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Brandan
10-22-01, 08:40 AM
http://www.seegod.org/piper_on_disaster.htm

Why I don't say, "God did not cause the calamity, but he can use it for good"

Many Christians are speaking this way about the murderous destruction of the World Trade Towers on September 11, 2001. God did not cause it, but he can use it for good. There are two reasons I do not say this. One is that it goes beyond, and is contrary to, what the Bible teaches. The other is that it undermines the very hope it wants to offer.

First, this statement goes beyond and against the Bible. For some, all they want to say, in denying that God "caused" the calamity, is that God is not a sinner and that God does not remove human accountability and that God is compassionate. That is true - and precious beyond words. But for others, and for most people who hear this slogan, something far more is implied. Namely, God, by his very nature, cannot or would not act to bring about such a calamity. This view of God is what contradicts the Bible and undercuts hope.

How God governs all events in the universe without sinning, and without removing responsibility from man, and with compassionate outcomes is mysterious indeed! But that is what the Bible teaches. God "works all things after the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11).

This "all things" includes the fall of sparrows (Matthew 10:29), the rolling of dice (Proverbs 16:33), the slaughter of his people (Psalm 44:11), the decisions of kings (Proverbs 21:1), the failing of sight (Exodus 4:11), the sickness of children (2 Samuel 12:15), the loss and gain of money (1 Samuel 2:7), the suffering of saints (1 Peter 4:19), the completion of travel plans (James 4:15), the persecution of Christians (Hebrews 12:4-7), the repentance of souls (2 Timothy 2:25), the gift of faith (Philippians 1:29), the pursuit of holiness (Philippians 3:12-13), the growth of believers (Hebrews 6:3), the giving of life and the taking in death (1 Samuel 2:6), and the crucifixion of his Son (Acts 4:27-28).

From the smallest thing to the greatest thing, good and evil, happy and sad, pagan and Christian, pain and pleasure - God governs them all for his wise and just and good purposes (Isaiah 46:10). Lest we miss the point, the Bible speaks most clearly to this in the most painful situations. Amos asks, in time of disaster, "If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it?" (Amos 3:6). After losing all ten of his children in the collapse of his son's house, Job says, "The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD(Job 1:21). After being covered with boils he says, "Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?" (Job 2:10).

Oh, yes, Satan is real and active and involved in this world of woe! In fact Job 2:7 says, "Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head." Satan struck him. But Job did not get comfort from looking at secondary causes. He got comfort from looking at the ultimate cause. "Shall we not accept adversity from God?" And the author of the book agrees with Job when he says that Job's brothers and sisters "consoled him and comforted him for all the adversities that the LORD had brought on him" (Job 42:11). Then James underlines God's purposeful goodness in Job's misery: "You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord's dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful" (James 5:11). Job himself concludes in prayer: "I know that You can do all things, and that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted" (Job 42:2). Yes, Satan is real, and he is terrible - and he is on a leash.

The other reason I don't say, "God did not cause the calamity, but he can use it for good," is that it undercuts the very hope it wants to create. I ask those who say this: "If you deny that God could have 'used' a million prior events to save 5,000 people from this great evil, what hope then do you have that God could now 'use' this terrible event to save you in the hour of trial?" We say we believe he can use these events for good, but we deny that he could use the events of the past to hold back the evil of September 11. But the Bible teaches he could have restrained this evil (Genesis 20:6). "The LORD nullifies the counsel of the nations; He frustrates the plans of the peoples" (Psalm 33:10). But it was not in his plan to do it. Let us beware. We spare God the burden of his sovereignty and lose our only hope.

All of us are sinners. We deserve to perish. Every breath we take is an undeserved gift. We have one great hope: that Jesus Christ died to obtain pardon and righteousness for us (Ephesians 1:7; 2 Corinthians 5:21), and that God will employ his all-conquering, sovereign grace to preserve us for our inheritance (Jeremiah 32:40). We surrender this hope if we sacrifice this sovereignty.

