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Thread: Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist

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    Re: Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist

    Wow, I didn't realize that asking a simple question such as 'what are good works' would illicit such strong differing opinions.

    When you are taught that a Christian 'must' do good works it is a very natural response to ask, well, what are they?

    How wonderful it would have been the very first time, years ago, that I asked, had someone answered my question by simpling stating that good works are 'the continuing work of the Spirit within you". How sweet and simple the answer truly is. I often think most are afraid of a very straightforward and simple answer.

    Thankfully, it is God who works in me to will and to do what He has already ordained for me. Thankfully, the Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God and I recognize the continuing work of the Spirt within.

    Psalm 37:23 "The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord and he delighteth in his way".

    Growing in Grace

    Eileen~
    "To those who have no works-phobia, I will state that you are not trembling before the gospel" Robert R. Higby

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    Re: Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist

    GA:

    As far as Gods closeness to me in salvation, I agree with everythign you said, and never stated anythign contrary to that. But Scripture also attests to the fact that God will remover his Spirit from us. He will chastize thos he loves. He has and will "Burn our barely fields" to get our attention. This closeness I speak of is not physical, or any condition on salvation, this closeness has to do with our obedience to do what Christ commands us to do. I believe Scripture points to the fact that all are sinners, but not all manifest that sinfullness alike, and all the Elect are saints, but not all manifest this adoption alike. Our inability does nto negate our responsibility. You stae it is irrelevant how we walk in the new life we have been given. I find it tremendously relevant to Love God and listen and do what He tells us to do. And the more our fleshly desires become moritifed, we will nto even realize the task.. We we only see the eyes of Christ andgive Him all the Glory.

    Eileen;

    Has anyone answered your question yet? hahahahaha
    WHat answers does scripture give when people have asked "What must I, we, do Lord?

    Grace and Peace


    Lion

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    Re: Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist

    Eileen, the answer is simple:

    I'll break it down for you.


    **** Hyper-Calvinist View ****
    Salvation is entirely by FREE GRACE. Works are not a part of the equation.
    Sanctification is an aspect of Salvation.
    Since works have no part in Salvation, they have no part in Sanctification.

    Assurance is based on Christ alone through faith.
    All Christians grow in Grace and Knowledge of Christ after conversion.



    **** Classical Calvinist View ****
    Salvation is entirely by FREE GRACE. Works are not a part of the equation.
    Sanctification is an aspect of Salvation.
    Good works are part of sanctification... Logic breaks down at this point.... Confusion enters the scene.

    Assurance is based on Christ alone through faith.
    All Christians grow in Grace and Knowledge of Christ after conversion.



    **** Neo-Calvinist View ****
    Salvation is by "Grace Alone" but also conditioned upon the person's "acceptance" of the Gospel.
    Sanctification is an aspect of Salvation.
    Good works are a part of sanctification. "Final Salvation" is dependent upon the obedience which comes from faith by Grace (Piper).

    Assurance is based upon these good works as evidence of faith.
    All Christians grow in Grace and Knowledge of Christ after conversion...



    I consider the classical calvinist view to be wrong, but not necessarily heterodox. I consider the neo-calvinist view to be damnable. Classical calvinists seem to attack hyper-calvinists more than neo-calvinists - at least from observation - and I haven't the foggiest idea why that is so.
    This is my signature.

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    Re: Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist

    Mr. Gill:

    Maybe I am missing Eileens question. Is she asking for a list of what is considered "good works"? or is she asking what role works play in salvation, sancitification, Justification? Mr. Gill.. Your last post offering the 3 views is an explination of Salvation, is that what she is looking for? I think I had too much triptophan in the bird over the last few days. Hence i am sleepy and my concentration may be faulty.

    Lion

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    Re: Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist

    Quote Originally Posted by DG
    Salvation is entirely by FREE GRACE. Works are not a part of the equation.
    Sanctification is an aspect of Salvation.
    Good works are part of sanctification... Logic breaks down at this point.... Confusion enters the scene.
    You are inaccurately representing the Classical Calvinist position. Good works are the result of salvation. If God saves a person part of that salvation is the causing of them to turn from their life of sin and to do good works. Part of that salvation is the sanctification of a person whereby God sets them apart and causes them to live more and more unto Him. Logic only breaks down when you build a straw man.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist

    For those interested, here is a more thorough explanation of the Classical Calvinist postion on sanctification written by Rev. Houck.


