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Thread: "Come out from among her"

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    "Come out from among her"

    2 Cor 6:17
    "Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord"

    Is 52:11
    "Depart! Depart! Go out from there, touch no unclean thing"

    Rev 18:4
    "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues"

    I have been following the 'different views' thread with the discussion centered now on the 'reconstructionist & postmil' views.

    It seems that the above views want to establish a church that is not apostate and therefore believe that the way to do that is by establishing the 'old laws' and by doing that the church will be affected in a positive way.

    The 'separatist' on the other hand uses the above quoted (in part) verses to establish their view on being separate from the world and being separate from the now apostate established church.

    Are these verses that speak 'come out from among' actually speaking of the apostate church in the end times? That would include the catholic church and most 'protestant' churches that preach works salvation. My footnotes speak of Babylon being represented too so could someone shed some light on these verses and what they actually teach?
    "To those who have no works-phobia, I will state that you are not trembling before the gospel" Robert R. Higby

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    Re: "Come out from among her"

    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen
    2 Cor 6:17
    "Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord"

    Is 52:11
    "Depart! Depart! Go out from there, touch no unclean thing"

    Rev 18:4
    "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues"
    Very good. I think these verses demonstrate the way the separation principles (e.g. dietary laws, cleanliness provisions, etc. of the OT) are observed between in the new covenant period. The general principle behind these laws is to show God's people that they are to be set apart and consecrated to God. Since God's covenant people in the old covenant age were the Jews and those few Gentiles who converted to Judiasm, we see the separation principles played out dramatically in this Jewish distinctiveness against the Gentiles. However, in the new covenant age, God's people is an international body with no distinction as to Jew or Gentile. That's why God tells Peter in his dream in Acts 10 that it is no longer considered unclean to eat meat that used to be unclean. In summary, the separation principles are observed between Jew/Gentile in the old covenant (in their prescribes shadowy form) and church/world in the new. As an example of how this would apply, a Jew could not marry a Gentile in the OT, whereas in the NT age, a Christian should not marry an unbeliever.



    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen
    I have been following the 'different views' thread with the discussion centered now on the 'reconstructionist & postmil' views.
    For my part, at least, the discussion has been limited only to the theonomic aspect of the system known as reconstructionism. I really haven't said anything at all about postmillennialism yet. Thanks for following the thread, though.



    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen
    It seems that the above views want to establish a church that is not apostate and therefore believe that the way to do that is by establishing the 'old laws' and by doing that the church will be affected in a positive way.
    I'm not sure I'm following your thinking here. I think the separation principles are only meant to show that they apply now to church/world but not in the shadowy form they did with the Jew/Gentile forms of these laws in the OT.



    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen
    The 'separatist' on the other hand uses the above quoted (in part) verses to establish their view on being separate from the world and being separate from the now apostate established church.
    I don't believe a retreatist approach to life, or "separatist" approach, as you called it here, by the members of the church of Jesus Christ is what Christ intended for the church at all. In fact, Jesus tells us just the opposite in Matt. 5:15,16 where we are told to be salt and light to a world that is decaying from sin and hopelessness; we see it in the Great Commission where we are commanded to DISCIPLE the nations and teach them ALL the Christ taught (Matt. 28:18ff); we see in Col. 1:18 that Christ is to have the preeminence in ALL things; Our duty as Christians is to present the gospel of Jesus Christ and its applications and all its ramification, and all of biblical teaching to the world in all things; So, given this, it must logically follow that the only thing that could be meant is that we are to engage in discipleship, yet abstain and not pollute ourselves by engaging in sinful activities that are destructive but which the world sees as desirable.



    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen
    Are these verses that speak 'come out from among' actually speaking of the apostate church in the end times? That would include the catholic church and most 'protestant' churches that preach works salvation.
    Unless you can show me otherwise, I don't think there's anything in any of these relevant texts to suggest this interpretation. I think it's simply a moral point being given. But, I would say that this could be applied to apostate churches, but it need not have anything to do with anything of eschatological significance. Generally speaking, if you're in a church where faithful apostolic doctrine isn't being preached, you shouldn't attend that church. This principle has been in place all along. (e.g. Deut. 13:1-3; Jer. 23:16ff; 1 Tim. 6:5, etc.)

    ...I'm gone...

    ...BK

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    Re: "Come out from among her"

    BK,

    My thoughts were that theonomy and separatism were 2 different ends of the same spectrum, both stemming from the knowledge of an apostate church and from that knowledge a desire to 'do something', but going in different directions.

    The theonomist using the law to reform the apostate church.

    The separatist personally being called out of the apostate church, (which they hold to be most churches).

    Both issues seem to be a reaction to the state of the world and the church.

    That is why I was curious as to what the scriptures on being separate teach. I have since looked at Gill's commentary and will do some more research. I have found some quotes but I don't want to confuse this thread with the 'different views' thread that is currently running on theonomy so I won't post those now. Thanks for your thoughts!
    "To those who have no works-phobia, I will state that you are not trembling before the gospel" Robert R. Higby

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    Re: "Come out from among her"

    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen
    My thoughts were that theonomy and separatism were 2 different ends of the same spectrum, both stemming from the knowledge of an apostate church and from that knowledge a desire to 'do something', but going in different directions.

