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Brandan
07-07-04, 05:09 AM
:eek: :eek: :eek:

Yep, that's right, the main website is disappearing - because these forums are going right to the front.

From now on, when you go to www.5solas.org (http://www.5solas.org), you'll be taken immediately to these forums.

What's going to happen to the other stuff? Well I'm starting a new website called: "Pristine Grace" - I've registered pristinegrace.net, .org, and .com. I'm going to turn it into a website centered solely on the Gospel of Free Grace.

Why the change? Well I want 5solas.org to be the "theological learning center" for all the reformed folks out there, and I want pristinegrace.net to be geared more toward the uninitiated. Besides, it's something new, and it will give me something to work on. :)

I appreciate all your support in this venture! Hopefully we'll see a lot more contributors once these forums go to the front page.

- Brandan

wildboar
07-07-04, 08:03 AM
Just in case ya don't know there's already another Pristine Grace website:eek:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Lake/8890/grace/pristine.html

GraceAmbassador
07-07-04, 08:13 AM
Just in case ya don't know there's already another Pristine Grace website:eek:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Lake/8890/grace/pristine.htmlYup! except that is on a blank page, at least in my IE6... and it does not work!

The Grace may be Pristine for the above page, but the page itself "ain't":p

Milt

wildboar
07-07-04, 08:35 AM
Try this: http://www.geocities.com/~mikekrall/grace/graceind.htmlThey have some good articles and not so good ones.

Brandan
07-07-04, 08:58 AM
I know the owner Mike Krall pretty well. We had a lot of dialogue on his hyper-preterism. I wanted freegrace.net or .org, but they were taken. I like the word Pristine a lot, and so that's what the new site will be called... When I asked the owner (who's not using freegrace.org for a website) if he would sell, he refused. Oh well, I understand :)


pristine

adj 1: completely free from dirt or contamination; "pristine mountain snow" 2: immaculately clean and unused; "handed her his pristine white handkerchief"

disciple
07-07-04, 11:41 AM
I know the owner Mike Krall pretty well. We had a lot of dialogue on his hyper-preterism. I wanted freegrace.net or .org, but they were taken. I like the word Pristine a lot, and so that's what the new site will be called... When I asked the owner (who's not using freegrace.org for a website) if he would sell, he refused. Oh well, I understand :)


pristine

adj 1: completely free from dirt or contamination; "pristine mountain snow" 2: immaculately clean and unused; "handed her his pristine white handkerchief"how about going with the latin:

pristinus gratia and perhaps register the site pristinus.com

Brandan
07-07-04, 11:49 AM
Well, for one thing most people go "huh" when I mention the "5 solas". I want people to understand at least a bit what the site is about when I give them the address. - Bradnan

disciple
07-07-04, 11:50 AM
Well, for one thing most people go "huh" when I mention the "5 solas". I want people to understand at least a bit what the site is about when I give them the address. - Bradnanor how about gratis grace or gratis gratia?

Brandan
07-07-04, 12:22 PM
I like gratisgratia a lot :) But I'm going with pristine grace.

I'm going to put a ton of articles there about the Gospel and the law of Christ. :)

Brandan

Brandan
07-09-04, 05:09 AM
LOL, ok, the home page is BACK. A lot of people didn't like the change, and I agree, it was kind of confusing....SOOOoooo.... anyhoo, 5solas.org isn't going to change one bit.

I however am going to be working on pristinegrace.org

You can get to it by going to

http://www.pristinegrace.org (http://www.pristinegrace.org/) .com .net
or
http://www.hyper-calvinist.org (http://www.hyper-calvinist.org/)
or
http://www.hypercalvinist.org (http://www.hypercalvinist.org/)
or
http://www.hyper-calvinism.org (http://www.hyper-calvinism.org/)
or
http://www.hypercalvinism.org (http://www.hypercalvinism.org/)
or
http://www.bornagain.net (http://www.bornagain.net/)
or
http://www.supralapsarian.org
or
http://www.antinomian.org


The reason I have registered the hyper-calvinist/hyper-calvinism domains is because I intend on using them as information about so-called hyper-calvinism. I will use them to point to a set of specific articles that will take Phil Johnson's article on hyper-calvinism and DISSECT it and show how awful his stance is.... :eek:

Further, I intend on giving individuals who agree with me on the Gospel Doctrine an opportunity to have an e-mail address with hyper-calvinist.org. I'm hoping that by adopting the name, it will no longer seem as "stinging" an insult by those who reject God's absolute sovereignty.

ugly_gaunt_cow
07-09-04, 01:34 PM
What will be the main focus of the site? Who's your target audience?

