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Christ__Alone
10-29-01, 07:29 AM
This is an issue that faces almost all believers I've ever known, so I'll open the thread here, and start with sharing my own personal experiences, and convictions.

From my early teens until my late 20's, I went through several different phases of musical taste. From R&B, pop, rock, soft rock and heavy metal.

During all of that time, I was not living for the Lord, by any stretch of the imagination.

When God brought me to my knees in April of 94, one of the first things the Holy Spirit began to convict me on, was my music. I had been heavily into heavy metal for several years at that point, and even dressed the part, it had become so much of a part of my life.

As much as I enjoyed it, I knew full-well, it had absolutely nothing to do with God, did not glorify Him, did not make me think of Him, and had no place in my house, or my life... so it had to go.

I started listening to the Christian Contemporary radio station, and even some of the songs there, made me wonder how they could be classified Christian, since they sounded exactly like some of the stuff I had recently done away with.

Since that time, music has taken a large backseat in my life, and when I do listen to it, it's only hymns, praise and worship music or southern gospel (pretty big leap for a former metal-head, eh?:D )

Now when I listen to these kinds of songs, my heart is full of reverance for the Lord, and thankfulness for all He's done for me, does for my family, and just really makes me think of His majesty and power.

I have heard and read, time and time again, proponents of Christian "rock" music say words to this affect "God uses this kind of music to get people saved". Yet I have never met a saved person, who got saved as a result of a Christian rock concert - and - it is the conviction of the Holy Spirit that breaks the prideful heart of man, that leads to redemption, not a Christian rock concert.

Others have said that young people need something like this, to bring them into the church. My question is, how did young people get saved before this kind of music was around, and why does the church think it needs a gimmick to convert souls?

The Bible says, the law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul (Psalms 19:7), it doesn't say anything about a worldly beat and "Christian" lyrics converting anyone's soul.

Does the modern church compromise, and use gimmicks to bring in the kids? How are we bringing in the young married couples, middle aged, and elderly, do we need gimmicks there too, or do they come because they have been convicted of their sin, and desire to be in the fellowship with like-minded believers?

For me personally, I cannot listen to this kind of music. When I hear it, all I can think of is how much it sounds like the wicked music I used to love, and the life I was living, when I did listen to it.

I would have vehemently defended my choice of music then (and often did), exactly as pro-Christian "rock" fans vehemently defend their choice of music, now. Why is that? Why is music so powerful that it causes folks to get rabid over it, and dig their heels in?

Alot of people don't like hymns, or praise and worship music, or southern gospel, but when they make comments about not liking it, or even those who say southern gospel is of the devil (and yes, some do say that), I don't get snarly over it and try to defend it, it's not that big of a deal to me, if they don't like it. But this is generally not the case, with Christian "rock" fans, it IS a big deal to them. Why is that?

Please feel free to share your thoughts on this issue...

Brandan
10-29-01, 08:28 AM
Well, I like Christian Rock, and find much of it to be entertaining without all the wickedness of worldly heavy metal. A lot of it is theologically incorrect though (most of it is heavily Arminian.)

One thing I like is Rock Worship Music. Contemporary worship music with a rock beat / sound....

Oh well, I find some of it to be edifying, but I'm not into it that much.

Christ__Alone
10-29-01, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by kermie
Well, I like Christian Rock, and find much of it to be entertaining without all the wickedness of worldly heavy metal. A lot of it is theologically incorrect though (most of it is heavily Arminian.)


I'm glad you mentioned that...

The other day I was in the van, and I turned the station over to the Christian channel out of Buffalo. There was a really pretty song on, and then came a line about choosing God. :(

Ruined the whole song for me. Alot like watching what seems to be a pretty good movie, then hearing someone take the Lord's name in vain.

But that song, and that line, sure did make me think of all the Christian music out there, that does send that same message.
:(

blackhaw
10-29-01, 12:49 PM
CA and Kermie:
There are also a good number of Christian pop/ rock musicians that believe in TULIP. Caedmons Call is one group that comes to mind.
Personally I like Christian music. (All types) I think it is not the style of music that counts but what it says. I think that yeah in some ways it is a gimmick (especially in some churches) but the church has been using gimmiks since it began. i.e. Christmas day being on Dec. 25th. I do not see that ginniks are wrong unless you forget about God and jsut concentrate on the gimmiks themselves. Like if you concentrate on how much you like the style of music instead of the God the music is speaking about.

jhamrick
10-29-01, 01:30 PM
A reason I would defend it somewhat, is because I honestly feel that it is a ministry that I am called to do. Also, though, I realize that others have different convictions about this, and I urge them to follow what they feel God would have them to do.

I am not a big fan of Christian Rock.

