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Thread: 5solas.org and PristineGrace.org make Phil Johnson's bad theology page!!! Woo Hoo!!!

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    Re: 5solas.org and PristineGrace.org make Phil Johnson's bad theology page!!! Woo Hoo!!!

    DG
    Phil responded... I'll respond back

    This is a great development it shows that PJ is willing to dialog something that many were assuming would never happen just yesterday. May God be glorified in the discussions to come. I want to commend you Brandon for the way you have approached this so far. My hope is that calmer heads will continue to prevail.

    PJ
    I do have some recommended reading for you: Curt Daniel's syllabus
    _The History and Theology of Calvinism_ would be a good place for
    you to start.


    Disciple (Doug) recently recommended a tape series by that name on this forum. I’m not sure which thread. The lesson entitled Hyper Calvinism would be a good place to begin to under stand where PJ is coming from. It’s only an hour long and seems to attempt to look at the issue fairly.

    peace

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    Re: 5solas.org and PristineGrace.org make Phil Johnson's bad theology page!!! Woo Hoo!!!

    Being directed towards to 900 pages of 'so-and-so', or running head-first into a wall of "I picked this fight but retain the freedom to not prove anything to you" seems to be typical defense mechanism of those who want to champion the half-truths (lies) of one man's system of critical thought against another's.

    This appears to be moving into the "he said/she said" arena, taking the attention off the real objective; a proper understanding the truth of God's word and a proper application resulting from said understanding.

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    Re: 5solas.org and PristineGrace.org make Phil Johnson's bad theology page!!! Woo Hoo!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugly_Gaunt_Cow
    Being directed towards to 900 pages of 'so-and-so', or running head-first into a wall of "I picked this fight but retain the freedom to not prove anything to you" seems to be typical defense mechanism of those who want to champion the half-truths (lies) of one man's system of critical thought against another's.

    This appears to be moving into the "he said/she said" arena, taking the attention off the real objective; a proper understanding the truth of God's word and a proper application resulting from said understanding.
    LoL, that's about it isn't it. Read this and when your done , I'll give you more filth and babble to pour over, and when your done that, check out this breaking of wind. I say Darth stay the course with Scripture, and let PJ counter as a cornered dog exposing a weak bladder.

    greetings and salutations, el rana

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    Re: 5solas.org and PristineGrace.org make Phil Johnson's bad theology page!!! Woo Hoo!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ray
    Since I have a 56k modem it will take over 9 hours to download. This is not right. Maybe Martin I will take a look at Darth's polemic , thanks , but that download is too long for me.
    It shouldn't take that long. I downloaded the full version of acrobat on a 56k modem in about 2 and a half hours or so. There's alot of good stuff out there in .pdf format. I let my computer download large files overnight when I'm not using it.

    In Christ,
    wildboar
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Today's "Calvinism" equals "Spurgeonism"

    All of these references attacking John Gill and his higher views of grace than Spurgeon tell me this: Today's evanjellyfish "Calvinism" equals "Spurgeonism." Both Baptist and Presbyterian. It is a real reduction of the views of Calvin himself, who stated that God is the author of sin (I have often given this quote and will not give it again).
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Supralapsarianism & Hyper-Calvinism

    Quoting from Phil's web-page:

    This view (that God is as active in reprobating the non-elect as He is in redeeming the elect) is more properly labeled "equal ultimacy" (cf. R.C. Sproul, Chosen by God, 142). It is actually a form of hyper-Calvinism and has nothing to do with true, historic Calvinism. Though all who hold such a view would also hold to the supralapsarian scheme, the view itself is not a necessary ramification of supralapsarianism.

    I completely disagree with this statement. Historic supralapsarians such as Beza, Twisse, Hoeksema, and Clark have definitely taught the doctrine of equal ultimacy. There is no question about this. I believe Calvin himself taught it as I have often quoted in many threads.

    Christ himself taught in the parable of the sower that God is equally active in reprobating the non-elect: he speaks in parables to be sure that the truth is hidden from them, lest by ANY CHANCE they might turn and be forgiven. The same truths are outlined in detail in 1QS of the Dead Sea Scrolls (recently quoted in a thread on this forum) which provide the historic background for Christ's statement in this parable.

    Although I agree that Phil has STATED that not all supralapsarians are hyper-Calvinists, any form of supralapsarian that denys equal ultimacy is no more supralapsarianism. It is wishy-wash.

    I am a supralapsarian and do not claim the hyper-Calvinist label, for reasons I have stated many times. But there is no way that anyone claiming to be supra who denies equal ultimacy is in ANY sense supra (except in a purely revisionist definition).
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: 5solas.org and PristineGrace.org make Phil Johnson's bad theology page!!! Woo Hoo!!!

