Pristine Grace

View Poll Results: Is it possible to live your life without ever sinning?

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Thread: Did god ask humanity to do something that he knew to be impossible?

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    Question Did god ask humanity to do something that he knew to be impossible?

    Jesus was fully man fully god. Nothing he did on earth was beyond what man is capable of. Does this then mean that it is at least possible for humans to go through life without sinning? Or did god ask us to do something impossible? If jesus was fully man and did not sin despite the temptations against him, it is possible for anyone to do the same. Difficult, but possible. What do you think?

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    Yes, He does require the impossible. It's impossible on our own. But the impossible becomes possible with the power of God. Jesus imputed His righteousness to His chosen people. We that have faith in the Living God are free from the guilt of sin.
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    I agree, Kermie. This view is completely substantiated in the Bible. The best example of this is the Mosaic Law and the Jews. God required them to do everything written in the law knowing full well that they could not.

    Grace to you,

    jak.

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    Let's see, God creates people to think for themselves, punishes them for doing so, requires them to be perfect, then punishes them again for not being perfect. He then decides what he did was a mistake and kills nearly everyone, except that he left the "sin nature" in the ones he saved and has to punish everyone all over again. Now he figures the situation is hopeless and takes matters into his own hands. He creates the perfect human to thumb his nose at everyone saying in effect, "See, I TOLD you it was possible to be perfect." The only thing is, he didn't give the rest of humanity the same advantage of being half-god. As one last insult, he destroys the model man and now expects everyone to be the same thing or, once again, will be punished for failing. What's the point of all these failed attempts at getting people to worship him if he could have just done it right the FIRST time? Why the cycle of commands, sins, punishments, and redemptions? I must say that if this is "intelligent design", it's not so intelligent. Gee, it almost sounds like something HUMANS would do!

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    Originally posted by questian
    Let's see, God creates people to think for themselves
    That's correct.
    punishes them for doing so [that is thinking for themselves]
    No, He doesn't punish people for thinking.
    requires them to be perfect
    That's correct.
    then punishes them again for not being perfect.
    Again, you're correct.
    He then decides what he did was a mistake
    Please share the Scripture that teaches this.

    Now he figures the situation is hopeless and takes matters into his own hands.
    No, He knew from the beginning the situation was hopeless.

    He creates the perfect human
    No, He became human.
    to thumb his nose at everyone saying in effect, "See, I TOLD you it was possible to be perfect."
    Jesus never said that. He WAS perfect, but never stated that man could be perfect.
    The only thing is, he didn't give the rest of humanity the same advantage of being half-god.
    Actually, He was fully God and fully man at the same time. Not a "half-god."
    As one last insult, he destroys the model man
    How is that an insult. He poured out His wrath on Himself in order to save many.
    and now expects everyone to be the same thing
    Yes, He expects perfection...
    or, once again, will be punished for failing.
    Everyone failed, but He paid for the failure of many.
    What's the point of all these failed attempts at getting people to worship him if he could have just done it right the FIRST time?
    Where does it say God failed at getting people to worship Him? The people who worship Him were created to worship Him. The people who don't worship Him were created for wrath.
    Why the cycle of commands, sins, punishments, and redemptions?
    I believe it was all intentionally designed for His glory.
    I must say that if this is "intelligent design", it's not so intelligent.
    Who are you, mere man, to answer back to God? You are mere human, incapable of creation, incapable of even adding a single hour to your life span, yet you rebel against the CREATOR.
    Gee, it almost sounds like something HUMANS would do!
    This is the most cynical thing I've ever read. You, my friend, take every breath by God's mercy, who has been withholding His judgement upon you. Take heed, and give Him your do, or you will suffer a death so excruciatingly painful, you will wish you had never been born.
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    I will have to echo the comments from Kermie in most regards. We do have different view on predestination. I think God gives everyone a choice to accept Him and some do not. I do not see how we can directly blame God for Adam and then later us making mistakes. We made them ourselves and we should own up to them. The real question to me is why would God create us and continue to create us even though He knew we would sin and some would go to Hell? I think this is a hard question. It is easy if you are a calvinist when you are talking about the elect but what about the non-elect? Does God have a responsibility to those He created and knows that they will not and more importantly CANNOT go to heaven?

