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Bob Higby
09-13-04, 09:04 PM
So what about the doctrine of hell?

1. Are the torments of hell without end?
2. Are the torments of hell without measure (unmitigated with any sense of God's goodness)?
3. Is there a hell at all for reprobates whom God has destined to go there?
4. What exactly is the nature of hell anyway?

What are your thoughts?

tomas1
09-14-04, 03:14 AM
I’ll take these in reverse order
4. What exactly is the nature of hell anyway?

I don’t know exactly but hell is a place for punishment and wrath its purpose is to show the glory of God’s justice. I don’t however see it as a cosmic torture chamber we will be able to look upon it and be convinced of God’s glory. We will know that the punishment is fair.

3. Is there a hell at all for reprobates whom God has destined to go there?

Yep, the Bible is plain

2. Are the torments of hell without measure (unmitigated with any sense of God's goodness)?

I think reprobates will continue to see his goodness but to a much smaller extent. For the same reason that we will always be conscious of Christ’s sufferings on our behalf.

1.Are the torments of hell without end?
Today I lean toward yes but because God chooses to keep the reprobate alive not because there is anything naturally immortal in them.

I also have some issues I hope this thread will help me with. Will the reprobate ever acknowledge that God is just to them or will they cry “poor me” for eternity? If they will forever be in a state of rebellion how can we say that all his enemies will have been defeated?

I’m looking forward to having God teach me a lot here.

Mickey
09-14-04, 06:10 AM
I must admit first I have to be pruned of my ideas of hell that have been shaped by my past arminian, dispensational tradition. So I'm not dogmatic about these things, but I have some thoughts of what they might be. Here goes...

1.Are the torments of hell without end?

Yes.
Rev 14:9-11
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

2. Are the torments of hell without measure (unmitigated with any sense of God's goodness)?
I can't think of any scriptures off hand, but I'm sure since you posted these questions Bob you have some references. ;) I do know Christ said that there would be weeping and nashing of teeth, and He likens hell to a furnace of fire (Matt 13:42 & 50), and outer darkness(Matt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30). But I think that the hardness of the hearts of the reprobate will be as such that their hatered will burn with such intensity that they will not see, or acknowledge God's goodness.

That is a good question because will they be able to understand that God is Holy and His wrath is a Holy wrath, and therefore what He is doing is good?

3. Is there a hell at all for reprobates whom God has destined to go there?

Yes, I agree with tomas1, the Bible is very clear on this issue. But I say that with a sneaky suspicion that there is a catch to this question. ;)

4. What exactly is the nature of hell anyway?
All I know is that Rev 14:10 is very descriptive in that there will be some suffering going on forever and ever.



Originally posted by tomas1
Will the reprobate ever acknowledge that God is just to them or will they cry “poor me” for eternity?
Rom 14:10-11 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."

I have heard this scripture used to say that one day everyone that has ever existed will one day "bow the knee." But I don't know if this is a faithful interpritation of this scripture, because in the context Paul is speaking of 'brother judging brother.'

Skeuos Eleos
09-14-04, 04:45 PM
BT:
So what about the doctrine of hell?

1. Are the torments of hell without end?
Absolutely!

2. Are the torments of hell without measure (unmitigated with any sense of God's goodness)?
By without measure I assume you mean without limit. Assuming you do, I believe they are not - i.e. they are limited. If they were really unlimited, they would be unbearable. How could someone enduring unbearable torture have a sensible conversation? (Luke 16)

3. Is there a hell at all for reprobates whom God has destined to go there?Yes. Although it might not be called hell since the word Gehenna, translated as 'hell', was figurative, being the name of a valley in Israel.

4. What exactly is the nature of hell anyway?
Tough one. I think the various descriptions used are all symbolic, making it hard to define apart from what these images portray.

Tomas1:
Will the reprobate ever acknowledge that God is just to them or will they cry “poor me” for eternity?
Not sure on this one! Perhaps the answer lies somewhere between the two extremes of continued and complete rebellion on the one hand and regret on the other? Does the "rich man" teach us anything here?

Luke 16:27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

One thought I have is that God holds the reprobate accountable for his sins. Yet are not reprobates pretty much ignorant of their sins? Thus I think that in judging them God will show them their sins leading me to think that they will have regrets. Perhaps this gives us a glimpse of the awful nature of their punishment: granted a glimpse of the Holy God whom they have offended and a deep sense of immovable guilt? Yet I think he will still hate God. But then that sounds contradictory so I'm gonna quit now and say I just don't know!

If they will forever be in a state of rebellion how can we say that all his enemies will have been defeated? Well, perhaps we can say that because God's redemptive plans have been fulfilled? They have certainly been rendered powerless and ineffectual, unable to trouble God's Elect - an uncrossable great gulf has been fixed keeping them away - sounds pretty defeated to me. :)

Martin

Bob Higby
09-14-04, 07:54 PM
On the subject of the putting down of God's enemies, I believe that 1 Cor. 15:20-28 (a passage I will refer to a lot, since it is one of my favorite) is very enlightening. It is the subjection of his enemies to the Lordship and absolute rule of Christ that will end their rebellion. The perfection and justice of the final order is achieved, not by the end of rebellion in the hearts of the reprobate--but by the end of their ability to wage war against Christ in any successful outward act of rebellion. The kingdom of darkness is finally at an end; it has been absorbed into the kingdom of light. Even wrath and hell shall exalt the light of God's glory and be included in the kingdom subjected to God the Father.

The four questions have been answered honestly and straight-forward; I have little to argue with. I would like to begin this discussion with the Old Testament. Which OT scriptures focus specifically on the final judgment of God in the conscious punishment of the wicked? Dan. 12:2 is explicit and perhaps we can begin our discussion there. Before we do that, should any other scriptures be included? I'm not referring to the massive number of references to the wicked being destroyed in the end. These are true enough--but might also be used to support a view of annihilation, unless additional evidence exists that the souls of the wicked will be kept conscious.

thetimbo
09-15-04, 05:19 AM
Hello Bill,

Strangely enough, three weeks ago I began my own systematic study of Hell.

For those who haven't, the three doctrinal positions are known as Universalism, Annihilationism, and the historic church teaching called Eternal Torment.

It sounds Bill, like you're quite aways along in your own study. I should be through shortly, and would like to comment at that time.

If it's any help, Psalm 11:5-6 appears to offer a view that is quite sweeping in it's indictment, with the advantage of NOT having been inspired by one of the prophets.

Those verses of fire and brimstone attributed to prophets being disadvantaged in this discussion, in that in many cases fulfillment can be shown to have taken place in either of the destructions of Jerusalem.

Tim

disciple
09-15-04, 08:54 AM
Although it might not be called hell since the word Gehenna, translated as 'hell', was figurative, being the name of a valley in Israelbut there is also another word translated this way as well--hADHS (hades). the translation goes back to the early english version where neither term was distinguished when translated. from looking at the etymology of the word (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=hell&x=0&y=0), i can see why they translated hADHS with it, but i cannot understand why they rendered GEENNA (gehenna) that way. perhaps they understood them as synonyms (as the place/state of final judgment for the wicked) and so translated them identically. perhaps someone here knows more about the history here.

nevertheless, i think it is clear that what we're talking about here is the eternal place/state of judgment for the wicked. whether we call it hell, hades, gehenna, or whatever...it's just a convenient label to refer to something in human terms which we can actually not even fathom. as paul says, we are speaking in human terms (ANQRWPINOS). we must always understand that there is probably a gap (or even a great chasm...pardoning the pun, cf. Lk 16) between our human understanding and the reality of things eternal. anyway, just to put some perspective into the discussion.

tomas1
09-15-04, 02:41 PM
Tim said:
For those who haven't, the three doctrinal positions are known as Universalism, Annihilationism, and the historic church teaching called Eternal Torment.

Those Christians who hold to Conditional Immortality would grimace at your including their view with the Annihilationism of the JWs. ;)


BT said:
The perfection and justice of the final order is achieved, not by the end of rebellion in the hearts of the reprobate--but by the end of their ability to wage war against Christ in any successful outward act of rebellion.

Does this change Hell from a place of punishment to a quarantine area sort of like the way we now store smallpox in a secure area after banishing it from the population? If God must continually put forth effort not only to keep the reprobate alive but also to prevent them from contaminating the rest of creation can we say that they are truly defeated?

Please understand I am not debate this again I just trying to get my mind around it all.

The kingdom of darkness is finally at an end; it has been absorbed into the kingdom of light.
If the kingdom of light exists in our hearts why can’t the kingdom of darkness exist in a reprobate heart?

ugly_gaunt_cow
09-15-04, 02:47 PM
If the kingdom of light exists in our hearts why can’t the kingdom of darkness exist in a reprobate heart?
It probably does... But their gates won't prevail againts our attacks. ::D

Bob Higby
09-16-04, 07:28 PM
Tim: Having studied this intensely for about 25 years, I would also propose that universalism, annihilation, and eternal torment are certainly not the only 3 positions. As 'broad categories' of belief this may be somewhat of a correct evaluation, however, within each of these there are many variances of teaching. A fourth position or broad category is that of 'mystery'--and it has no small number of adherents. These teach that we cannot know the exact nature of the end of the wicked (especially on the matter of UNENDING suffering vs. AGES of suffering)--proposing that the teaching of the Bible, when viewed in its entirety, is not explicit on these details

Ps. 11:5,6 is not a clear reference to eternal, conscious punishment and is used also by those who teach final extinction (eventual end of conscious punishment).

I was hoping that someone would bring up Isa. 66:23,24 because that is where we should start this exchange re: the Old Testament (in my opinion). What is Isa. 66:23,24 really teaching? Opinions by scholars are legion and varied. Do the corpses mentioned in the passage feel conscious pain from the fire and worms; is that what Isaiah had in mind when he wrote it? Many, of course, believe that the imagery of Gehenna in the NT comes from these verses.

Tomas:
Does this change Hell from a place of punishment to a quarantine area sort of like the way we now store smallpox in a secure area after banishing it from the population?

No, that is not what I had in mind at all! The idea here is that the wicked are rendered powerless.

If God must continually put forth effort not only to keep the reprobate alive but also to prevent them from contaminating the rest of creation can we say that they are truly defeated?

On the 'contamination' part I don't see what you're getting at. The righteous, being made immortal and incorruptible, cannot be contaminated by sin or the presence of reprobate souls. On 'effort', God is not busy and needs to put forth no 'effort' in the human sense to accomplish his will. As far as whether the reprobate are created as eternal souls & kept alive by the will of God, that is a topic for discussion here.

The kingdom of God/heaven/light is not merely his rule in the hearts of his people. That is a GROSS misconception that so many have today (I'm not saying that Tomas believes this at all but I'm using the occassion to clarify my position). Christ has been exalted as Lord of ALL things (material as well as spiritual).

thetimbo
09-17-04, 05:02 AM
Having studied this intensely for about 25 years . . . [QUOTE]

Twenty five years and still no conclusion, Bill? Perhaps I should call off
the dogs now . . . ;)

Tim

Mickey
09-17-04, 07:23 AM
While keeping in step with God's 'absolute predestination' of all things, I was thinking about how that would apply to the suffering of the reprobate in Hell.

Let me see if I can make this clear, and you guys can tell me if I'm off here. As far as our perception goes it appears that we have 'free-will', but we know from the word of God that we do not have free-will. Only by special revelation do we now understand that all things--and that includes our sin--has been predestined and are controled by God. Yet we cannot 'feel' God moving us, or sence with some kind of sixth sence that I am being turned by God, but yet we know this is true. Now when the reprobate is suffering in Hell, God would be the source of all of that suffering. Since that is true then it would flow that they would be conscious of that suffering, since they would be a 'living' vessle that God was working out this suffering in. In other words can God make rocks suffer? No, because they are not concious, but humans are; and we know that God is the source of all our actions.

So it seems simple to me, if all the above is true (if you can understand it that is):p , then all we have to establish is if the Bible says Hell is without end. Then conciousness part is then solved, because there isn't suffering without conciousness, and nothing is in existance thats not being controled by God.

Mike

tomas1
09-17-04, 09:33 AM
On the 'contamination' part I don't see what you're getting at. The righteous, being made immortal and incorruptible, cannot be contaminated by sin or the presence of reprobate souls.

The righteous can’t be contaminated even today we are kept secure by the Spirit. However reprobate souls will without Gods protective providence mess up the creation this is the reason why God confused the languages at Babel. And why God cleansed the earth with the flood.


On 'effort', God is not busy and needs to put forth no 'effort' in the human sense to accomplish his will.
Col 1:17He is before all things, and in him all things are held together.

Although God’s “effort” is not the same as humans if God did nothing the reprobate like every thing else in creation would cease to exist. As much as they would like to deny it they like us have no independent existence. It is very important to remember that our God is not the god of the deist he is actively involved in his creation.
I’m not saying that you (Bt) would disagree with this I just feel that in light of the hell stories that are told today we need to constantly remind ourselves of this fact.

As far as whether the reprobate are created as eternal souls & kept alive by the will of God, that is a topic for discussion here.

Could you define (eternal souls) for me?

The kingdom of God/heaven/light is not merely his rule in the hearts of his people. That is a GROSS misconception that so many have today

I whole-heartedly agree. This is exactly what I was trying to get at in the amill thread. I asked the question because I think that this is something Amills need to deal with

Peace and thanks

tomas1
09-17-04, 09:56 AM
Reformed SSgt says:
then all we have to establish is if the Bible says Hell is without end. Then conciousness part is then solved, because there isn't suffering without conciousness, and nothing is in existance thats not being controled by God.
The question that might be asked is does eternal punishment require eternal suffering. It might be said that the death penalty is an eternal punishment its forever it cant be revoked except by resurrection but it does not involve eternal suffering. And Jesus’ crucifixion although lasting only a short time removed our sin for all eternity

Once again forgive me if it seems I am debating. I agree with you guys I just want to vanquish all my doubts and I know this is the crew to do it. ;)

ugly_gaunt_cow
09-17-04, 12:35 PM
The question that might be asked is does eternal punishment require eternal suffering. It might be said that the death penalty is an eternal punishment its forever it cant be revoked except by resurrection but it does not involve eternal suffering.Mark 9:44 (NKJV) where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'

Mark 9:46 (NKJV) where Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'

Mark 9:48 (NKJV) where Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'

Job 33:29 30, (NKJV) "Behold, God works all these things, Twice, in fact, three times with a man, To bring back his soul from the Pit, That he may be enlightened with the light of life."

I think the bible is clear on the reality of eternal suffering, rather than an everlasting punishment of being "snuffed out" into nothingness.

I cannot recall the verses off hand, but I know scriptures speaks of God being the one to torment the unbeliever in Hell... Give me some time to see if I can find it.

Scott

tomas1
09-17-04, 01:08 PM
I knew it would not take long before the undying worm and fire came up. These are a references to Isaiah 66. Does the worm refer to the reprobate’s soul or to the unending nature of the disgrace? in Is 66:24 the worm and fire feed on corpses something unconscious by definition.

Ivor Thomas
09-17-04, 03:28 PM
Revelation 14;11, ``and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever, and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.'' These words obviously refer to the punishment of the lost. The smoke of the torment of these lost ones is said to go up for ever and ever. Though we must not think of literal smoke here, the expression is meaningless if it is not intended to picture, in a vivid way, punishment which will never end. If the lost where reduced to non- existence, how could the smoke of their torment go up endlessly?.We are further told here revelation 14;11 that the individuals here described have no rest day and night. Annihilation can not be pictured here, for annihilation would mean a kind of rest. Ivor Thomas. :cool:

Brandan
09-17-04, 03:55 PM
I firmly oppose annihilationism... I am curious - how can one make a stand for everlasting life in Christ without also making a case for everlasting death outside of Him?

disciple
09-17-04, 04:37 PM
I firmly oppose annihilationism... I am curious - how can one make a stand for everlasting life in Christ without also making a case for everlasting death outside of Him?is anyone here advocating annihilationism? if so, speak up! let's talk ;)

tomas1
09-17-04, 04:52 PM
is anyone here advocating annihilationism? if so, speak up! let's talk

not me :)

tomas1
09-17-04, 05:30 PM
Ivor Thomas says:

If the lost where reduced to non- existence, how could the smoke of their torment go up endlessly?.
The same way the worms of Isa 66 could live forever on corpses because God wanted to make their punishment always evident to the elect.

66:24They shall go forth, and look on the dead bodies of the men who have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring to all flesh


We are further told here revelation 14;11 that the individuals here described have no rest day and night. Annihilation can not be pictured here, for annihilation would mean a kind of rest.
How do you know that nonexistence is a kind of rest? Do you have scripture or experience to back that up? It could be. But a case can be made that it could also be worse than hell notice the contrast between the fate of the wicked in verse 24 with the Gift God gives his elect ?

66:22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, says Yahweh, so shall your seed and your name remain

I feel that before I am branded as even more of a heretic I should explain to those new here why I hold to eternal consciousness for the wicked. It is only because death is listed as an enemy for Christ to defeat in 1st Cor 15 and because I feel there are no important doctrines threatened by believing as such I am willing to submit to the majority judgments of the church in this disputable matter. However I don’t think we should base our doctrine on myths or vague texts to do so would be no better than the freewillers

That’s why this thread is so needed we all need to develop a more Biblical understanding of hell

Brandan
09-17-04, 05:43 PM
is anyone here advocating annihilationism? if so, speak up! let's talk ;)I don't think anyone here is, I was just adding a comment :)

Bob Higby
09-17-04, 07:44 PM
Tim:
Having studied this intensely for about 25 years . . .
Twenty five years and still no conclusion, Bill? Perhaps I should call off
the dogs now . . . ;)

Oh, I have definite conclusions! I'm writing like one who doesn't at times--only to get others to state their arguments so I can hear what they are thinking. Sort of like a journalist I guess! I feel that I must be able to defend a position the opposite of mine as well as any apologist for that position. Maybe we could start a 'mock debate' thread where I always respectfully act as the 'oppositon' on topics. Wouldn't that be interesting?

Scott: Keep up the good work, brother! You certainly have come to know your Bible well since the Lord breathed spiritual life into you!

Mike:
Now when the reprobate is suffering in Hell, God would be the source of all of that suffering. Since that is true then it would flow that they would be conscious of that suffering, since they would be a 'living' vessle that God was working out this suffering in. In other words can God make rocks suffer? No, because they are not concious, but humans are; and we know that God is the source of all our actions. So it seems simple to me, if all the above is true (if you can understand it that is):p , then all we have to establish is if the Bible says Hell is without end. Then conciousness part is then solved, because there isn't suffering without conciousness, and nothing is in existance thats not being controled by God.

For sure. That is indeed what we are trying to establish and also the nature of final punishment. I think it is important to realize that 'hell' is not really a good word for this topic--since it is used as a common word to translate a variety of biblical words. Also, many Bible passages dealing with the subject do not use it but other terms ('resurrection of damnation', 'eternal judgment', 'everlasting shame and contempt', 'lake of fire', etc.).

Tomas:
On the issue of 'God not busy' I really meant that he meets no opposition in carrying out his will and therefore does not work in the human sense to fulfill his purposes. He only did 'hard labor' type work when he took on human nature in Christ.

It goes without saying that I'm opposed to EVERY aspect of Deistic theology.