    When P.J. says you should read Daniel on hyper-Calvinism or John Gill , beware .

    George M. Ella , in reviewing a book edited by Michael A.G. Haykin called : " John Gill : A Tercentennial Appreciation " comments on a chapter written by Curt Daniel . Ella remarks that Daniel ... " exhibits an appalling lack of theological acumen for one introduced ... as America's number one expert on Gill . " He says that Dr. Thomas Nettles is a more reliable guide .

    David Engelsma said in a review of Daniel's " Hyper-Calvinism and John Gill " that " Those who reject the ' offer ' and universal love ... are tarred with Daniel's broad brush of hyper-Calvinism .

    " This exotic mixture of Arminianism and Amyraldianism , Daniel calls , with a kind of fetching modesty , ' low Calvinism . ' It is , indeed , low -- very low . It is abased and debased ' Calvinism . ' The glory of salvation in this gospel belongs to the sinner . Using his ' sufficient common grace ' rightly , he not only saves himself by accepting the offer but also makes the death of Christ atoning and the love of God successful . "

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    Re: 5solas.org and PristineGrace.org make Phil Johnson's bad theology page!!! Woo Hoo!!!

    I’m probably a lower Calvinist than Brandon but I’m higher in my Calvinism than PJ who is in turn higher than John Bunyan, so what. Why is there this innate need to categorize everyone and to refuse to learn anything from anyone deemed too high or too low? I read some authors for their devotional value some for their theological value etc. Why can’t we all admit that this stuff is deep and none of us is the “Grace Pope”? I’m all for study and debate but I think we need to learn to be more humble. Let’s focus more on Christ less on men and learn to test everything yet hold on to the good. That is just the opinion of one hypo-hyper-Calvinist with an antinomian twist.

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    Re: 5solas.org and PristineGrace.org make Phil Johnson's bad theology page!!! Woo Hoo!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by tomas1
    Why is there this innate need to categorize everyone and to refuse to learn anything from anyone deemed too high or too low?
    This to me seems like a fine question, worthy of an answer.

    I've just now had the time to read through this thread - I've been rather tied up responding to the flood of "emergent chuch" critique of my critique... that's been alot of fun (in all seriousness, some of them are very gracious - but most are not).

    The categorizing I think, is not so much a theological thing, but a human thing. We all do it, no matter what the subject. From brand name products v. cheap store brand, to good theology v. bad theology, to good music v. trash that has no right to be called music - there is really NO area of our lives that things are not categorized into one column or another - it's just the way people are.

    Phil Johnson has a list of bad (and really bad, and really really bad) theology. So do I... so do you, and so does Brandan, Milt, Martin, Dave Hunt (okay stop laughing), Benny Hinn (I said stop laughing) and anyone else who is interested IN theology. (Okay scratch Hunt & Hinn off the list, I can't honestly claim they're interested in theology)... but I assume you get my point.

    My own personal bad theology list very closely matches Phil Johnson's... and yet by his own criteria, I fit ONTO his bad theology page. I'm complete okay with that. The same can be said for probably most, if not all of my closest sov. grace friends... in that we all disagree in one area or another (however minor - however some view them as major), in matters regarding sotieriology, ecclesiology, eschatology, etc., so forth and so on.

    It's okay to disagree... and hopefully still treat the other person with a level of respect due a brother or sister in the household of faith.

    Alot of what I'm seeing here (dont go throwing tomatos now, boys), being said about Phil Johnson, closely mirrors what's being said in email, private messages, and on various assorted "emergent" blogs about ME. Because Johnson publicly stated hi view on the theology found here, he's been critiqued for his critique in some less than charitable ways. Not that I'm defending him (I disagree with him), I'm sure he's used to this and can more than adequately speak for himself on this - but my purpose in mentioning that is to remind my friends here that there is a better way to express your view, with someone you disagree with.

    Some of you are going to take serious personal issue with this... DON'T. I'm a messenger, and here's the message:

    Ephesians 4:
    1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
    2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
    3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
    4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
    6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
    7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

    Does this apply to this discussion? I believe it ought to. Disagree with me... disagree with Johnson, disagree with whomever you will, but let's ask ourselves if we're doing it with a measure of grace, that it may BLESS someone, and if they be in error, that it might restore them to sound doctrine (and for the record, this is as much advice to myself, as to anyone else).

    Just a few thoughts this morning.
    "SOLA SCRIPTURA… GRATIA… FIDE… CHRISTUS… DEO GLORIA" Scripture alone, being our final authority, teaches us that salvation is by grace His grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for the glory of God alone.