YoungTheologist
10-29-01, 09:14 PM
I, for one, am in support of Christian rock, but I am very close. For example, one of my favorite CD's is dc Talk: Intermission. For those of you who haven't heard them, they play in a very upbeat style. I wouldn't say that songs like
'Jesus Freak' are taking God's name in vain.
Even though I sometimes prefer quieter and slower music, the upbeat style appeals to me, and probably to many others, more.

blackhaw
10-29-01, 10:23 PM
YoungTheologist:

Welcome.
i like DcTalk too. I think that they are a good blend of good music yet uncompromising with the lyrics. I also like the Newsboys. But my favorite was Rich Mullins. He was a real Christian. Not perfect but real.

Peter
10-30-01, 09:23 PM
Because this is supposed to be light hearted, let me weigh in. There is no such thing as Christian music or secular music! Only people can be Christian. Music is sound. Sound is a wave. Waves are measureable. They are a scientific fact. No one would say they own a Christian hammer would they? Therefor, there is no such thing as Christian music.

Sound, no matter how it's played, cannot convey truth. Music can be used for good or for bad, but is not good or bad in and of itself. Even the German monk Martin Luther used secular tunes in his worship services, he just changed the words. "Why should the devil have all the good tunes," he said.

Chew, chew, chew.:)

blackhaw
10-30-01, 10:27 PM
Peter:

You are right. Sound is just sound. When i said christian music i was using the term in a normal day to day kind of way. christian music to me is music that portrays a Christian message. This is done through the lyrics of the songs. That is what I meant. Also it is a classification of music. Like Pop msic or C&W. But your point is correct. Music in itself is not bad. It is just music. the words are what is important. I say use whatever music you can to convey the gospel and praise God. For praising God is what we are supposed to be doing at all times.

Nay Nay
10-31-01, 01:27 PM
Perhaps as a vocalist I see things a little differently. I absolutely don't listen to anything secular but I listen to all kinds of different Christian music, Ska, Pop, Rock etc... what I have come to know is that music is much like a preacher, some prefer a certain style and one style will reach someone another style won't.

I can not listen to a crying, screaming preacher and get anything out of their message. But then if a passionate preacher is speaking and using some humor to make a point, I find it so easy to listen to even if he is preaching the same messages as the "Screaming, Crying Evangelist" it doesn't make anyone of them better than the other.

I see music that way, there are some songs by Christian artist that don't preach about God, but they don't dishonor Him either. If music is done right it would interest the listener and then the witness of the Christian Band (at a concert or otherwise) would preach a thousand sermons.

That's how I see it anyway... beats aren't evil, rock and heavy metal aren't evil, but IMO if you can't understand a lick of what their singing about it is certainly a waste of time.

jhamrick
10-31-01, 01:34 PM
Nay Nay,
Ska fan? DId you hear of a Chrisian ska band a couple of years ago called Solomon's Porch?

Nay Nay
10-31-01, 03:51 PM
No, I don't believe so...Solomon's Porch doesn't sound familiar to me at all. :confused:

A couple of the bands I listen to are like InSyDerZ, Supertones, Five Iron Frenzy...

So were they good? what happened to them?

jhamrick
11-01-01, 10:30 AM
Are you kidding? they were amazing! Nah, just kidding, it was my band. We never blew up like those other bands, but we played with them sometimes which was fun. We were more of a traditional (first wave) kinda ska band, which if you don't know is like a 1960's Jamaican jazz.

Anyway, we took a couple of years off. Now a few of us are back playing Rock and Roll.

Nay Nay
11-01-01, 01:38 PM
1960's Jamaican Ska? I wasn't even a fetus at that time ;)

Well I'm sure your band was all that and a bag of Cool Ranch Doritos ;)

so what are you doing now? still playing, singing?
Do you need a female singer? <nudge nudge> j/k

:p

BTW: I rated this thread a 5=BEst because well... I'm here ;)


j/k again...

Nay Nay
11-01-01, 04:45 PM
I was unable to edit my last post... but I realized you already had answered my question before I even asked it.

New question: You said you played with some of those bands I fore mentioned, which ones?

Ever heard of Plumbline? or All Together Separate?

deadworld
11-01-01, 07:29 PM
Christian Rock,
Well, I guess there are many things which fit into the catagory of christian or not. i think it is important for us to consider what Jesus saw as our biggest fault, what we say! He said, it is not what enters your mouth which defiles you, it is what comes out.
So here he throws out rightiousness through physical deeds and things, all physical things are dead, and cannot produce rightiousness. So where does rightiousness come from, that it may be fulfilled. Rightiousness comes from our sincere desire to serve God in Jesus. our words should be full of praise and hope for those who do not hear, we should constantly praise His name in all we do. Yes even in hard rock music, its a tool, reap the harvest!!!
Here are a few of my experiences in the Christian Rock music business.