I agree that some a-mil teaching is prone to view the kingdom of God as strictly his rule in the hearts of mankind. That is serious false doctrine. But the same falsehood has also been opposed by many other amillenialists--so it is not fundamental to the position.

Ivor: Your quote is almost word for word from Anthony Hoekema ("The Four Major Cults", pp. 363, 364; later re-published in chapter 19 of "The Bible and the Future") so you should be giving credit.

Back to my question: did Isaiah have conscious suffering in mind when he wrote about the fire and worms? I'm against projecting future interpretation back into the language of the original passage.

Ivor Thomas
09-18-04, 02:00 AM
Tomas I meant the wicked could not be annihilated, because that would be entering a type of rest,wherehas it says they have no rest day and night, and we of course know that the saved enter into is rest.Thanks:cool: Ivor Thomas.

ugly_gaunt_cow
09-18-04, 02:22 AM
About those worms...

I have serious doubts as to the "worms" being a depiction of "feeding death".

I had a Pastor once tell me that Christ used the word 'worms' in His warning because we usually come to associate worms with death; sort of like eating dirt, crawling in and out of octal cavities, and the such.

These 'worms' that 'do not die' are the lying, manipulative, wretched unrepentant sinners who think they can pull the wool over God's eyes and do what they please by trampling on His truth, in light of the evidence of His existence, however remote that evidence may be to the blinded mind.

Shorty after being brought to the knowledge of 'a slave set free', I had the most terrify bout of chastisement only second to one I had experienced on a later date. And this is precisely the concept that the Lord linked to my understanding of those verses upon first reading them.

I would like to suggest the following verses as means to support this:

Phil 2:6-7, (KJV)

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Ps 22:1-6, (KJV)

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel. Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them. They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded. But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

tomas1
09-18-04, 06:26 AM
Ivor Thomas:
Tomas I meant the wicked could not be annihilated, because that would be entering a type of rest,wherehas it says they have no rest day and night, and we of course know that the saved enter into is rest.

I knew what you meant. I asked for some scripture to prove that non-existence is a type of rest I know that Buddhists think so but in the Bible nonexistence is often pictured as the ultimate humiliation.Here are just a couple of examples there are hundreds

Psalms 37:20But the wicked shall perish.
The enemies of Yahweh shall be like the beauty of the fields.
They will vanish--
Vanish like smoke.
37:28For Yahweh loves justice,
And doesn't forsake his saints.
They are preserved forever,
But the children of the wicked shall be cut off.

37:35I have seen the wicked in great power,
Spreading himself like a green tree in its native soil. 37:36But he passed away, and, behold, he was not.
Yes, I sought him, but he could not be found.

btw I am also praying for your family
Peace

UGC
The scripture you quoted is a very powerful prophecy of Christ’s humiliation. However I’m not so sure you can equate it with the worm and fire texts. They don’t say, “ They are a worm who does not die” they say, “ Their worm doesn't die” they seem to be saying that the worm is not the same as them it is a possession if you like. Maybe WB or disciple could give us incite as to the exact way to read these texts.

ugly_gaunt_cow
09-18-04, 02:43 PM
The text in obivoulsy Messianic without a doubt, but I think the mental and emotional state of anguish and the over whelming "sense of" has a bit to teach as well. It gives an portrayal into the heart and thoughts of the protaginist of the writer's 'story'.

I was trying to point out " I am a worm" alludes to a perception of status on behalf of the the person experiencing the whole terrifying ordeal. A possesion if you like. :)

So, I'm out in left field... When I find the ball I'll let you know :D

I dunno... Maybe I could explain it better in Paltalk, cuz I'm having a hard time doing it here.

Anywhooooo...

Give it a bit deeper thought; if you can't see what I trying to explain then I have to go back to the drawing board. If you can, maybe you could explain it to me so I can explain it to others.



UGC
The scripture you quoted is a very powerful prophecy of Christ’s humiliation. However I’m not so sure you can equate it with the worm and fire texts. They don’t say, “ They are a worm who does not die” they say, “ Their worm doesn't die” they seem to be saying that the worm is not the same as them it is a possession if you like. Maybe WB or disciple could give us incite as to the exact way to read these texts.

Bob Higby
09-18-04, 10:28 PM
Well, I'll let it out (since no one has taken the bait). This is one passage (Isa. 66:24) that I believe ALL the conservative scholars have failed us on. Almost every one of them. Not to agree with any of the skeptics, of course!

There is no way that Isaiah thought the corpses he was writing about were actual living, feeling souls with material dead bodies sensing pain. Rabbinic teaching is way off on this one!

disciple
09-18-04, 10:48 PM
Well, I'll let it out (since no one has taken the bait). This is one passage (Isa. 66:24) that I believe ALL the conservative scholars have failed us on. Almost every one of them. Not to agree with any of the skeptics, of course!

There is no way that Isaiah thought the corpses he was writing about were actual living, feeling souls with material dead bodies sensing pain. Rabbinic teaching is way off on this one!please elaborate bob. thanks!

Eileen
09-19-04, 12:34 PM
BT:

Does the worm=conscience &

Does the fire=the rebellious heart in the reprobate?

Just having a thought, I have never had any definate teaching on hell other than the normal, which is hell is seperation from God.

You said that rebellion in the hearts of the reprobate will never end but they will no longer be able to rebel, so in hell will the suffering be that although their hearts have never been changed (the fire never being quenched), their consciences will suffer (the worm will never die) because they will know the truth and not be able to do anything about it and we will witness that suffering because it will be evident and not hidden and secret?

Way off I'm sure but I'm just thinking aloud.....Thanks!

Bob Higby
09-19-04, 07:45 PM
On Isa. 66:24 not referring to conscious torment of corpses by material fire and worms:

Doug: please elaborate bob. thanks!

Well, I don't have all the traditionalist works of the last 20 years in electronic form to quote: Morey, Peterson, Gerstner, Davies, etc. I have most of them in my library. They go beyond the works of prior centuries in the extreme to which they rely on inter-testamental, Rabbinic, and Patristic teaching to prove the orthodoxy of eternal torment. I propose that all of this is nonsense and means nothing to the debate. The fact that Judith (an inter-testamental Jewish maiden who is the first source of the 'fire and worms' interpretation) came up with all this tells us nothing about the actual teaching of Isaiah. So we have to agree on what is wrong before we can study what is right. I believe that these arguments do not cause those of sound mind to be convinced of the biblical doctrine of eternal punishment, rather, they cause them to doubt it.

Eileen:
Does the worm=conscience

Close, but not quite in my estimation. It represents shame, the human side of eternal judgment (Dan. 12:2). The point about rotting corpses devoured by worms is not that the future resurrected wicked will be corpses feeling worms. Rather, it is that their eternal shame will be likened to a never-ending garbage dump of corpses devoured by worms.

Does the fire=the rebellious heart in the reprobate?

No, not in my estimation. It represents the Divine side of eternal judgment: the contempt (Dan. 12:2) of an everlasting, hating God and all his saints. The internal shame of the reprobate (worm) is caused by the external contempt and hatred of God (an eternal and consuming fire).

Just having a thought, I have never had any definate teaching on hell other than the normal, which is hell is seperation from God.

The Bible never once describes the final judgment of the reprobate as separation from God. We have discussed this in other threads; my position is that the whole point of the biblical doctrine of judgment is this: the wicked will be forever IN his presence, not AWAY FROM his presence.

You said that rebellion in the hearts of the reprobate will never end but they will no longer be able to rebel, so in hell will the suffering be that although their hearts have never been changed (the fire never being quenched), their consciences will suffer (the worm will never die) because they will know the truth and not be able to do anything about it

Well, sort of. I don't believe for a moment that any reprobate soul will ever desire to be saved on God's terms. The parable of Christ of those in outer darkness knocking and begging for entrance is often cited. But a parable is not ultimate reality; it only illustrates it. The kingdom of heaven is LIKE these things--but the reprobate will never desire anything other than to have eternal life in a state where they can indulge their sinful passions to the uttermost.

and we will witness that suffering because it will be evident and not hidden and secret?

You are certainly correct about the public nature of final judgment. So the teaching of many Lutheran scholars I have heard is way off on this one!

Way off I'm sure but I'm just thinking aloud.....Thanks!

Not way off; I appreciate your thoughts and want everyone thinking!

Eileen
09-20-04, 07:17 AM
BT:

My thought was 2 fold:

I was actually thinking that what would be not hidden and secret would be the heart of the reprobate, the thoughts and the intent and the motive of the heart for that is where sin is born, then would be evident to all and for all to see.

Oh what shame and contempt that would bring as the transgressions against God would be evident day and night and day and night, neverending and forever unchangeable.

A thought! Thanks

disciple
09-20-04, 09:12 AM
On Isa. 66:24 not referring to conscious torment of corpses by material fire and worms:

Doug: please elaborate bob. thanks!

Well, I don't have all the traditionalist works of the last 20 years in electronic form to quote: Morey, Peterson, Gerstner, Davies, etc. I have most of them in my library. They go beyond the works of prior centuries in the extreme to which they rely on inter-testamental, Rabbinic, and Patristic teaching to prove the orthodoxy of eternal torment. I propose that all of this is nonsense and means nothing to the debate. The fact that Judith (an inter-testamental Jewish maiden who is the first source of the 'fire and worms' interpretation) came up with all this tells us nothing about the actual teaching of Isaiah. So we have to agree on what is wrong before we can study what is right. I believe that these arguments do not cause those of sound mind to be convinced of the biblical doctrine of eternal punishment, rather, they cause them to doubt it.i don't know that anyone here would argue that this is literal (real worms gnawing at real flesh). it is clear (at least to me) that it is a figure of speech. but what is the figure communicating? that is the question!!


Just having a thought, I have never had any definate teaching on hell other than the normal, which is hell is seperation from God.

The Bible never once describes the final judgment of the reprobate as separation from God. We have discussed this in other threads; my position is that the whole point of the biblical doctrine of judgment is this: the wicked will be forever IN his presence, not AWAY FROM his presence.i think we decided in the other thread that it is both. they are IN the presence of His wrath, but AWAY FROM the presence of His mercy, grace, love, etc. i hope that no one would argue that anyone or anything is ever away from the presence of God in an unqualified sense since He is omnipresent by definition.

Bob Higby
09-20-04, 08:03 PM
Doug: Yes, that is my point: there is no unqualified separation from God. So we agree!

Eileen: Thanks so much for your additional observations; I agree with you! :cool:

tomas1
09-21-04, 03:37 PM
Disciple says:

i don't know that anyone here would argue that this is literal (real worms gnawing at real flesh). it is clear (at least to me) that it is a figure of speech. but what is the figure communicating? that is the question!!

I think that it’s communicating the disgust that the reprobate will be forever viewed with and has nothing to do with the their physical suffering. I am however very interested what others think and why.
I feel that this figure of speech along with the “gnashing of teeth” have caused a lot of misunderstanding in the Church. If you realize the fire and worms are about everlasting shame not pain and the “gnashing of teeth” is about the anger in hell not suffering caused by torture it changes your whole concept of hell.

A lot of the problem is caused by freewiller preachers trying to scare people to the alter the same way bad parents try to scare children with talk of the boogieman. Once the spirit has quickened someone the guilt and shame of our own sin is enough to bring us to our knees we know we have offended God. We can see how he feels about sin in the cross.
Thoughts of Hellfire and worms gnawing on us don’t help much and just lead to false conversions in my opinion.
On the other hand to the persecuted Christian knowing that someday the tables will be turned and no matter how they cry or how mad they get the wicked will be forever looked down on in shame and disgust could be a great comfort.

Eileen
09-21-04, 06:19 PM
Hey T1

I bet you are right...the 'gnashing of teeth' is the anger and frustration of the reprobate because they can no longer fullfill their sinful lusts to their hearts content, cursing God for their plight!

I never thought of it that way before.

Bob Higby
09-21-04, 07:48 PM
Eileen, I agree with you.

Tomas: I feel that this figure of speech along with the “gnashing of teeth” have caused a lot of misunderstanding in the Church. If you realize the fire and worms are about everlasting shame not pain and the “gnashing of teeth” is about the anger in hell not suffering caused by torture it changes your whole concept of hell. A lot of the problem is caused by freewiller preachers trying to scare people to the alter the same way bad parents try to scare children with talk of the boogieman. Once the spirit has quickened someone the guilt and shame of our own sin is enough to bring us to our knees we know we have offended God. We can see how he feels about sin in the cross. Thoughts of Hellfire and worms gnawing on us don’t help much and just lead to false conversions in my opinion. On the other hand to the persecuted Christian knowing that someday the tables will be turned and no matter how they cry or how mad they get the wicked will be forever looked down on in shame and disgust could be a great comfort.

Tomas, you've got it! That is the direction I was trying to head with this discussion. The entire NT is in harmony with Dan. 12:2 and does not change its essential meaning. The Greek banasos (torment) has many meanings but considering the OT background, the NT meaning has to be shame and contempt--not torture akin to the practices of a human dictator against rebels. Any other details of the negative side of the hereafter (beyond 'shame and contempt') are not revealed. It is left to God's surprise. But the main point of the biblical doctrine of judgment is that the people of God will reign triumphantly over the wicked in eternity.

Skeuos Eleos
09-22-04, 02:05 AM
I am also inclined towards this view. I am now beginning to wonder though whether the reprobates will therefore experience regret. Jesus remarks about "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and those whom Jesus says he never knew who exclaim "Lord, Lord look at what we did for you" would seem to indicate that they will.

I don't know why and I don't know where I got it from, but I am just realising as I read this thread that I have always believed in this view of hell. It always seemed to me that the worse thing about eternal torment, worse even than physical suffering, would be to glimpse something of the glory and majesty of God, to understand His righteousness and justice, for ones sins to be laid bare before Him and exposed as the wicked rebellious acts that they are and then to be cast into a place where an uncrossable chasm is fixed knowing that it is too late, there is nothing that can be done about it! Time to see if I had been taught of God or not! ;)

Can anyone think of anything which would suggest that the rebellion against God will continue and that they won't accept His righteous judgements?

Martin

Ivor Thomas
09-22-04, 04:59 AM
The final state of the wicked is permenent, its a fixed gulf that is unalterable.What we need to understand is in eternity time does not exist as we know it,what they are when they enter so they shall be. We must on this thread consider God being eternal,so we can understand more of the doctrine of hell. Ivor Thomas.

Eileen
09-22-04, 12:10 PM
Martin asked:

Will the rebellion continue and the reprobate not accept the righteous judgment of God?

Of coarse we can't know the 'details' as BT has stated other than shame and contempt but in order for the reprobate to not be rebellious and in order for them to accept the righteous judgment of God wouldn't they necessarily have to have a new heart, a heart of flesh and not of stone?? Perhaps it will be so different that we can't even speculate on that, I'm not sure.

I know one thing I am sure of.....in reading through this thread and thinking on the subject....

I've been on my knees!

Mickey
09-22-04, 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by Eileen
but in order for the reprobate to not be rebellious and in order for them to accept the righteous judgment of God wouldn't they necessarily have to have a new heart, a heart of flesh and not of stone??
I think most of us here would agree that no person so much as moves a finger apart from the decree of God, let alone confesses that God's judgement is righteous and truley mean it. We as regenerate believers confess that everything God does is righteous. But there are also people out there that confess the same thing that will not enter the kingdom of heaven (Matt 7:21), and that does not happen apart from God's decree either. They never did understand nor did they truley believe God was righteous.

I think another way of saying Eileen's question would be: does one have to be regenerate to understand and confess that God's judgement is righteous?

I would say yes. Therefor I would conclude that those in eternal suffering will never confess or accept God's judgement as righteous and therefor would forever remain in rebelion to God. The hardness of the heart of the reprobate will be as such that their hatered will burn with such intensity that they will not see, nor will they ever acknowledge God's goodness and righteousness.

I hope that all made sense...:p

Mike

Skeuos Eleos
09-22-04, 02:19 PM
Ok, thankyou Mike and Eileen for those points, I think I was mistakenly assuming that shame must be accompanied by a sense of regret. In fact, it would be incompatible with anger, if that is what the "gnashing of teeth" refers to. I realise now that this 'shame' will probably not be a sense of remorse over what they have done but rather over their lowly, contemptuous state. Perhaps like the rich man in Luke 16, they lived in ease and thought they were something special, counting on their own self-righteousness, but now they are nothing, an object of contempt. So maybe the shame is more to do with how the elect will look upon them rather than how they will feel. It makes sense that they will continue to feel anger towards God, thinking that God should have chosen them because they 'deserve' it.

I think the following passages support this idea of shame:

Jeremiah 13
25 This is your lot,
the portion I have decreed for you,"
declares the LORD ,
"because you have forgotten me
and trusted in false gods.
26 I will pull up your skirts over your face
that your shame may be seen-
27 your adulteries and lustful neighings,
your shameless prostitution!

Nahum 3
5 "I am against you," declares the LORD Almighty.
"I will lift your skirts over your face.
I will show the nations your nakedness
and the kingdoms your shame.
6 I will pelt you with filth,
I will treat you with contempt
and make you a spectacle.


Martin

disciple
09-22-04, 02:33 PM
i just happened to come across the following while doing hermeneutics homework in ramm's protestant biblical interpretation (pp. 99-100):


Holy Scripture is the truth of God accommodated to the human mind so that the human mind can assimilate it...Judgment is spoken of in terms of fire because pain from burning is the most intense pain man encounters in the ordinary experience of life. The gnawing worm is the fitting analogy for the pain that is steady, remorseless, and inescapable...The question as to whether descriptions of hell and heaven are literal or symbolic is not the point. The point is that they are valid, analogical descriptions of inescapable realities. The particular character of those realities will become apparent in their own time.very interesting timing for our current discussion.

Skeuos Eleos
09-22-04, 03:24 PM
I happen to have a copy of this book - not that I buy (or understand!) books like this - it was given to me as a gift. :)

He goes on to say on page 101 that:
The interpreter who is aware of this anthropomorphic character of the divine revelation will not be guilty of grotesque forms of literal exegesis.
'grotesque' is probably going a bit too far, at least in this case, but it certainly seems to be true that most professing Christians in our day take eschatalogical passages such as the ones given in this thread too literally and don't seem to consider that God may be putting things that we cannot understand into language that enables us to understand at least the implications of it, if not the literal meaning.

Of course, this doesn't necessarily help with understanding what the symbolism represents ...


What do you make of the thoughts proffered so far Doug?


Martin

thetimbo
09-22-04, 03:52 PM
Be aware that the worm of Mark 9 and Isaiah 66, that dies not, can be identified from scripture.

Leviticus 14 contains instructions for the priests should they ever see a jew healed of leprosy. Until Yeshua's arrival no jew had ever been healed of leprosy. The jews knew from chapter 14 that if they ever did see this, the messiah had come.

The word translated 'scarlet' in our KJV is 'worm', the same word found in Isaiah 66. The insect is known as the 'scarlet worm'.

This worm, Coccus Ilicis to biologists, has an unusual lifecycle symbolic of the Lord's life. Eat my flesh and drink my blood in remembrance of Me? You'd better take a look at this worm. Had the priests executed these instructions from Leviticus 14 when Yeshua sent them the first healed leper, they would have known the truth.

As if this weren't enough, the Lord describes the passion in Psalm 22 saying with the same word as Isaiah that He is the worm.

The 'scarlet worm' of Leviticus 14 is a symbol of the Messiah's atonement for mankind.