Strengthening Your Confidence in Christ Our King,

Pastor John Piper

Brandan
10-22-01, 09:10 AM
For those of you who voted no in the above poll, please post Scripture that supports your belief. Thanks. ;)

Andrew
10-22-01, 09:25 PM
God sure as heaven DID NOT cause the Sept 11 attacks.

The article is written as though Christ did not die! OT scriptures are given as support without taking into account the finished work of Jesus. OC and NC scriptures are just lumped together without rightly dividing the Word.

Yes God is a just God, he will punish sin. Yet his heart leans towards love. That he is love and prefers love than judgement is manifested in his sending his Son, in the NC. Yet he had to do away with the OC justly, that's why Jesus had to die in our place.

The point most Christians miss is that Christ bore that wrath of God that was supposed to fall on us. So if you say that we are sinners who deserve hell, I'd say yes that's absolutely true, BUT Christ is our substitute, the chatisement of our peace was upon him (Isa 53:5)

So the wrath of God had already fallen on Jesus - fully and completely. So to say that God still punishes/causes us with things like the Sept 11 attacks is to deny the cross.

Consider:
2 Cor 5:18 And all things are of God, who HATH reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and HATH given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, NOT IMPUTING their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord WILL NOT impute sin.

From here we can see that God is not even imputing the trespasses of the world against them, how much more his children! Why? Becos of Jesus! If we think like that, who do you think gets the glory?

So we are still in a period of God's grace. But a time will come when enough is enough, that God will have to judge the earth for all those who reject his grace and pardon. He will do this not becos he delights in wrath but becos being a just God, he has to judge unrighteousness.

But the time for this wrath is not now, in the period of grace. It will come after the church is raptured, during the seven year tribulation. That's why once we understand the beauty and the finality of Jesus' work on the cross, a pre-trib rapture doctrine is so easy to accept.

Who then caused the Sept 11 attacks? Simple - the devil - for he comes to steal, kill and destroy. (Jn 10:10) But Christ came to give us abundant life.

Chastisement? NO!
Some might argue that God "chastises" those he love. But a proper study of that famous yet misunderstood chap found in Heb 12 will show that
1. chastise in the Greek means "child training". Do you earthly fathers/mothers train your child with accidents, dieseases, disasters? So how dare we even suggest that of God!
2. that God chastises with his Word (2Ti 3:16) to our spirit (Heb 12:9). Not physically with diesease, accidents. (physical chastisement, yet without accidents and dieseases except for some sicko dads is by way of our earthly fathers Heb12v9)
3. that he does it for our profit (v10) and that the result is that we grow and live, and not die! (v9, 11,13)

But can God turn this ugly thing around? Yes of course, all things work together for the good of them that love God. As with Joseph, his brothers meant it for evil, but God can turn it around for Joseph's as well as his brothers' profit.

Fledge
10-22-01, 11:16 PM
This really sorta goes hand in hand with the free will, predestination issue in the soteriology thread. Different circumstances, but similar issue.
Am I making any sense? I see what I am getting at anyway.

AND, this is something I am still praying about and studying on.

Brandan
10-23-01, 07:02 AM
Andrew,

Your entire argument is based upon the presupposition that God works in dispensations and His relationship with His people is continually changing. It only works if you agree with Dispensational Theology, and well, we could go 'round and 'round on that one....

Anyone else have a different reason or Scriptures to prove that God could NOT have caused this tragedy?

Brandan
10-23-01, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by Andrew
God sure as heaven DID NOT cause the Sept 11 attacks.

Consider:
2 Cor 5:18 And all things are of God, who HATH reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and HATH given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, NOT IMPUTING their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord WILL NOT impute sin.

From here we can see that God is not even imputing the trespasses of the world against them, how much more his children! Why? Becos of Jesus! If we think like that, who do you think gets the glory?

These passages do not imply that the world has been forgiven of their sins. AND if the world's sins were NOT counted against them like you erroneously claim, then they would be saved, not condemned to hell!


So we are still in a period of God's grace.

Mankind has ALWAYS been in a period of God's grace. Every breath we take is always by God's grace! What's the difference between living today as a member of the body of faith, and in the period of Abraham as a member of the body of faith? The righteous have always lived by faith and God's grace.