I was playing with a bunch of retired Nashvile boys in a Southern gospel band called, The Gospel Sounds in Ft. Pierce, FL. we formed the band to play festivals, prisons and do outreach work in places most folks wouldn't be caught dead, crack infested neigborhoods with hookers on every corner, and the homeless under every bush. We set up and were serving fish, and cole slaw sandwiches on this God forsaken street corner. we started playing our standard covers, you know, As the Saints go marching in, and many gospel standards. As we played we saw many people eyeing us in the distance, but they would not come up for the food or hear the music. So we decided to try something, lets rock the songs hard, so we double timed the song and put a little burn on the instrument and all of a sudden we had a audience, were serving food to hundreds of folks coming up. We began to talk to many of them and I asked one guy, why didn't you come up when we first played, i saw you looking at us. He said, he was ashamed of himself. the music was so "christian" and church like he didn't feel like he would be welcomed as he was. but when we started to rock he said the feeling changed and he felt welcomed, not such a snobby vibe.
I told them I enjoyed both styles and they really shouldn't judge the churches either. And as the walls broke down before me I saw fresh ground to plant seeds. This should make the churches raelly think about their image and goals. Are we so socially clicked that we can no longer serve our Lord. Is the impression between each other more important than God's call to us to serve?The reverend we were working with was Biker for Christ, his name was Reverend Mike. here is His story as well as another related music story.

Years before I played in a hard rock band in Miami, I wrote original music that spoke about Christ and God and always tried to witness. I was playing one night and there were a large number of Pagans(motorcycle club). These were rough guys feasting on hardcore and drinking hard. well i played one of my songs titled Love's gate. A real hard rocker that speaks about Jesus being saviour and the path to life through love's gate.
The lyrics were slightly cryptic to avoid having the club owner throw us out for being a ministry in a hardcore bar. well this huge 300 lb man of solid muscle walked up and barked, What the hell was that? I said, what do you mean, he said what were you talking about in your song, Well, i heard God asking so i told Him the truth, that i was talking about Jesus Christ, my Saviour and how he changed my life. Well i saw this mountain of a man break into tears and fall on the floor slain in the spirit while his friends ridiculed him. as we talked Mike told me he had asked God earlier to show him he was real if he existed, He saw the song as His answer. So now Mike was on the path at the feet of Jesus.
He told me he was on his way to Mexico to see some friends and we parted company that night.
Years later, i started the Gospel Sounds, (previous story)
We were going around to all the local churches seeking support for our Jammin with Jesus outreach, feeding the depraved, and ministering to their needs. we hit all the main ones, and frankly were received with a lukewarm hand. They simply did not want to bus the homeless, the prostitues, and the addicted into church, or feed them or much of anything else, felt to me like a Country club mentality. So as the main churches fell by the wayside one by one we kept praying for people to help. I decided to go to the fish boat docks and ask the fishermen to donate fish through the week to help with this outreach, As i approached the first boat i saw this huge guy that looked somewhat familiar, but couldn'y place Him. He remembered me, and jumped up and screamed Praise God , you have brought me full circle!!! He jumped out the boat and hugged me and proclaimed to His friend this is the man who baptized me with the fire of God. And he told me about His Mexico adventure where God kept hammering Him to seek.
God layed on His heart to come to Ft. Pierce and start an outreach to the poor, downtrodden, the addicted, the homeless
because as he said God said to Him, by grace I saved you, it is by grace I'll save others through you. So as we talked I discovered he had a bus and a little building where he preached to His converted Motorbike friends and any one else interested. well i told him about what we were doing and we got together and the outreach was formed.

So lets look at this, years after i rocked Him hard enough to make Him question where he was going, He was now a preacher.
just food for thought.
peace man!!!

jhamrick
11-02-01, 12:55 PM
hey deadworld,
cool stories, much appreciated!

Nay, Nay,
I was only born in 1974:D ,but I have always just been an amateur music historian, so when the ska boom hit, I actually new the origins and thought it woul be fun to go out and play to the new ska crowds and see the reaction. Mostly confusion:)

I have heard of all those bands, and played with most of them at festivals. The ones we have actually opened for are Insyderz and 5 iron. We also have played with bands of other styles from 3rd Day to Bride. It has been a lot of fun and a real blessing. As far as a female singer, we actually have one. You should check out our web page, though it is being completely overhauled, and should be back in business in a few days.

Nay Nay
11-02-01, 01:36 PM
Deadworld: Wow, that is really Awesome to hear how God has been using you and the gift of music. I know from experience when it is God's timing and you obey His Spirit, He has already begun softening the hearts of the people to hear His Word. :D


Jh: Bummer you already have a female singer?...ahh but is she a cute, blonde? (ha ha! j/k) I already have a band I sing with at church, and I travel every once in a while and sing with other bands and people.

So 1974? double bummer.... you're younger than me :(
Ahh well... I'll live, because to Live is Christ and to Get older is gain....:p LOL

That's so kewl to hear about the honor of playing with all those bands. I would love to check out your website, if it's up that would be even more helpful...what's the URL?

If you can't post it here, send it E-mail, just click on my name and check out my profile.

Be Blessed......

jhamrick
11-02-01, 03:58 PM
....After 21 it's a down-hill slide:(

Nay,
There is something up on my site now, it may be a bit out dated though. My URL should be on my profile. if it all looks bad and boring, check back in a few days, Like I said it's about to change.