    As one that believes that eveyone has a choice it is hard also because it makes God look like He is not very powerful or smart etc.. However I believe that God gave up something to let man have a will. That is He let's decide our own fate. That does not mean that God is less powerful it means that He is more powerful. Now was it wise for God to do this? I do not know the answer to that. I will ask Him when I see Him. God's ways are higher than my ways. Taht is not a cop out because I believe that there is no way I can judge that question. I do not have anywher close to enough of the informatio nrequired to judge something like that. i can't ask anyone else either because No one else is int hte position of God. God has said He did it for His pleasure. That will have to do for now.

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    He then decides what he did was a mistake


    "The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made them." Genesis 6:6-7

    No, He knew from the beginning the situation was hopeless.


    Then why bother, other than out of self-interest?

    Jesus never said that. He WAS perfect, but never stated that man could be perfect.


    "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48

    "Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." Matthew 19:21

    Actually, He was fully God and fully man at the same time. Not a "half-god."


    This makes for a more uneven playing field.

    He poured out His wrath on Himself in order to save many.


    I fail to see any logic in this when he could have prevented the whole ordeal from the beginning.

    The people who worship Him were created to worship Him. The people who don't worship Him were created for wrath.


    Therefore, someone who was designed to act a certain way is not responsible for their actions. They are operating on auto-pilot, just following internal directions, PREDESTINED, have NO FREE WILL.

    I believe it was all intentionally designed for His glory.


    Create the problem, offer the solution. The perfect scheme.

    This is the most cynical thing I've ever read. You, my friend, take every breath by God's mercy, who has been withholding His judgement upon you. Take heed, and give Him your do, or you will suffer a death so excruciatingly painful, you will wish you had never been born.


    You are correct, it IS cynical because that's how I see the situation. I'm not too worried about God's judgement or he would have carried it out a long time ago. And such fire and brimstone from an avowed pacifist. Show me how powerful he is by praying down his wrath on me just as the prophets did on their detractors. I dare you. Believe me, it won't happen. Until you yank me from this board, my skepticism will remain for others to witness.

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    Originally posted by questian
    "The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made them." Genesis 6:6-7
    God doesn't claim here to have made a mistake. You can spank your child, and later grieve that you had to. Was it a mistake to spank your child?
    Then why bother, other than out of self-interest?
    Yes, that's why. Out of His own interest, and His own desire.
    "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48

    "Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." Matthew 19:21
    Jesus is here telling people to be perfect, but never stated they COULD be perfect on their own. When we become regenerated (that is born again), God views sees us AS PERFECT AS JESUS, as if we never sinned.
    I fail to see any logic in this when he could have prevented the whole ordeal from the beginning.
    Well, HE COULD have prevented the whole ordeal from the beginning yes. But He decided this is the way to do it. I do not know why.....

    Isaiah 55:8, (NASB), "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the Lord.
    Therefore, someone who was designed to act a certain way is not responsible for their actions. They are operating on auto-pilot, just following internal directions, PREDESTINED, have NO FREE WILL.
    That's correct. We are predestined and have no free will. However, you are still responsible for your actions.

    Romans 9:15-23, (NASB)

    15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
    16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
    17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth."
    18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
    19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
    20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
    21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
    22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
    23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
    Create the problem, offer the solution. The perfect scheme.
    Wow, here comes the cynicism again.....
    You are correct, it IS cynical because that's how I see the situation. I'm not too worried about God's judgement or he would have carried it out a long time ago. And such fire and brimstone from an avowed pacifist. Show me how powerful he is by praying down his wrath on me just as the prophets did on their detractors. I dare you. Believe me, it won't happen. Until you yank me from this board, my skepticism will remain for others to witness.
    1. I don't want to see you perish, my words are meant to only serve as a warning.

    2. Romans 12:19, (NASB), Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. I have no desire to pray down wrath upon you.

    3. Romans 2:3-5, (NASB) But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
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    You can spank your child, and later grieve that you had to. Was it a mistake to spank your child?


    Spanking is not the same as killing someone although both are pointless and cruel. Discipline is supposed to serve a lesson in cause and effect and allow a change a behavior. Spanking is a "manufactured" punishment designed to force a behavioral change. This eternal death penalty is worse in that the victims NEVER have a chance to redeem themselves. As has been stated in another thread, people do change over time. Who's to say criminal behavior can't be rehabilitated? Actually, we are not talking about criminal behavior, only failing to acknowledge a self-serving diety as the master of the universe.