Isaiah 66:24, using a good concordance reads:

Go forth, see the corpse of the man rebel because scarlet worm
no die as penalty , no God's anger quenched , to become
abhorrence to the whole body (or kindred).

Mark 9, where the Lord quotes this passage, repeatedly speaks of removing wicked parts of the body. The parts that reject the death of the scarlet worm.

Still studying, hope this helps.

Tim

disciple
09-22-04, 04:01 PM
'grotesque' is probably going a bit too far, at least in this case, but it certainly seems to be true that most professing Christians in our day take eschatalogical passages such as the ones given in this thread too literally and don't seem to consider that God may be putting things that we cannot understand into language that enables us to understand at least the implications of it, if not the literal meaning.

Of course, this doesn't necessarily help with understanding what the symbolism represents ...


What do you make of the thoughts proffered so far Doug?from ramm or in this thread? did you mean "and not the literal meaning" rather than "if not the literal meaning" above?

i think that the meanings he provided are appropriate to the figure. for example:

Judgment -> fire -> intense pain
Judgment -> gnawing worm -> pain that is steady, remorseless, and inescapable

but i would take it further to say that not only are the fire and worm not literal (they are figures of speech), but the pain is not physical (though it is literal, real, personal, etc.) as if to refer to pain to the flesh.

i believe that the pain, suffering, torment, etc. will be experienced, in some fashion we can only understand now with accommodating language, to the individual (not by physical means as if torture of physical/corporeal flesh but spiritual means to the soul, i.e., to the entity/person/subsistence). perhaps this will take the form of mental anguish and constant emotional sorrow, anger (against God and self), self-pity, self-loathing, anxiousness, hurt, etc. as God relentlessly displays His glory and power and holiness in His enjoyment/pleasure/love of His elect and in His perfect displeasure/hatred of the reprobate.

i really don't think any torture would be necessary as this would be completely appropriate pain for the reprobate to experience for eternity. i really think that torture (physical pain through such things as fire and worms) would be inconsistent with the character of God and He would not lower Himself to such tactics. if He did, He would be no better than the likes of Hitler and Sadaam Hussein. this is not the God that i know and worship.

Ivor Thomas
09-22-04, 04:14 PM
Disciple what are you saying, could you explain dont you think they will have bodies ,or do you think they will be disembodied spirits, because you seem to be leading to the latter. Ivor Thomas..:cool:

disciple
09-22-04, 04:33 PM
Be aware that the worm of Mark 9 and Isaiah 66, that dies not, can be identified from scripture.

Leviticus 14 contains instructions for the priests should they ever see a jew healed of leprosy. Until Yeshua's arrival no jew had ever been healed of leprosy. The jews knew from chapter 14 that if they ever did see this, the messiah had come.

The word translated 'scarlet' in our KJV is 'worm', the same word found in Isaiah 66. The insect is known as the 'scarlet worm'.

This worm, Coccus Ilicis to biologists, has an unusual lifecycle symbolic of the Lord's life. Eat my flesh and drink my blood in remembrance of Me? You'd better take a look at this worm. Had the priests executed these instructions from Leviticus 14 when Yeshua sent them the first healed leper, they would have known the truth.

As if this weren't enough, the Lord describes the passion in Psalm 22 saying with the same word as Isaiah that He is the worm.

The 'scarlet worm' of Leviticus 14 is a symbol of the Messiah's atonement for mankind.

Isaiah 66:24, using a good concordance reads:

Go forth, see the corpse of the man rebel because scarlet worm
no die as penalty , no God's anger quenched , to become
abhorrence to the whole body (or kindred).

Mark 9, where the Lord quotes this passage, repeatedly speaks of removing wicked parts of the body. The parts that reject the death of the scarlet worm.

Still studying, hope this helps.

Timwelcome to the forums tim!

i don't mean to be rude, but your exegesis seems rather fanciful. i don't know that the connections you've made have any validity nor do i see their usefulness in the exegesis/interpretation of the figure at hand.

perhaps you could elaborate on what connection you've actually made, how you've made it, why it's valid, and how this would impact our exegesis/interpretation of the figure of speech used in mk 9.

in addition, your concordant transcription of is 66:24 is rather incoherent. i don't know what it adds to the discussion. at least personally, it helps me very little.

as far as exegesis goes, the worm in isaiah 66:24 (in the Greek, i.e., LXX) and mk 9 is the type that consumes dead bodies.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?layout.reflang=greek;layout.reflookup=skwlhc ;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2395 414

this word (SKWLHX) is not used to translate the Hebrew word TOLA in lev 14. instead the word used is KLWSTOS/KEKLWSMENON

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?layout.reflang=greek;layout.reflookup=klwsto n;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%235 8095
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D %2358067&layout.reflookup=keklwsmenon&layout.reflang=greek

for the Hebrew word (TOLA), it appears that its semantic range is a bit larger than just worm. when doing exegetical work, we must realize that words do not only have one meaning, rather they all have a range or pool of meanings which will change depending on its usage in context. as far as i can tell, the red (scarlet) color for the thread came from the worm. so we would not translate TOLA in lev 14 as worm at all for the idea is not that the priest somehow imagine that the instructions here are to dip a bird, wood, worm, and hyssop in the blood. rather, this was apparently a scarlet colored string.

http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=le&chapter=014&verse=004

so other than the usage of the same word in Lev 14 and Is 66:24 for the Hebrew, there is no similarity of contexts that i can see that would justify confounding their meanings and employing lev 14 in our exegesis/interpetation of the figure in is 66:24 and mk 9.

out of curiosity, why choose lev 14 as a parallel text rather than the many other times it is used in the OT (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=08439). why not instead connect this worm to TOLA, the sons of Issachar (Gen 46:13; Num 26:23; Judges 10:1; 1 Chr 7:1-2) to come up with some other sort of fanciful and elaborate interpretation with a completely different thrust?

therefore, since meaning is defined by usage in context (meaning is not inherent within the word itself but is in the minds of the people; words are only symbols or mental pictures), we must be extremely careful to not make elaborate and novel connections simply because the same word is used. if we were allowed to do this, Scripture would be like a wax nose for us to shape in whatever way we wish. IMHO, this violates the rules of hermeneutics.

disciple
09-22-04, 04:34 PM
Disciple what are you saying, could you explain dont you think they will have bodies ,or do you think they will be disembodied spirits, because you seem to be leading to the latter. Ivor Thomas..:cool:yes i believe that there will be bodies (they will not be disembodied spirits) but i do not think that the pain and suffering is physical/carnal as in torture. i rather believe it will be more mental, spiritual, emotional, etc. does that make sense?

Ivor Thomas
09-22-04, 04:49 PM
Yes idid not mean to say you did not make sense, what kind of bodies is what i was after,because they wont be glorified bodies, do you think they will have bodies that fit their punishment. Ivor Thomas.

tomas1
09-22-04, 04:58 PM
what kind of bodies is what i was after,because they wont be glorified bodies, do you think they will have bodies that fit their punishment.

Will these bodies be subject to decay sickness etc.?

Ivor Thomas
09-22-04, 05:19 PM
No i was talking of eternal state,Tomas your question is thinking in time.they their bodies will be in a state that God see's fit to give them,have you got any idea's or thoughts on their bodies,why i ask that we may understand punishment a bit more. Ivor Thomas.

Skeuos Eleos
09-22-04, 05:24 PM
from ramm or in this thread? did you mean "and not the literal meaning" rather than "if not the literal meaning" above?I meant from this thread. I think the sense of what I was trying to say was that this idea of scriptures being "accommodated to the human mind" helps us to understand, as a minimum, the inferrance of what is being said (along the lines of what you pointed out) even if it doesn't help us much with the literal meaning in this particular case. Hope this makes 'sense'! :)

Martin

Skeuos Eleos
09-22-04, 05:28 PM
No i was talking of eternal state,Tomas your question is thinking in time.they their bodies will be in a state that God see's fit to give them,have you got any idea's or thoughts on their bodies,why i ask that we may understand punishment a bit more. Ivor Thomas.Interesting thoughts these. They clearly won't have glorified bodies yet surely their bodies cannot be the same as they have now?? I cannot think of anything in scripture off the top of my head that answers this. Anybody? :confused:

Martin

tomas1
09-23-04, 03:58 AM
No i was talking of eternal state,Tomas your question is thinking in time.

I don’t mean to get philosophical but for the reprobate to experience either physical or mental suffering requires that they be “in time” by definition

Brandan
09-23-04, 04:09 AM
This has been a fascinating discussion. I don't have much to contribute here as I must admit my studies on hell have not been that insightful and in-depth. I'm learning a lot and appreciate the dialog. Please keep it up as I think this is one of those "trademark" discussions that makes things interesting around here and differentiates this forum from most....

Brandan

disciple
09-23-04, 10:38 AM
do you think they will have bodies that fit their punishment. Ivor Thomas.certainly. but honestly, i don't know what exactly existence will be like for the reprobate. we are not explicitly told of their bodies, activities, etc. that i know of. i think the limit to what we know is that it won't be fun. but beyond that, i don't know that we can piece much together.


Will these bodies be subject to decay sickness etc.?perhaps. do we know? we could speculate, but this might be dangerous. perhaps someone knows of a text that would address the question of what the bodies of the reprobate in judgment will be like.

Eileen
09-23-04, 11:55 AM
I have always been taught that God only is eternal and in eternity we (and I assume the reprobate) will still be 'in time' and still know time.

Is this anyone's perception or is there different opinions on that also?

disciple
09-23-04, 12:21 PM
I have always been taught that God only is eternal and in eternity we (and I assume the reprobate) will still be 'in time' and still know time.

Is this anyone's perception or is there different opinions on that also?yes only God is eternal...but i believe refers to the fact that He is bound by time on neither end. in other words, not only does He have no end, He also has no beginning. we have no end, but we did have a beginning. therefore, we are not eternal in that sense. but, as i understand it, on the other side of eternity (i.e., at the end of this world, age, existence, era, life, etc.) no one will be bound by time. what this means, how this will look, how it applies, etc. is not clear to me. perhaps someone else has a better grasp on this.

Ivor Thomas
09-23-04, 12:50 PM
Yes in line with what Disciple says, this mortal must put on immortality,as was the man of dust so also are all those who are made of dust;and as is the heavenly Man so also are those who are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. [Read 1 corinthians 15; 35 to 58;]. We shall have unceaseing life we will not be subject to time anymore, theres no future or past in eternity only the now of it. Ivor Thomas.

tomas1
09-23-04, 05:20 PM
Yes in line with what Disciple says, this mortal must put on immortality,as was the man of dust so also are all those who are made of dust;and as is the heavenly Man so also are those who are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. [Read 1 corinthians 15; 35 to 58;].

I don’t think that passage describes the bodies in hell. In fact it seems to me to say that an incorruptible body is a gift that only the elect will receive and reprobate bodies are a totally different and inferior stuff.

1 cor 15:50Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can't inherit the Kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

Am I reading this right?

theres no future or past in eternity only the now of it.

How can a soul in hell experience regret with out a since of past? How can it experience a sense of hopelessness with out a view of the future?

Ivor Thomas
09-23-04, 05:38 PM
Tomas my reply was to eileens and disciples post about eternal things for the saved. Ivor Thomas.

Eileen
09-24-04, 06:50 AM
I read the passage in Cor. Ivor, and couldn't relate that at all to whether we will experience 'time' in eternity.

The following is a quote from an article I read on a website by Pastor Powell, RCUS.

"We must distinguish between God who only has immortality in Himself; and we who have it by the gift and good pleasure of God. We have everlasting life, in the sense that it does not end. We do not dwell and never will dwell in eternity in the same sense He does, for we will always be creatures: Note the following:

Is 40:28, "Eternal Lord, the creator of the ends of the earth"

God created boundaries.....the ends of the earth. You and I have boundaries because we are not God" end of quote!

I don't know that that answers the question about time either but it makes sense to me in that everlasting life is just that, life that does not end. My pastor (who finished his race last year) always thought that we would live on the new earth much the same way we do now (with glorified bodies, no sickness, no death, no tears, no sorrow) living, working etc. with Christ as the reigning King.

As disciple has said....we really don't know, do we?

tomas1
09-24-04, 08:52 AM
My pastor (who finished his race last year) always thought that we would live on the new earth much the same way we do now (with glorified bodies, no sickness, no death, no tears, no sorrow) living, working etc. with Christ as the reigning King.
He was a smart guy?
I’m not sure of the exact nature of our bodies at the resurrection but if the resurrected body of Christ is any guide I think we can say that we will enjoy the same activities we do now Jesus eat and taught for example. I hope to spend part of my time learning about the things we have talked about on this forum. ;) All Those things require time do they not?

"We must distinguish between God who only has immortality in Himself; and we who have it by the gift and good pleasure of God. We have everlasting life, in the sense that it does not end. We do not dwell and never will dwell in eternity in the same sense He does, for we will always be creatures: Note the following:

Is 40:28, "Eternal Lord, the creator of the ends of the earth"

God created boundaries.....the ends of the earth. You and I have boundaries because we are not God"

I do think this is a very important point theologically. If we were outside of time we would no longer be contingent we would simply exist. We would be immortal in the same way God is this is Plato’s error.

Bob Higby
09-24-04, 07:24 PM
On the law of time:

I would seriously differ from Ivor. Where in scripture does it ever propose that the laws of God with respect to space, time, physical existence, reaping what one sows, etc. will ever cease? It doesn't.

Time and space have a definite beginning (they are created) but no end. God is transcendent of time and space so he can never have had a 'beginning'. However--human souls are like God himself in one important aspect--souls created in his image will have no end. But they will forever exist in time and space. Otherwise there is no resurrection body and no New Earth--only a metaphysical existence which is like the notions of Greek philosophy and completely denied by scripture.

The other issues (fire, worms, torture, etc.) I will respond to soon.

thetimbo
09-25-04, 12:29 AM
Bill, before you speak concerning the Lord's creation of time and space , you may want to consider your statement regarding our immortality . . .

human souls are like God himself in one important aspect--souls created in his image will have no end. But they will forever exist in time and space . . .

To whom do you appeal? Pagan philosophers have certainly shown us that the soul is immortal. Socrates, Aristotle, and Plato? Tell me that this isn't your proof of an immortal soul.

I'm sorry to say so, but I believe that Doug and yourself have read so much, and muddied your own waters with the thoughts of famous Greek pagans such as these, that the truth, when it's presented to you, is something you're not familiar with, and therefore erroneous.

Protest as you wish, but the pagan influence upon you of these men is obvious to those who've studied these issues.

Few among us have read Plato or Aristotle. Had they, errors such as this would be more obvious.

Good luck my friend,

Tim

ugly_gaunt_cow
09-25-04, 10:39 AM
Bill, before you speak concerning the Lord's creation of time and space , you may want to consider your statement regarding our immortality . . .

human souls are like God himself in one important aspect--souls created in his image will have no end. But they will forever exist in time and space . . .

To whom do you appeal? Pagan philosophers have certainly shown us that the soul is immortal. Socrates, Aristotle, and Plato? Tell me that this isn't your proof of an immortal soul.

I'm sorry to say so, but I believe that Doug and yourself have read so much, and muddied your own waters with the thoughts of famous Greek pagans such as these, that the truth, when it's presented to you, is something you're not familiar with, and therefore erroneous.

Protest as you wish, but the pagan influence upon you of these men is obvious to those who've studied these issues.

Few among us have read Plato or Aristotle. Had they, errors such as this would be more obvious.

Good luck my friend,

Tim
Could you elaborate? I would like to have a better understanding of your reasons for refuting their posts.

GraceAmbassador
09-25-04, 02:33 PM
Could you elaborate? I would like to have a better understanding of your reasons for refuting their posts. So would I. And also, if you believe the immortality of the soul.

By the way, are you telling us that "if those phylosophers believed that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west" and I or anyone believes the same thing, we are or have been automatically influenced by them (the phylosophers)?

Please, enlighten us.

Milt

Ivor Thomas
09-25-04, 03:46 PM
On the law of time:

I would seriously differ from Ivor. Where in scripture does it ever propose that the laws of God with respect to space, time, physical existence, reaping what one sows, etc. will ever cease? It doesn't.

Time and space have a definite beginning (they are created) but no end. God is transcendent of time and space so he can never have had a 'beginning'. However--human souls are like God himself in one important aspect--souls created in his image will have no end. But they will forever exist in time and space. Otherwise there is no resurrection body and no New Earth--only a metaphysical existence which is like the notions of Greek philosophy and completely denied by scripture.

The other issues (fire, worms, torture, etc.) I will respond to soon. Dont you know we will have resurrection Bodies, like the Lord Jesus, to live in eternity with Him, are you saying Jesus is subject to time. Now we are mortal then we shall be immortal, with unceaseing life. Ivor Thomas.

tomas1
09-25-04, 03:57 PM
Timbo says:
To whom do you appeal? Pagan philosophers have certainly shown us that the soul is immortal. Socrates, Aristotle, and Plato? Tell me that this isn't your proof of an immortal soul.

This is exactly my beef with 95% of Christians today. To them its obvious souls are immortal and can’t be killed so God must have created a place to keep the rebellious ones separate from the good ones. Hell is just an after thought.
However I have discussed this with BT and Disciple before and feel confident that they agree with us that only God is immortal and he does what ever he chooses with his creatures. Correct me if I’m wrong Guys.
The question before us is what exactly does he choose.
Do you (Timbo) feel that God has the right to keep the reprobate alive forever in hell if it pleases him? A lot of people who agree with us don’t think so. This is an error just as serious as natural immortality don’t you agree? If we find that the Scripture (not philosophy) supports eternal conscious punishment (this is a debate the Church at large has yet to have) we must acknowledge that God is just and we are only men even if we don’t understand how this side of the judgment.

Peace

disciple
09-25-04, 04:26 PM
I'm sorry to say so, but I believe that Doug and yourself have read so much, and muddied your own waters with the thoughts of famous Greek pagans such as these, that the truth, when it's presented to you, is something you're not familiar with, and therefore erroneous.

Protest as you wish, but the pagan influence upon you of these men is obvious to those who've studied these issues.

Few among us have read Plato or Aristotle. Had they, errors such as this would be more obvious.

Good luck my friend,

Timi honestly have no idea what you are talking about. perhaps you could be more specific. could you please elaborate and delineate exactly what it is you're talking about? and could you perhaps provide us with your view concerning the afterlife, the soul, etc.? thanks.

Ivor Thomas
09-25-04, 05:25 PM
Tomas just to clarify, I believe God created us with a immortal soul. Why I ask is because of your last post to Timbo, you dont seem to believe in the immortality of the soul, to me this would lead to anihilist belief. Ivor Thomas.

tomas1
09-25-04, 09:36 PM
The Bible is clear:

1 tim 6:14that you keep the commandment without spot, blameless, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ; 6:15which in its own times he will show, who is the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 6:16who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and eternal power. Amen.

The traditional understanding of immortality of the soul is not that it will live forever but that it can’t die. but the Bible says God can kill our soul.
10:28Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

To think that we can’t die is to make us equal with God. Life is a gift not an entitlement. To know this does not make one an annihilationist it makes one a Bible believer.
Now I do believe that God allows the elect to put on immortality at the resurrection. This is a privilege bought by Christ’s blood.