I think our singer is cute, but then again I am her big brother;)

My newest Christian rock band I'm listening to is Spark. Anyone heard of them/ like them?

Nay Nay
11-02-01, 04:14 PM
Awwwww... that's so sweet, I like to see brothers' who compliment their sisters. I apparently didn't grow up so lucky....oh well.

Spark doesn't sound familiar either, what kind of music do they play? I wil have to go check out your website, thanks for the info.

When I get my page going "one of these days" maybe you can download some Mp3's and check out our music as well.

Ciao 4 Now...

jhamrick
11-05-01, 12:37 PM
sounds great nay. Let me know when you get something up!

Nay Nay
11-05-01, 03:36 PM
Josh,

I checked out your website, you guys are pretty good. How long ago was that recording for "Higher"?

You sister has a great voice, very dynamic and clear.
Of course I had to check out the pictures ; )
You all look so young, in the pictures your sis looks about 15. No offense meant at all, you all just looked like a bunch of teenagers and when you get to in your 30's that's a welcomed compliment.

Nothing lifts me up more than when a parent sends me back into the Youth group, even though I am one of the teachers. LOL

jhamrick
11-06-01, 11:28 AM
Thanks for checking out the site.

The recording is old and home-recorded, we just finished a new demo with clips going up in a week or two.

J'aime is 22, and we already consider it a compliment when someone says we look young. I'm turning 27 in 3 weeks, losing hair at a rapid rate, and I must admit it is depressing. So thanks for letting me keep dreaming for a couple of more years:D

Nay Nay
11-06-01, 07:49 PM
Hey you may not be the "New Kids on the Block" :D
but God can use you nomatter what age you are.

I think you have a sound that the kids and some young at heart adults will love. ;)

Keep Singin 4 Jesus....

Enni
12-05-01, 08:50 PM
i listen to Christian rock and other contemporary Christian music and i love it. my fav band is Dc Talk. they have a cool beat and they really convey the message of Jesus Christ (yay!).
anyway i personally think that it's a great way of reaching the lost youth of today. Christian music provides a variety of music style with a positive. if you listen to hard heave metal like Marilyn Manson or Korn, it's all about negative messages, but if you listen to POD, they have somewhat the same kind of music but with a positive message. i like POD's alive. it makes me look back at how i enjoy live walking with God, basically how alive i feel after meeting God.

just remember that God is a creative artist. i dont think He is limited to hymns.

Fledge
12-05-01, 10:46 PM
The only thing I have against a lot (not all) christian rock and contemporary is that it isn't always christian. It says nothing about God. HOWEVER, they do tend to tackle a lot of issues and take a more biblical stand and are much more positive and uplifting.

So, in general...other than style differences, I don't have a problem with about 99% of the christian rock out there.

And I listen to a lot of it too!!!

Livinloud316
12-05-01, 10:54 PM
any music that uplifts god is OK. do you think loud music gives any less glory to god? just think about that a while

Jeffreyw
02-09-02, 11:01 AM
Yet I have never met a saved person, who got saved as a result of a Christian rock concert

Ask God that you would meet somebody who got saved through a Christian rock concert. Go ahead and ask, and it shall be given to you.

lebarongts88
02-11-02, 11:16 AM
Just a thought....

Going back to the whole TULIP thing.... not all hymns are exactly Calvinistic either. Many of the "great hymns of the faith" tend to lean in the Armenian direction. Is is really the music then or is it the message of the song that we should be worrying about. Is music inherantly evil in itself? And has not the church compromised the draw people in throughout it's history. A Mighty Fortress is Our God comes to mind. I seem to remember something about the music to it being a former bar tune. It was quite the controversy in that day just like "Christian rock" is such the controversy today. Then there is always songs like Yankee Doodle. Should we listen to Yankee Doodle .... it is not a song that endifies God in any way.