    Jesus is here telling people to be perfect, but never stated they COULD be perfect on their own. When we become regenerated (that is born again), God views sees us AS PERFECT AS JESUS, as if we never sinned.


    Again, why tell someone to do something KNOWING they won't be able to? It is a cruel, torturous joke and is worse when you actively prevent them from doing what you want.

    We are predestined and have no free will. However, you are still responsible for your actions.


    Responsibility is a result of choice. How can anyone be responsible for something they have no choice in? I might as well say YOU are responsible for all the evil in the world. This is why it's so easy for people to say "It's God's fault" since he presumably has the ability to change the situation.

    I don't want to see you perish, my words are meant to only serve as a warning.


    Your "warning" is nothing but an empty threat. I may be inclined to test it further since I don't see any evidence of it ever coming to fruition for anyone else. I may even have to change my name to Mordecai.

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    Originally posted by questian
    Responsibility is a result of choice. How can anyone be responsible for something they have no choice in? I might as well say YOU are responsible for all the evil in the world. This is why it's so easy for people to say "It's God's fault" since he presumably has the ability to change the situation.
    Oh, you do have a choice. You simply cannot choose to do anything but what your nature allows you to. You were born in sin, and your nature leads you do nothing BUT sin. Every sin you commit, however, is a sin you willingly choose to do. The reason you cannot do good is the same reason you cannot choose to sprout wings and fly.
    Your "warning" is nothing but an empty threat. I may be inclined to test it further since I don't see any evidence of it ever coming to fruition for anyone else. I may even have to change my name to Mordecai.
    Ya know, I could bring up Pascal's wager, but I won't.
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    Newspeak doubleplus good, no?

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    LOL Smugg!
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    Newspeak doubleplus undumb <-- Ooops, my ungood....
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    Kermie:

    I hate to break in to your arguement with questian but
    you siad:

    "Oh, you do have a choice. You simply cannot choose to do anything but what your nature allows you to. You were born in sin, and your nature leads you do nothing BUT sin. Every sin you commit, however, is a sin you willingly choose to do. The reason you cannot do good is the same reason you cannot choose to sprout wings and fly."

    How can you have a choice but have your nature completely not allow you to make any other choice? how is that a choice if the God has made you determined that He will not make it possible to choose anything but sin? I know about total depravity and all but if you believe that man does nto have a choice about whether to follow God or not and that God drags or forces man to become saved and not everyone is saved then How can man be held responsible. If man can choose then man is held responsible for not choosing God. Also it would allow a chance for all men not to sin thus putting the blame on the man not God. If God does not give man a choice then how can man be responsible? I do not want to hear that He just is or the Bible says that He is. I want you to interpret logiaclly how this can be. you can use the Bible of course but don't just use it and not look at how it fits together. Basically through Bible verse explain how God can not help man have a nature to choose something different than sin and still give man a choice?

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    Blackhaw, you really are bent on fighting the doctrines of grace, aren't you. I've told you before in another thread....

    Depraved man does not have free will. However, he does have free agency. That is he can freely make decisions. However, since he is depraved, he can only act according to his nature. For example, we have human nature and cannot fly like a bird. Why? Because we have no wings. We cannot choose to sprout wings and fly like a bird.... this is what the doctrine of free will teaches, however..

    Man in his depraved state is presented with the opportunity to sin or glorify God. His choice will always be to rebel against the Creator, unless God intervenes. He IS choosing to rebel. Just as you choose to eat your meal each night, man chooses to sin against the Creator.

    Take for instance, a drug addict. Every time he shoots, snorts, loads, or tokes, he's choosing to get high. The laws in the United States state that it's illegal to involve one's self in such practices. Yet, the addict cannot do anything but get high. He has to. It satisfies his cravings. He craves his drug so badly that he will always choose to get high given the opportunity. Now do you believe this drug addict is guilty of breaking the law? Should he be held responsible for breaking the law? Yes, he was an addict, but that's not the point. He had plenty of opportunities to kick the habit, but could not.

    To a degree, much greater than a drug addict to drugs, the depraved man is addicted to sin. He knows he's breaking the law, but cannot do anything but sin. On top of that, he hates God.
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    freewill

    Kermie:

    i am confused again you said

    "Depraved man does not have free will. However, he does have free agency. That is he can freely make decisions."