John 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


I also believe (but not nearly so strongly) that the reprobate will be alive forever not because of some innate trait but because God In his wisdom and justice makes a conscious choice every instant to keep them that way.

wildboar
09-25-04, 10:18 PM
Immortality as defined by Scripture is to live forever in communion with God.

Immortality as defined by philosophy is to exist forever.

The term immortality has to be read within the context of a given theological work to determine which is meant by the author and if it is being used correctly or not.

We use terms such as reprobate in a way which the Bible does not use them as well. Words have different meanings in different contexts and becoming biblicists doesn't solve any problems.

Various anabaptist groups are quick to point out the use of the word immortality in pagan sources and then read that into all theology as it uses the word immortality to refer to any of the non-elect. This is foolish just as it is foolish to say that the Roman Catholic Church invented the Trinity or any other such nonsense. It avoids the issue which is the meaning behind the words. Certainly many of the church fathers were influenced by pagan philosophy and certainly there was damage done by this but Plato's teaching on immortality is a good deal different from orthodox Christianity as anyone knows who has read Plato.

The Bible teaches eternal conscious suffering for the unbeliever. This can be spoken of as a certain immortality as the Belgic Confession does so long as eternal existence is understood.
Every single creature is upheld by the constantly spoken word of God. There is certainly nothing inherently immortal about anything or anyone but God.

disciple
09-26-04, 12:01 AM
The term immortality has to be read within the context of a given theological work to determine which is meant by the author and if it is being used correctly or not.

We use terms such as reprobate in a way which the Bible does not use them as well. Words have different meanings in different contexts and becoming biblicists doesn't solve any problems.good point charles. we often quibble over the usage of words and object because they're not 'in Scripture' (actually, technically, none of the actual words we English speakers use are in Scripture...so this objection is actually pretty silly)...and this often ends up being a red herring in order to avoid the argument and issue altogether. i'm not so sure it's always intentional, but i think sometimes we need to get past the words themselves (though it is crucial to ensure terms are defined and mutual understanding is acheived) and spend more time listening and trying to understand what the other party is actually saying. anyway, enough rambling from me...


Various anabaptist groups are quick to point out the use of the word immortality in pagan sources and then read that into all theology as it uses the word immortality to refer to any of the non-elect.out of curiosity, what exactly do you mean by 'anabaptist' here? who/what exactly is this a reference to?

Ivor Thomas
09-26-04, 04:03 AM
Tomas your use of Mathew 10; 28:, where you say kill the soul, and then you try and say in same verse destroy means kill the soul, that is to speak as anihilist in doctrine.The place in corinthians, where it says mortal puts on immortality is refering to the body, it`s not refering to the soul, we already have a immortal soul created by God, as for now we are looking to the resurrection of our bodies. Surely if God gives us eternal life, we have then the word of God we cannot Die. Ivor Thomas..,

tomas1
09-26-04, 06:22 AM
Ivor Thomas
we already have a immortal soul created by GodHow

about chapter and verse on this one before we go on? ;)

Bob Higby
09-26-04, 08:55 AM
A quick response (for now).

are you saying Jesus is subject to time.

His human nature, which he retains forever joined to his Divinity, is subject to time and will be subject to God the Father in the final consummation of the kingdom (1 Cor. 15:28). Otherwise humanity is no more humanity, being exalted to godhood (transcendent of time and space).

Now we are mortal then we shall be immortal, with unceaseing life

And who is denying that? We will have life for eternity future, which is an undending succession of moments. But one moment follows another.

On the immortality of the soul:

I completely deny the Greek concept: find me one Greek philosopher after Plato that did not believe in transmigration.

I deny the innate immortality of the soul completely, so that actually puts me at odds with the Belgic confession and a host of other Protestant confessions. If God wills to create beings in his image with eternal existence, they continue to exist only due to his will and a continuous upholding of them by the Word of his power; not due to any innate immortality.

tomas1
09-26-04, 09:23 AM
WB says: Immortality as defined by Scripture is to live forever in communion with God.

Please explain 1 tim 6:16 in light of this definition

Ivor Thomas
09-26-04, 09:45 AM
Ivor Thomas
we already have a immortal soul created by GodHow

about chapter and verse on this one before we go on? ;) Well how about- Mathew 10 ;28 , -and Revelation 6;vers- 9-10:- or 2 Corinthians 5; 3:- Acts 2; 27:. I believe the soul survives the body now at death, do you know any souls that have not,and can you give me chapter and verse, if you do know of any. Ivor Thomas.

wildboar
09-26-04, 01:09 PM
out of curiosity, what exactly do you mean by 'anabaptist' here? who/what exactly is this a reference to? Modern examples would include JWs, SDAs, and others. There were various anabaptists at the time of the reformation who also did the same thing.


WB says: Immortality as defined by Scripture is to live forever in communion with God.

Please explain 1 tim 6:16 in light of this definition 1 Timothy 6:16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

I'm not sure exactly what you are getting at so I will try to cover all the bases I can see, if I miss one let me know. God is the only one who has immortality of Himself and also experiences communion within the Triune Godhead. We experience communion through Christ.

tomas1
09-26-04, 01:58 PM
Ivor Thomas
I believe the soul survives the body now at death, do you know any souls that have not,and can you give me chapter and verse, if you do know of any
I have never argued that the soul does not outlast the body. This is truly a annihilationist argument strait from the JWs. That’s not what we are discussing here. What I am saying is the soul is not the indestructible entity that Plato said it is. God is the only thing that is indestructible.

Col 1:16For by him were all things created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him. 1:17He is before all things, and in him all things are held together.( this includes souls)

Now about mat 10:28
The word translated “destroy” is the same word used to describe what Herod wanted to do to Jesus (matt 2:13). It’s used to describe what the disciples were afraid would happen to them in the storm (matt 8:25)
What the Pharisees plotted to do to Jesus (matt 12:14)
What the king did to the evil workers in the vineyard (matt 21:41)
Etc. etc. etc.

I’m not a Greek scholar but I can’t see how this proves that
" we already have a immortal soul created by God"

Wb
God is the only one who has immortality of Himself and also experiences communion within the Triune Godhead. We experience communion through Christ.

cool I just wanted to make sure we agreed

tomas1
09-26-04, 02:10 PM
Wb Sometimes it seems you lump all Anabaptists together as heretics. I don’t know if this intentional or not. How would you feel if when we were referring to an error in the RCC we would say “various paedobaptists believe such and such" ;)

Ivor Thomas
09-26-04, 03:04 PM
Tomas, I have never mentioned Plato,but i will say again God has created us with never dying souls,He doesnt change His mind. What do you think of Luke 20;verses 36;37;and 38: Ivor Thomas.

Bob Higby
09-26-04, 07:45 PM
Responses to Doug (overdue, I admit):

i think that the meanings he provided are appropriate to the figure. for example:

Judgment -> fire -> intense pain
Judgment -> gnawing worm -> pain that is steady, remorseless, and inescapable

but i would take it further to say that not only are the fire and worm not literal (they are figures of speech), but the pain is not physical (though it is literal, real, personal, etc.) as if to refer to pain to the flesh.

I have already given my interpretation--that the fire and worms refer to 'shame and everlasting contempt': the shame of the reprobate being equal to rotting corpses full of devouring worms and the contempt toward them being the fire of God's eternal, awful, and condemning presence.

i believe that the pain, suffering, torment, etc. will be experienced, in some fashion we can only understand now with accommodating language, to the individual (not by physical means as if torture of physical/corporeal flesh but spiritual means to the soul, i.e., to the entity/person/subsistence). perhaps this will take the form of mental anguish and constant emotional sorrow, anger (against God and self), self-pity, self-loathing, anxiousness, hurt, etc. as God relentlessly displays His glory and power and holiness in His enjoyment/pleasure/love of His elect and in His perfect displeasure/hatred of the reprobate.

I agree with you!

i really don't think any torture would be necessary as this would be completely appropriate pain for the reprobate to experience for eternity.

If we are talking about eternal punishment this is correct. However, the Bible does also teach that the judgment will be according to Law in addition to the Gospel. So it is reasonable to conclude that God will mete out the appropriate measure of physical pain to those reprobates who have in this life tortured other human beings (especially the saints). The demons inspiring such torture, I believe, will also be given a material ability to experience pain in the judgment--receiving their just measure. However, this is torture by 'measure' according to Law as the judgment of the whore (Rev. 18:6)--not the eternal aspect of punishment. All of Rev. 18 speaks of this temporal aspect of the final judgment--not eternal punishment.

i really think that torture (physical pain through such things as fire and worms) would be inconsistent with the character of God and He would not lower Himself to such tactics. if He did, He would be no better than the likes of Hitler and Sadaam Hussein. this is not the God that i know and worship.

Other than torture according to the balance of temporal justice that I described above, I agree with you. The 'iron rod' rule of Christ and his saints does not consist of eternally beating the reprobate with iron rods--but an eternal rule that cannot be challenged or rebelled against. In the same way, the eternal lake of fire is an experience of having to endure the everlasting shame of being in the presence of a God who has nothing but contempt for rebels.

wildboar
09-26-04, 08:09 PM
Wb Sometimes it seems you lump all Anabaptists together as heretics. I don’t know if this intentional or not. How would you feel if when we were referring to an error in the RCC we would say “various paedobaptists believe such and such"I did not say all anabaptists so I'm not lumping them all together. I have at times spoken of various Presbyterians or various reformed people or even the majority of reformed people when condemning some error so I would not be offended if it were used as long as it were relevant. There are certain errors which various branches of the Christian church are prone to.

A good portion of the fringe heretic groups happen to find themselves as offspring of the anabaptist movement and these various heresies work themselves in greater or lesser degrees into mainstream baptist teaching.

Many of the cult groups feed off of the idea that their pet doctrine was corrupted by the Roman Catholic church. It then becomes a matter of not proving Biblically that something is wrong but dogmatically declaring it is wrong because the Roman Catholic church teaches it. In my discussions that I have had in the past, the majority of Baptists I have spoken with are unable to engage in a serious Biblical discussion about the proper recipients of baptism. They just keep repeating over and over that infant baptism is a Roman Catholic doctrine and are unwilling even to listen to any kind of arguments about it. This belief that anything that the Roman Catholic church teaches must be wrong leaves them open to various heresies when the JW comes knocking on their door and tells them about how the RCC invented the Trinity. Many may be dogmatically fired up by their local pastor (read pope for those with understanding) to believe the JW but becoming accepting of doctrines such as soul sleep and other teachings.

On the other hand I have at least one very close friend and other aquaintances who are good Biblical critical thinkers who also happen to be Baptists who have thought through these matters Biblically and so are not prone to these same problems.

disciple
09-27-04, 09:28 AM
I did not say all anabaptists so I'm not lumping them all together....A good portion of the fringe heretic groups happen to find themselves as offspring of the anabaptist movement and these various heresies work themselves in greater or lesser degrees into mainstream baptist teaching.you say you're not lumping them all together and then you say that "fringe heretic groups happen to find themselves as offspring of the anabaptist movement." in what way are you relating them? are they truly related geneologically or are you just relating them conceptually? perhaps you could elaborate here.

also, what exactly is your definition/understanding of anabaptist? what is your understanding about that movement from the reformation? how much reading have you done about this group? what sort of sources have you read (anti-anabaptist polemics, histories, etc.)? what do you understand pertaining to what groups that received this name? do you see it as a monolithic group? do you lump them all together into one head as the magesterial reformers and roman catholics did in the 16th and 17th centuries?

ugly_gaunt_cow
09-27-04, 10:46 AM
Some verses to think about in relation to The Doctrine of Hell

(Ps 11:1-7) "In the LORD put I my trust: how say ye to my soul, Flee as a bird to your mountain? For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart. If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do? The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men. The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

(Ps 112:09-10) "...He hath dispersed, he hath given to the poor; his righteousness endureth for ever; his horn shall be exalted with honour. The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish."


(Ps 68:1-3) "Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice."

(Isa 33:14) "The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure."

(Ps 37:35-39) "I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found. Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace. But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off. But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble."

tomas1
09-27-04, 01:35 PM
The more I think about it the more I like WBs definition of immortality.
Immortality as defined by Scripture is to live forever in communion with God.
If you include his clarification
God is the only one who has immortality of Himself and also experiences communion within the Triune Godhead. We experience communion through Christ.
I think you approach what the Bible means when it says eternal Life .

If we agree that this is the working definition of immortality it is clear that the reprobate souls do not possess it. It is conditioned on the grace of God. It’s a gift not an entitlement.

If we all agree on this (except maybe for Igor Thomas) we should now work on a Biblical definition of eternal punishment in Matt 25:26. Any takers

wildboar
09-27-04, 02:30 PM
you say you're not lumping them all together and then you say that "fringe heretic groups happen to find themselves as offspring of the anabaptist movement." in what way are you relating them? are they truly related geneologically or are you just relating them conceptually? perhaps you could elaborate here.

also, what exactly is your definition/understanding of anabaptist? what is your understanding about that movement from the reformation? how much reading have you done about this group? what sort of sources have you read (anti-anabaptist polemics, histories, etc.)? what do you understand pertaining to what groups that received this name? do you see it as a monolithic group? do you lump them all together into one head as the magesterial reformers and roman catholics did in the 16th and 17th centuries?
Sometimes it seems to me that saying anything bad about the anabaptists on this forum leads to the same reaction as saying anything about the Jews on a dispensational forum. The Anabaptists were diverse in their teachings. Some among them denied the deity of Christ and other historic Christian teachings seemingly just because they were historic Christian teachings. Some modern anabaptist cult groups are related geneologically, others conceptually but I don't see much profit in sifting out which were which and from which specific teacher.

Just as an example I'll use the Waldensians. Although Samuel Waldo was a member of the Roman Catholic church for a time and then separated himself from it, later Waldensians claimed that their group was started by the Apostles. We find Landmark baptists following this same model and trying to prove Baptists successionism.

I've read various anabaptist authors but see no profit in giving a bibliography of the ones that I have read.

Whereas the Scripture speaks of tradition as good when it does not violate the teachings of Scripture, the anabaptists from my readings seemed to have viewed tradition as bad and in many cases were willing to accept any teaching which went contrary to tradition. I see the same tendency among some on this forum.

Now just for the sake of equal time.;) Various presbyterians and reformed folks have idolized various theologians such as Kuyper and Berkhof to the extent that they place them on a level higher than Scripture.

wildboar
09-27-04, 02:41 PM
James Orr's article on immortality in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia is excellent and can be read here: http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T4560The article on everlasting punishment is also good: http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T7158

Ivor Thomas
09-27-04, 03:16 PM
The more I think about it the more I like WBs definition of immortality.
Immortality as defined by Scripture is to live forever in communion with God.
If you include his clarification
God is the only one who has immortality of Himself and also experiences communion within the Triune Godhead. We experience communion through Christ.
I think you approach what the Bible means when it says eternal Life .

If we agree that this is the working definition of immortality it is clear that the reprobate souls do not possess it. It is conditioned on the grace of God. It’s a gift not an entitlement.

If we all agree on this (except maybe for Igor Thomas) we should now work on a Biblical definition of eternal punishment in Matt 25:26. Any takers Tomas the name is Ivor, and the verse is 46, I agree with WB on his definition,. You are the one who thinks we could still possibly die.On agree Dont exclude me, I can do that myself. The eternal punishment needs no debate amongst christians, it is a ongoing punishment- continueing- eternal,not a one of punshiment of final anihilation.Tomas could i ask you,what do you think?has Abrahams soul ever died from its creation,and now its in heaven will it ever die?, do you think God might decide to kill it, I certainly dont think Godis like that. This is why i say we now have a immortal soul,. Mathew 10; 28:.Thanks - Ivor Thomas.

disciple
09-27-04, 03:45 PM
Sometimes it seems to me that saying anything bad about the anabaptists on this forum leads to the same reaction as saying anything about the Jews on a dispensational forum. The Anabaptists were diverse in their teachings. Some among them denied the deity of Christ and other historic Christian teachings seemingly just because they were historic Christian teachings. Some modern anabaptist cult groups are related geneologically, others conceptually but I don't see much profit in sifting out which were which and from which specific teacher.i would hope you would not take my questions negatively. i wish to understand you and find out where you are coming from...not to criticize you or be defensive toward anabaptists. so i really believe your observation is not quite an accurate portrayal of my heart/motive (e.g., i'm not defensive of anabaptists nor would i call myself an anabaptist...though if i were alive during the time of the reformation i probably would have been part of the radical reformation; in other words, i would not have been a magesterial reformer).

to give you the background of my questions so that you might understand me, i've read several books on anabaptists and have learned that the magesterial reformers and roman catholics called anyone and everyone who objected to state (territorial) churches "anabaptist". and it was a very pejorative term and was not used very precisely, since the groups would not themselves identify with one another, sometimes only being united by that one tenet (objection to state church).

as a result, i've seen many modern reformed folk form their views of anabaptists based on the writings and polemics of the magesterial reformers (e.g., calvin and luther). this problem is exacerbated by the fact that many of the anabaptists were executed, their writings were destroyed, and many of the writings that still survive remain untranslated. therefore, they have often not been allowed to speak for themselves. and we all know that those who win are the ones who write history.

the modern reformed folk i've spoken to think that anabaptist is narrowly defined by the likes of the militant, chiliastic, extremist groups of the radical reformation such as the munsterites and servetus. but what was labelled anabaptist was not a monolithic group as many reformed folk assume (at least the ones that i've spoken with). and so i've seen many an error made in using this label in the modern day and they a priori reject anything which bears that label.

what i also learned is that many of the early evangelical anabaptists were very orthodox (e.g., grebel, manz, sattler, blaurock, hubmaier, etc.) and even calvinistic (soteriologically). and so i find that there are much confused and misdirected polemics against this group, simply because of ignorance.

i hope that helps you understand where i'm coming from.


I've read various anabaptist authors but see no profit in giving a bibliography of the ones that I have read.i don't need a bibliography (nor did i ask for one; i feel like this comment was sort of a sarcastic jab)...i simply wanted to know what you were basing your comments on and what perspective you were coming from. if you've only read anti-anabaptist literature, then it would make sense to view all of them in a monolithic fashion (as you seemed to be doing) and in a negative light (which you also seemed to be doing). when i read only luther's and calvin's and the belgic confession's criticisms of what they labelled anabaptist, i will have nothing positive to say about them and their contribution to church history. the polemics during this time were quite nasty.