Like I said ... just some thoughts

matthew miller
02-21-02, 10:32 AM
christ alone,
I have almost the exactly the same testimony as far as music is concerned. I too listen from all kinds of music when I was unregenerate especillay heavy metal. When I was converted I can relate to saying when you "would " listen to music it was hymns or conservative. I too would put music on a lower shelf.
After reading the others respond to your post I was hurt! I dont believe music is amoral nor do I believe its ok if just one person gets saved. first off who do we think we are as ministers of God to develope what God has with detail instructed us to do with ministry. God is the chef we are just the waiters!!! We are told it is the gospel that saves, and until we understand we dont need the government nor gimmick, or anyother man made disign to reach people for our Lord. Paul preached when it was illeagal, when it was offensive, and strongly opposed and the church flurished more than anyother time in history. Even secular speaciallist know we are melodic creatures and music affects our thoughts and emotions. why I am so offended with rock or worldly christian music is because it mocks Christ for the sake of pleasing our desires. In Ezekiel 22:26 God tells the people that because they make no difference between the holy and the profane the clean and the unclean you profane my name. I remember reading a short book some time ago talking about the scribes that were responsible for copy the scriptures. When the scribes would reach a point inwich the would have to copy the name of God they would stop pray and in humbleness take out a new unused pen to write his name. Now in our music we say things like "we use the j-word around here" reffering ofcourse to Jesus. I find this disgusting. To the brother who associated this with preaching styles I would like to offer this. If in a congregation there were two different groups and the first were hippies. Lets say I took out a picture of Jesus and said do you like and they said no, so I then took out a pen and I drew long hair on Jesus(wich I dont believe the pictures that we see of our Lord are accurate, Jesus was a carpenter I believe he was a mans man not some skinny long haired frail wimp the catholics dreamed up in the renissance period) and a peace simble with a joint hanging out of his mouth. Then the men said perfect I accept this Jesus. The second group were grungies or thugs. So I wipped out my little pen and gave Jesus some tatoos and corn- rows and the men said perfect now Ill come. Rock music is full of drugs, sex, blasphmey, fornication, and rebellion. Why would we take something so wicked and mix it with someone so Holy. I would not walk up to some sailors and because they communicate with obcenities began to share Jesus by curse words. You say thats different, well words are man made so who says their bad. Let me take a second to say Im not trying to be unloving Im just passionate about this topic. Please remember that one person might get saved but how many would it lead away. "Its never right to do wrong in order to get a chance to do right" Dr Bob Jones Sr said. If you robbed bank and used the money to put the Gospel in every newspaper arround the country think of the people that would get saved. Ofcourse I think you get the picture. Our commission by God is to preach and thats what God blesses(rom10:8,17) so we need not try to invent a new methodology of reaching souls. thank you christ alone for your conviction and stand against the world system 1john 2:15. please respond!

matthew miller
02-21-02, 10:37 AM
christ alone,
I have almost the exactly the same testimony as far as music is concerned. I too listen from all kinds of music when I was unregenerate especillay heavy metal. When I was converted I can relate to saying when you "would " listen to music it was hymns or conservative. I too would put music on a lower shelf.
After reading the others respond to your post I was hurt! I dont believe music is amoral nor do I believe its ok if just one person gets saved. first off who do we think we are as ministers of God to develope what God has with detail instructed us to do with ministry. God is the chef we are just the waiters!!! We are told it is the gospel that saves, and until we understand we dont need the government nor gimmick, or anyother man made disign to reach people for our Lord. Paul preached when it was illeagal, when it was offensive, and strongly opposed and the church flurished more than anyother time in history. Even secular speaciallist know we are melodic creatures and music affects our thoughts and emotions. why I am so offended with rock or worldly christian music is because it mocks Christ for the sake of pleasing our desires. In Ezekiel 22:26 God tells the people that because they make no difference between the holy and the profane the clean and the unclean you profane my name. I remember reading a short book some time ago talking about the scribes that were responsible for copy the scriptures. When the scribes would reach a point inwich the would have to copy the name of God they would stop pray and in humbleness take out a new unused pen to write his name. Now in our music we say things like "we use the j-word around here" reffering ofcourse to Jesus. I find this disgusting. To the brother who associated this with preaching styles I would like to offer this. If in a congregation there were two different groups and the first were hippies. Lets say I took out a picture of Jesus and said do you like and they said no, so I then took out a pen and I drew long hair on Jesus(wich I dont believe the pictures that we see of our Lord are accurate, Jesus was a carpenter I believe he was a mans man not some skinny long haired frail wimp the catholics dreamed up in the renissance period) and a peace simble with a joint hanging out of his mouth. Then the men said perfect I accept this Jesus. The second group were grungies or thugs. So I wipped out my little pen and gave Jesus some tatoos and corn- rows and the men said perfect now Ill come. Rock music is full of drugs, sex, blasphmey, fornication, and rebellion. Why would we take something so wicked and mix it with someone so Holy. I would not walk up to some sailors and because they communicate with obcenities began to share Jesus by curse words. You say thats different, well words are man made so who says their bad. Let me take a second to say Im not trying to be unloving Im just passionate about this topic. Please remember that one person might get saved but how many would it lead away. "Its never right to do wrong in order to get a chance to do right" Dr Bob Jones Sr said. If you robbed bank and used the money to put the Gospel in every newspaper arround the country think of the people that would get saved. Ofcourse I think you get the picture. Our commission by God is to preach and thats what God blesses(rom10:8,17)also read pauls exhortation in 2timchptr4 so we need not try to invent a new methodology of reaching souls. thank you christ alone for your conviction and stand against the world system 1john 2:15. please respond!