But a time will come when enough is enough, that God will have to judge the earth for all those who reject his grace and pardon.

Let's leave eschatology out of this.


He will do this not becos he delights in wrath but becos being a just God, he has to judge unrighteousness.

Question, if ALL the sins of the world have been been poured out on Christ, why does he have to judge unrighteosness? He already did this according to your logic. You are saying He must judge the same sin repeatedly.


But the time for this wrath is not now, in the period of grace.

So, we're in a period of grace now.... You've definitely beaten that truth home.


It will come after the church is raptured, during the seven year tribulation.

But grace won't exist during the tribulation? Wow, what are we to do? Why isn't this period a time of God's grace? Scripture please....


That's why once we understand the beauty and the finality of Jesus' work on the cross, a pre-trib rapture doctrine is so easy to accept.

Ok, I understand you're hooked on eschatology and the "last days". But from now on, please take it to the eschatology board. Thanks ;)


Who then caused the Sept 11 attacks? Simple - the devil - for he comes to steal, kill and destroy. (Jn 10:10) But Christ came to give us abundant life.

Yes, Christ did come to give us abundant life, but how does this imply that God is not capable of causing calamity. You have not even addressed the article above objectively....


Chastisement? NO!
Some might argue that God "chastises" those he love. But a proper study of that famous yet misunderstood chap found in Heb 12 will show that
1. chastise in the Greek means "child training". Do you earthly fathers/mothers train your child with accidents, dieseases, disasters? So how dare we even suggest that of God!
2. that God chastises with his Word (2Ti 3:16) to our spirit (Heb 12:9). Not physically with diesease, accidents. (physical chastisement, yet without accidents and dieseases except for some sicko dads is by way of our earthly fathers Heb12v9)
3. that he does it for our profit (v10) and that the result is that we grow and live, and not die! (v9, 11,13)

Are you saying suffering will have no part of the Christian life, and that the only suffering that we will endure is because of the Devil?


But can God turn this ugly thing around? Yes of course, all things work together for the good of them that love God. As with Joseph, his brothers meant it for evil, but God can turn it around for Joseph's as well as his brothers' profit.

You're gonna love this scripture, because it completely refutes your logic here....

Genesis 45:8, (NASB) Now, therefore, it was not you [Joseph's brothers] who sent me [Joseph] here [into slavery and Egypt], but God; and He has made me a father to Pharaoh and lord of all his household and ruler over all the land of Egypt.

Your logic flows like this....

"In the past, those bad things were ordained, but today we are living under a different dispensation, one of grace. Therefore, the bad events are not ordained by God, just the good ones. Satan is in charge of the bad events. But in the future, this dispensation will be over, and God will then be able to ordain the bad events again."

My logic flows like this.

"In eternity past, all things were foreordained by God."

Andrew, thanks for posting.... ;)

jhamrick
10-23-01, 08:11 AM
God COULD have caused this, however, I don't think he did. I have heard alot of people referring as this as God's punishment on his people, and I would assume they would relate that to old testament Israel. I don't think this applies to USA, as we never enterred into a covenant with Him: we were never his people. Also, children died horrible deaths here, and wasn't it Jesus who talked about not harming the little children?

Nah, I think this act is a direct result of sin, not righteousness.

Brandan
10-23-01, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by jhamrick
God COULD have caused this, however, I don't think he did.

Why not?


I have heard alot of people referring as this as God's punishment on his people, and I would assume they would relate that to old testament Israel. I don't think this applies to USA, as we never enterred into a covenant with Him: we were never his people.

I agree with you here! Yes, it is wrong to equate OC Israel and the USA in the same breath.


Also, children died horrible deaths here, and wasn't it Jesus who talked about not harming the little children?

Jesus taught not to harm anyone, not just children....


Nah, I think this act is a direct result of sin, not righteousness.

