhaw
10-25-01, 02:40 PM
Kermie:

When you say will do you mean God's permissive will? meaning that God could stop your sinning but doesn't because of His will? In other words God could make us all believers and make everyone in the world do whatever He says all the time but it is in His will to let you sin? The difference would be that God willed it to happen. Meaning that God made me sin. That God forced me to lie to my brother the other day. i believe in His permissive will but not in that he directly wills all things to happen.

Brandan
10-25-01, 06:36 PM
A man accused and convicted of murder said to the judge, "I was predestined from all eternity to do it."

To whom the judge replied, "So be it, then I was predestined from all eternity to order you to be hanged by the neck, which I now do."

On one occasion after Dr. Charles Hodge had finished a theological lecture he was approached by a lady who said to him, "So you believe, Dr. Hodge, that what is to be will be?" "Why, yes, lady, I do," he replied. "Would you have me believe that what is to be won't be?"

Do I believe sin is predestined to occur by God? Yes I do.

I believe the two wills (or decrees) of God that apply to this conversation are the following....

1. His effective decrees.

These are the things He himself works, without employing or including the free-agency of man. These things include his creations, miracles, the regeneration of souls, etc...

2. His permissive decree.

God allows or permits man to do the thing decreed without impulsion from God's power. This includes all the deeds of sinful men. In all these results God does not himself do the thing, nor help to do it, but intentionally lets it be done. You might ask then, how then does permissive decree have certain results? The answer is, because God knows that men's natural disposition certainly prompts them to evil. For example, my dog Sadie's nature is to jump in the trash and make a mess (it's a major problem in my house...) If I intentionally leave the door open to the room that contains the trash can that is accessible to her height, I know that she will make a huge mess with the available trash, and I intend to allow it just as clearly as if I had myself led her to the trash can.

Now, for some Biblical examples...

He foreordained Pharaoh's tyranny and rebellion, and then punished him for it.

In Isaiah, He foreordains Nebuchadnezzar's sack of Jerusalem, and then punishes him for it.

In Acts, Judas betrays Jesus by the determinate purpose and foreknowledge of God.

In Romans 9:18, Paul writes, "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."

It is not God who ACTIVELY CAUSES these people to sin. These people are motivated entirely on their own, and God's purpose concerning the wretched result never goes a particle further than this, that in His justice He resolves to let them have their own preferred way.

God decrees every single sinful act that will ever take place. It is man's nature to do so, and by Him withholding his sovereign hand, His will is done. Period. End of Story.

questian
10-26-01, 08:50 AM
If God is omnipotent and refuses to stop evil acts from occuring, then he is by default ruling as a tyrant. I cannot accept such despicable inaction from one who supposedly has the power to prevent innocent people from being victimized. This is the same attitude the Catholic church took in WWII by refusing to protest the Nazi atrocities and why they are still criticized today for their complicity. If people are convicted of being accessories by not reporting their knowledge of a crime, how much more the supposed creator of the universe? How ridiculous! Why then send a Savior to try and save anyone from his infinite wrath? Either God intervenes in the affairs of mankind or he does not.

Brandan
10-26-01, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by questian
If God is omnipotent and refuses to stop evil acts from occuring, then he is by default ruling as a tyrant.
No, God is omnipotent and causes evil acts to occur by withholding His restraining power, man is evil, not Him. He's not the one actively committing sin...


I cannot accept such despicable inaction from one who supposedly has the power to prevent innocent people from being victimized.
As discussed before, it doesn't matter if you accept it or not, this is God's world, not yours.


If people are convicted of being accessories by not reporting their knowledge of a crime, how much more the supposed creator of the universe? How ridiculous!
You're foolishly applying your own self created law to God. Since when does God have to play by your rules? He makes the rules, get over it.


Why then send a Savior to try and save anyone from his infinite wrath?
Because He desired to save some of us wretched fools, and that's what it took according to His rules.


Either God intervenes in the affairs of mankind or he does not.
He does. He prevents mankind from doing evil when He desires. He causes people to do evil when He desires (through His permissive decrees).

questian
10-26-01, 10:02 AM
No, God is omnipotent and causes evil acts to occur by withholding His restraining power, man is evil, not Him. He's not the one actively committing sin...

What are you defining as "sin"? If sin is breaking God's commandments, the bible shows God breaking his own commandments all the time. Therefore God "sins".


As discussed before, it doesn't matter if you accept it or not, this is God's world, not yours.

You're foolishly applying your own self created law to God. Since when does God have to play by your rules? He makes the rules, get over it.



Was not man created in God's image? Are we held to a different standard than he? If we are to show mercy, is not God also to show mercy by preventing evil? This double standard does not bode well for the idea of God being all-loving.


He prevents mankind from doing evil when He desires. He causes people to do evil when He desires (through His permissive decrees).

Using this logic, those poor souls condemned to hell are there because God wants them there. Not a good example of justice.

jhamrick
10-26-01, 11:02 AM
questian,
It is also possible, that God provided a way that every man could be saved, and only his omnipotence and sovereignty allow him to give us choices.

Brandan
10-26-01, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by questian
What are you defining as "sin"? If sin is breaking God's commandments, the bible shows God breaking his own commandments all the time. Therefore God "sins".
God's commandments are given to man, not Himself. If I'm a teacher, and I order the students not to go outside for recess, yet I decide to do it myself, I have not broken the order, have I? No, of course not, because a teacher doesn't HAVE TO ABIDE by the same rules the students do. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?


If we are to show mercy, is not God also to show mercy by preventing evil? This double standard does not bode well for the idea of God being all-loving.
God can do what He desires. On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? (Rom. 9:20)


Using this logic, those poor souls condemned to hell are there because God wants them there.
That's correct. Does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory. (Rom. 9:21-23)

jhamrick
10-26-01, 11:41 AM
I think this topic has gone dangerously off topic. I will say that I think Romans 9 is oft misunderstood.

Now when should a Christian use violence? Idealistacally never.

questian
10-26-01, 12:21 PM
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." Gen 1:27

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. What other reason would this deity have than to provide an audience to applause his feats of creation? The text above shows that mankind is nothing more than a mirror for God to bask in the glow of his vanity. Being a reflection of who he is, would it not offend the almighty to be less than he is? In this case, Satan was truly God's finest creation in that he aspired to be everything God was. Should we not then, as humans, also strive to be exactly like God, even to the extent of executing our righteous judgment on all who fall short of this goal? If God can change the rules of the game, so shouldn't we do the same? Let's condemn to death everyone who doesn't worship him. I know, let's also execute those who don't worship us, either. That way we will truly be in the image of God.

So, back to the original question, when should a Christian use violence?

Answer: Whenever it's useful to advance the faith and bring "glory" to God.
:( :( :(

Brandan
10-26-01, 12:34 PM
You bring glory to God by refusing to use violence, which advances the faith.....

jhamrick
10-26-01, 12:49 PM
'Answer: Whenever it's useful to advance the faith and bring "glory" to God.'

That seems about right

Dskmn
11-07-01, 12:35 AM
kermie, i understand your position, but think about this e.g.:

my family is one that where all the men have served in the military, my great grandfather was fighting in WW2 against the Nazi's, in WW2, countries had to defend themselves, in some cases their is truely no choice...

So my vote goes towards yes, but only in special cases, because, I believe that their are some circumstances where us as humans fail to find a resolution...

Corbin
11-07-01, 05:20 AM
Over our evolution, we have become a much less violent species. We have learned to control our violent outbreaks, and now find other methods of solving our problems, however, it is still buried deep within us, the violent genes. That adrenalyne rush after our hockey game that causes us to go and punch someone, well that is a natural feeling. In some cases, there is very little we can do about this feeling. Many of us, enjoy violence. We enjoy getting in fights! If god was so against violence, then why have we gotten less violent over time? We started out much, much more violent than we are now.

I realise I have failed to address the issue of wars and bombs. Yes, we now possess the inate ability to destroy everyone on the planet 100 times:eek:. Our instincts are not so much to blame for these events, and most of the time our actions are not excusable. Sometimes though, resolution of our problems requires that we become violent. It's in these cases where violence becomes an option.

If someone was going to stab your daughter, and you had the chance to shoot and kill the persone making this attempt, would you do so? Even if you knew that the stab wound would not seriosly injure your daughter. I believe most of you would answer yes. Of course you would shoot the man.

If there was one man who was say, stopping the development of a cancer drug, and the only way to pass the drug, was to kill this man. Would you? Think of how many people you could save if this drug was effective?

Yes, I know I am rambling on and I'll stop now!:p :p :p

Brandan
11-07-01, 06:16 AM
Hi Corbin,

Man naturally tends to lean towards violence. If not for my relationship with God, I would have no problem using violence to advance my cause.... However, I believe I am to be obedient to a higher calling by NOT responding to violence with violence.

Regarding your claim that men have become less violent over time, this simply is not true. More men were killed in World War II than all recent wars put together. Millions upon millions of people have been slaughtered in the name of political advancement. Add to the fact that people in America and around the world are slaughtering their babies by the thousands each week, we have probably witnessed the most violent generation of people in history.

Being 14, and living in a free country, and not encountering much violence in your life, I can understand how you might come to your position. But I can probably guarantee, your entire perspective would be different if you grew up in a violent tribal African, or middle eastern country.

Corbin
11-07-01, 09:52 AM
Add to the fact that people in America and around the world are slaughtering their babies by the thousands each week, we have probably witnessed the most violent generation of people in history.

I take it you're refering to abortions?

Brandan
11-07-01, 10:03 AM
That's right, the industry which thrives on the bloodshed of millions of unborn babies.