I only ask because "pristine grace" seems to be lacking sort of 'je ne sais qua'.

Brandan
07-09-04, 02:36 PM
PristineGrace.org
Focus: the Gospel and short articles about it. Dealing with the simple themes of the Gospel.
Target Audience: All people. I want it to be something that almost anyone can sit down and read without much too much education.


5solas.org
Focus: The Gospel. But a feel that appeals more to those into studying theology. Consider it the "advanced" version of pristinegrace.org. Longer articles and BOOKS are here.
Target: All people, but with a bent toward the more "learned" individuals. I want it to be very similar to trinityfoundation.org in terms of article quality.

Brandan
07-10-04, 09:14 AM
http://www.pristinegrace.org/images/logo.jpg

ugly_gaunt_cow
07-10-04, 11:55 AM
I like the water drops of water. A very intelligent use of iconography there. :cool:

Kudos, Brother.

disciple
07-12-04, 11:01 AM
The reason I have registered the hyper-calvinist/hyper-calvinism domains is because I intend on using them as information about so-called hyper-calvinism. I will use them to point to a set of specific articles that will take Phil Johnson's article on hyper-calvinism and DISSECT it and show how awful his stance is.... :eek:

Further, I intend on giving individuals who agree with me on the Gospel Doctrine an opportunity to have an e-mail address with hyper-calvinist.org. I'm hoping that by adopting the name, it will no longer seem as "stinging" an insult by those who reject God's absolute sovereignty.so are you saying that you would identify yourself as a hyper-calvinist?

Brandan
07-12-04, 11:19 AM
so are you saying that you would identify yourself as a hyper-calvinist?I don't think there is such a thing as a hyper-calvinist. There are some that don't believe in preaching the Gospel.. There are also others that don't believe the elect necessarily come to faith in this life. These you could consider to be "hyper-calvinists", but I simply believe that they are disobedient to God's Word.

Phil Johnson says I'm a hyper-calvinist. So do most calvinists today. Yet I'm not against preaching the Gospel to all indiscriminately. What they don't like is my belief that God hates the reprobate and has no love for him at all. They also don't like that I think that God does not "desire" the salvation of all men (elect and reprobate). Yes, that's what Phil Johnson thinks! I'm a harsh hyper-calvinist, and depending on who you talk to, this would also make me a "heretic." LOL So yes, in that sense, I believe you can call me a "hyper-calvinist" although the name means nothing to me. What bothers me is its a word flung around so liberally as an insult.

disciple
07-12-04, 12:06 PM
I don't think there is such a thing as a hyper-calvinist....although the name means nothing to me. What bothers me is its a word flung around so liberally as an insult.but the word does have historical content and meaning to it, does it not? there is an actual historical context from which this derogatory term derives. even if the word means nothing to you, it does mean something to others. and if it were me, i would just be careful to distance myself from any identification with what has been historically seen as schismatic and heretical (or at least clarify and qualify profusely so that i'm not misunderstood). many such terms carry much baggage with them that it is hard to get rid of no matter how hard one tries and how adamantly one denies the existence or validity of such term. that's my two cents anyway...

Skeuos Eleos
07-12-04, 01:25 PM
I share Doug's concern but at the same I like the idea of a site that would specifically set out to define what the term means (or rather how pointless the term actually is) and to debunk the many erroneous definitions that are given. The main problem with this term is that it can mean so many different things to different people. I think many use the term without really understanding the issues at stake or the history behind the debates that first sparked the use of the term and even more simply accept the meaning and implication given to them by others. I think it would be good to get a good discussion of this out in the open but at the same time I would agree with the need to be distanced from it for fear of misunderstanding.

my 2 cents.

Martin

Brandan
07-12-04, 02:07 PM
Well here's the thing. Not once in history is there a person that has adopted the descriptor "hyper-calvinist" for his person that I know of. It has always been a derogatory name given by someone else to that individual. I'm the first person I've met that has adopted the label, not because I truly recognize what I am, but because I'm answering the fool according to his folly.

"Yes, I'm a harsh mean cold hyper-calvinist!!! :eek::eek::eek: " I mean who in their right mind would say such a thing. NOBODY! And if people can't see the facetiousness in this comment, well I feel sorry for them.

Historically, the hyper-calvinism controversy arose out of disputes between spurgeon's and andrew fuller's followers and the followers of John Gill. Both sides of the debate were in error in one way or another, although I definitely fall on Gill's side. The division resulted in bitter name calling by followers of Spurgeon, and the name-calling hasn't relented since! In recent years, in response to the name calling the "hypers" have coined the term "hypo-calvinism".