Whereas the Scripture speaks of tradition as good when it does not violate the teachings of Scripture, the anabaptists from my readings seemed to have viewed tradition as bad and in many cases were willing to accept any teaching which went contrary to tradition. I see the same tendency among some on this forum.do you believe skepticism toward tradition and a desire to only hold to what one finds in Scripture as a bad thing? i would be curious to know exactly what sort of things that people here cling to just because of being anti-tradition and also wonder why you are here then. i don't mean this statement negatively, nor do i wish you to go away, but i honestly wonder what your motives are for investing your time at this forum if you view us as anabaptists (or at least bordering on it and having those tendencies).

tomas1
09-27-04, 04:52 PM
Ivor Thomas Please don’t get a bug in your bonnet I did not mean any offence. I just did not want to include you against your will. As far as the typos are concerned this happens to me every time I don’t proof read my posts (and some times even when I do). My mind works much better than my fingers I promise. Some time I should tell you the gentle Gentile story. :D
As far as the rest of your post goes once again let me assure you I am not advocating a doctrine of annihilation of the wicked. I am only trying to base my beliefs entirely on the Bible. I don’t say we have immortal souls because the bible doesn’t say that.
As a boy I heard many sermons in which the preacher told stories of poor God who would love send everyone to heaven but is helpless because of some people refuse to walk down the isle and pray the sinners prayer. As the story goes God created man to be immortal and since he can’t exist next to sin he must put stubborn folks in prison to keep them from spoiling heaven blah blah blah.
I hope to form a more biblical view from this discussion so forgive me if I am not satisfied with less than chapter and verse



Tomas could i ask you,what do you think?has Abrahams soul ever died from its creation,and now its in heaven will it ever die?, do you think God might decide to kill it, I certainly dont think Godis like that.
I believe that Abraham is alive today and will never die because God keeps his promises not because of something innate in his soul do you see the difference? By the way it’s God is not Godis :D

Ivor Thomas
09-27-04, 05:38 PM
Ivor Thomas Please don’t get a bug in your bonnet I did not mean any offence. I just did not want to include you against your will. As far as the typos are concerned this happens to me every time I don’t proof read my posts (and some times even when I do). My mind works much better than my fingers I promise. Some time I should tell you the gentle Gentile story. :D
As far as the rest of your post goes once again let me assure you I am not advocating a doctrine of annihilation of the wicked. I am only trying to base my beliefs entirely on the Bible. I don’t say we have immortal souls because the bible doesn’t say that.
As a boy I heard many sermons in which the preacher told stories of poor God who would love send everyone to heaven but is helpless because of some people refuse to walk down the isle and pray the sinners prayer. As the story goes God created man to be immortal and since he can’t exist next to sin he must put stubborn folks in prison to keep them from spoiling heaven blah blah blah.
I hope to form a more biblical view from this discussion so forgive me if I am not satisfied with less than chapter and verse



Tomas could i ask you,what do you think?has Abrahams soul ever died from its creation,and now its in heaven will it ever die?, do you think God might decide to kill it, I certainly dont think Godis like that.
I believe that Abraham is alive today and will never die because God keeps his promises not because of something innate in his soul do you see the difference? By the way it’s God is not Godis :D Where have I used the word innate ,I have not,you again say the immortality of the soul is not taught in the bible, after showing you scripture proof such as Mathew 10;28. Rev;6; 9-10; etc`, also remember i am refering to Gods Elect, who are predetermined to life, who have immortal souls given to them at their creation. Tomas you suggest by what you say, that there is a possibility their souls could die, this is why i say immortality of the soul, because the bible teaches they cannot die, because it is the decree and will of God, see also Luke 20; 36:. Ivor Thomas

wildboar
09-27-04, 06:00 PM
as a result, i've seen many modern reformed folk form their views of anabaptists based on the writings and polemics of the magesterial reformers (e.g., calvin and luther). this problem is exacerbated by the fact that many of the anabaptists were executed, their writings were destroyed, and many of the writings that still survive remain untranslated. therefore, they have often not been allowed to speak for themselves. and we all know that those who win are the ones who write history.
Well we have to work with what we have then don't we? It would seem to me that the most extreme writings would be most likely to be destroyed. Fortress feels comfortable publishing a critical edition of "Q" but I sure wouldn't.

I never stated that there were no orthodox anabaptists I have continually used words which indicate "some" when speaking of heretical anabaptist groups. I really don't see how my statements are all that controversial.

Adam Pastor denied that Christ existed before the incarnation. Menno Simons denied that Christ received his human body from Mary (something also suggested by others here and which is held to by certain modern baptist groups). The pacifistic stance of many of the non-revolutionary anabaptists is simply not biblical and often leads to paranoid dilusions about the state.


do you believe skepticism toward tradition and a desire to only hold to what one finds in Scripture as a bad thing? i would be curious to know exactly what sort of things that people here cling to just because of being anti-tradition and also wonder why you are here then. i don't mean this statement negatively, nor do i wish you to go away, but i honestly wonder what your motives are for investing your time at this forum if you view us as anabaptists (or at least bordering on it and having those tendencies). Once again it seems you are taking my "some" statements as if they said all. If everyone was a hardcore anabaptist here I would not participate. But they are not. Tradition must be rejected when it is in conflict with Scripture but to reject tradition because it is tradition is to reject Scripture.

2 Thessalonians 3:6 But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.

1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

Bob Higby
09-27-04, 07:57 PM
The term Anabaptist, though used incessantly by the Reformers, is a most inaccurate term claimed by no-one in past ecclesiastical history. Maybe some today claim it proudly--not realizing that all of their fore-runners accused with the label had nothing to do with it.

Anabaptist (re-baptizer) is a misnomer; it refers to a non-existent group of people. There was no such movement or denomination. It is a name that the Reformers utilized against ALL of their non-Papal opponents who opposed the doctrine of the state-church. No matter how heretical or orthodox any of their other views were. That's a fact.

1. Sabbatarians (Luther wrote a treatise against them).
2. Soul-sleep and annihilationism proponents (Calvin wrote a treatise against them).
3. Waldensians (who actually made peace with the Reformers in the long run).
4. Mennonites.
5. Swiss Nonconformists murdered by Zwingli's state-church.
6. German Nonconformists murdered by Luther's state-church.
7. Anti-Trinitarians like Servetus.
8. Baptists.

etc., etc.; all nonconformist groups differing endlessly and infinitely in doctrine--some being outright non-Christian heretics, others with many heterodox doctrines but disagreeing as much with one another as with the state-church leaders. Some were orthodox on a large number of historic Christian beliefs.

I say, if we can't accurately label opponents and state their views in such a way that the 'other side' admits to the precision of our evaluation, genuine debate is impossible.

And all know how much I admire Luther, Calvin, and a host of other Protestants. But their lump-sum treatment of and opposition to their enemies was untenable. They had a closet full of their own skeletons to clean-up and account for!

disciple
09-28-04, 09:18 AM
Well we have to work with what we have then don't we? It would seem to me that the most extreme writings would be most likely to be destroyed.this is true enough. but my point was that we don't have much to work with so making definitive and broadbrushing statements can be very dangerous. it is particularly important to define and understand when using labels since we often all have differring understandings and backgrounds.


I never stated that there were no orthodox anabaptists I have continually used words which indicate "some" when speaking of heretical anabaptist groups. I really don't see how my statements are all that controversial.it's not necessarily controversial just possibly simplistic/truncated (at best) or misinformed (at worst). i personally think that identifying JWs, SDAs, and others (what is this?) as anabaptists is a huge stretch (depending, of course, on how you are using the term).


Once again it seems you are taking my "some" statements as if they said all. If everyone was a hardcore anabaptist here I would not participate. But they are not. Tradition must be rejected when it is in conflict with Scripture but to reject tradition because it is tradition is to reject Scripture.i don't think anyone here is advocating that. as i intimated before, my feeling is that many here are skeptical of tradition (particularly and specifically those which we cannot find in Scripture) and wish to only practice and believe what the Scriptures teach. in my opinion, there is nothing more to it than this. and this includes not taking early subapostolic witness as normative for Scripture. perhaps you could be more specific as to examples of people here objecting to something just because it is tradition. because i personally just don't see it.

tomas1
09-29-04, 04:59 PM
Returning to the main focus of this thread I have one overriding question I hope to have answered.
1.Since we all agree that
A.Continued existence of souls is not automatic but must be conferred by God
And
B. The chief purpose of all things is the glory of God.

How does the eternal existence of the “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction” result in the God’s glory? This is the essence of the hell question if we can understand this I believe the rest will fall into place

Ivor Thomas
09-29-04, 05:17 PM
Returning to the main focus of this thread I have one overriding question I hope to have answered.
1.Since we all agree that
A.Continued existence of souls is not automatic but must be conferred by God
And
B. The chief purpose of all things is the glory of God.

How does the eternal existence of the “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction” result in the God’s glory? This is the essence of the hell question if we can understand this I believe the rest will fall into place But the continued existence of souls is a fact ,God says it in His word. Ivor Thomas.

Skeuos Eleos
09-29-04, 05:49 PM
Ivor, do you deny that God sustains the elect in eternity? It seems like you are saying that they have life in themselves apart from God.

Martin

Skeuos Eleos
09-29-04, 06:04 PM
Returning to the main focus of this thread I have one overriding question I hope to have answered.
1.Since we all agree that
A.Continued existence of souls is not automatic but must be conferred by God
And
B. The chief purpose of all things is the glory of God.

How does the eternal existence of the “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction” result in the God’s glory? This is the essence of the hell question if we can understand this I believe the rest will fall into place
I think Rom 9 answers this: God's purposes are to demonstrate His wrath and power and patience to His elect, that they might know more of the riches of His glory. (Rom. 9:22-23).

To put it another way: God loves His elect and desired to show them His glory that they might worship and enjoy Him forever. In order for His elect to understand His glory they have to see what runs opposite to it. For example, how would you see a white circle on a piece of white paper? You would need black paper for the white circle to really stand out.

I've copied below something I posted in the "Infra vs. Supra" thread because it seems relevant to this:

Any true Christian will have some moments of experiencing at least a glimpse of this joy that surpasses understanding. Ecstatic though such moments may have been, our joy will be greater still when we “enter into the joy of the Lord”. Yet, as finite beings, that joy cannot be expected to be as great as that of the Almighty Sovereign God, who is the maker of all things including any finite creature’s capacity for joy.

Since God is the only one who is truly self-sufficient he has no need of any other but is fully satisfied in Himself and in the fullness of His perfections reflected back to Him in His Son. This satisfaction in Himself is so great that God desired to share it and so purposed to create man, in His own image, to share in His joy. However, in order for created man to understand and delight in the Glory of God for all eternity, God decreed that it was necessary for man to first experience and understand all that runs counter to God’s glorious attributes in order to better appreciate the wonders of His perfections. Thus God decreed the fall and its consequential bondage to sin, the glorious redemption through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, the lamb slain before the foundation of the world, and the subsequent struggling against sin and the need to briefly suffer and persevere before entering into the everlasting joy of the Lord as the best means for men to appreciate, marvel at and enjoy the glory of God.

A few simple questions best illustrate this idea:
- How can man understand light if he has not seen darkness?
- How can man understand God’s goodness and love and compassion if he knows nothing of evil and hatred?
- How can man truly rejoice in the mercy and grace of God in Christ Jesus unless He has seen his own depravity and inability?
- How can man understand the absolute power of God unless He has been humbled to see that it is God who is at work in him to will and to do?
- How can man understand the humility of God demonstrated in Christ Jesus humbling Himself even unto death unless he knows about pride?
- How can man understand the justice and wrath of God unless He sees it manifested?

Does not our own experience tell us that to understand something we make comparisons or reference to other things? Thus the Christian has great cause for hope and joy since he knows that he is a pilgrim and stranger on this earth because God has prepared a better home for him and that his “momentary, light affliction is producing … an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison”, that all trials and tribulations were deemed necessary to work for his good for God is too loving and too wise to err in any way. And what is man’s greatest good other than to worship, marvel at and delight in the glory of God for all eternity! Thus any good we do and all that we suffer or endure in this world, all that we stumble or fail at AND all that we witness of the apparent temporal prosperity of the wicked before they go to the place prepared beforehand for them is all decreed by the all-wise God that we may better know the joy He has bid us to enter to sing His praises for evermore and so in all things God will be glorified!


Martin

Bob Higby
09-29-04, 10:39 PM
Tomas asks:


Returning to the main focus of this thread I have one overriding question I hope to have answered.
1.Since we all agree that
A.Continued existence of souls is not automatic but must be conferred by God
And
B. The chief purpose of all things is the glory of God.

How does the eternal existence of the “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction” result in the God’s glory? This is the essence of the hell question if we can understand this I believe the rest will fall into place

The traditional doctrine focuses on the material torture of the wicked and the pity of Christ and the saints. The biblical doctrine focuses on the triumph of the elect in the Grace of Christ and their reign over the wicked who are destined to refuse such Grace. Maybe if our perspective was more in line with the Bible--we could begin to SEE the real purpose of the reign of Christ and the elect over the reprobate in the age to come. It is purposed to glorify God. The mystery of God's wonderful grace in salvation is in contrast to the opposite (in the Lord's purposes of eternal election).

Ivor Thomas
09-30-04, 03:59 AM
Ivor, do you deny that God sustains the elect in eternity? It seems like you are saying that they have life in themselves apart from God.

Martin Martin I think it is pretty clear what i said, it is A FACT that He DOES keep us always, how you have read me different is beyond my understanding, Tomas is the one who has this possible leaning. Martin souls will never be anihilated, they are created by God, and are given immortality, wich is unceaseing, only God has immortal life in Himself, with out begining . If you would read back through this thread, you would find that Tomas mentioned Plato and the concept of innate, something that i had never thought or said , Martin do you believe in the immortality of the soul. Ivor Thomas

Skeuos Eleos
09-30-04, 04:42 PM
Martin I think it is pretty clear what i said, it is A FACT that He DOES keep us always, how you have read me different is beyond my understanding, Tomas is the one who has this possible leaning. Martin souls will never be anihilated, they are created by God, and are given immortality, wich is unceaseing, only God has immortal life in Himself, with out begining . If you would read back through this thread, you would find that Tomas mentioned Plato and the concept of innate, something that i had never thought or said , Martin do you believe in the immortality of the soul. Ivor ThomasYes I do and thanks for the clarification. I guess I don't need to go in to how I misunderstood what you were saying since we now appear to be in agreement on this.

Martin

tomas1
10-01-04, 07:05 PM
Great post. Martin I think the profound incite of your answer
should be allowed to soak in for a while. It means that the
ultimate purpose of hell is not punishment or quarantine
but illustration.
When we try to interpret passages like the fire and worms. Instead of
wondering what effect the punishment will have on the reprobate we
should think about what affect it will have on us as we see it. Wow this changes everything!

Ivor Thomas
Are you looking for something to argue about? Is their something specific I have said that you disagree with?

thetimbo
10-01-04, 11:24 PM
Bill, I'd like to know if you have at all edited your final thesis to exclude any reference to Plato, Socrates, or Aritstotle.

And if so, why?

Tim

Bob Higby
10-27-04, 08:59 PM
By all means, Tim, no! My head was too much into Plotinus to even think of Socrates, Aristotle, or Plato!

But to throw you a carrot, I will admit that no contributor so far has given any credible and exegetical defense of the doctrine of eternal punishment.

TulipCalvinist
01-05-05, 10:34 PM
Quite simply, I believe that the torments of Hell are as incomprehensible to us as the glories of Heaven. We, with our finite minds, have no way to fully grasp the idea of eternal torment of infinite intensity.

disciple
01-06-05, 01:02 PM
Quite simply, I believe that the torments of Hell are as incomprehensible to us as the glories of Heaven. We, with our finite minds, have no way to fully grasp the idea of eternal torment of infinite intensity.yes indeed. i think there is more accomodation in the language of Scripture than we like to acknowledge. human's (unbelievers and believers alike) are still trying to acquire knowledge so as to become like God (cf. Gen 3.5). it's almost as if we feel we are weak if we admit that we just aren't sure of something.

Bob Higby
01-06-05, 10:13 PM
After further study of the issues of Greek vs. Hebrew philosophy over the last month, I can no longer defend the position I have taken in the past on this subject. I had read many allegations of dependence on Greek philosophy--but had no idea before now on how extreme this dependence was; both in Rabbinic Judaism and Patristic Christianity.

We've all been lied to--a lot!

Don't ask me now what my revised position is--because I do not have one that is systematic at this juncture.

ray kikkert
01-06-05, 10:19 PM
After further study of the issues of Greek vs. Hebrew philosophy over the last month, I can no longer defend the position I have taken in the past on this subject. I had read many allegations of dependence on Greek philosophy--but had no idea before now on how extreme this dependence was; both in Rabbinic Judaism and Patristic Christianity.

We've all been lied to--a lot!

response: What do you mean by this Bill?


Don't ask me now what my revised position is--because I do not have one that is systematic at this juncture.
response: What particular definitions regarding Hell should we be concerned about?

greetings and salutations, el rana

tomas1
01-07-05, 03:33 PM
Disciple:
yes indeed. i think there is more accomodation in the language of Scripture than we like to acknowledge. human's (unbelievers and believers) are still trying to acquire knowledge so as to become like God (cf. Gen 3.5). it's almost as if we feel we are weak if we admit that we just aren't sure of something.

Amen !!!

BT
Don't ask me now what my revised position is--because I do not have one that is systematic at this juncture.

Can you give us a hint? As you know I came to my present position after dialoging with the folks here especially you so what you have to say about this is very important to me
Peace

Bob Higby
01-07-05, 08:23 PM
Ray and Tomas:

All I can say at this point is that I can no longer be dogmatic (with absolute confidence) about the proposition that God has invested every angelic and human spirit created in his image with eternal existence (consciousness without end). This is contrary to my former stance. Right now I have nothing else to add beyond this.

Ivor Thomas
01-08-05, 06:44 AM
Bob could I just ask you if you now do not agree with what A.A. Hoekema says in the four major cults about the everlasting ness of punishment, and it not just being a one time, and then anihilation,why I ask is because of your last post, and it must be something very interesting that as lead you to such!. Ivor Thomas....

Eileen
01-08-05, 11:35 AM
Does anyone find Bob's new signature line interesting and perhaps something to be considered along this discussion?

Or maybe, I'm just whacko, as usual:rolleyes:

Bob Higby
01-11-05, 05:03 PM
Eileen:

Thanks for noticing; I will be updating the signature line again soon to make it a little more clear. It is just a small snippet from the scrolls which are the chief focus of my research at present.

IT:

The problem with Hoekema is the same as that of other works along the same line:

1. The assumption is made that an expression used in Rabbinic Judaism or Patristic Christian writings must mean the same thing as the same expression in the New Testament (eternal [aionic] 'whatever'). I was convinced of this overall approach myself for a long time, until further research proved it to be grossly in error.

2. The Jewish writings used to demonstrate this point are actually from the apocryphya and pseudopygrypha, which are mostly heretical.

3. The long-line of 'witnesses' (Judith, Maccabean authors, Philo, Justin, Tertullian, Augustine, etc.) were all heavy into Platonic philosophy on the nature of man. Their thinking was not according to ancient Hebrew belief.

4. The scroll authors--which I believe are far more orthodox in their OT interpretations--identify a very different use of these expressions. Eternal punishment (in all its variations: eternal fire, eternal darkness, eternal chains, etc.) refers to the temporal punishment of the wicked in Sheol--which is perpetual and long-lasting but not endless in the absolute sense. The same thing as 'eternal chains' in Jude imprisoning the wicked angels. Final punishment after the last judgment is not in view at all.

So I'm not becoming a firm annihilationist, just a very strong doubter of the absolute confidence expressed by traditionalists in their viewpoint. I don't have a new systematic on this right now. :cool:

tomas1
01-11-05, 05:12 PM
BT
4. The scroll authors--which I believe are far more orthodox in their OT interpretations--identify a very different use of these expressions. Eternal punishment (in all its variations: eternal fire, eternal darkness, eternal chains, etc.) refers to the temporal punishment of the wicked in Sheol--which is perpetual and long-lasting but not endless in the absolute sense. The same thing as 'eternal chains' in Jude imprisoning the wicked angels. Final punishment after the last judgment is not in view at all.