    Huh?

    well i look up the definition of freewill on dictionary.com and here is the definition.

    free·will (frwl)
    adj.
    Done of one's own accord; voluntary

    So it seems like to me Kermie that you are using different definitions to fit your needs.

    "For example, we have human nature and cannot fly like a bird. Why? Because we have no wings. We cannot choose to sprout wings and fly like a bird.... this is what the doctrine of free will teaches, however.. "

    Okay we can't do everything. that does not meanwe have no freewill at all. If you are just trying to say that we do not have total freewill then yes we don't but that is not what i was talkig about in my post. But really do we have a choice whether to fly on our own power or no. No we do not. That is because we can't do it. If we could do it then we would have a choice whether to do it or not and would always choose not to do it. We can't have choice when one of our selections there is no way we can do.


    "Man in his depraved state is presented with the opportunity to sin or glorify God. His choice will always be to rebel against the Creator, unless God intervenes. He IS choosing to rebel. Just as you choose to eat your meal each night, man chooses to sin against the Creator."

    No. He does not have a choice because he can't choose the other way. So he is not presented with the oppurtunity to glorify God. It is beyond his power. I can't choose whther to walk or fly to school beasue i can't fly.

    "Take for instance, a drug addict. Every time he shoots, snorts, loads, or tokes, he's choosing to get high. The laws in the United States state that it's illegal to involve one's self in such practices. Yet, the addict cannot do anything but get high. He has to. It satisfies his cravings. He craves his drug so badly that he will always choose to get high given the opportunity. Now do you believe this drug addict is guilty of breaking the law? Should he be held responsible for breaking the law? Yes, he was an addict, but that's not the point. He had plenty of opportunities to kick the habit, but could not. "

    First of all the addict had a choice at one time. You are not saying that addicts befoer they have taken any drugs do not have a choice are you? The sinner that is not in the elect never had a choice. Also addicts can't choose not to take drugs? many stop doing drugs all the time. Now taht might mean that he has to get somebody to force him to not take them but stil he made a choice. Also what do we do with people like the addict nowadays? We have pity on them and get them into rehab or atleast a place where they can't get the drugs. At least that is the compassionate thing. To a certain extent we do not hold them responsible for their actions. Not toally but then again they had a choice atleast at one time.

    Okay let's take the addict analogy a bit further. Lets say wee have a crack baby. the kid is an addict coming out of the womb. What is the compassionate and right thing to do? It is to offer them help. they did not cause it. Well let's say that later in life they start taking drugs and doing wrong. Stil lwhat is the compassionate and right thing? To help them get off of drugs.

    What else can i say? Does God want the nonelect to go to Hell? I guess so because he is sovereign and has given them no choice. okay i am very tired of this argument.

    i am sorry kermie that i got back into it when i said I would not and i am sorry i have been bringing it up again and again. I still do not get your views but oh well.
    Blackhaw

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    OK, the discussion on free will between you and me blackhaw ends in this thread right now. I really am tired of discussing this with you. You go ahead, and believe that perversion (free will) of the gospel if you want. It's works based soteriology if you really believe it is your free will that saves you. Go ahead and think you had a part in your salvation, take away from God's glory. I really don't want to discuss it with you anymore.... *sigh* As for this website, it will continue to proclaim the truth that it is God who saves, not God plus man's free will. Take a look at the 5 Solas up there, and ask yourself if you really think Sola Gratia means "God's Grace alone plus my free will."' You are free to discuss this issue with me further, but not in this thread. Let's take it to the soteriology forum where it belongs.......

    As for you questian, you are always welcome to be a skeptic here... Believe me, I would rather see you as a true believer glorifying God with your presence here. But, I do believe you are blind and incapable of knowing God on your own. Therefore, I will pray for you, and hope that He does save you and your family.

    Smugg, the same goes for you. I have enjoyed our banter from time to time. God has blessed you with a remarkable intellect as far as I can tell. I too desire with all my heart that you would come to know the Living God. You are welcome to continue to debate with others here on this forum.

    If anything, I owe both of you a huge thanks. You have done an excellent job of questioning the beliefs of Christians. I believe it is important for a Christian to be challenged in all areas of His faith..

    Anyway, thanks
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