deadworld
02-21-02, 01:54 PM
Brother, I appreciate your zeal for teachings and following a moral path, I too find this to be a solid base to seek from.
I agree that rock music in many of it's forms has no real value towards scripture or salvation. But when you speak of any particular form of music as being evil because it is based in Sex, drugs, and rock and roll I suggest you take a moment and ask yourself, Do you see any one in this world that truly lives the life Christ proclaimed? Certainly i am not saying that sin is ok because everyone does it, Sin is death. But when we look at the truth we find Christ had nothing to do with society, the look of the day, priest, or any organised form of religion. He did not deny that the Jews were God's people, but he did make it clear they had not yet found their way. because he was and is their way.
God says in the end there will be no temples before me built of man, lay not one stone on another and call it a good work. For it is a dead work without the spirit. For all mountains will be laid low, and all valleys filled. So what of man is good to God, nothing, not me , you, any reverend, or teacher. Only Jesus. He is the one everyone should ask, not church leaders, they are but men like me. Jesus is certainly capable of delivering truth without us.
Now Jesus reached out in all his power to whomever would hear, tax collectors, prostitutes, etc.. He said he came for the sick. please understand that this was intended for all man, we are sick.
i am sure there are many who will stand up and say Lord i am good. Sorry wrong answer. Jesus also didn't mind having a drink of wine with those he spoke with, surely you will remember how he chastised those for judgeing him physically and also proclaiming John had problems as well, One would eat and drink and the other would not, but yet they would accept neither. Why, because they did not fit the days leaders ideas of so called rightiousness.
I believe the reality of Christ supernatural teachings have been lost by men who seek rightiousness through dead things.
Christ said, it is not what goes in your mouth which defiles you it is what comes out. That eliminates physical rightiousness, rightiousness is of the spirit, and God knows our hearts and desires. If our desires are rooted in glorifying ourselves, this will become clear, likewise if our spirits wish is to seek him with all we are and use our talents for Him this too will become clear.
So although I agree that some music is not of God, i also believe
it is the heart which determines the truth.
I am a Christian extreme rocker, I am not offended by your thoughts, thank you for sharing them with us.
However, part of my God given talent is with music and I will not hide it, and I'm sure God would not be pleased with me if I was so weak in my faith that I had to agree with men in order to find acceptance amoung the dead. No I prefer to serve in everyway possible. I write music of all styles, hardcore, folk, jazz, worldbeat
gospel, as God put it , write a little something for everyone and i will use todays technology to spread my message. it seems the world today has no problems proclaiming technology as an extension of God's gifts for mankind, I personally don't see any difference in that stand and one of playing Christian rock music.
I also do not believe that gospel music has anything spiritually over a good Christian rock song. Obviously there will be those who only believe in what they do as good because it fits some man made idea of rightiousness. I believe God is rightious and not man, and that only the Lord can help us.
I am sure this will not change your mind, but that's ok, I just pray that your path with Jesus gets deeper and is fulfilled in heaven, not earth. His ways aren't man's.
see ya at the Party in the Sky, Jesus is the host. I'll play you a song then, it will rock hard, and sing eternally of God's glory, I have a feeling when God rocks you hard you're opinions will change, or you can go to the gospel concert a few doors down.
Blessings and God's love to all, yes everyone needs his hand.
If I went to russia and spoke scripture in english who would understand, similarly, If I played 1800's gospel(which i enjoy) to a crowd of hard core rockers would they be interested enough to listen. Probably not, I choose serving God as the path. Even if man hates me for it(go ahead nail me up , what glory is mine!!!), on the other side they will be my friends for I told them the truth through their fears . God sets me free in Jesus.
I bow low before him and lay dead at His feet awaiting His call.
Proudly rocking the world for Jesus, calling all to His feet, not mine. my only advise is for people to ask God to be in their life through Jesus. ask him to help you, look not to men, we just don't have the vision God does. And trust Him with faith and love.
he is right there looking out of your eyes. he won't deceive you. To think Christ teachings are wrong is to think this world is right, make your choice while there is Still a little time left to dream on His glory to change our ways here.

Aeon's Promise
http://www.mizmor.com/aeonspromise

No coat and tie will impress he who speaks world's into being.
Shoot, i am not impressed either.
God Bless:) Just praising His name .

matthew miller
02-21-02, 07:10 PM
deadworld,
I could not wait to see the forums response to my post. thank you for your feedback but, Im not sure you answered my post or some other disscusion you may have had with someone somewhere else.

But when we look at the truth we find Christ had nothing to do with society, the look of the day, priest, or any organised form of religion
first, Jesus was a Jew and the Bible makes it clear he grew up within the jewish law that he established in the Old testament. Jesus on many occations followed according to the Jewish religion(which was formulated by God to be a commentary on sin and our need for atonement.)

Now Jesus reached out in all his power to whomever would hear, tax collectors, prostitutes, etc.. He said he came for the sick. please understand that this was intended for all man, we are sick
Again Im not sure why you point this out. Yes Jesus preached to prostitutes but he did not become one to do this. nor did he change his message so that it would sound pleasing to them. The same goes for tax collectors

Jesus also didn't mind having a drink of wine with those he spoke with
To this I find the most sorrow, I hope you claim this out of Ignorance. In the New testament we have the greek word oinos which means wine but, the bible speaks clearly about two different types of wine. It refers on one hand to wine as a blessing and the on the other as a curse. If Jesus himself had changed the water into wine then I will throw my bible away. In Habbakak 2:15 the bible woes anyone who gives his brother strong drink(alchohol). If our sinless Lord did such a thing than our bible contradicts itself and we do not have a sinless redeemer. unfortunatly the same greek word is used for both cases. see proverbs 23:29-35 for the bad wine. the other being simply grape juice. remember the illustration Jesus gives about the wine in new bottles and old bottles, because all wine ofcourse starts of unfermentated .if you put old wine in a new sheepskin the gases from the fermentated wine would bust an unstretched new skin. anyhow this should be another post.


