Pristine Grace
Page 1 of 2 1 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 28

Thread: Epistemological or Metaphysical indwelling of the Holy Spirit

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    OR
    Posts
    1,064
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Epistemological or Metaphysical indwelling of the Holy Spirit

    http://www.ibri.org/25regen.htm

    I don't know anything about Robert J. Dunzweiler but I found this article interesting (It gets better towards the end).

    This subject was mentioned in a comparison chart between Covenant Theology, NCT and MCT. Does anyone have any comments on this or any articles they have found helpful?

    Mike


  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Wild West Arizona
    Posts
    344
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Epistemological or Metaphysical indwelling of the Holy Spirit

    Mike,

    I enjoyed reading the article and I being CT'er agree with his conclusion in the end. One scripture that comes to mind is the one where David asks the Lord to not remove the Holy Spirit from him.

    (Psa 51:11 KJV) Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

    If the Spirit wasn't with David why would David ask God not to take Him away? I think God is very consistent and has saved ppl the same way from Adam to today.

    I disagree with Chafer's use of the verse in demonstrating a removing of the Holy Spirit. I believe that is a conclusion that is read into the text. If a person is treated differently during the OT times then they could not have been declared "righteous, blameless or faithful". For all of these are found only in the righteousness of Christ.

    Thanks for the thought provoking article ... Jan
    It is what it is

  3. #3
    Moderator Eileen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    756
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Epistemological or Metaphysical indwelling of the Holy Spirit

    I too in reading the comparisons of Brandan's on the CT, NCT, MCTwas very interested in what was actually meant in the use of the two words and of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Thanks for the article which I will read in-depth this evening.

    I wrote to my pastor and asked his opinion of the definition of the two words and what they meant and this is what he said:

    "The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not a matter of essence (not metaphysical)- that is, the essence or substance of the Holy Spirit is not dwelling in me in a way that He, being omnipresent, is not everywhere else. Rather, His indwelling is a matter of teaching me knowledge (epistemological) and transforming my behaviour (ethical). He is our teacher and comforter and applies the Word of God to us."

    I'm not sure exactly how it worked in the OT Saints ,although too I think we must remember that many of them the Lord spoke to directly or through the prophets, but I believe the Holy Spirit was active, I just don't know to what extent or how much, if any, differences there were.

    Something I have been studying a bit more upon it even being raised. More in-put would be appreciated........

    Eileen~
    "To those who have no works-phobia, I will state that you are not trembling before the gospel" Robert R. Higby

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,849
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Epistemological or Metaphysical indwelling of the Holy Spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by Reformed SSgt
    http://www.ibri.org/25regen.htm

    I don't know anything about Robert J. Dunzweiler but I found this article interesting (It gets better towards the end).

    This subject was mentioned in a comparison chart between Covenant Theology, NCT and MCT. Does anyone have any comments on this or any articles they have found helpful?

    Mike
    Mike can you please define what you or others mean by epistimoligical vs metaphysical? I for one have heard those terms used with distinct meanings.

    Thanx

    Joe

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    OR
    Posts
    1,064
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Epistemological or Metaphysical indwelling of the Holy Spirit

    No problem Joe, I will try my best...

    Epistemological: The 'location' of the Holy Spirit has always been the same and will always remain the same. He is omni present and therefore His dwelling does not make a home inside the believer--much like we live in our homes--rather His relationship with us changes (He now teaches, comforts, convicts the believer and interceeds for them as well).

    Metaphysical: The 'location' of the Holy Spirit is only present inside believers and not non-believers or the world. He makes His abode inside you much like we would a house (maybe like we sometimes think of a demon possesing someone?).

    I tried to make these short and to the point. I myself have just started to study this so if I have not defined these terms well enough I apologize.


  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,849
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Epistemological or Metaphysical indwelling of the Holy Spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by Reformed SSgt
    No problem Joe, I will try my best...