    Just as God sovereignly justifies His people through the blood of Christ, so too it is God alone Who sovereignly sanctifies them by the mighty working of the Spirit of Christ. While justification has to do with our legal state before God, sanctification has to do with our actual condition. We are freed from the guilt of sin by justification, but we are still sinners. Sin still abides within the child of God so that even the best of his good works are defiled by it. In sanctification, however, God's people are delivered from the power and dominion of sin. The Spirit of God gives grace to "put off the old man" and "put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him." (Col. 3:9-10). The apostle Paul speaks of this in II Corinthians 3:18. He says, "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." Although the believer will never be perfect in this life, in sanctification he is more and more changed into the image of Christ.

    It can not be denied, therefore, that the justified sinner must perform good works. It is not true that you can live like the devil because you are justified. Even though in justification the believer is sovereignly freed from the guilt of every sin, his justification is not the ground for a wicked life. That is the lie of the devil. We who believe in the sovereignty of God's grace believe that God so works in the hearts of His people that He causes them more and more to flee sin and seek that which is good and right. Good works are an essential part of the Christian life. Thus the apostle Peter exhorts us, "But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy, for I am holy." (I Pet. 1:15-16). Jesus tells us that we manifest the fact that we are followers of Him by bearing much fruit. He says, "Herein is my father glorified, that ye bear much fruit: so shall ye be my disciples." (John 15:8). Those who are the objects of God's grace are to glorify God by showing the world the good works which that grace has wrought in them. "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matt. 5:16).

    In fact, if a man says that he is a believer and yet lives a wicked life of continual sin and debauchery, he shows us that he is not the object of God's grace. The faith which is given by the grace of God is a faith that seeks God and the righteousness of the kingdom of God. James teaches us that when he says, "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?...Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:14,17). True faith always manifests itself in good works. Indeed, the believer is far from perfect. Nevertheless, his sanctification implies that he does seek to do that which is good and well-pleasing to God.

    But are these good works the product of the believer's own strength? Do they contribute anything to salvation? May they be considered man's part in salvation? No, never! That is impossible, for all the good works that any believer performs are solely the product of the grace of God. Apart from God's work of sanctification His people can do nothing. Thus we read in Philippians 2:13, "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." The believer does what is pleasing to God only because God sovereignly works that good work in him. He makes the believer want to do what is right and He makes him do it too. In fact, all of the good works which His people perform have been determined by God from before the foundation of the world. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). The Christian's life of sanctification is so much in the hands of God that individual believers do all the good works which God has ordained for each one to do. Thus sanctification, even as justification, is totally the work of God. Just as Christ is said to be our justification, so too He is said to be our sanctification. "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification..." (I Cor. 1:30). Sanctification is the result of the sovereign work of the Spirit of Christ based upon the blood of Christ. It is only in the power of the blood of Christ that the believer can ever conquer sin and do that which is good. The Holy Spirit teaches us this in Hebrews 10:10, "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Indeed, Christ Jesus our Lord, Who died for His people, is all of salvation. From beginning to end salvation is based upon His precious blood.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist

    Rev. Houck:

    While justification has to do with our legal state before God, sanctification has to do with our actual condition. We are freed from the guilt of sin by justification, but we are still sinners. Sin still abides within the child of God so that even the best of his good works are defiled by it. In sanctification, however, God's people are delivered from the power and dominion of sin.

    And this defense of the traditional Protestant interpretation by Rev. Houck summarizes perfectly the radical difference in our hermeneutical methods. 1 Cor. 1:30 and Heb. 10:10 talk about a once-for-all sanctification in Christ, he bends these to be a proleptic reference to future growth.

    We have no difference with the Reformed position on growth and the gradual change of a Christian from glory to glory. That is not the issue.

    Christ is our complete and perfect wisdom, justification, sanctification, and redemption--PERIOD (1 Cor. 1:30). How could anything in scripture be more lucid? There is no progressive sanctification (holiness) which grows from weaker to stronger. It is perfect, complete, and a continuous status in Christ from eternity to eternity!
    _______________________________________________

    Notice to all: For at least the next 2 months I will not be posting as much on this forum. After the completion of my studies in the 'Two Seeds' thread, nothing of my perceived heterodoxy is left uncovered. Since I was pressed to state ALL of my convictions on these matters, I am convinced that the value of my testimony has been seriously reduced. I believe it is time to 'lay low' for a while; my fire has died out.