I believe the reality of Christ supernatural teachings have been lost by men who seek rightiousness through dead things
I agree with this but I dont know why you pointed this out to me when my claim is preaching is our only means of saving souls.


If I went to russia and spoke scripture in english who would understand, similarly, If I played 1800's gospel(which i enjoy) to a crowd of hard core rockers would they be interested enough to listen
If I went to Russia I would preach the gospel in their language so they would be convicted, edified, and rebuked. I dont know how you would reconcile preaching a Bible thats thousands of years old without worring its out of style too. You stated several times that men pleasing was one of our greatest pleagues, this would be the statement I would agree with the most. why should God care if some hell deserving sinners didnt think the preaching of his son crucified was not enough for them to be interested. If we offend God then who cares who we please if we please God then who cares who we offend. Lets stick with God's way and thats spelled out for us in the new testament dont worry about technology or some other means to carryout the truth. if we do this than we dont have to worry about man. wouldnt playing rock music or rap etc for mans pleasure be man pleasing?

deadworld
02-22-02, 06:09 AM
I would simply ask my Lord to deliver His message, even though the bible has old roots Christ is living, not the Bible. The BiBle is God's word intended for us to come to Him after realization that Christ is Lord. I have the one who wrote the Bible living inside of me why would I look anywhere else, He is God. That's called faith.I believe in a living real time Lord ready to answer anything on our mind. I am sorry you are troubled by things Christ may do outside of what you think he should be, but after all, He is God. I don't think it is man's place to start telling Him what rightiousness is. we are a mess. I have a screen name of dead world because that is what the earth is presently to God, not one with faith capable of opening the seals of God, only Jesus. A dead reality based on physical efforts to stay alive in a world we are dying in.
Seek Christ.

Thanks for your kind words and for the many people who have responded with joy.

deadworld
02-22-02, 06:21 AM
The best way to sow the seeds of the gospel is through Christ words and love of all as God.

As far as playing to please man, nah I like to rock too. Not looking for wealth, Lord knows what these projects cost me. Just fulfillment. may your path be blessed. Do what you know, the best you can, all have different gifts that are valuable to each other, God created worth in all.

Thanks for your candid discussion, Love to all , and you too my friend.
Still can't wait to see your face in Heaven, and we will hear the song of God.:)

deadworld
02-22-02, 06:29 AM
I think it is obvious Jesus was not a drunk, have a little wine for the stomach, not to be drunken. So yes, you may have interpreted this as my ignorance of which I plead guilty, before God I am not worthy to tie His shoes, But I am pleased to proclaim His glory and the freedom he has brought my heart beyond this world that cages the infinite in their ways.
I still see no example from man of Christ ways.Outer fringes yes, beginning stages of Christ consciousness, yes, what glory awaits for us as beings who are one in Him. Let's not judge each other with incomplete eyes. we all have fallen and can't get up without Him. he will show all His truth and glory.

matthew miller
02-22-02, 08:46 AM
deadworld,
In these conversations I have been impressed by your gift for words and so you stated in your intro you have a unique train of thought. you would be a snappy lawer.
But in closing I want to plead with you on one thing. I know you believe the Bible is the word of God. the Bible is the only thing we have from God for instruction and revelation of his will. as far as we having the spirit of God in us, He does not tell us to do anything that would be contrary to his word. If you feel as though God has some special plan for you to reach the world by some better means than just the simple preaching the the Bible than you have my sympathy. You will not find anywhere in the Bible where God commands us to use anymeans to evangelize the world other than preaching. so again I dont tell God what I want to believe I just study the scriptures and let God tell me.
you seem to have a servents heart and a love for God but, its plain to see your understanding of Biblical principles need attention. I'm not trying to take a cheap stab at anyone but, I believe in being true. In the future lets back up our conversation with properly exposited scripture. What makes every religion false other than Biblical Christianity is they put in there own thoughts and Ideas. We have a Bible that has proven itself over thousands of years of persecution that it is divinly written.so lets stand on it only. read 2 peter 1:19-21