    Epistemological: The 'location' of the Holy Spirit has always been the same and will always remain the same. He is omni present and therefore His dwelling does not make a home inside the believer--much like we live in our homes--rather His relationship with us changes (He now teaches, comforts, convicts the believer and interceeds for them as well).

    Metaphysical: The 'location' of the Holy Spirit is only present inside believers and not non-believers or the world. He makes His abode inside you much like we would a house (maybe like we sometimes think of a demon possesing someone?).

    I tried to make these short and to the point. I myself have just started to study this so if I have not defined these terms well enough I apologize.
    Thanx Mike. I always thought epistomology had to do with leaning and knowledge, what we 'stand upon" and why we believe as we do. So that is why I am having difficulties using that term to describe the Holy Spirit in relation to indwelling, living, renting or anythign else like that.

    That is why I am confused about this thread. If we can clrify the meaning I will be more than happy to offer and understanding.


    Joe

  7. #7
    Moderator Eileen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    756
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Epistemological or Metaphysical indwelling of the Holy Spirit

    Joe,

    I think the terminology is a bit confusing myself. In my pastor's reply he said the following"

    The epistemology: My understing is 'knowledge' also, (part of it), so I don't think you are incorrect. The Spirit indwells us in this way, by teaching us from the Word, that is how we have knowledge of Christ. I attached this in my mind to the scripture of "growing in grace and in knowledge", we do this through the indwelling of the Holy Spirt and His work in us.

    The metphysical: There must be some who say that the Holy Spirit only indwells believers and is not therefore active in presence elsewhere. I think what the article that Mike posted alluded to is that the Spirit is active in the rest of the world also, not exclusively in believers which would be indwelling metaphysically.

    I am like you, a firm understanding of the terminology is essential to our understanding. More research for me, I'm not quite there yet.

    Eileen~
    "To those who have no works-phobia, I will state that you are not trembling before the gospel" Robert R. Higby

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,849
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Epistemological or Metaphysical indwelling of the Holy Spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen
    "The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not a matter of essence (not metaphysical)- that is, the essence or substance of the Holy Spirit is not dwelling in me in a way that He, being omnipresent, is not everywhere else. Rather, His indwelling is a matter of teaching me knowledge (epistemological) and transforming my behaviour (ethical). He is our teacher and comforter and applies the Word of God to us."
    Eileen~
    Hello Eileen:

    I believe this is only part of what Christianity is about. The work, or indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not only epistilogical in nature. Christianity is not only an assent to or belief in some truth, it is much more a living in the activity of Christ who is Truth (John 14:6). Jesus did not say, "I came that you might have certain beliefs and defend them with sword and fire." He said, "I came that you might have life (the very Being of God) and have such more abundantly (John 10:10). Having said this, Scripture attests that the work of the Holy Spirit is present in the elect to bring that person from death to life. The thought of seperating the triune God because of time, vis, OT and NT, is foreign to scripture. As far as indwelling the non believer, I do not see what that would consist of. What does the Holy Spirit have to dwell in the non believer for? To make that person "more" of a sinner? TO make that person "more" reprobate?

    Perhaps I am missing the crux of this thread, and comparing what definitions Mike gave, and what Eileen quoted, I am getting more confused..hahaha.

    Are we essentially trying to determine what the work of the Holy Spirit is in the OT? Are we attempting to determine what the work of the Holy Spirit is in the believer vs non believer? If you all can please clarify this for me I would appreciate it greatly.


    Joe

  9. #9
    Moderator Eileen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    756
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Epistemological or Metaphysical indwelling of the Holy Spirit

    Hello to you Joe,

    Mike's curiosity (it seems) stemmed from the comparison chart that Brandan posted in a different thread, CT, NCT & MCT, which used the words (epistemology and metaphysical). I was also intrigued as to what those words meant in regards to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, whether in the OT saint or the NT saint.

    That was my goal in asking my pastor.....what do these words mean, how do I apply them to the whole picture of the Holy Spirit's work? I haven't been able to finish reading the article posted, so I don't know if I agree with what is there or not........takes a bit of time for me.