I believe it is a direct result of sin as well, but ALSO of Divine Providence. Man's will cooperated with God's will.

questian
10-23-01, 08:52 AM
"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. " Isaiah 45:7

"Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?" Lamentations 3:38


Lest anyone think I am accusing God of evil (or praising God of good for that matter), it is the individuals who are responsible for their actions. When Islamic fundamentalists chant "God is great" whenever a terrorist act occurs in the name of Islam, and Christian fundamentalists chant "God Bless America" in protest of the same act in the name of Christianity, it is laughable.

Invoking the name of God for any reason does absolutely nothing but incite division and violence between opposing positions who claim their's is the TRUE God.

There is no almighty deity sitting on his throne in the clouds playing humanity like some universal chess game. The concept of "God" is as ever-changing and diverse as the people who have ever given the idea a thought and no one has any way of proving one way or another what "God" is. What happens when every Bible, Koran, Torah & Veda is incinerated and there's not a single "inspired word" to go on? Two things happen: either mankind realizes it's up to them to improve the world and pitch the notion altogether, or we return to the superstitious primitive spiritualism that reigns in the remotest parts of the world.

Let's go back to what I keep telling everyone - DEFINE YOUR TERMS. If the same definition of God is not being used in the discussion, nothing will be acomplished.

Andrew's God is not Kermie's God is not Questian's God is not Fledge's God. Until they are the same, it's all mumbo-jumbo.

Brandan
10-23-01, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by questian
"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. " Isaiah 45:7

"Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?" Lamentations 3:38

Excellent use of Scripture. You've made my point.


Lest anyone think I am accusing God of evil (or praising God of good for that matter), it is the individuals who are responsible for their actions.

Yes, you are correct. The individuals are responsible.


When Islamic fundamentalists chant "God is great" whenever a terrorist act occurs in the name of Islam, and Christian fundamentalists chant "God Bless America" in protest of the same act in the name of Christianity, it is laughable.

I agree 100%. However, I will continue to chant God is great WHENEVER anything good or bad happens.


Invoking the name of God for any reason does absolutely nothing but incite division and violence between opposing positions who claim their's is the TRUE God.

Whoah whoah whoah.... Using the name of God SHOULD not cause division or violence between opposing positions. If it does, that does not necessarily mean it is wrong to use His name.....


There is no almighty deity sitting on his throne in the clouds playing humanity like some universal chess game. The concept of "God" is as ever-changing and diverse as the people who have ever given the idea a thought and no one has any way of proving one way or another what "God" is. What happens when every Bible, Koran, Torah & Veda is incinerated and there's not a single "inspired word" to go on? Two things happen: either mankind realizes it's up to them to improve the world and pitch the notion altogether, or we return to the superstitious primitive spiritualism that reigns in the remotest parts of the world.

Hmmm, maybe this needs to be in the skeptics debat board.....


Andrew's God is not Kermie's God is not Questian's God is not Fledge's God. Until they are the same, it's all mumbo-jumbo.

But Questian, do you even believe that God exists? What is your God?

Christ__Alone
10-23-01, 09:27 AM
Just some thoughts here...

What I'm seeing, in those opinions that say, basically "God would not do this, God is love" is a viewpoint OF God's nature, that is only partially accurate.

YES God is love, he is mercy, grace, beauty, forgiveness and all those most wonderful, amasing things.

But that is not ALL of God's nature. If it helps, and I hope it does, I'll post a study on some of the names of God, that define His character. It's by no means comprehensive, but it does touch on the MANY characteristics of our NEVER changing, Heavenly Father.

I'll post that study in the Inspirational forum, if anyone would care to have a look at it.

questian
10-23-01, 10:09 AM
I will continue to chant God is great WHENEVER anything good or bad happens.


C'est la vie. What is the point then?



Using the name of God SHOULD not cause division or violence between opposing positions. If it does, that does not necessarily mean it is wrong to use His name.....


Then you are foolish to think that words are merely words. Rare is the one who does not internalize that which speaks ill of their most cherished beliefs.

In this case, the phrase "God is my co-pilot" takes on a whole new meaning.

Brandan
10-23-01, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by questian
C'est la vie. What is the point then?
To glorify God in everything I do.

Romans 11:36, (NASB), For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.