So here I am - a hyper-calvinist to some and a Christian to others. Do I care what you call me? Not at all - hyper-calvinist, antinomian, heretic, these names mean nothing to me. The only thing I care talking about really is Christ and Him crucified.

GraceAmbassador
07-12-04, 03:47 PM
The main problem with this term is that it can mean so many different things to different people.and
Well here's the thing. Not once in history is there a person that has adopted the descriptor "hyper-calvinist" for his person that I know of. It has always been a derogatory name given by someone else to that individual. I'm the first person I've met that has adopted the label, not because I truly recognize what I am, but because I'm answering the fool according to his folly.

"Yes, I'm a harsh mean cold hyper-calvinist!!! :eek::eek::eek: " I mean who in their right mind would say such a thing. NOBODY! And if people can't see the facetiousness in this comment, well I feel sorry for them.

Historically, the hyper-calvinism controversy arose out of disputes between spurgeon's and andrew fuller's followers and the followers of John Gill. Both sides of the debate were in error in one way or another, although I definitely fall on Gill's side. The division resulted in bitter name calling by followers of Spurgeon, and the name-calling hasn't relented since! In recent years, in response to the name calling the "hypers" have coined the term "hypo-calvinism".

So here I am - a hyper-calvinist to some and a Christian to others. Do I care what you call me? Not at all - hyper-calvinist, antinomian, heretic, these names mean nothing to me. The only thing I care talking about really is Christ and Him crucified.Unfortunately, the revival of this name calling is due to what is happening today in the internet and, specifically, at PalTalk. Actually, I have found that in my case, when someone labels me a "hyper-calvinist" nowadays, they mean: "You inhumane, cold blooded, hard headed, hard heart, hard shell, ornary, stubborn, high nose, arrogant, unloving, un-christian, un-american Short of Breath (or what the initials for Short of Breath may mean)".

It is not a thelological indictment or any reasonable placing of one's into a specific theological category. Also, it is (at least in my case) so far from the truth that it becomes hillarious and worthy only of a "self assumption" of the label just to make it even more ridiculous.

Usually it is because (again in my case) I prefer to use "tender mercies" instead of the term "common grace" for whatever type of love God demonstrates to the wicked (or unelect), and because of the other factors Brandan mentions above. These factors are indeed reasonable theological points upon which one may land their conclusions and inferences on the rights and prerrogatives of the unelect as opposed to the sacrificial love God demonstrates towards the elect and in most cases is a purely semantic difference. As such, the labeling is unjustifiable and it is worse than anything "hyper-calvinism" believes because it is "name calling" and "bearing false witness".

There is no doubt in my mind that the discussions about the factors mentioned above by Brandan are open and ongoing. However, if when one debating party hears the other say: "I don't believe in common grace", he immediately thinks of the other party as the things I mention above, then they have a problem! A probelm that can be described by an ancient Brazilian saying, that I repeat here for your reflection:

A dog that was once bitten by a snake will run away scared to death of a sausage link.

Phobias can happen for many reasons. Perhaps the labelers have been bitten by the snake of "calvinism" before and are now, at the very least appearance of something as harmless as a sausage link, that, is long, round, but it does not move or bite, running scared in a panic driven phobia...

For those who label me a "hyper-calvinist" as to the definition I gave above, I have another label:
calvinisticphobic

Milt

wildboar
07-12-04, 05:45 PM
I like the water droplets too, there's some sprinkling going on:D and no immersion.

Brandan
07-12-04, 05:50 PM
Charles... funny!

Bob Higby
07-12-04, 09:10 PM
Calvinisticphobic! How many hundreds have I known?

Another interesting question, who claims the name ANTI-NOMIAN :eek: ! I know of one brother, a studied Ph.D., who claims the title in the same manner that Brandan is claiming the hyper-Calvinist label. The extreme wing of the Sabbatarians has been calling anyone who takes a divergent position anti-nomian for hundreds of years. Yet who claims the title? Better yet, what professing Christian group actually teaches that the practice of sin in a spirit of lawlessness makes no difference whatsoever (which is what a true antinomian would believe)?

There really are Calvinists who claim the term 'hardshell' and believe:
1. No free proclamation of the gospel is needed.
2. Non-elect man is entirely unaccountable to the gospel.
3. Regeneration is privatistic and performed by the Holy Spirit secretly--entirely divorced from hearing or perceiving the message of the gospel.
4. There is no inward witness of the Spirit giving assurance through faith in the gospel. The fact that one believes (in the 'amen' sense) the message of the gospel in no way demonstrates election or non-election.

I do think we need to distance ourselves from these 4 'hyper' views, in the same way that we would distance ourselves from the 'hypo' views of Amyraut and similar teachings (now termed hypo-Calvinism).