    Of coarse Christianity is more than these two words or what these two words mean. Discovering the meaning of these two words was just a step for me, perhaps others are only concerned about the indwelling of the OT saints, as for me, I am a NT saint and therefore want to know about the Spirit's work within me. This seemed like a good place to start.

    I might be the one who took this thread in a different direction intended, if so, I certainly did mean to.

    Does that help to clarify where I am coming from. If it is to be a discussion on OT saints only, that's ok too!
    "To those who have no works-phobia, I will state that you are not trembling before the gospel" Robert R. Higby

  10. #10
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,823
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    121
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    70
    Thanked in
    45 Posts

    Re: Epistemological or Metaphysical indwelling of the Holy Spirit

    Here is the discussion I had with Dr. Bacon on this topic - http://www.pristinegrace.org/media.php?id=401
    This is my signature.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,849
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Epistemological or Metaphysical indwelling of the Holy Spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen
    Hello to you Joe,

    Mike's curiosity (it seems) stemmed from the comparison chart that Brandan posted in a different thread, CT, NCT & MCT, which used the words (epistemology and metaphysical). I was also intrigued as to what those words meant in regards to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, whether in the OT saint or the NT saint.

    That was my goal in asking my pastor.....what do these words mean, how do I apply them to the whole picture of the Holy Spirit's work? I haven't been able to finish reading the article posted, so I don't know if I agree with what is there or not........takes a bit of time for me.

    Of coarse Christianity is more than these two words or what these two words mean. Discovering the meaning of these two words was just a step for me, perhaps others are only concerned about the indwelling of the OT saints, as for me, I am a NT saint and therefore want to know about the Spirit's work within me. This seemed like a good place to start.

    I might be the one who took this thread in a different direction intended, if so, I certainly did mean to.

    Does that help to clarify where I am coming from. If it is to be a discussion on OT saints only, that's ok too!
    Hello Eileen:

    I was not directing that response to you, I was just looking for a place to start. I feel as if I have been asked to put a puzzle together without knowing where all the pieces are. Now Brandans Chart is brought into play. Mikes article, Mikes definitions, your pastors answer. Discovering the meaning is the step for me also, And I agree we have to start somewhere. I guess I need to find brandans chart, read Mikes article. Who knows what else.

    Is there any way Mike or brandan can just present some obvuious questions, with precise definitions so I am nto fishing for and understanding of terms and application.


    Joe

  12. #12
    Moderator Eileen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    756
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Epistemological or Metaphysical indwelling of the Holy Spirit

    Helloooooooo Joe!

    I'm not sure where the confusion lies. I'm simply interested in this thread and trying to have some dialoug about this issue, therefore I made some contibution as to what I found out about the meanings of the words. I don't think anyone is trying to put a puzzle together, I think it is a new study area for me and sounded like for Mike too, how about you?

    Do you have different meanings for the two words, if so what are they?

    Maybe you don't care what the words mean or how we are to apply them in our thinking of the work of the Holy Spirit, that's ok too. I do like to understand what specific words mean. I read those two words in Brandan's paper and didn't have a clue as to what they were talking about because I had never heard those words......

    What is your understanding of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in NT saints lives and how is that worked out? (this is where I linked part of it in my own mind to 'growing in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus, as part of the work of the Holy Spirit in my heart/mind)

    Do you think it was exactly the same for the OT saints as the NT saints as pentecost had not happened yet? (I think it was somehow different than it is today, but I don't know how)

    A few questions, not from Brandan or Mike though, sorry!
    "To those who have no works-phobia, I will state that you are not trembling before the gospel" Robert R. Higby

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,849
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Epistemological or Metaphysical indwelling of the Holy Spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen
    Helloooooooo Joe!