Then you are foolish to think that words are merely words. Rare is the one who does not internalize that which speaks ill of their most cherished beliefs.

Those who speak ill of my cherished beliefs do so at their own peril. Those who reject God will pay in a way that would make any violence I could possibly inflict on others seem insignificant and pointless. Besides, my beliefs PREVENT me from taking violence out on another person for ANY reason...

Deuteronomy 32:35, (NASB), 'Vengeance is Mine, and retribution, In due time their foot will slip; For the day of their calamity is near, And the impending things are hastening upon them.'

Romans 12:19, (NASB), Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord.

Also, I believe those who speak ill of my beliefs do so because they are Spiritually dead. Why should I expect a Spiritually dead person to act against his very nature?

Romans 8:7,8 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Jeremiah 13:23, (NIV), "Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

questian
10-23-01, 02:08 PM
To glorify God in everything I do.


To what end? Are you saying that God can become "more good" by repeatedly saying "God is good"? If God created both good and evil, why not say "God Curse America"? The logic is the same.



Those who speak ill of my cherished beliefs do so at their own peril. Those who reject God will pay in a way that would make any violence I could possibly inflict on others seem insignificant and pointless. Besides, my beliefs PREVENT me from taking violence out on another person for ANY reason...


This is basically an empty threat. What you are saying is in effect, "Respect what I believe or suffer the eternal consequences! I can't do anything about it, but you'll pay in the end!" It's like telling a bully your big brother will come get him when he has never seen your brother. What's to fear? All the saber-rattling concerning God's vengence and judgement amounts to Goliath posturing that eventually gets shot in the head by a pebble of reason.



Also, I believe those who speak ill of my beliefs do so because they are Spiritually dead. Why should I expect a Spiritually dead person to act against his very nature?


You contradict yourself. The blasphemer puts himself in peril while at the same time he is dead? What harm can a dead person do to himself?

Andrew
10-23-01, 09:09 PM
Kermie,

thanks for your inputs. But the scriptures I've posted speak for themselves.

It is you who are claiming "erroneous" things about God.

Kings Kid
10-23-01, 09:37 PM
Did God cause the 9/11 disaster?

I think Amos 3:6 answer's that perfectly.

"When disaster comes to a city (New York, Washington,etc), has not the Lord caused it?" (NIV)

Seems pretty clear to me!

blackhaw
10-23-01, 11:06 PM
Kings kid: i do not think that you can point to one verse in the Bible, especially a question, and state that it is what the Bible teaches just by itself.

As far as what i feel. I think that the WTC tragedy was in God's will. That is it was in His permissive will. Nothing happens except what is in His permissive will. As far as did HE cause it because of our sin? i do not know. i voted "no" but only because there was not a "Don't know" answer when i voted. (at least i did not see it) I think that in the Bible you have good and bad things that happen for a variety of reasons. Yes sometimes it was becasue of judgement but it was not always so. For example Job or who I am studying right now Daniel. They had horrific things happen to them but not because they were being judged. Also in Matthew it says:


Matt 5:45
45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on {the} evil and {the} good, and sends rain on {the} righteous and {the} unrighteous.
(NAU)


So I think some things happen just because we live in a fallen world. Now I guess we can say that is a judgement for our sin but not in the sense that we are talking about here. The reason why I would be weary about saying God caused the tragedy is because what I have seen is that I have not seen any reason in my heart to believe it was. The U.S. is not a christian nation anymore (if it ever really was) and i think God would not be unjust to send calamity on it. Actually i think it would be in God's right to wipe us all off the Earth. However i do not think that He is doing that here but i do not know that God is not doing it.

One last thing though. i think that if God is sending a judgement against us by the WTC tragedy it is because of the church in the U.S.. We are so fat and just want milk instead of solid food. I think the church is held up to a higher standard and I think we have really failed lately.

Andrew
10-23-01, 11:22 PM
My Pastor said that those who believe that God caused it might as well shake hands with Osama, who is convinced that the Sept 11 event is a judgment from God on the US. Osama wld gladly pat you on the back and say: "Man, you finally got it! *LOL*"

Just think for a moment, what spirit is behind Osama.