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    Re: Today's "Calvinism" equals "Spurgeonism"

    Quote Originally Posted by BillTwisse
    .... Calvin himself, who stated that God is the author of sin (I have often given this quote and will not give it again).
    http://www.predestinarian.net/showth...6157#post26157
    This is my signature.

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    Re: 5solas.org and PristineGrace.org make Phil Johnson's bad theology page!!! Woo Hoo!!!

    tomas1. There should be this "innate need" to categorize everyone for oneself if one is a true follower of Christ. In a scriptural manner. John the apostle wrote something to such import to his "little children" in his 1st epistle. Cp. 1John 4:1. He commanded them to "prove" the spirits. Mark well, "THE spirits", NOT "only some spirits" (like only Arminians, only liberals, only papists). The word "prove" is there in the Greek in the imperative (mood of command), present tense, thus lit. "be ye proving (continuously)!". No prudent man has a problem with this Johannine commandment to be continually proving the spirits. The word "prove" (Gr. dokimazô) means a putting to the test in order to verify of what quality or material someone or something is, so as to be able to know whether to reject or approve. This is what regenerate individuals are duty bound (by Divine command) to do, and they do it as well (from an inward impulse of the spirit, being wrought upon by the Spirit of God).

    Then as for being "humble". The scriptural meaning of "humble" or "meek" is not to imbibe all sorts of half truths through reading the writings of erroneous men, which writings no doubt contain some truths, but also many errors, both subtle and not so subtle. If one out of good reason should read such authors then due discernment is needed, so as to be able to detect and reject whatever error comes along.

    Harald

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    Re: 5solas.org and PristineGrace.org make Phil Johnson's bad theology page!!! Woo Hoo!!!

    Denial of double predestination puts a person outside of the orthodox Calvinist camp. Whether one is an infra or supra does not. Unfortunately many of late seem to think they can take the infra position and deny sovereign reprobation. There do seem to be a small number who take a certain sick delight in God's sovereign reprobation and have a great deal of pride in their own election. These are perhaps hyper-calvinists. I am not in the habit of discounting all that someone says simply because they are in a different theological camp from myself. I use a number of critical commentaries written by men who were masters of the Greek language but far away from me theologically. I do tend to read more written by those who are closer to me theologically and the reading of certain people is simply useless. Phil Johnson has a number of excellent articles on his site. Unfortunately Johnson has confused neo-calvinism with Calvinism and has labeled many who hold to orthodox calvinism as being hyper-calvinists. In that respects his articles about what constitutes hyper-calvinism and how it differs from historic calvinsm are useless since he doesn't have a firm grasp on what either are nor has he dealt with any of the arguments about common grace and so forth. I have a couple of friends who hold to the doctrine of common grace and who are very well versed in theology and have found discussion with them to be quite profitable. They are willing to discuss the issues involved rather than labeling someone as something and thinking it is enough to win the argument.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: 5solas.org and PristineGrace.org make Phil Johnson's bad theology page!!! Woo Hoo!!!

    Thanks to all for your thoughts.

    I can understand (based on many of the polemics involved) why Phil does not want to debate this here. He may be right, based on our respective convictions, that it is not a good idea at this time.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: 5solas.org and PristineGrace.org make Phil Johnson's bad theology page!!! Woo Hoo!!!

    He's scared. He is also not saved and does not have Scripture as his final authourity. Anyone who can deny what the Bible teaches in the essentials that he labels as "error" is without the Spirit of God.

    _________________________________________

    I dont normally take a pro-active role here as a moderator, but this post was brought to my attention last night, and I believe it deserves proper attention. I was going to delete it, but decided to EDIT it instead. This is just one moderator's opinion, but as far as I'm concerned this post, and this attitude is COMPLETELY out of line, and has no place here in a serious discussion. I think enough time has been wasted already by men setting themselves up as judges of other men's salvation - time to grow up in Christ a little bit here, and confess we do NOT know the state of other men's hearts. This opinion may not be shared by other moderators or the owner of this site, but frankly, I'm tired of seeing this attitude, at this forum.

    The BAD will overshadow the good, and that would be a very sad thing to see, when so many here are trying to have a fruitful discussion on serious Biblical subjects. I believe it's time to raise the standard a bit, and show a more Christlike, gracefilled, attitude.

    SOLI DEO GLORIA....... Carla
    Jude 24 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
    25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

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    Re: 5solas.org and PristineGrace.org make Phil Johnson's bad theology page!!! Woo Hoo!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by whs1
    He's scared. He is also not saved and does not have Scripture as his final authourity. Anyone who can deny what the Bible teaches in the essentials that he labels as "error" is without the Spirit of God.
    Let's NOT go DOWN that path again. Let's debate and discuss Phil Johnson's teachings in the merits of Biblical perspective. I would not like to see this discussion of "who is saved and who is not", in our site again unless they are cursing at the Trinity or something equivalent and denying God's Sovereignty. I hope I speak for many here.