    I'm not sure where the confusion lies. I'm simply interested in this thread and trying to have some dialoug about this issue, therefore I made some contibution as to what I found out about the meanings of the words. I don't think anyone is trying to put a puzzle together, I think it is a new study area for me and sounded like for Mike too, how about you?

    Do you have different meanings for the two words, if so what are they?

    Maybe you don't care what the words mean or how we are to apply them in our thinking of the work of the Holy Spirit, that's ok too. I do like to understand what specific words mean. I read those two words in Brandan's paper and didn't have a clue as to what they were talking about because I had never heard those words......

    What is your understanding of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in NT saints lives and how is that worked out? (this is where I linked part of it in my own mind to 'growing in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus, as part of the work of the Holy Spirit in my heart/mind)

    Do you think it was exactly the same for the OT saints as the NT saints as pentecost had not happened yet? (I think it was somehow different than it is today, but I don't know how)

    A few questions, not from Brandan or Mike though, sorry!
    Helloooooooooo Eileen:

    I will respond to this later. As I spent the last 20 minutes preparing a response, we had a power surge at work and my computer went blank!!!!!!!!!! I was 3 minutes away from hitting submit reply then poof!!!!!!!!

    I AM IN TEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    OR
    Posts
    1,064
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Epistemological or Metaphysical indwelling of the Holy Spirit

    I'm glad to see others here are as interested in learning more about this as I am. I know the dictionary definitions don't help us understand the theological definitions in full, so all I am left with FOR NOW is the link I posted and Brandan's chart. Keep in mind that (as I stated earlier) I have just started studying this myself so I'm not going to be defending one side or the other.
    So lets give this discusion some direction.

    1.) What do the scriptures say (OT and NT) about the omnipresents of the Holy Spirit?

    Jer 23:24 - Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the LORD. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the LORD.

    Psalm 139:7-12 - Where shall I go from your Spirit?
    Or where shall I flee from your presence?
    8If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
    If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
    9If I take the wings of the morning
    and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
    10even there your hand shall lead me,
    and your right hand shall hold me.
    11If I say, "Surely the darkness shall cover me,
    and the light about me be night,"
    12even the darkness is not dark to you;
    the night is bright as the day,
    for darkness is as light with you.

    Eph 4:4-7 - There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;5one Lord, one faith, one baptism,6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.7But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. (This one may not apply?)

    So it's clear God's presents is everywhere and in everything right?

    I'm sure there are more scriptures, but I think we get the point.

    The next step is to define what we mean by the Holy Spirit indwelling believers vs. not indwelling non-believers...


  15. #15
    Moderator Eileen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    756
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Epistemological or Metaphysical indwelling of the Holy Spirit

    The next step is to define what we mean by the Holy Spirit indwelling believers vs. not indwelling non-believers...

    Well this seemed like a good place to start:

    1 Cor 2:11-16
    "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of a man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12, Now we have received , not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13, Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned, 15, But he this is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16, For who hat known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

    Awesome truth, wouldn't you agree? So....the only way we can grow in the Grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ is because we have the Spirit teaching us, right? So the Spirit is our teacher, that we can know for sure.

    Now as to the unbeliever, he can't spiritually discern anything because he doesn't have the Spirit. I'm sure we all have that experience in our lives as we talk to unbelievers and they have not a clue what we are talking about.....light vs dark! I'm not sure yet on the article how to think about the Spirit being a part of the unbeliever, you? Except that the Spirit is everywhere metaphysically, that is in essence.

    I'll be looking for some more scripture!
    "To those who have no works-phobia, I will state that you are not trembling before the gospel" Robert R. Higby

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    OR
    Posts
    1,064
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Epistemological or Metaphysical indwelling of the Holy Spirit

    I did a word search of 'dwell' and got 152 used of the word. It seems that most of the time the word 'dwell' is used to describe God's relationship to man it descripbes God dwelling 'with and among His people.'

    But there are a few times where God or His Spirit are said to be in the believer...

    Ezekiel 36:26-28 - 26And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. 28You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    2 Cor 16:6 - 16Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
    "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM;
    AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE."