If God has to judge the US, then Christ died in vain.

A preacher recently said: "If God was not judging the US, He would have to apologise to Sodom and Gomorrha." My church replied: "If God had to judge the US, he would have to apologise to Jesus."

And if we want to talk about New York/US being sinful and all, let's start with ourselves.

Let God count and impute your daily sins, let him mark your trangressions, and see if you are still standing at the end of the day.

blackhaw
10-23-01, 11:38 PM
Andrew:
Yes we are all very sinful and deserve death. And yes Jesus Christ paid our eternal price on the cross. I do not see why we have to apologise to Jesus if we believe that God casued the WTC or any other tragedy because of our sin. We find many examples of God's judgement on people for their sin in the Bible. Even in the NT.


Acts 5:1-10

CHAPTER 5

1 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property,
2 and kept back {some} of the price for himself, with his wife's full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back {some} of the price of the land?
4 "While it remained {unsold} did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
5 And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.
6 The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.
7 Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.
8 And Peter responded to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?" And she said, "Yes, that was the price."
9 Then Peter {said} to her, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out {as well} "
10 And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
(NAU)

But by the grace of God am I. God was not unjust for killing them and the same goes for me if He ever wished to do it to me.

Andrew i do think though that you are VERY right when you say that we should look at our own sin first and foremost. All i have to say tonight or is it morning?

Andrew
10-23-01, 11:51 PM
Hey Mr Green,

--------------
These passages do not imply that the world has been forgiven of their sins. AND if the
world's sins were NOT counted against them like you erroneously claim, then they would be saved, not condemned to hell!
--------------
"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, NOT IMPUTING their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."

I think its clear who's claiming what. Put it another way, a prisoner on death row will still hang if he chooses to reject a Presidential pardon. "Not counting their sins" does not mean that they do not have sin. The very words "NOT IMPUTING their trespasses" are self explanatory. Do we sin? YES, otherwise "trespasses" wont be there. But are they counted against us? NO. Why? Becos of Jesus. Yet a sinful man who does not have the righteousness of Christ will still burn in hell becos he is still sinful.

----------------
What's the difference between living today as a member of the body of faith, and in the period of Abraham as a member of the body of faith? The righteous have always lived by faith and God's grace.
----------------
If man has always lived under grace all the time, why the need for the grace/new cov? My point is that one should view the Sept 11 attacks in the light of the NC which we are now under. What's so great or gracious abt this New Cov if God can still destroy Christians and non-Christians with events like the Sept 11 attacks?

-------------
Let's leave eschatology out of this.
-------------
No intention here to start a debate on eschatology. But sometimes it helps to see the big picture, the overall scheme of things.

---------------------
Question, if ALL the sins of the world have been been poured out on Christ, why does he have to judge unrighteosness?
---------------------
Simply becos while everything has been done by God for man to be reconciled, it must still be received. As with the last plague of Egypt, the blood has to be applied. Until you believe and accept the finished work, one is still unrighteous and a sinner. One will still go to hell.

---------------
But grace won't exist during the tribulation? Wow, what are we to do? Why isn't this period a time of God's grace? Scripture please....
----------------
You can read all abt the terrible/horrific judgements on earth in Revelations, and if you still think it's full of grace, so be it.

------------------
Yes, Christ did come to give us abundant life, but how does this imply that God is not capable of causing calamity.
------------------
Perhaps I missed it, so why not give me some after the cross verses that state the God is the author of calamities.

-----------------
Are you saying suffering will have no part of the Christian life, and that the only suffering that we will endure is because of the Devil?
-----------------
If the "suffering" you are talking abt is diesease, death, accidents, yes. Heb 12 is already very clear abt what God's chastisement means.