Can you give some examples of this? I am in agreement as far as the orthodoxy of the scrolls at least from my limited reading of them!
Peace

wildboar
01-11-05, 09:22 PM
Although I enjoyed the time I spent with the Scrolls and the soteriology of the writers seemed to be more accurate than others in their day their eschatology was off which is the very reason they were out in the desert to begin with.

Bob Higby
01-12-05, 02:02 AM
I will work on providing examples, which are abundant but can't be found on the internet--so it all has to be copied from books. Hopefully I'm not in danger of violating copyright laws with some of this stuff!

Let me make this clear: in no way do I believe that the Hebrew view on punishment in Sheol is limited to the Greek notion of Hades but excluded from the Greek references to Gehenna. The distinction between 'intermediate' and 'final' state is not apparent in these writings--neither do I believe it is apparent in the New Testament (in spite of the claims). No one can provide clear and irrefutable evidence from the NT of the doctrine that the wicked are raised in immortal bodies subject to unimaginable pain--along the lines that are found in Greek mythological works.

I will work on providing quotes--but do not have time for extensive debate: as I say, my thoughts are not systematized on this so I am not ready to engage in controversy at this point.

tomas1
01-12-05, 03:26 PM
W.B.
their eschatology was off which is the very reason they were out in the desert to begin with.

In light of the conditions in Palestine during the first century B.C. it seems to me that going to the wilderness to wait for the Messiah would be the most orthodox thing for a student of OT eschatology to do. :p
B.T.
I will work on providing quotes--but do not have time for extensive debate: as I say, my thoughts are not systematized on this so I am not ready to engage in controversy at this point.
Please understand I too am not willing to debate. I have recently come to realize that I have spent way to much time debating with fellow Christians over minor points of doctrine and not enough time quietly learning from those with a slightly different take on things. With Gods help I will try to be better in the future.

thetimbo
01-13-05, 06:12 AM
Hello Bill.

I'm pleased to see that you've shaken off this particular lie.

Do however, beware of the rabbis. I'd hate to see you replace one set of

lies with another.

Tim

thetimbo
01-13-05, 06:20 AM
Hey Wildboar, the folks out in the desert with the scrolls weren't just nomads;
the group's nucleus were the members of the sanhedrin dismissed by Herod the
Great at some point after 40 BC.

Tim

ray kikkert
01-13-05, 10:42 AM
Hey Wildboar, the folks out in the desert with the scrolls weren't just nomads;
the group's nucleus were the members of the sanhedrin dismissed by Herod the
Great at some point after 40 BC.

Tim
Tim , if it was sometime after 40BC would that still be before Christ was born or we do not really know?

greetings and salutations, el rana
3Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.Malachi 2

Bob Higby
01-13-05, 09:50 PM
I have no interest in debating who the 'folks in the desert' were! They were the same range of Nonconformists that have existed for thousands of years: ranging from the most genuine of orthodox believers to absolute and incomprehensible kooks! The Dead Sea Scrolls consist of an ancient library and reveal a whole range of beliefs and diversity of peoples.

Bob Higby
01-30-05, 10:12 AM
In case anyone doubts the influence of Hellenistic theology on the so-called 'Christian fathers', read the different articles here. It will blow your mind. :cool:

I have completely abandoned the notion that God invests every soul with unending existence at the union of sperm and egg.

http://www.torreys.org/bible/philo&beg.html#6.

ugly_gaunt_cow
01-30-05, 10:16 AM
In case anyone doubts the influence of Hellenistic theology on the so-called 'Christian fathers', read the different articles here. It will blow your mind. :cool:

I have completely abandoned the notion that God invests every soul with unending existence at the union of sperm and egg.

http://www.torreys.org/bible/philo&beg.html#6.
Finally!!

Man, do you have any idea how hard it is for somone like me to find this type of information online!?

Thanks Brother.

wildboar
01-30-05, 01:11 PM
I have no doubt that these early church fathers were influenced by Hellenistic philosophy. However it does little in proving the doctrine of eternal suffering wrong. The Scriptures must be used to do that. All this would show is the origin of the teaching after it was shown that the interpretation of Scriptures was incorrect. Otherwise we end up like the JWs saying that the Trinity is wrong because the RCC teaches it.

Bob Higby
01-30-05, 01:36 PM
WB challenges:

I have no doubt that these early church fathers were influenced by Hellenistic philosophy. However it does little in proving the doctrine of eternal suffering wrong. The Scriptures must be used to do that. All this would show is the origin of the teaching after it was shown that the interpretation of Scriptures was incorrect. Otherwise we end up like the JWs saying that the Trinity is wrong because the RCC teaches it.

The Trinity is in an entirely different plane. I know that many Protestants want to make the doctrine of eternal suffering as much an article of faith 'unto salvation' as the Trinity. However, there is no basis for this in scripture.

By the way, I have not stated any definite conviction of a change in my position on 'eternal suffering' yet; I have stated that I do not believe the numerical majority of souls in hell are spontaneously aborted zygotes, which medical science tells us consist of half of all those conceived!

So far, that is all that I have concluded definitely. :cool:

ray kikkert
02-01-05, 03:55 PM
By the way, I have not stated any definite conviction of a change in my position on 'eternal suffering' yet; I have stated that I do not believe the numerical majority of souls in hell are spontaneously aborted zygotes, which medical science tells us consist of half of all those conceived!

So far, that is all that I have concluded definitely. :cool:
You would concurr though that we do not prove eternal damnation from manmade science but by God's Word. That being said Bill when looking through Scripture what would be apparent to you from God's Word that eternal damnation does not exist? What is striking to me is that in defining the decree of reprobation the term "eternal damnation" is widely used in the reformed confession.
Consider the following on the word "Sheol" and "Hades":

It is also true, however, as the AV translators saw clearly, that it cannot and may not always be translated "grave." There are a number of passages where Sheol clearly refers to Hell as the place of eternal punishment.

In Job 11:8, Isaiah 14:15, and Amos 9:2, the contrast is between Heaven and Hell, not Heaven and the grave. In Proverbs 23:13, 14, the death referred to cannot be physical death (chastisement does not deliver from it, but from eternal death) and therefore Sheol must refer to Hell, the place of eternal death, and not the grave.

Likewise, Job 26:6, Proverbs 15:11 and 27:20 speak of "hell and destruction." The word destruction is the Hebrew word, Abaddon, which in Revelation is the name for a messenger of Hell (Rev. 9:11). In light of that NT passage it is far better to identify both Abaddon and Sheol with Hell in the passages where they are used together.

We are convinced the in the NT Hades ALWAYS refers eternal punishment. In every undisputed passage that is the case. If so, then not only is the translation of Acts 2:27, 31 correct, but those passages reflect back on Psalm 16:10, from which they quote, and suggest that they too are referring to Hell, not the grave, when they speak of Sheol.

But why in the OT is the same Hebrew word used to refer both to the grave and to Hell? The answer is that the grave, apart from the redeeming work of Christ, is the entrance, the courtyard of Hell. All who go to the grave also go to Hell, unless they are rescued by the blood and sacrifice of Christ, who destroys that victory of the grave (I Cor. 15:55), and opens a new way out of it for those whom the Father gave Him.

The grave, therefore, even in the OT, as the place to which all go, is not a neutral place, but a place of suffering from which one must be redeemed (Ps. 116:3-8). And we are redeemed! Because of Christ's obedience and suffering the grave and death could not hold Him (Acts 2:24), nor can it hold those who are in Him by faith. Through Him who loved them believers are more than conquerors even over the grave (Rom. 8:37). Rev.Ronald Hanko

greetings and salutations, el rana

Bob Higby
02-02-05, 11:52 PM
Ray: That being said Bill when looking through Scripture what would be apparent to you from God's Word that eternal damnation does not exist?

Nothing. The lot of the wicked is either 'everlasting shame and contempt' or 'shame and everlasting contempt' (Dan. 12:2); depending on how the Hebrew is translated. All we are talking about is the MEANING of eternal damnation or eternal KOLASIS (punishment)--and whether the history of dogma in the line of Tertullian and Augustine (who were themselves heavily influenced by Plato and Philo) has been influenced in the interpretation of those terms.

Sheol for the wicked involves an afterlife of suffering for at least many generations; I totally support that. How, when, where, those are the issues. Plus the nature of the resurrection of the ungodly and whether Tertullian and Augustine added to scripture on this point. :cool:

Bob Higby
02-02-05, 11:54 PM
For those who are up to the challenge of answering the HARD questions, I will pose this one:

If God has not determined in his eternal purposes to invest EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BIOLOGICAL UNION of sperm and egg with eternal existence, is the doctrine of absolute unending suffering in jeapordy? In other words, is the doctrine of absolute unending suffering dependent upon the doctrine of the fact that every union of sperm and egg is invested with absolutely unending future existence? Please be explicit and logical in answering or it means nothing to me.

As I have stated before, my thoughts on this issue have definitely become un-systematized. I don't have a new answer that is logical and consistent yet. But I DEFINITELY know now that I was deceived by our many Christian scholars devoted to Plato, the Pharisaic Rabbis, Philo, Tertullian, and Augustine. Institutional Christian dogma is HEAVILY dependent on Greek philosophy on many doctrines, especially including this one.

Unless there are biblical answers that are as sure and certain as the Deity and saving work of Jesus Christ, they will mean nothing to me. :cool:

Mickey
02-04-05, 12:10 PM
Bob:
If God has not determined in his eternal purposes to invest EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BIOLOGICAL UNION of sperm and egg with eternal existence, is the doctrine of absolute unending suffering in jeapordy?

Logically no, because we do not have to link the two. The problem here is that the connection is assumed. Does that make sense? I think I see where you are going with this. God can determine to give eternal existense to some and not others, the trick here is to determine if scripture affirms that.

Bob:
In other words, is the doctrine of absolute unending suffering dependent upon the doctrine of the fact that every union of sperm and egg is invested with absolutely unending future existence?

Once again no. Absolute unending suffering can exist as God's purpose for some, it does not require a 'universal' application.

Mike

Skeuos Eleos
02-04-05, 07:17 PM
As I have stated before, my thoughts on this issue have definitely become un-systematized. I don't have a new answer that is logical and consistent yet. But I DEFINITELY know now that I was deceived by our many Christian scholars devoted to Plato, the Pharisaic Rabbis, Philo, Tertullian, and Augustine. Institutional Christian dogma is HEAVILY dependent on Greek philosophy on many doctrines, especially including this one. What about Aristotle? Could it be that he also is responsible for deceiving people?

Wasn't it him that came up with the idea of right to left reasoning? :)

Martin

Bob Higby
02-06-05, 02:15 PM
Martin: What about Aristotle? Could it be that he also is responsible for deceiving people? Wasn't it him that came up with the idea of right to left reasoning?

Boy, what a loaded question! I agree with you in this sense: Aristotle with his natural theology was trying to re-introduce the logical element in philosophy that he felt Plato had avoided in his 'pure world of ideas':

For Plato the form every science should take is dichotomous--illustrated in the Sophist by the angler. To this conception of the form of science Aristotle has two objections. First, the process of dichotomy does not of itself furnish the information necessary to locate a given species. Second, dichotomy does not reveal the cause of a thing's existence, whereas the syllogism does. Ancient Philosophy, Gordon H. Clark (The Trinity Foundation, 1997), p. 187 .

So Aristotle objected to Plato's paradoxical thought. He had logic well-enough but not revelation! So from that stand-point we can say that he was left-to-right. To reason from the end to beginning requires God's revelation, otherwise it is impossible.

I definitely believe that the paradoxical thought of Plato was the prominent belief of the Hellenistic world, not the logical and naturalistic thought of Aristotle. Even though both are certainly wrong in terms of the gospel. :cool:

Bob Higby
02-06-05, 02:29 PM
Mike:
________________________________________
Bob: (previously)
If God has not determined in his eternal purposes to invest EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BIOLOGICAL UNION of sperm and egg with eternal existence, is the doctrine of absolute unending suffering in jeapordy?

Logically no, because we do not have to link the two. The problem here is that the connection is assumed. Does that make sense? I think I see where you are going with this. God can determine to give eternal existense to some and not others, the trick here is to determine if scripture affirms that.
________________________________________
Bob: (presently)
I agree with you totally. That is where I am on this right now; dispensing with a-priori assumptions and trying to re-discover the teaching of revelation from the ground up. Basically, what I have learned so far is that the Bible is not as clear on these points as often assumed. That does not bother me; it is obvious that God has made the essentials clear and left other things to some mystery. On those we must trust the judge of all the earth to do right.


Mike:
_______________________________________
Bob: (previously)
In other words, is the doctrine of absolute unending suffering dependent upon the doctrine of the fact that every union of sperm and egg is invested with absolutely unending future existence?

Once again no. Absolute unending suffering can exist as God's purpose for some, it does not require a 'universal' application.
_______________________________________

Bob: (presently)

I totally agree again! For me (obviously not for many others), the burden of proof for the opposite view lies with those who hold to it. None of the books I have in my library (defending the traditional view) have demonstrated their position beyond doubt--if accepted principles of hermeneutics are applied. :cool:

Mickey
02-07-05, 01:35 PM
Bob:
For me (obviously not for many others), the burden of proof for the opposite view lies with those who hold to it. None of the books I have in my library (defending the traditional view) have demonstrated their position beyond doubt--if accepted principles of hermeneutics are applied.

What I put in the bold from your statement is something I am starting to learn more and more. There is so much dogma on so many issues that is assumed or accepted to be orthodox because it is held by a majority or has been held for a time.

I took an apologetics course through Stand to Reason (www.str.org (http://www.str.org)) about a year ago. Something I learned from that course was how to hold people accountable for the assertions they make. Far to often those that don't share the current 'mainsteam' view are in the hot seat (us in many cases), when seldom do these mainstreamers have an answer for anything they hold to.

Anyway back to the subject at hand...

ray kikkert
02-07-05, 02:04 PM
For those who are up to the challenge of answering the HARD questions, I will pose this one:

If God has not determined in his eternal purposes to invest EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BIOLOGICAL UNION of sperm and egg with eternal existence, is the doctrine of absolute unending suffering in jeapordy? In other words, is the doctrine of absolute unending suffering dependent upon the doctrine of the fact that every union of sperm and egg is invested with absolutely unending future existence? Please be explicit and logical in answering or it means nothing to me.



Bill I have a question. Do you think that those whom God has predestined to eternal damnation cease to exist?


greetings and salutations, el rana

Bob Higby
02-08-05, 10:22 PM
Ray: Bill I have a question. Do you think that those whom God has predestined to eternal damnation cease to exist?

I am neither a traditionalist nor an annihilationist; I cannot propose ultimate cessation of existence for all damned souls as the clear teaching of scripture. But if I were to engage in book reviews, I can find many hermeneutical violations in both positions. However, the Lord has me working on a different task at the moment. :cool:

ray kikkert
02-09-05, 09:58 AM
Ray: Bill I have a question. Do you think that those whom God has predestined to eternal damnation cease to exist?

I am neither a traditionalist nor an annihilationist; I cannot propose ultimate cessation of existence for all damned souls as the clear teaching of scripture. But if I were to engage in book reviews, I can find many hermeneutical violations in both positions. However, the Lord has me working on a different task at the moment. :cool:
No problem Bill. I had been reading through God's Word in Jude, the rallying cry for the saints to contend for the faith where "everlasting chains under darkness" and "eternal fire" are specifically described to the lot of the reprobate. What do you think?

greetings and salutations, el rana

Bob Higby
02-09-05, 01:17 PM
The scriptures in Jude are clear examples of where the Bible violates the hermeneutic of traditionalists. The traditionalist hermeneutic states that wherever ANY adjectival use of aionos appears in the New Testament--in conjunction with a metaphor of conscious punishment, it ALWAYS means ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT END. This example in Jude is a use where it means PERPETUAL and ONGOING but not UNENDING; the eternal chains bind the wicked angels and men until the last judgment. :cool:

Bob Higby
02-28-05, 01:10 AM
Below I am going to present three translations of a passage from 1QS in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Don't ask me now why I believe the passage is significant; I'm only asking for help in interpreting the meaning of it right now. I do not profess to have all the answers. Also, if I detect that anyone responding has a RELIGIOUS or CONFESSIONAL bias, the response will mean nothing to me. I'm not interested in dogma regarding this issue, only proper translation and interpretation of what the ancient author meant. I'm not even discussing whether the teaching of the passage is right or wrong at this point. I do not have the original Hebrew but am trusting that the 3 variations will probably evidence the meaning when considered together. NOTE: This is a passage that both traditionalist (unending torment) and conditionalist (eventual annihilation) proponents of the doctrine of hell equally use to bolster their position. It is only one of many passages in the scrolls on the doctrine of final punishment.

Translation #1: And the visitation of all who walk in this spirit (the spirit of evil) shall be a multitude of plagues by the hand of all the destroying angels, everlating damnation by the avenging wrath of the fury of God, eternal torment and endless disgrace together with shameful extinction in the fire of the dark regions. The times of all their generations shall be spent in sorrowful mourning and in bitter misery and in calamities of darkness until they are destroyed without remnant or survivor.

Translation #2: And as for the Visitation of all who walk in this (Spirit), it consists of an abundance of blows administered by all the Angels of destruction in the everlasting Pit by the furious wrath of the God of vengeance, of unending dread and shame without end, and of the disgrace of destruction by the fire of the regions of darkness. And all their time from age to age are in most sorrowful chagrin and bitterest misfortune, in calamities of darkness till they are destroyed with none of them surviving or escaping.

Translation #3: The judgment of all who walk in such ways will be multiple afflictions at the hand of all the angels of perdition, everlasting damnation in the wrath of God's furious vengeance, never-ending terror and reproach for all eternity, with a shameful extinction in the fire of Hell's outer darkness. For all their eras, generation by generation, they will know doleful sorrow, bitter evil, and dark happenstance, until their utter destruction with neither remnant nor rescue.

Thanks to anyone who will even consider an attempt to sort out this difficulty.

wildboar
02-28-05, 09:30 AM
I recognize translation #1 as being that of the translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls I own by Geza Vermes. Who did the others?

They all seem to teach a period of torment after death followed by annhilation.

Eileen
02-28-05, 01:05 PM
On a very quick read through without study.....

One thing that stood out (to me) in all three is the references to:

times of all their generations

all their time from age to age

their eras, generation by generation

It almost seems as if they are saying that the suffering, shame, the bitter, the evil will be for a generation, or witnessed by each generation before destruction. I agree that each one speaks of annihilation. Just a first thought!

GraceAmbassador
02-28-05, 01:10 PM
All seem to teach that a period of indescribable sufferings precdeds their final annihalation.

It also appears to imply that this annihilation will be "at once" and "all at the same time" does it not?

If that is true, will there people who, because their died "later" rather than sooner, receive less punishment in terms of time?

I also would like to sort out some of these difficulties.

Milt

Bob Higby
02-28-05, 10:17 PM
WB:

I recognize translation #1 as being that of the translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls I own by Geza Vermes. Who did the others?

#1 Geza Vermes, #2 Ed Fudge, #3 Michael Wise

They all seem to teach a period of torment after death followed by annhilation.

If this is true, then the 'unending torment' school is not happy--for it views the utter destruction not as annihilation but as eternal destructive torment as it also views similar NT expressions (such as 2 Thess. 1:9).

The period of torment is 'generation upon generation', age to age, and SHAME WITHOUT END (Dan. 12:2) so I'm still on the fence. This is how I would answer your observation, Eileen. The passage speaks of total destruction but also of shame without end (not with end) so there are arguments on both sides.