    If you have anything that can help us contradict what Phil writes, please, copy and paste here and show us why he is wrong quoting the Bible without personally attacking him (or anyone). This is the path Brandan and everyone else here chose as we all responded to Phil. And this is the path we should tread. I already clarified and shared with my fellow moderators my error of comparing Phil Johnson and Marc Carpenter. Let's see if you're able to combat his ideas in the realm of ideas.

    I was asked not to disclose my own interaction with Phil explaining my improper comparison. I shared with the moderators since they're the ones I am accountable to. I "back-tracked" from that accusation and that's all I have to say.

    Brandan was very elegant and classy as he responded to Phil. and showed us a veritable Christ-like atittude. Let's learn from his example. Let's not repeat the errors of our recent past.

    Milt
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

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    Re: 5solas.org and PristineGrace.org make Phil Johnson's bad theology page!!! Woo Hoo!!!

    Did anyone notice that Phil Johnson has now move 5solas.org into the really bad theology section. He has also added some harsh words for everyone to participates on this site. Just want to let you guys know. Here is the link and the quote of what he says.

    http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/bookmark/realbad.htm


    Note: I originally placed this site in the "Bad" category, and several regulars from the "5solas" forum wrote to protest that I was being unfair. They demanded a reconsideration and an apology. So I went back and re-read more of the forum just to make sure I wasn't being overly critical. The more I read, the more deeply concerned I became. The Webmaster here is convinced that no Arminian can possibly be a true brother or sister in Christ; he responds with hearty approval to a post charging that Charles Spurgeon preached a false gospel and was a servant of Satan; and he declares that he despises the very notions of human duty and human responsibility. Other forum participants are regularly ungodly in their speech as well as their doctrine. Apparently, no position is too extreme to get a sympathetic hearing from the folks in this forum. This is an unhealthy place to hang out, and I herewith apologize for failing to list it in the "Really Bad" category in the first place.

    James
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    Re: 5solas.org and PristineGrace.org make Phil Johnson's bad theology page!!! Woo Hoo!!!

    Well, soon we will join my formerly beloved associate in the gospel, Robert Brinsmead, in the "Really, really, bad" theology section. Bring it on, Phil!

    At least truth is being genuinely debated here. Tell me anywhere else where the real issues of our time are not covered up in an avalanche of historic churchian dogma--forbidding real and open dialog. We have to risk having extremism stated; otherwise there is no possibility of getting at the truth.

    I, for one, accept Spurgeon as a brother and certainly do not view him as an apostate--but do believe that he has done great harm in part of his testimony to the gospel of Christ. His theological compromise in systematizing the free-will dogma of Westminster (i.e.; common grace, single predestination, duty faith "compel them to come in", etc.) is the legacy of modern Calvinism (Spurgeonism) . When he was eloquent on the doctrines of grace he was wonderful. When he compromised them he was (however unwitting) an agent of the devil opposing the truth.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: 5solas.org and PristineGrace.org make Phil Johnson's bad theology page!!! Woo Hoo!!!

    Brethren:

    Why don't we start our own Bad and Very Bad theology session? This cannot be Phil's prerrogative and copyright, can it?

    We can do it brethren!

    Then we can also place Web Sites in there and call them "bad" based upon our beliefs and actually not have any responsibility for defending our views before those whom we classify as "bad, or very bad theology". How's that?

    Well... that would be paying back with the same coin, and I guess this would be a "very, very, very bad, the worst kind of theology"...

    I'd rather just go on doing what I believe God called me to do and let God sort it out when He shows up with the bill. Attacking back, fighting back and overreacting will only certify to the other party that we really are what they say we are! This hurt some of us personally; especially me since my concept of "hyper" is a very bad one, outside of the things we discuss here. However, I am able to move on and wait on God for His own providence in the matter.
    I speak for myself: I will not counterattack or fight back. Moving on...

    MIlt
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    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

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    Re: 5solas.org and PristineGrace.org make Phil Johnson's bad theology page!!! Woo Hoo!!!

    Am I blind or what? I don't believe I have read "bad language" in the posts or perhaps I have just missed it?
    I also have failed to see ungodly (unscriptural) I suppose is what he means posts as well. I certainly don't agree with everyone's opinion but I think Phil has gone way overboard here and refuses to take on a group that actually does take scripture seriously. How SAD!!!

    Out for now ... Jan
    It is what it is

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    Re: 5solas.org and PristineGrace.org make Phil Johnson's bad theology page!!! Woo Hoo!!!

    Hey, at the rate we're moving from bad to really bad, Phil just might make a special category for us!
    This is my signature.

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