-------------
Your logic flows like this....
"In the past, those bad things were ordained, but today we are living under a different
dispensation, one of grace. Therefore, the bad events are not ordained by God, just the
good ones. Satan is in charge of the bad events. But in the future, this dispensation will
be over, and God will then be able to ordain the bad events again."
---------------

no...more like dont talk and write as though Christ did not die. ;)

Andrew
10-24-01, 12:04 AM
blackhaw,

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I do not see why we have to apologise to Jesus if we believe that God casued the WTC or any other tragedy because of our sin.
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what my Pastor is trying to say is this: Jesus did not have to, but he chose to, in his unconditional love, to leave aside his glory and come down to earth to take on the sins of the whole world. You and I know that He went thru hell of a lot of suffering to make us righteous by his blood (if we receive). He took on the sins of every man that wld ever live and was judged in our place. God's wrath fell on him instead of us. He was punished instead of us. (sorry but i dont believe in limited atonement, ie Christ died for some only)

So can you see that the Father wld be "betraying" or "dishonouring" Jesus' work if he still punishes us today in the New Cov? It's called the law of double jeopardy. The same crime cannot be punished twice.

I'm familiar with Acts 5:1-10. But pls tell me where exactly does it say, as you claim, that it was caused by God. And what are the other "similar" examples in the NC (you say there are many) where God is explicitly stated to be the causer of the judgment on his children. BTW Annanias and Sapphira here are not Christians.

God bless

blackhaw
10-24-01, 12:43 AM
i know I said the last one would be my lasty post but i can't sleep.

Andrew:
"So can you see that the Father wld be "betraying" or "dishonouring" Jesus' work if he still punishes us today in the New Cov? It's called the law of double jeopardy. The same crime cannot be punished twice."

So what does He do when He lets us dwell in the consequences of our sin? What i mean is that it does not matter if you are a Christian or not if you lie there will be some consequences to it. is that double jeopardy? He is punishing me right?


"I'm familiar with Acts 5:1-10. But pls tell me where exactly does it say, as you claim, that it was caused by God. "

Who did it then? Peter was acting as an agent of God. Was it Satan or was it a special power of Peter?


"And what are the other "similar" examples in the NC (you say there are many) where God is explicitly stated to be the causer of the judgment on his children. BTW Annanias and Sapphira here are not Christians. "


How do you know Annanias and Sapphira were not Christians? They at least professed a faith in JC. This is shown becasue they were there in the first place. Maybe they were not but i do not see how you could say that they were not with certainty.





blackhaw

Andrew
10-24-01, 03:53 AM
blackhaw,
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What i mean is that it does not matter if you are a Christian or not if you lie there will be some consequences to it. is that double jeopardy? He is punishing me right?
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what we do on earth has consequences. ie if smoke and drink, our health goes bad and relationships suffer, if we sleep around we get aids, VD etc. But that does not mean that God punishes us for those sins. In the first place, the devil tempts us into such things, so as to destroy us - the consequences. So how can it be God at the same time. ie the devil doesnt just tempt as and then tell God to finish his evil work. and again, yes, God doesnt punish us becos Jesus was already punished on our behalf. Can you see how much God actually loves us? Can you see the tremendous value and impact of the cross? Again, pls re-read my first posting on what Heb 12 teaches abt chastisement.

as regards Annaias and Sapp, I wld not speculate since the verses dont make it explicit. But in light of what i'm trying to say, i serously doubt it was God's hand.

I'll tell u why I believe Anna and Sapp weren't believers, and u can judge for yourself. My pastor had the same questions for a long time. then one night while he was trying to sleep, the Holy Spirit spoke to him softly saying : "There was a disciple name Annanias.......There was a man named Annanias" repeatedly for a few times.

He didn't quite know what the Spirit was trying to say so he just went ahead and slept. The next morning, he got it. The Holy Spirit calls one a "disciple" [the one who laid hands on Paul" and the other a "man" [who died]. ie rarely do you find the scriptures refering to a child of God as "man". That's up to you to judge in your spirit.

God bless

Brandan
10-24-01, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by blackhaw
As far as what i feel. I think that the WTC tragedy was in God's will. That is it was in His permissive will. Nothing happens except what is in His permissive will. As far as did HE cause it because of our sin? i do not know. i voted "no" but only because there was not a "Don't know"

Blackhaw, I changed your vote from "no" to "I don't know." I added the option later....