Milt, I don't know if it is an 'all at one time' annihilation that is referred to or not--this does not seem to make sense in the light of 'shame' and 'terror' without end.

When I have time I will post other passages on this subject to see if any further light can be shed upon it. As most of you can see, my mind is not made up (and hasn't been for a long time). I do feel the passage is significant for a lot of reasons (I do not believe that all passages in the scrolls are significant, however--for reasons that I will explain in the paper I'm working on). :cool:

GraceAmbassador
02-28-05, 10:34 PM
Milt, I don't know if it is an 'all at one time' annihilation that is referred to or not--this does not seem to make sense in the light of 'shame' and 'terror' without end.

Yup! I had the impression that I read "after all generations". That would imply that at the last generation, THEN all would be annihilated, which would be very "confortable" to the last generation. My mistake! Thanks!

Milt

thetimbo
03-01-05, 06:18 AM
I recognize the DS verses.

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from
the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

2 Thess 1:9

The word destruction is the greek word 'olethros', and is more
properly translated "ruin".

I'd be interested to see whether or not the DSS verse uses the
aramaic 'piyd' (peed) which literally means ruin rather than
destruction.

This would certainly solve your dilemma.

Tim

Bob Higby
03-01-05, 08:26 AM
Thanks, Tim and to all who have contributed.

The word destruction is the greek word 'olethros', and is more
properly translated "ruin".

So say many scholars committed to the commonly accepted position, however, others have pointed out that olethros has a wide variety of meanings (including extinction) and that we cannot be sure that its meaning is 'eternal conscious ruination' in 2 Thess. 1:9 . This is the sole Pauline passage on the subject (there is no other); I think many other passages have to be taken into consideration.

I'd be interested to see whether or not the DSS verse uses the
aramaic 'piyd' (peed) which literally means ruin rather than
destruction. This would certainly solve your dilemma.

Yes, I don't have a copy of the Aramaic/Hebrew on any of these--otherwise I would struggle through it with my helps and refer what I couldn't figure out to a personal Ph.D. friend of mine who has in-depth knowledge of the languages. However, I doubt that this is the case--based on how a variety of translators have come down with 'extinction' as the translation. But scholars have been wrong and demonstrated their religious bias in translating so, so often!

I don't know if the dilemma would be solved--because I'm seeing more and more that these teachings are intended a broad picture of God's final judgments on evil and do not give us chronological, pictorial, and quantitative detail on how it will all come down. It is somewhat apocalyptic in nature. :cool:

Bob Higby
03-01-05, 08:43 AM
The only question being considered here is whether the final state of conscious misery entered by the reprobate is absolutely without end or has an end (to the conscious aspect) after many ages. The typical annihilationist view of extinction after a relatively brief period of torment is not in view at all.

ray kikkert
03-01-05, 09:54 AM
The only question being considered here is whether the final state of conscious misery entered by the reprobate is absolutely without end or has an end (to the conscious aspect) after many ages. The typical annihilationist view of extinction after a relatively brief period of torment is not in view at all.

Bill I went through Scripture to find how in fact "hell", "damnation" and the "eternal" aspect is defined to it.

Matthew 10:28 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=28&version=9&context=verse)
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 23:33 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=23&verse=33&version=9&context=verse)
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mark 9:43 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=9&verse=43&version=9&context=verse)
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Revelation 20:13 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=20&verse=13&version=9&context=verse)
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=20&verse=14&version=9&context=verse)
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Mark 3:29 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=3&verse=29&version=9&context=verse)
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

John 5:28-30

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,



29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Can it not be said that the reprobate is destroyed with an eternal damnation in hell or the lake of fire?

ugly_gaunt_cow
03-01-05, 10:03 AM
Bill I went through Scripture to find how in fact "hell", "damnation" and the "eternal" aspect is defined to it.

Matthew 10:28 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=28&version=9&context=verse)
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 23:33 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=23&verse=33&version=9&context=verse)
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mark 9:43 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=9&verse=43&version=9&context=verse)
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Revelation 20:13 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=20&verse=13&version=9&context=verse)
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=20&verse=14&version=9&context=verse)
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Mark 3:29 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=3&verse=29&version=9&context=verse)
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

John 5:28-30

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,



29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Can it not be said that the reprobate is destroyed with an eternal damnation in hell or the lake of fire?

Mt 25:41, (KJV), Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

2 Pet 2:4, (KJV), For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Rev 20:14, (KJV), And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Bob Higby
03-01-05, 12:45 PM
Thanks for the scriptures. They do not settle the issue, however, of how the expression 'eternal damnation', 'eternal judgment', etc. is to be interpreted. The same expressions are in the inter-testamental writings and the issue is whether the NT endorses the Rabbinic teaching of the Pharisees and Philo (as most traditionalists assert), the Non-conformist teaching in the scrolls (whatever that is--from the Teacher who was the archenemy of the Pharisees), or something else.

ugly_gaunt_cow
03-02-05, 11:49 AM
Thanks for the scriptures. They do not settle the issue, however, of how the expression 'eternal damnation', 'eternal judgment', etc. is to be interpreted. The same expressions are in the inter-testamental writings and the issue is whether the NT endorses the Rabbinic teaching of the Pharisees and Philo (as most traditionalists assert), the Non-conformist teaching in the scrolls (whatever that is--from the Teacher who was the archenemy of the Pharisees), or something else.

I'm sort of reconciling the verses I posted in the following manner:

1) The lake of fire (Wrath of God) was created for the Devil and his angels (for their innate sinful rebelion against God);

"into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"



2) Hell is a temporary holding place until the Day of Judgement, where the Devil, his angels and unredeemed sinners are kept;

"God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; "



3) The contents of both Hell and Death are destroyed forever by the Lake of Fire, never to exist again (second death);

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."



Obvioulsy I cannot claim this to be an accurate interpretation from simply posting isolated verses. I have to dig further for comparisons of other biblical precepts to show whether or not my understanding of this specific topic is valid.

Brandan
03-02-05, 12:56 PM
I thought lake of fire and hell were the same thing.

ugly_gaunt_cow
03-02-05, 02:58 PM
I thought lake of fire and hell were the same thing.

So did I.

But I don't understand how hell can be thrown into itself as a means of destruction.

Ivor Thomas
03-02-05, 04:14 PM
Just a sugestion i think you will find in Revelation 20;verse's 13/14, should read HADES, and not Hell, Hades is thought to mean the place of departed spirits, of the lost, or the world of the dead. maybe someone would confirm the Greek used here,. Ivor Thomas..

ugly_gaunt_cow
03-02-05, 05:54 PM
Just a sugestion i think you will find in Revelation 20;verse's 13/14, should read HADES, and not Hell, Hades is thought to mean the place of departed spirits, of the lost, or the world of the dead. maybe someone would confirm the Greek used here,. Ivor Thomas..

I thought hades was the evil underworld of greek mythology?

"the place of departed spirits, of the lost, or the world of the dead" sounds like a little like Hel don't it?

:confused:

Ivor Thomas
03-02-05, 06:41 PM
I thought hades was the evil underworld of greek mythology?

"the place of departed spirits, of the lost, or the world of the dead" sounds like a little like Hel don't it?

:confused:No you will find Hades is quite legitimate biblical word,it's like O.T. usage of Sheol, you will find a lot of translation's have Hades and not Hell in this passage. Thank's Ivor Thomas...

ugly_gaunt_cow
03-02-05, 07:34 PM
No you will find Hades is quite legitimate biblical word,it's like O.T. usage of Sheol, you will find a lot of translation's have Hades and not Hell in this passage. Thank's Ivor Thomas...

Yes. Agreed.

But I thought the word HADES originated from greek mythology? Isn't that how it found it's way into scripture? A terminology used as a description?

Bob Higby
03-02-05, 10:36 PM
I believe that Tartarus is more common in mythology.

Hades refers to the realm or place of the dead (whatever that is perceived to be); in the NT it is a place that the righteous in Christ have already been delivered out of (in the present) and where the non-elect await the final resurrection of damnation.

ugly_gaunt_cow
03-03-05, 12:41 AM
I believe that Tartarus is more common in mythology.

Hades refers to the realm or place of the dead (whatever that is perceived to be); in the NT it is a place that the righteous in Christ have already been delivered out of (in the present) and where the non-elect await the final resurrection of damnation.

Where are the dead nonelect now?

harald
03-03-05, 04:25 AM
The Greek word "Hades" occurs in the NT. It is translated "hell" by many versions, including the KJV. The word "hades" means "unseen". So, in brief it is "the unseen place". The English word "Hell" I have learnt derives from an old English word "helan" or something close sounding. This old English word had the meaning of "unseen". So basically "hell" is a literal translation of "Hades"/"unseen". I do not see "hell" as a wrong rendering of "hades", as long as is kept in mind that "hell" means the same as "hades" - "unseen". In Revelation it then says that ultimately both Hades/Hell and death will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. Which fiery lake is "the second death". I do not believe in the concept of thinking of "death" as cessation of existence. In my mind death is primarily a separation and absence of life. As for those humans that ultimately find themselves in the fiery lake their death consists of eternal separation from God as well as absence of the life of God. They exist but are spiritually speaking dead.


Harald

Bob Higby
03-03-05, 09:32 PM
In Revelation it then says that ultimately both Hades/Hell and death will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. Which fiery lake is "the second death". I do not believe in the concept of thinking of "death" as cessation of existence. In my mind death is primarily a separation and absence of life. As for those humans that ultimately find themselves in the fiery lake their death consists of eternal separation from God as well as absence of the life of God. They exist but are spiritually speaking dead.

This point of view is simple to understand and reason through. But what is the hermeneutical method that allows me to interpret the Bible like this? It is true that hades--the temporal state of death--will ultimately be swallowed up in and give way to the resurrection of damnation. But where is the 'separation from God' or 'spiritually dead but existing' concept taught as the 'second death' in Revelation or any of the rest of the Bible? I don't see it. :cool:

Bob Higby
03-03-05, 09:37 PM
Scott: Where are the dead nonelect now?

In that 'hidden' place or state of temporal judgment awaiting the resurrection of damnation, whatever God has decided that this place or state should consist of. I personally do not think it is important for us to define it clearly, if it is hidden, it is by definition something that God has not revealed the details of to us. :cool:

ugly_gaunt_cow
03-04-05, 11:37 AM
Scott: Where are the dead nonelect now?

In that 'hidden' place or state of temporal judgment awaiting the resurrection of damnation, whatever God has decided that this place or state should consist of. I personally do not think it is important for us to define it clearly, if it is hidden, it is by definition something that God has not revealed the details of to us. :cool:

Deut 29:29, (KJV), The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

That works for me. No rebuttle here. :D

Eileen
04-17-05, 06:40 PM
Bob,

Translation #3: The judgment of all who walk in such ways will be multiple afflictions at the hand of all the angels of perdition, everlasting damnation in the wrath of God's furious vengeance, never-ending terror and reproach for all eternity, with a shameful extinction in the fire of Hell's outer darkness. For all their eras, generation by generation, they will know doleful sorrow, bitter evil, and dark happenstance, until their utter destruction with neither remnant nor rescue.

I found it very interesting to read the full discourse before this paragraph. what an account of the creation of mankind, the two spirits of humankind....truth and falsehood.

The judgment above is for those who walk in the spirit of falsehood and I looked up the word perdition.......There will be multiple afflictions at the hand of all the angels of perdition. Perdition means hell.....or the utter loss of a soul so are what follows this sentence the actual afflictions they will suffer at the hand of the angels............in hell?

Do you think these angels are residents of hell? If perdition can mean utter loss of a soul and we know that the Scripture tells us to fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell would the destruction of or utter loss of the soul be the actual end of those afflicted this way?

Just some thoughts as I was reading.

Eileen~

Bob Higby
04-18-05, 08:24 PM
The angels of perdition are not the devil's angels; in this context they are the destroying angels of God. In the Hebrew perspective of these scrolls, the devil (Belial) is not in charge of final punishment, God and his messengers (angels) are. The devil does not rule in the habitation of the damned, he is its chief and lowest subject. What is in view in this quotation is the final manifestation of God's wrath, often referred to as 'hell'--but I have given reasons before why I believe that 'hell' is a most inadequate and sinister English term to refer to the final lot of reprobates. Scripture uses many different words for final condemnation and 'hell' has become a slang term in the English. So it is not a good one to describe these realities, especially today. :cool:

InChristAlways
04-22-05, 02:08 AM
In Revelation it then says that ultimately both Hades/Hell and death will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. Which fiery lake is "the second death". I do not believe in the concept of thinking of "death" as cessation of existence. In my mind death is primarily a separation and absence of life. As for those humans that ultimately find themselves in the fiery lake their death consists of eternal separation from God as well as absence of the life of God. They exist but are spiritually speaking dead.

This point of view is simple to understand and reason through. But what is the hermeneutical method that allows me to interpret the Bible like this? It is true that hades--the temporal state of death--will ultimately be swallowed up in and give way to the resurrection of damnation. But where is the 'separation from God' or 'spiritually dead but existing' concept taught as the 'second death' in Revelation or any of the rest of the Bible? I don't see it. :cool:Hi. I have a question on Reve 20.

It shows the "dead standing" in front of the throne and not shown as being "raised up". Now of course if a literal heaven and earth is passing away, they will be in "outer space" I think. These are judge by works and the "books". What are the "books" the ones standing are being judged by? I thought it might have to do with the laws of moses?.
acts 13: 39 "and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

On the other hand, those in the "sea" and "hades" are delivered up and judged by their "works". Is this 2 seperate kinds of resurrections and how does this fit into Daniel 12? I realize this is mostly spiritual and symbolic, but what are the differences between the ones already standing and the other "delivered up"?Thanks and God bless.

reve 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.

http://newjerusalemministriesboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=82

Bob Higby
04-23-05, 10:41 AM
The books refer to the record of history; i.e., the record of the lives of those who laughed at the gospel OR have hearts that will laugh at the gospel when they are confronted with it for the first time at the judgment.

The scroll sealed with seven seals from earlier in Revelation is the same concept; God's predetermination of historical events ends up being the exact same thing as recorded history.

The 'book of life' is also opened, which is mentioned elsewhere in Revelation as containing the names of those who are predestined to salvation. So those cast into the lake of fire are those whose names are missing from this book; the record of their lives in the 'other' books of recorded history testifies to their certain hatred of Christ and the gospel.

Verse 13 makes it clear that the 'dead' are in a state of resurrection when facing the last judgment. :cool:

InChristAlways
04-23-05, 11:26 AM
reve 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


The books refer to the record of history; i.e., the record of the lives of those who laughed at the gospel OR have hearts that will laugh at the gospel when they are confronted with it for the first time at the judgment.

The scroll sealed with seven seals from earlier in Revelation is the same concept; God's predetermination of historical events ends up being the exact same thing as recorded history.

The 'book of life' is also opened, which is mentioned elsewhere in Revelation as containing the names of those who are predestined to salvation. So those cast into the lake of fire are those whose names are missing from this book; the record of their lives in the 'other' books of recorded history testifies to their certain hatred of Christ and the gospel.

Verse 13 makes it clear that the 'dead' are in a state of resurrection when facing the last judgment. :cool:Hi BT. Actually, I was inquiring to the 2 different judements between the ones already standing at the white throne and those being delivered up after that.
I have a view on it but can you elaborate more on those 2 events?
I did a write up on the Rich Man and Lazarus and how it can be compared to revelation, the LOF and Jeremiah 17 over here it you want look at it. Thanks and God bless.

Rich man "unveiled", torment in "flames" in Luke 16
http://newjerusalemministriesboards.com/showthread.php?p=13180#post13180

Bob Higby
04-24-05, 09:17 AM
Perhaps you can elaborate on your presuppositions re: two judgments because I do not see this in the text. There is only one FINAL judgment; in the present time between the advents God's PRE-ADVENT judgment is manifested in the historical division of mankind for or against the gospel. :cool:

InChristAlways
04-24-05, 04:14 PM
reve 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Perhaps you can elaborate on your presuppositions re: two judgments because I do not see this in the text. There is only one FINAL judgment; in the present time between the advents God's PRE-ADVENT judgment is manifested in the historical division of mankind for or against the gospel. :cool:Hi BT. I will give a view on how I see it in scripture as I really enjoy studying revelation along with the rest of the sacred scriptures.

Have you ever noticed Paul never mentioned "hellfire" in his epistles? That was spoken in the gospels in "apocalyptic" language that the "jews" would have understood. Notice Isaiah 28 and Death and Hades. It shows the Precious conerstone coming then vengeance and wrath on them aftwards.
Isaiah 28:14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, Who rule this people who [are] in Jerusalem, 15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with Death, And with Sheol we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves." That is equivalent of today where those without the spirit of Christ are in a covenant with Death and Hades. Those that do come to Christ, death and hades is "cast into the fire". I could do a lengthy article just on that symbolic happening.

As far as those 2 judgements at the white throne, the reason I can see the first one as the 6th seal is because they are shown "standing" not raised. Compare that to this passage in Rev 6.. These I believe are the "living dead" OC jews not sealed by the spirit and why I felt the books might have to do with the Books of Law or Moses. Do you see the similarities? I am doing studies on that book using nothing but Scripture for it to understand the Bible better. It is fascinating study!!. God bless.


Reve 6:15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

reve 20:11 Then I saw [b]a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
http://newjerusalemministriesboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=82

Bob Higby
04-25-05, 12:50 AM
I might see a loose connection to the Law of Moses with the books; it would take time to elaborate on.

Have you ever noticed Paul never mentioned "hellfire" in his epistles?

I have noticed this for over 30 years; hell-fire is only in the synoptic gospels and in Revelation. This fact has to be taken into account when men are tempted to go too far in making certain views on 'hell' (whether on Hades, Gehenna, or Tarturus) a form of unity. Paul is absolutely clear against universalism though! :cool:

InChristAlways
04-25-05, 12:03 PM
Isaiah 28:14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, Who rule this people who [are] in Jerusalem, 15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with Death, And with Sheol we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves."

I might see a loose connection to the Law of Moses with the books; it would take time to elaborate on.

Have you ever noticed Paul never mentioned "hellfire" in his epistles?

I have noticed this for over 30 years; hell-fire is only in the synoptic gospels and in Revelation. This fact has to be taken into account when men are tempted to go too far in making certain views on 'hell' (whether on Hades, Gehenna, or Tarturus) a form of unity. Paul is absolutely clear against universalism though! :cool:Hi BT. Wow. 30yrs? The Lord came into my life June of 2003 and my whole life changed in one day. I am retired now so I spend most of my time studying scriptures and compared to you and others, I am still a 'babe' in Christ LOL.
I believe Ezekiel 22 might be the "hellfire wrath" Jesus and John the Baptist spoke about to the corrupt jewish rulers of Jerusalem. They are shown "cursed" in Malachi 2, so that would mean the curses of Deut 28 would come upon them, correct? Christ became a "curse" for them, so the only way they can remove this is by coming to the Cross of Christ it appears.
Malachi 2:1 "And now, O priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If you will not hear, And if you will not take to heart, To give glory to My name," Says the LORD of hosts, "I will send a curse upon you, And I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have cursed them already, Because you do not take [it] to heart. [i]3 "Behold, I will rebuke your descendants And spread refuse on your faces, The refuse of your solemn feasts; And [one] will take you away with it. The jews had no idea the way Jesus was to come [and still don't] and it wasn't to bring a physical earthly kingdom but one where God would dwell with His Elect through the spirit of His Beloved Son, Jesus.
Thanks for the post and God bless you and yours through our Dear Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ.
ezekiel 22:17 The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 18 "Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to Me; they [are] all bronze, tin, iron, and lead, in the midst of a furnace; they have become dross from silver. 19 "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: 'Because you have all become dross, therefore behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. 20 '[As men] gather silver, bronze, iron, lead, and tin into the midst of a furnace, to blow fire on it, to melt [it;] so I will gather [you] in My anger and in My fury, and I will leave [you there] and melt you. 21 'Yes, I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of My wrath, and you shall be melted in its midst. 22 'As silver is melted in the midst of a furnace, so shall you be melted in its midst; then you shall know that I, the LORD, have poured out My fury on you.'