    I will sign on about about every 2 weeks from here on out but do not expect much dialog for a long time. God's blessings and grace to all!
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist

    Quote Originally Posted by BillTwisse
    Notice to all: For at least the next 2 months I will not be posting as much on this forum. After the completion of my studies in the 'Two Seeds' thread, nothing of my perceived heterodoxy is left uncovered. Since I was pressed to state ALL of my convictions on these matters, I am convinced that the value of my testimony has been seriously reduced. I believe it is time to 'lay low' for a while; my fire has died out.

    I will sign on about about every 2 weeks from here on out but do not expect much dialog for a long time. God's blessings and grace to all!
    Bob, your posts are some of the most amazing things on the Internet. I know of nobody else in the world like you - I definitely adore your presence on this board - you will be missed.

    Your Brother in the Lord,
    Brandan
    This is my signature.

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    Re: Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist

    Quote Originally Posted by BT
    And this defense of the traditional Protestant interpretation by Rev. Houck summarizes perfectly the radical difference in our hermeneutical methods. 1 Cor. 1:30 and Heb. 10:10 talk about a once-for-all sanctification in Christ, he bends these to be a proleptic reference to future growth.
    He did not say the verses proved this though. He was using these verses to show that our sanctification is rooted in Christ not the timing of it.

    If there is no progressive aspect of sanctification how do you explain the following verses where agiasmos is used?
    RSV Romans 6:19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification.
    ESV Romans 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.
    NAU 1 Thessalonians 4:7 For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.
    NAU 1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;
    ASV 1 Timothy 2:15 but she shall be saved through her child-bearing, if they continue in faith and love and sanctification with sobriety.
    How can a person continue in sanctification if sanctification is not an ongoing thing?
    ASV Hebrews 12:14 Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord:
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist

    Allow me to echo Brandan's words! I have been fortunate for some 3 years now, may be more, to enjoy the friendship and the wisdom of Brother Bob, Bill Twisse in this Forum. I wish all of you could sit an afternoon with him as I did a couple of times just to "pick his brain". It is worth many months in Bible School, especially because Bible Schools do not share Bob's courage in dissenting when dissention is not only required but BEGGED by those who are tired of traditions!

    I beg to dissent; I beg to differ; I beg to say: If it is not broken, BREAK IT! So does Bob with much more wisdom and propriety than I could ever do!
    Milt
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    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

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    Re: Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist

    Bill:

    Looking past my sarcasm and from my heart, I will personally miss reading your posts. Just remember it is not always what "we" perceive as our value, but what others gain from reading you. reconsider your hiatus (sp) and dont worry about what your convinced about, your insights and love for Christ is a blessing for all to witness.

    May God Keep you


    Lion

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    Re: Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist

    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen
    P.S. Just a quick note, I barely had time to read your post Jan but be sure that I am not talking about 'cheap grace' in no way shape or form. Isn't is funny that people always think that when you start talking about works. Having a correct understanding of works and what they are is truly important to a Christian. Do I only then bring glory to God when I am obedient???
    My dear friend Eileen ... I was only making the assessment of my own experience and never considered you to be promoting or talking about "cheap grace'. I just know from my own experience that I went from a works religion to an absolutely NO WORKS matter religion.

    Just wanted to clear that misunderstanding up ... I hope to catch up on the rest of what has been discussed.

    I did notice that Bob was having major "burnout" .... I think we all relate to that and I will truly miss his insightful observations. You make me think Mr Bill as does most of you folks in here. Hope you return soon Bob or Mr Twisse .

    Out for now .... Jan
    It is what it is

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    Re: Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist

    Brother Bob:

    I have 'grown' tremendously from the wisdom and insight that our Sovereign God has given to you. You have shared that here and I am most thankful to have been blessed by it.

    We each must do what we are convicted of and I know you believe that strongly. Rest and be renewed in your spirit according to the richness of Christ Jesus and return again, I pray.

    Grace and Peace to you

    Eileen~
    "To those who have no works-phobia, I will state that you are not trembling before the gospel" Robert R. Higby

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    Re: Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist

    Many sincere thanks to all of you!

    I expect to eventually be back full-time but need a long break to finish some studies I'm engaged in on the influence of Greek philosophy on early Christianity and inter-testamental Judaism. I cannot continue writing at present because I don't have my conclusions fully sorted out on these matters. I definitely feel there is more evidence to turn over.