deadworld
02-22-02, 10:53 AM
Thanks greatly, I also believe you are sincere. I understand your belief that there is nothing but the Bible which expresses God's will, and word. How about a sunrise, a newborn calf, the things in life we take for granted. i am not arguing about the BiBle being valid, it is, but whem we truly look at verses like, The birds of the field don't sow or reap for food, why do you oh men of little faith, we begin to see the true nature of God's reality which he gives to us freely.
Man today instead of considering these things for what they are become blinded with metaphors, oh he just meant to not worship material things, no, in fact he meant what he said, when we look at the exodus from egypt we find How God expressed himself to a willing people. Who here is ready to walk into the desert with nothing but faith, risking what we know to achieve a higher calling. I would venture to say not many.
Man chooses to follow man more than God. Why, because man fears death. In fact everything man does for the most part is formed from his fear of death. Why do we fear going home so much but at the same time profess Christian faith. Because the teachings of the Bible have been perverted by society in order
to cover the fears. Satan wants us to believe this world has aligned itself with God , that there are such things as good men. There are not, only call God good. I must ask you my friend, when Christ was questioned about the scriptures to try to catch him in a lie( based on their understanding), he responded with, you search the scriptures in order to find life but you refuse to come to me that you may have it. How could searching the scriptures lead to a shorfall of truth. Simply because Christ is alive, he is not out somewhere so far away we cannot speak with him, we just need to learn to hear. So if Christ were standing next to you , would you open the BiBle and ask questions of men or would you ask Christ standing there. I believe there would quickly come a time where Christ would say back, why don't you just develop a relationship with me, I'll show you everything and give you peace.
This is what the scriptures were intended to be, not an answer for all questions, but a text whose wonderous love and glory would bring us to Him. The Bible has never saved anyone, Christ has. i do not say this out of hate for anyone, or my sacred text, but all interpretations must be through Christ and not on our own understanding. This is certainly Biblical. Another point i wish to discuss about Christ teachings is his direct teaching of spiritual reality. Many examples abound in the Bible. When he was being chastised by men who would say, It is blasphemy to proclaim you are the son of God, and his response was why do you hate me for saying I am the son of God when you're scriptures tell you you are gods, no apostrophe as in belonging to, and no capital letter.
another situation that occurred along this line of thinking, Jesus was hungry and the tree he passed had no fruit and he stretched out His hand and said to the effect, because you have born no fruit you will wither. well the next day as the men who were with him passed by the same tree they saw it had withered and marveled, well Jesus responded why do you marvel you will do these things and greater. This is how God has called us to live.
Imagine the glory ahead of us, oh what a beautiful prayer Christ gave for us, Father make them one in me as I am one in you, God Almighty, we see Christ as God, being inseperably one forever so we shall be Christ, fulfilled in His prayer. Now this is a CHristian teaching which is more mystical than anything Harry potter ever dreamed of. Father make my hand yours, there are infinite examples for those who wish to hear about His true nature. You know I can't think of one scripture where Christ says, I want you to read the Bible to obtain answers to all your questions. Yes he spoke of the Holy Spirit as coming to reveal all things. Well as we ponder the glorious path laid for us at creation we start to see verses such as be it so to you according to your faith, and what you bind on earth, you bind in heaven, come to light. we make choices and learn from them, if we are so afraid of making choices that we ball into a fetal position and crawl into the"social cave" to hide, will we ever speak words which can create into our dreams of a spiritual planet based on Christ? i am not talking about ignorant choices, spiritual ones.
Certainly there is nothing on earth that demonstrates these teachings, these lessons can't be read and learned, they are results of a true search for a living God in Christ which has been burned into the soul.
I recently received an email from an internet friend whom I have never met but enjoy speaking with, after receiving multiple emails from him over about 9 months time and sending him many replies he wrote saying God Almighty I just read your emails, and not only were they deeply insightful but when i arranged your emails along a time line I realised you answered almost every prayer request I had made over the same period. I spoke to Him with a sincere straight forward faith. I didn't know that the subjects I wrote about were things going on in His life, but God did. we are one in Christ. But after admitting that this really occurred in a deeply metaphysical way, he told me that although he could see what I was saying, and could picture Christ looking at him saying, well what do you think about my mighty hand, he could not consider what was said, he felt to unworthy to believe Christ is that close. I am telling you to not be afraid, trust God, use discernment and prayer and run from all forms of sin as fast as you can, but never let man have your dreams, no man will ever fulfill you, be not afraid!!!!
Just a tidbit to consider, why did Christ ask so many people, who do you say that I am? He certainly knew who he was, he also knew their thoughts and already had the answer, so what was he looking for. The answer I got was that he was speaking with God through all things, When someone would answer you are the Christ the son of the living God, he responded with, you have been shown this by the Father. Why because no one else existed.
we are now but shadows of their beings. God has given Christ life unto himself. Something many have never heard taught in todays churches. Speak of love, of God, of Christ, dream of how you would like life to be, don't be afraid, it's only your Dad talking to you from the inside, learn to trust him.
Heavenly peace to all who seek him in Jesus;) ;) ;) :)

deadworld
02-22-02, 11:08 AM
As far as me believing God has special plans for me about teaching His words in other ways, he has. It is what Christ called taking up my cross and following him. All the things I have said were from a relationship with my living God through Christ.
All is a tool to use for him.

again I enjoyed your feedback,
thanks my friend