"Reve 6:15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Bob Higby
04-27-05, 08:24 AM
Well, I don't want to go to far with this distinction. The Bible is clear on the resurrection of damnation unto shame and everlasting contempt and this we are to preach or announce to mankind in general. If the 'Gehenna hell' metaphor is basically related to Jewish eschatology that is well and good. :cool:

InChristAlways
05-08-05, 09:55 AM
So what about the doctrine of hell?

1. Are the torments of hell without end?
2. Are the torments of hell without measure (unmitigated with any sense of God's goodness)?
3. Is there a hell at all for reprobates whom God has destined to go there?
4. What exactly is the nature of hell anyway?

What are your thoughts?Hi BT. I have actually read and studied the bible thru jewish/hebrews eyes. The Bible mainly talks about Israel/Judah and Jerusalem.
I did an article on the Rich man[jews of Judah] and Lazarus.If the jews ever understood this parable and Jeremiah 17, that may help them to believe in Jesus more, don't know. http://www.newjerusalemcommunity.com/articles/132/1/The-Rich-Man-and-Lazarus

God promised to glorify Himself thru them and to the World. Those that call themselves "jews" are actually "tormented" outside of the Cross to this day and revelation shows both a "Great City" and "people" who's smoke goes up forever.
I believe revelation is "symbolic" of the destruction of the OC Law/Temple and concerns the jews mainly. They are "cursed with a curse" in Malachi and I feel the curses of Deut 28 fell on them.
I know it may be hard to see that, but notice Isaiah 66 where the "corpses" are still laying around after the new "heaven and earth" are made. It is the same event as Ezekiel 39, the Day God Glorifies Himself through Israel and to the world. I don't know what happens after death, or what kind of "punishment" awaits, as I try to see what God and Christ accomplished for us in the Bible, but also if He fulfilled what He promised to the jews, as it is mainly about them, His "Firstborn Nation" correct? God bless.
Matt 23:36 "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 " O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under [her] wings, but you were not willing! 38 "See! Your house is left to you desolate; Ezekiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD. 17 " And as for you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD, 'Speak to every sort of bird and to every beast of the field: "Assemble yourselves and come; Gather together from all sides to My sacrificial meal Which I am sacrificing for you, A great sacrificial meal on the mountains of Israel, That you may eat flesh

Isaiah 66:22 " For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD, "So shall your descendants and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass [That] from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD. 24 "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Jeremiah 17:1 "The sin of Judah written with a pen of iron; With the point of a diamond [it is] engraved On the tablet of their heart, And on the horns of your altars, [i]2 While their children remember Their altars and their wooden images By the green trees on the high hills. 3 O My mountain in the field, I will give as plunder your wealth, all your treasures, [And] your high places of sin within all your borders. 4 And you, even yourself, Shall let go of your heritage which I gave you; And I will cause you to serve your enemies In the land which you do not know; For you have kindled a fire in My anger [which] shall burn forever."

Bob Higby
05-08-05, 07:00 PM
I know it may be hard to see that, but notice Isaiah 66 where the "corpses" are still laying around after the new "heaven and earth" are made.

This is no different than the prophecy of sacrifices offered 'to MAKE atonement' in the prophesied New Temple era of Ezek. 40-48 and Zech. 12-14. These realities are predicted in the context of both the covenants of law and promise, which means that certain details (those that ended with the law) will never be literally fulfilled in the ORIGINAL and LIMITED scope or context. The saints will not behold dead bodies in the consummatted kingdom, they will behold live bodies of reprobate and suffering souls! :cool:

InChristAlways
05-09-05, 03:22 PM
I know it may be hard to see that, but notice Isaiah 66 where the "corpses" are still laying around after the new "heaven and earth" are made.

This is no different than the prophecy of sacrifices offered 'to MAKE atonement' in the prophesied New Temple era of Ezek. 40-48 and Zech. 12-14. These realities are predicted in the context of both the covenants of law and promise, which means that certain details (those that ended with the law) will never be literally fulfilled in the ORIGINAL and LIMITED scope or context. The saints will not behold dead bodies in the consummatted kingdom, they will behold live bodies of reprobate and suffering souls! :cool:Hi BT.
I am in the process of translating/Harmonizing Daniel and it shows the "Time of the End" 5 times [same event], which I believe represents God glorifying Himself through both rebellious Israel and those firstfruit Saints in Christ in the first century [pretty gruesome "stuff"].

Ezekiel 39 appears to also resemble Isaiah 66.

Ezekiel 39:12 For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. 13 All the people of the land will bury them; and it will redound to their honor on the day that I show my glory, says the Lord God. The jews would be able to recognize this, but they fail to believe not only in Jesus but the NT and revelation. In fact, all I see in revelation is rebellous "jews/Israelittes" of Israel, and those Saints in Christ, not non Israel.
Genesis 49:1 And Jacob called his sons and said, "Gather together, that I may tell you what shall befall you in the last days: The jews were indeed thrown in the "oven" of Ezekiel 22 but they fail to see this as against them because of the "veil of Moses/blindness" that covers their eyes today.

Book of revelation is one of the most fascinating Devine Books in the Bible and in the world to me. Pretty awsome.
Thanks for the post. God bless.

Zephaniah 1:7 Be silent before the Lord God! For the day of the Lord is at hand; the Lord has prepared a sacrifice and consecrated his guests.

Ezekiel 22:17 And the word of the Lord came to me: 18 "Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to me; all of them, silver and bronze and tin and iron and lead in the furnace, have become dross. 19 Therefore thus says the Lord God: Because you have all become dross, therefore, behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. 20 As men gather silver and bronze and iron and lead and tin into a furnace, to blow the fire upon it in order to melt it; so I will gather you in my anger and in my wrath, and I will put you in and melt you.

http://newjerusalemministriesboards.com/index.php?

Don_Guyus
05-14-05, 08:34 PM
Jesus says the wages of sin is death, not an eternal life of tormant.

I take it as he says.

Bob Higby
05-14-05, 11:26 PM
Don G.:
Jesus says the wages of sin is death, not an eternal life of tormant.
I take it as he says.

Do birds die in the sense that you describe? :cool:

Don_Guyus
05-15-05, 01:07 PM
Don G.:
Jesus says the wages of sin is death, not an eternal life of tormant.
I take it as he says.

Do birds die in the sense that you describe? :cool:

Yes birds die in the same sense.

Bob Higby
05-15-05, 06:34 PM
To Don: OK. So birds have no resurrection after their death, what do you believe regarding:

1. The resurrection of damnation (is it mere metaphor or a real event)?
2. The nature of the torments of the damned.
3. The duration of the torments of the damned.

--Bob

Don_Guyus
05-15-05, 09:36 PM
To Don: OK. So birds have no resurrection after their death, what do you believe regarding:

1. The resurrection of damnation (is it mere metaphor or a real event)?
2. The nature of the torments of the damned.
3. The duration of the torments of the damned.

--Bob

Mt 5:22 describes hell as fire (which annihilate what is thrown into it).
Mt 5:29 warns about perishing by having one’s body thrown in the fire of hell.
Mt 10:28 confirms that both body and soul are killed in hell.

L-Today
05-16-05, 05:40 AM
What is: ''Where their worm dies NOT, and the fire is NOT quenched.''?

Do fire and the worm die anyway after a LONG while?

InChristAlways
05-16-05, 03:01 PM
What is: ''Where their worm dies NOT, and the fire is NOT quenched.''?

Do fire and the worm die anyway after a LONG while?Hi L-Today. Did you happen to notice the "beast/false prophet are thrown "alive" in the lake of fire which would also be around while the rest are being killed by the sword?

Who captured them and threw them in?

Also, they and the "devil" were cast in before the white throne judgement of the wicked? How do you view that? Just curious on that. Thanks.

Reve 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Bob Higby
05-16-05, 03:11 PM
I agree with ICA that Gehenna is a Jewish metaphor. If so, it still has something to do with the universal truth of the resurrection of damnation. As I stated near the opening of this thread, my conviction is that since the resurrection of damnation consists LITERALLY of everlasting shame and contempt, this is what Gehenna is picturing in the metaphor of fire and worms perpetually consuming dead bodies. The idea of whether the wicked will be literally annihilated in literal fire or endlessly tortured in literal fire--neither is what is really in view. It is rather telling us that the everlasting shame and contempt of the wicked can be metaphorically pictured as Gehenna--a garbage dump where worms and fire endlessly feed on and devour corpses. :cool:

InChristAlways
05-16-05, 04:08 PM
Hi L-Today. Did you happen to notice the "beast/false prophet are thrown "alive" in the lake of fire which would also be around while the rest are being killed by the sword?

Who captured them and threw them in?

Also, they and the "devil" were cast in before the white throne judgement of the wicked? How do you view that? Just curious on that. Thanks.


Reve 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

I agree with ICA that Gehenna is a Jewish metaphor. If so, it still has something to do with the universal truth of the resurrection of damnation. As I stated near the opening of this thread, my conviction is that since the resurrection of damnation consists LITERALLY of everlasting shame and contempt, this is what Gehenna is picturing in the metaphor of fire and worms perpetually consuming dead bodies. The idea of whether the wicked will be literally annihilated in literal fire or endlessly tortured in literal fire--neither is what is really in view. It is rather telling us that the everlasting shame and contempt of the wicked can be metaphorically pictured as Gehenna--a garbage dump where worms and fire endlessly feed on and devour corpses. :cool:Hi BT. Nice post. Nothing much I can add, except the parable of the rich man and lazarus in Luke 16 and Jeremiah 17 being comparable to the LOF.
The Bible is so rich in metaphors and symbolism, and I suppose that is why I love it so much. Blessings.

L-Today
05-16-05, 05:19 PM
Hi, InChristAlways,

Yes, I have noticed that the beast/false prophet have been thrown into the lake of fire alive, while others were killed by the sword. Do you think that those killed by the sword will escape the Gehenna? Or that the beast/false prophet and the devil will be the only ones in the lake of fire? Do you think the lake of fire is literal? Who captured them? To tell you the truth, I was not so much concerned with this one; apparently somebody mightier than they are. Do you think it is important who exactly captured them? Maybe it is.

Bob, thank you for your reply. I did not put my question properly - it actually was not meant to be about the nature of worms and fire but about their duration. The posting before mine by Don Guyus implied the utter destruction, and I wondered whether he thought of annihilation because of the verses he cited, that is why I thought of non-dying worms and unquenchable fire.

Bob Higby
05-17-05, 08:12 AM
I personally do not believe we are able to conclude a lot of strict doctrine from some of this apocalyptic scripture. The fact that certain enemies of God are pictured as being thrown alive into the lake of fire--while others are killed--this probably is nothing more than an apocalyptic contrast of relative guilt.

Thanks for your comments, Luba. I think that Don G. would admit he believes in final annihilation based on his comments. This does not bother me as much as it does some contributors, since I do not believe that one's detailed belief on the doctrine of final punishment is a form of unity. That is--as long as one confesses the resurrection of damnation and the fact that the reprobate will stand before God in judgment to receive their proper sentence. :cool:

L-Today
05-17-05, 09:35 AM
Yes, Bob, I agree. As long as one confesses the resurrection of damnation and them receiving their just punishment, because some deny it. As John Stott, a popular socialist ''christian'' here in England - he does not believe in hell at all. This is not acceptable for it is not biblical and goes straight against many sayings of our Lord Jesus Himself. If there is no hell whatsoever, from what are we saved?

InChristAlways
05-17-05, 09:36 AM
Who captured them and threw them in?

Also, they and the "devil" were cast in before the white throne judgement of the wicked? How do you view that? Just curious on that. Thanks.

Reve 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Hi, InChristAlways,

Yes, I have noticed that the beast/false prophet have been thrown into the lake of fire alive, while others were killed by the sword. Do you think that those killed by the sword will escape the Gehenna? Or that the beast/false prophet and the devil will be the only ones in the lake of fire? Do you think the lake of fire is literal? Who captured them? To tell you the truth, I was not so much concerned with this one; apparently somebody mightier than they are. Do you think it is important who exactly captured them? Maybe it is.

Bob, thank you for your reply. I did not put my question properly - it actually was not meant to be about the nature of worms and fire but about their duration. The posting before mine by Don Guyus implied the utter destruction, and I wondered whether he thought of annihilation because of the verses he cited, that is why I thought of non-dying worms and unquenchable fire.Hi L. I preach to a lot of newer christians coming to Christ, and buy them a Bible if they need one, but I mainly leave it up to the spirit of Jesus to lead them according to His will, not mine as He appears to call upon those He chooses to perform different functions for His Kingdom.
I am actually studying the OT in relation to Revelation, going through each book of the Scriptures to help me understand the Bible more, and try to increase my knowledge of our Creator. I believe revelation is the "physical" destruction of the house of Judah and their Temple and Great City in the first century.

The parable of the Rich man[Judah/Judas/Corrupt Sheperds] and Lazarus[Lost Sheep]. I study it both from a physical fulfillment and an ongoing age lasting Spiritual one. It is a fascinating Book!!. Blessings.

Isaiah 9:13 The people did not turn to him who smote them, nor seek the Lord of hosts. 14 So the Lord cut off from Israel head and tail, palm branch and reed in one day- 15 the elder and honored man is the head, and the prophet who teaches lies is the tail; 16 for those who lead this people lead them astray, and those who are led by them are swallowed up.

Bob Higby
05-18-05, 05:02 PM
Luba:Yes, Bob, I agree. As long as one confesses the resurrection of damnation and them receiving their just punishment, because some deny it. As John Stott, a popular socialist ''christian'' here in England - he does not believe in hell at all. This is not acceptable for it is not biblical and goes straight against many sayings of our Lord Jesus Himself. If there is no hell whatsoever, from what are we saved?

I did not have the latest on Stott's slide down the 'slippery slope'; I know that many were outraged when he was permitted to speak in chapel to the students at Covenant Seminary last year.

Although I prefer the expression "resurrection of damnation" instead of hell, because I believe it is more biblical, there is no question that a minimization of the scriptural teaching on the final destiny of the wicked is a great problem today. For me, this minimization is on both sides of the issue. Most traditionalists view 'hell' as a tragedy that God creates with great regret in order to honor a 'principle' of eternal justice that can't be ignored. However, the conditionalists often simply dismiss the final judgment as nothing but a quick and thorough annihilation just as fire burns paper. The historic teaching in all branches of orthodoxy is that the reprobate will endure perpetual and conscious shame age after age in the hereafter. Whether they are made immortal beyond all doubt (as stated in the Belgic Confession) is where I have to differ; this is not to say that I believe in annihilation either. He whom God wishes to speak to, either in love or in anger, cannot cease to exist (Luther). :cool:

L-Today
05-19-05, 10:23 AM
Bob, isn't ''cannot cease to exist'' = immortal?

Also, is Scripture speaking only about shame as an everlasting punishment?
No, I am not saying that reprobates will be tortured as by Spanish Inquisition, etc, but how do we know it will be only shame type of pain?

InChristAlways
05-20-05, 02:02 PM
Bob, isn't ''cannot cease to exist'' = immortal?

Also, is Scripture speaking only about shame as an everlasting punishment?
No, I am not saying that reprobates will be tortured as by Spanish Inquisition, etc, but how do we know it will be only shame type of pain?Hi L. There cannot be real total annihilation because nothing can be destroyed that was made physically.
Even if wood and paper are burned, there is still "residue" left, and the smoke of them goes up and is scattered in the winds, so it still exist in some form also.
I really don't have the answers but I look upon others as a "person", be they good or evil, and just try to glorify God by being in the image of Christ. After that, I feel it is up to God, as we are to sow the Word and let God water it.
I like what one person said a long time ago, "The blood of martyrs in Christ fertilize the earth"
Sorry if I can express myself better.

1 peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always ready to [give] a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ [b]may be ashamed. 17 For better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. [i]18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

I am still trying to understand the spiritual symbolicalness of this, but the way I view it, those who see our Light and goodness[image of Christ], become ashamed in front of us, not everyone of course, but it just appears that way to me in some ways. Can anyone elaborate on this for me? Thanks and blessings to you.


Revelation 14:10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

L-Today
05-23-05, 09:52 AM
Hi, ICA,

I meant in hell, not now on earth, when mentioning ''shame'' of the reprobates as their pain.

Morover, the unregenerate people do not know saving repentance, and therefore, their so-called shame when they are nasty to Christians, is worth nothing but adds to their future punishment.

L-Today.

L-Today
05-23-05, 09:55 AM
In case anybody concludes that I believe that repentance saves - of course, not. I wrote 'saving repentance', meaning the repentance of a regenerate child of God, which repentance is given by God.

melted
05-23-05, 11:32 AM
Mat 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


It seems clear to me that bringing eternal punishment into question also does likewise for eternal life. In view of the above quoted verse, I would be very hesitant to believe in annihilation for fear of advocating a less than eternity in glory for the saints.

Bob Higby
05-24-05, 09:42 AM
Luba:
Bob, isn't ''cannot cease to exist'' = immortal?

No, because we are talking about God's determination to resurrect the damned and judge them according to his purposes; not an inherent immortality in their resurrected bodies that CANNOT be destroyed. The righteous, on the other hand, will be resurrected in INHERENTLY immortal bodies that can never be destroyed. If we apply the language of immortality to the wicked, it softens the meaning of what immortal life is for the saved (in my estimation, anyway). The language of immortality in the Bible is used always and only to describe either 1) God or 2) Those to whom he gives eternal, unending, & uninterrupted life (elect angels & humans).

Also, is Scripture speaking only about shame as an everlasting punishment? No, I am not saying that reprobates will be tortured as by Spanish Inquisition, etc, but how do we know it will be only shame type of pain?

Dan. 12:2 is the only literal description in the Bible of what the damned will experience in their resurrection. The shame and contempt are two sides of the same coin: shame is inherent to their souls and contempt is external (how God and the saints will regard them). There is no additional description of other torments, so we simply do not know. The meaning of banasos (torment) in the NT might include shame as well as torture, however, the use of the word itself does not explicitly imply that God will add torture to shame. 'Torment' in the Greek is used for all levels and types of discomfort.

Fire as a metaphor in the NT describes two things:

1. Destruction (as in 'burning up') which is used by annihilationists to try and prove their position.
2. God's awful presence, which the reprobate will be forced to endure in the resurrection (which goes against the notion of annihilation).

I will respond to other posts as time permits. :cool:

L-Today
05-24-05, 05:18 PM
Bob, thank you.