    May the Lord continue to bless all of you devout students of Christ the living Word of God! I will continue to answer all private correspondence.

    Grace alone and always,

    Brother Bob (Bill)
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist

    To converse with Bill Ross and his beliefs - go to this thread: http://www.predestinarian.net/showthread.php?t=1857
    This is my signature.

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    Re: Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist

    Whew thanks for cleaning this thread up ... Jan
    It is what it is

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    Re: Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist

    Quote Originally Posted by doctr of grace
    Whew thanks for cleaning this thread up ... Jan
    I just completed reading the posts to this thread. Thanks in advance. We are all arminians by nature. To me to be arminian is to be totally depraved doctrinally. Still a slave to sin. But thanks be to God for His electing love,choosing His own from before the foundations of the world. That He sent His Son, to atone for His own. Thanks be to God for His irresistable grace that we should not fall in this sin cursed world with a nature that both humbles us and makes us zealous for His honor and glory. Our lives are a living testimony, like looking in the water , a child of God looks into his own heart and sees how undeserving one is of His grace. Some though, looking into the water quickly throw the rock to the water to hide,sidestep that this work is solely God's alone. But the ripples soon disappear and they are left with the same answer. We still have the effects of the fall ever with us in this veil of tears. Some babble the rail of hyper calvinism and it makes me angry. For what is termed hyper is the truth of being reformed. I find that those that rail would rather advocate the rejection of errors of the reformed faith, and reject the positive articles of the reformed faith. I see that more so from the Canons of Dort. In classic Luther style it is as breaking wind in front of me ..... it just plain stinks. el rana

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    Re: Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist

    Hello Brothers!

    Just found this site - looked at a few postings, and already I'm excited for the potential. The site is beautiful and the topics awesome. My one critique is on the sign up you can only chose (superlapserian Calvinist) or (hyper-Calvinist Hardliner) but not both.
    In response to this article, I have to say I was happy to read it! Superlapserians have often been miss understood, and the so called difficulty of "double election" or whatever we want to call it, is no better answered by the Infra's as well stated in Brendan's article (contra Francis Turretin).
    It seems to me that our eschatology will have a big impact on whether or not we are able to take comfort from God's total sovereignty or not. Or as my favorite exegete puts it: 'our eschatology should govern our soteriology' rough quote from Geerhardus Vos in the "Pauline Eschatology". Who also has many helpful insights into Creator/ CONSUMMATOR and the inseparable bond between the two concepts. In other words, for God to be God at all: He must remain constant from the beginning through to the end or consummation. That all things created share this grand scheme of consummative glory bringing to God, whether for justice or mercy, is as necessary to God's character as God being good!
    So the Superlapserians have a bad name because they see God's glory as the ultimate end of all things. Not a bad rap if you think about it, and coincidentally seems most agreeable with scripture.
    To the Loinovjudah: I say, consider Hosea 4:6 which says: "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children." While I agree that a perfect understanding is not a requirement of salvation I ask you to remember that Brandon is not arguing for man's proper understanding, but rather insisting that God is sovereign TOTALLY! So you seem to be arguing a point that was never made, and come close to defending a faith with out knowledge. Thomas Watson says that "the antecedent of love is knowledge". if that is true, along with Hosea I would say that those who willfully suppress knowledge of God and the scripture -- like Mr. Wesley, are declaring their lack of love for God. This is not at all to say that men can be without error in their knowledge. Nor is it to say that all Christians don't in someway hold to error and yet are saved. Because again as Brandon stressed - Salvation is of grace 100%

    To Brandon, I applaud your vigor and zeal! In my opinion you have a consistent and logical position. Be cautioned though, logic is usually judged by men, where wisdom by God. We should all be more willing to have spoken of us, what was said of John Bunyan: "If you pricked him anywhere his blood would run bibli." Rather than "our case was always logical." ( I'm not at all against logic) The mixture of eternal perspective, and man's perspective is usually not without complication, and many Christian brothers and sisters have a very difficult time with the eternal perspective. This is why it is important to point out that the scripture say that we were "created unto good works" and not that good works are part of sanctification!
    Hyper-Calvinism is no more than biblical Christianity after all.
    "We see that our whole salvation and all its parts are comprehended in Christ[Acts 4:12]. We should therefore take care not to derive the least portion of it from anywhere else." - John Calvin

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