    Now I'm not aware of any scripture that states that the Holy Spirit is present in or has any relationship to the non-elect. Perhaps someone more learned on this will join this thread to help us out (hint, hint).

    So here we have the scripture stating that God or His Spirit will be 'in' His children. So now we can ask the question, what does it mean to 'dwell in the believer?'

    This is where the big words come in and where I need some help.


  17. #17
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,823
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    121
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    70
    Thanked in
    45 Posts

    Re: Epistemological or Metaphysical indwelling of the Holy Spirit

    I'm going to invite Dr. Bacon to join this discussion - he should be able to give us more insight.
    This is my signature.

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    OR
    Posts
    1,064
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Epistemological or Metaphysical indwelling of the Holy Spirit

    Posted by Eileen
    Awesome truth, wouldn't you agree? So....the only way we can grow in the Grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ is because we have the Spirit teaching us, right? So the Spirit is our teacher, that we can know for sure.

    Amen sis.

    The Spirit also comforts us:

    2 cor 1:3-5 - 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 4who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. 5For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too.

    I'm not sure what to think about this next scripture. It might be a subject for another thread, but it seems like it is speaking in reference to the 'effectual calling' of the elect. If so then the Holy Spirit Convicts us too. I have always believed the Holy Spirit convicts us but I'm not sure that He convicts non-elect. So I don't think this scripture can be used to show a type of 'relationship' with non-elect.

    John 16:5-11 - 5But now I am going to him who sent me, and none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

    Oh I gotta go--be back soon.



    Mike


  19. #19
    Moderator Eileen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    756
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Epistemological or Metaphysical indwelling of the Holy Spirit

    Jesus called the Spirit the comforter.......

    The scripture you posted from John gives us an large idea of what the Holy Spirit does.

    So as the Comforter He has many different aspects to His 'role'...I understand that He convicts 'us' of sin, do you think the un-believer is convicted of sin as well? Romans 2:14-15...."for when the Gentiles which have not the law do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law are a law unto themselve, 15,Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another"

    This was one scripture used in Brandan's comparisons. When an unbeliever's conscience accuses them is that the work of the Holy Spirit as he is the one who convicts of sin? I never thought of it that way, because I too never thought the Spirit worked in any way in an unbeliever....What think all of you?

    Also I wonder how the conviction of judgment and righteousness enter in the John scriptures....Does the world in this sense mean the whole world will know of righteousness and judgment or again, 'we' will know of Christ's righteousness through the Spirit and know the judgment of the prince of this world through the Spirit also. That would all fall under His guiding us into all truth!!!

    So when Christ is glorified, the Spirit is at work, amen?
    "To those who have no works-phobia, I will state that you are not trembling before the gospel" Robert R. Higby

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    England
    Posts
    383
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Epistemological or Metaphysical indwelling of the Holy Spirit

    Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world CANNOT RECIEVE,Because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John ch14v 17; He does not indwell unbielievers.Here's a quote.God is present in all places; we should not think of him, however, as filling spaces, for he has no physical dimensions. It is as pure spirit that he pervades all things,in a relationship of immanence that is more than we body-bound creatures can understand. One thing that is clear, however is that he is present everywhere in the fullness of all that he is and all the powers that he has. J I Packer end quote. Ivor Thomas..
    For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain , Phillippians 1 v21.

Page 1 of 2 1 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. WCF and 1689 Confession - Are they heresy?
    By doctr_of_grace in forum Predestinarian Doctrine Archive
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 04-09-05, 05:48 PM
  2. Martin Luther the Movie
    By GraceAmbassador in forum General Discussion Archive
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 12-25-04, 09:59 AM
  3. Question on Satan
    By bauerpauer in forum Predestinarian Doctrine Archive
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 11-20-04, 01:07 PM
  4. U.S. Taxpayers/Constitution Party
    By wildboar in forum General Discussion Archive
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 10-19-04, 03:09 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •