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Pilgrim
10-17-01, 07:40 AM
Most Christians these days expect national Israel to be gratfted back and in the 7 years at the end evangelize the world. How on earth can you expect this to happen?

Christ said to Israel...." Your house is left to you desolate" for not accepting Him. And that the Kingdom is given to the gentiles. If we have to regard references to Israel in Revelations as the literal nation of Israel (and not Christians), then " Babylon" in Rev 14 must also mean literal Babylon. But this Babylon is dead and gone in Iraq. So, the Israel referred to in Rev is spritual Israel, true Christians who will be in conflict with spritual Babylon ie false religion.

Can anyone show me how they conclude that Israel will do the job?

Andrew
10-18-01, 03:02 AM
Why not? God is not done with Israel yet.
B4 the church, Israel was. We are the ingrafted branches and have Israel to thank.
How? Easy. The church should not be so proud as to read everything in the Bible as refering to herself only.

The whole chap of Rom 11 talks about this.

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Christ_Ü_Alone
10-18-01, 07:04 AM
Romans 9:

1 ∂ I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 ∂ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
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Gill had this to say about verse 6:

that is, they which are the descendants of the patriarch Jacob, whose name was Israel; or who are of the Israelitish nation, of the stock of Israel, belonging to that people; they are not all "the Israel", by way of emphasis, as in #Ps 25:22

or the "Israel of God", #Ga 6:16, the Israel whom Jehovah the Father has chosen for a peculiar people; which Christ has redeemed from all their iniquities; which the Spirit of God calls with an holy calling, by special grace, to special privileges

the seed of Israel who are justified in Christ, whose iniquities are so pardoned and done away, that when they are sought for they shall not be found, and who are saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation

or in other words, though they are "Israel after the flesh", #1Co 10:18, yet not after the Spirit; though they are by nation Israelites, they are not Israelites "indeed", as Nathanael was, #Joh 1:47

they are Jews outwardly, not inwardly; they have not all principles of grace, uprightness, and sincerity in them: now to these spiritual Israelites, or seed of Abraham, were the word of God, the promises of God concerning spiritual and eternal things made, and upon these they had their effect; and therefore it could not be said that the word of God had taken none effect;

though the whole body of Israel after the flesh were cut off and rejected. Some copies, and the Vulgate Latin version, read, "who are Israelites"; and the Ethiopic version, "they are not all Israel who came out of Egypt".
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I do believe ALL He has chosen will be saved...

Odyssey
10-18-01, 09:55 AM
The physical nation of Israel was just a 'shadow' of the spiritual nation of Israel. When god made his promise to Abram, he showed him two (2) different types of seeds, one natural (the dust of the earth) and one spiritual (the stars of heaven). We learn from Paul that Abraham did not look to his natural seed for fulfillment of god's promise to him, but to his spiritual seed, i.e., Christ and those people of faith as opposed to those of national descent. In other words, 'Israel' has always represented people of faith. And to push the point further, I would add faith in Jesus.

Grace to you,

jak

Andrew
10-19-01, 08:23 AM
We learn from Paul that Abraham did not look to his natural seed for fulfillment of god's promise to him, but to his spiritual seed, i.e.,
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did God not promise him a natural son? did Jesus not come from the line of David and David from Abraham (Mat 1)? in other words, without the natural there wld have been no spiritual.

Israel is not just a forgotten shadow, she is the natural branch and we are in ingrafted ones. God has not forgotten his people.

Brandan
10-19-01, 08:38 AM
Dispensationals see Israel as God's people, and the Church is just a parenthesis in time while God still deals with the national Jews.

Reformed folks see Old Covenant Israel as the Old Covenant Church, and today's church (New Covenant) is just an extension of that Covenant.

I see Old Covenant Israel as a PICTURE of the people of God but not the believing people of God. I understand the Mosaic Covenant to be a legal covenant that demands perfect obedience in order to receive the promised blessings of that covenant. I view the Ten Commandments as the essence of the Mosaic law and not the essence of all of Godís law. I view the the New Covenant as a new and better covenant that replaces the Old Covenant. Therefore, I differ from both Reformed AND Dispensational thoughts. I'm a theological misfit, so to speak....

Romans 11:17-21 (17) But if some of the branches [some Jews by birth] were broken off, and you, being a wild olive [Gentiles], were grafted in among them [became true Jews, or the true circumcision, as Paul says in Romans 2:26-29] and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree [the root of the olive tree is the covenant God made with Abraham and his true descendants, and to become a partaker of this root is to became a beneficiary of salvation, the promise made to Abraham and his descendants that he would be their God and they would be his people; if you are grafted in -if you become a part of true Israel - that's yours], (18) do not be arrogant [you Gentiles] toward the branches [the natural Jews]; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. (19) You will say then [you Gentiles], "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." (20) Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief [so we see that faith is what makes you a Jew or not, which, in view of 2:26-27, means the essence of Law - keeping it in faith], but you stand by your faith [you have a part in this rich root of the promise of God to be your God if you believe in the Messiah, Jesus Christ, as Paul said in Galatians 3:7, "It is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham" - you stand only by faith; that's the essence of being a true Jew and part of the Israel of God]. Do not be conceited, but fear; (21) for if God did not spare the natural branches [Jews have been broken off and condemned for unbelief], He will not spare you either [you can be as deceived as they were about being a true Jew if you try to cling to this tree without the Spirit changing your heart].

Pilgrim
10-20-01, 09:40 AM
Matt 21:43 " The kingdom of God shall be taken from you ( Jewish Israel ), and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Ye the nation was broken off.

Luke 20:9-16 "" He shall come and destroy these husbudsman, and shall give the vineyard to others"
Isa 5:3-7 " For the vineyard of the Lord is the house of Israel"
So, we the gentiles have it. But we are not to boast. Sure the individual Jews who believe may be grafted back in but not the house of Israel.

Now, if this is so, then it is gentile Christians ( generally ) who will stand against " Babylon in Rev 14. The 144000 of Rev are gentile Christians. Spiritual Israel stands against spiritual Babylon. It is not literal Babylon who is the enemy in Rev because it is dead and gone, Hence it is not literal Israel who shall evangelize the world it is spiritual Israel......it is us.

Odyssey
10-21-01, 10:57 AM
Yes and no. The covenant has never supposed to be based on nationality. It was to be based on faith. The problem came when national Israel became focused on obedience to the Law and to nationality. The lost sight of the truth. Therefore god took the kindgom away from them *as a nation* and gave it to the church made up of both jews and gentiles.

Concerning Babylon and Revelation, Babylon was the physical land of Judea and the national Jews and their city and temple of the first century. That was the soon coming judgement--the Roman destruction in AD 70. True Israel has always been those believers of god through the faith of Christ Jesus our Lord. The gospel contiues because of us, as you stated.

Grace to you,

jak