Brandan
07-13-04, 05:13 AM
There really are Calvinists who claim the term 'hardshell' and believe:
1. No free proclamation of the gospel is needed.
2. Non-elect man is entirely unaccountable to the gospel.
3. Regeneration is privatistic and performed by the Holy Spirit secretly--entirely divorced from hearing or perceiving the message of the gospel.
4. There is no inward witness of the Spirit giving assurance through faith in the gospel. The fact that one believes (in the 'amen' sense) the message of the gospel in no way demonstrates election or non-election.

I do think we need to distance ourselves from these 4 'hyper' views, in the same way that we would distance ourselves from the 'hypo' views of Amyraut and similar teachings (now termed hypo-Calvinism).This is not hyper-calvinism. This is just insane disobedience to God's word! I can't imagine anyone holding to these beliefs, and I would have to say if someone did, they DO NOT know the GOspel of our Lord.

By the way Bob, I've also taken on the antinomian name because of my anti-sabbatarian stance and the fact that I'm often called an antinomian by people on paltalk. I've also discovered that if you're a supralapsarian, you will be called an antinomian because of the fact that God decrees sin. I got so tired of being called an antinomian that I registered antinomian.org :eek: :eek: :eek: .

Brandan

Skeuos Eleos
07-13-04, 05:59 AM
So many labels - how silly it all gets!

There is so much scope for ridiculing the whole idea of labelling. Here are some random thoughts and suggestions for Hyper-Calvinst.org:

Here at Hyper-Calvinist.Org we are glad to be called Hyper-Calvinist. After all, as someone once said: you not a proper Calvinist until someone calls you a hyper-calvinist!

We're hyper-Spurgeonist, hyper-Johnsonist, hyper-Fullerite, Hyper-Van-Tillian, Hyper-Murrayite (X2), Hyper-Banner-of-Truth, Hyper-Amyraldian, Hyper-Augustinian, Hyper-Lutheran, Hyper-Baxterite, Hyper-Marrow-Men, Hyper-Bonarite, Hyper-McCheynite, Hyper-MacArthurite, Hyper-Piperite but NOT HYPER-PAULINE! We're not hyper-everything: we're Hypo-Sandemanian, Hypo-Carpenterite, Hypo-Gnostic, etc but definitely NOT Hypo- the gospel of God's sovereign free grace in Christ Jesus! Well, that should make it abundantly clear what we believe!

I'm not sure how we would rate ourselves against heretics like Barth. Maybe we need an official Hyper/Hypo calculator? You could feed in all the things they said that we think went too far and it would compare it to the number of quotes that we think didn't go far enough and, if it is higher then it would give us a "Hypo" score in comparison to them and, if it came out lower, it would give us a "Hyper" score. That would be a neat little tool! Everyone who comes onto the site could test themselves against their own chosen standard of Hyper-Calvinism! You could even have a "Hyper-Calvinist" league table where people post their scores and the computer interprets their results like:

====
80-100% - Congratulations! You are bona-fide Hyper-Calvinist. You rank amongst the historical all-time greats. Your favorite pastime is sitting in a bar downing a few bars whilst reflecting that God would have saved some of His Elect whilst you were sat there.
60-80% - You are well on your way to becoming a Hyper-Calvinist. You need to work on resisting those thoughts you have when you see a cute little kid and you think 'surely God loves that little kid!". Try to avoid telling so many people the gospel - after all you wouldn't want to give a reprobate a false sense of security.

...

0-20% - O dear! My, you have a long way to go! We suggest you start by actually reading your bible!

etc
====

You could have a Hyper-Calvinist Hall of Fame where those accused of being Hyper-Calvinist are ranked - Gill, Toplady and even Mr Calvin himself would come out pretty near the top whilst Fuller, Murray and Co would be way down the bottom.

At least 30 different definitions of the phrase "Hyper-Calvinist" may be found by searching the Internet - so will the real John Calvin please stand up?

Ok, we admit it, we're Hyper-Calvinist - there, does that make you feel better now?

Everyone seems to be using labels these days - is this "Lable Bable"?

Not sure if you use the same phrase in the US but in the UK if someone is weak and useless we might say they're 'wet' so, if someone claims to be a Calvinist but shies away from entering into any debate with an Arminian does that make them a Hydro-Calvinist?

If someone gives several different definitions of what they believe does that make them a Hydra-Calvinist?

Is someone who is quick to label someone a Hyper-Calvinist a Hyper-labelist?

Martin
(Hope my mischievous sense of humor isn't too wacky for you serious Americans!)

Brandan
07-13-04, 06:42 AM
Very funny Martin! I like it!