    The theonomist using the law to reform the apostate church.
    Ok. Let me make it clear to anyone who might be reading this post that theonomists DO NOT (I repeat DO NOT!!!!) see the application of social laws as having any redemptive significance, as though they can replace the need for people to be converted by the grace of God through faith in Jesus. Just laws in a society can only restrain outward wicked actions of evildoers, but they can't create any inward piety, reverence, or heartfelt affection for the Lord.

    Another way of describing the theonomic approach to ethics might be to say that it's an outworking or expression, if you will, of our affection for our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, in the area of politics. If we are to love the Lord our God with ALL our heart, soul, strength, and mind, then this must include loving him and submitting to his word in ALL that we do, including the way we see politics. I hope anyone who's been following any of the discussion on this point doesn't get the impression that the theonomic principle advocates the replacement of man's most basic need, which is the inward transforming work of God's grace through the gospel of Jesus Christ, with social transformation. God forbid that we should ever exalt anything above the cross of Christ and the delightful message of God's grace. I'll say more about this in the "Different Views" thread later, but thanks for allowing me to clarify.

    ... and like a bad habit on new years day.. I'm gone

    ...BK

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    Re: "Come out from among her"

    Thanks for your clarification BK.

    An article I read by Jay Rogers said the following:

    " We are postmillennialists and believe that in the long term the majority of society will be saved or will at least outwardly conform to God's Law. Therefore, our goal is not to capture the political realm, but to work for regeneration of individuals and families at the local level and to reform the church by teaching correct doctrine especially in the area of biblical law"

    In this article he was describing a theonomist and he linked it to a postmil position also.

    Like in all beliefs there are amazing differences! I wasn't representing your personal position at all, (just wanted to clarify that ) I was just wanting to know the meaning of 'come out from among her' which seemed to be the total opposite of the above quote.

    Your personal position doesn't seem to go along with what I have read about theonomy (reconstruction) or postmil. Guess I don't know know how far reaching ideas and beliefs can be.
    "To those who have no works-phobia, I will state that you are not trembling before the gospel" Robert R. Higby

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    Re: "Come out from among her"

    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen
    Your personal position doesn't seem to go along with what I have read about theonomy (reconstruction) or postmil. Guess I don't know know how far reaching ideas and beliefs can be.
    As far as the exposition of the basis for theonomy I think my views are pretty close to those of the late Greg Bahnsen. However, the interpretation and application of the relevant laws will vary some among different people within the school of thought. Often times a certain point of view either gets misrepresented completely or gets set forth in a bad light because of unfavorable critical reviews. The sad thing is people tend to elevate the critic to a position of authority almost on par with Scripture itself and don't bother to read the material from the person presenting the view. No one should be immune from cross examination and scrutiny to determine if the things they write are orthodox and faithful to Scripture; but if someone's gonna harshly criticize a person's view and be dogmatic about it and pass this criticism on to others, then they should at least have read the source material itself, and not just a footnote or quote from a hostile critic. By the way, Eileen, I'm not in the least offended by anything you've said, so I hope I didn't give that impression. See ya.

    ...and like a roach in the kitchen...I'm gone
    ...BK

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    Re: "Come out from among her"

    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen
    2 Cor 6:17
    "Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord"

    Is 52:11
    "Depart! Depart! Go out from there, touch no unclean thing"

    Rev 18:4
    "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues"

    I have been following the 'different views' thread with the discussion centered now on the 'reconstructionist & postmil' views.

    It seems that the above views want to establish a church that is not apostate and therefore believe that the way to do that is by establishing the 'old laws' and by doing that the church will be affected in a positive way.

    The 'separatist' on the other hand uses the above quoted (in part) verses to establish their view on being separate from the world and being separate from the now apostate established church.

    Are these verses that speak 'come out from among' actually speaking of the apostate church in the end times? That would include the catholic church and most 'protestant' churches that preach works salvation. My footnotes speak of Babylon being represented too so could someone shed some light on these verses and what they actually teach?
    Hi. My view is more of a physical nature concerning the plagues and Israel being symbolically Egypt today and out of the kingdom.

    The only ones in the bible that were to supposedly recieve these plagues was Israel itself. Pharoah did indeed receive the plagues to force him to release the Hebrews from his bondage, so the hebrews became God's chosen.
    But they were also given laws and precepts to follow and the Lord implied what would happen to them if they didn't. Revelation appears to follow the curses of Deut 28 for the transgressions of God's people against him and blaspheming His name among the gentiles.
    Just a thought I would bring up concerning the "Harlot system"/OC Adam, to not only come out of her, but stay out of her through the cleansing by the Blood of our Lord Jesus the Christ on the Cross. Isn't judaism an apostate religion today and if so, is messianic judaism condemned?

    The fact that God put a curse on the Priests in Malachi shows the curses of Deut would eventually fall on them I believe. Christ became a curse to remove this curse, but unfortunately for unbelieving Israel, they are still under it until they come to the Cross as their priests would still be cursed to this day. Just a humbel view I have. God bless.

    Malachi 2:1 "And now, O priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If you will not hear, And if you will not take [it] to heart, To give glory to My name," Says the LORD of hosts, "I will send a curse upon you, And I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have cursed them already, Because you do not take [it] to heart. 3 "Behold, I will rebuke your descendants And spread refuse on your faces, The refuse of your solemn feasts; And [one] will take you away with it.

    Deut 28:15 " But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: 16 "Cursed [shall] you [be] in the city, and cursed [shall] you [be] in the country.
    "There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"

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