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Thread: Church in error?

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    Church in error?

    Has the Church, as a body, ever gone into apostasy?
    Peter

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    I guess that depends on which church you're referring to, when you say "Church".

    See, Roman Catholics see their church as THE church...

    while Protestants, or those who are not part of any denom that ever broke away from Rome, see the true Church as the body of redeemed believers who follow the Lord Jesus Christ, and Him alone.

    So maybe you should be more clear on which church you're talking about.

    And while you're at it, maybe you should give us a Biblical definition of "apostacy".
    "SOLA SCRIPTURA… GRATIA… FIDE… CHRISTUS… DEO GLORIA" Scripture alone, being our final authority, teaches us that salvation is by grace His grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for the glory of God alone.

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    I've seen that the church, more or less "as a whole" has been accused of some evil things. The Inquisitions, Crusades, Salem Withc trials.
    But even then, that was just a faction, a part of the whole body of Christ...and not the entire "body" as a whole. There were people even in those circustances that disagreed and didn't take part, and even suffered and died for that.

    As far as "gone into apostasy". I have not seen nor heard of any instances such as that.
    2 Timothy 4:2-4
    <(((><
    1 Peter 3:15
    __________________

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    There is only one church. Jesus did not found churches, he founded the Church. Has that Church ever fallen into error as a body? I'm not talking about Rome. See, this is the narrowness that Protestants have (that I once held myself as a former Protestant), thinking that Rome is the Church. THat's buying into their own claim. Read your history books people, Rome broke away from the Church roughly around 1054 (when Papal reps placed a bull of excommunication on the alter of the Church of Holy Wisdom in Constantinople during divine liturgy). They were upset that the rest of the Church did not accept her as having ultimate authority over all the Church.

    See, the Church is not divided. It is not in error. Groups have broken away from her, using her documents to claim authority and authenticity. But the Church that Jesus founded, the Apostles governed and passed into the hands of faithful men has never passed away or diverged from the original founding. She is one in doctrine.She is one in faith. She is one in practice. She is One. She is Holy. She is Catholic (universal). She is Apostolic. She is as the creed says she is and was defined in 324. She's the same Church that weeded out authentic documents from all that had been written and assembled them into the NT. She is the Church that articulated, wrote down, the explanantion of the Trinity when faced by heretical teachings. In similar fashion, she fashioned the articulation of the two natures of Christ when faced by similar heresies.

    This is an important question. Why, because if the Church that Jesus had founded, and was fisrt governed by the Apostles has ever passed away, then the gates of hell have prevailed against her and Jesus is proved to be a liar. This question is just as important as ever was faced by the seven great councils. To say the Church shifted from her original foundations even one milimeter, is a heresy as grand as saying that Jesus is a created being and is not God.

    Now, has the Church that Jesus founded ever gone into error as a body (universally), in any way?
    Peter

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    Well Peter,

    I do agree with you that there is only 1 church.

    I am redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, my salvation is secure, and I live and breathe by His grace.

    With all of that said, I do not belong to the church that:

    * bows to a man and believes him to be infallible
    * prays to dead people
    * determines who is, and who is not a saint, based on church doctrines
    * teaches that the atonement on the cross was not enough and that additional cleansing in purgatory is required
    * teaches repetitious prayers are correct, when Jesus said they were exactly what the heathen do
    * teaches that men's traditions are on equal ground with the very written Word of God

    The church I belong to, is made up of people who have been shown their sin by the Holy Spirit of God, and fell on their faces in humility before Him.

    People who love God above all else, and deny the teachings of men when they don't line up with the Word of God. (even at risk of losing their lives for doing so)

    People who struggle with their own sinfulness, and continually seek the Lord's guidance and strength to overcome, while in this putrid world.

    Has THAT church ever fell into times of error?

    YES... it has. BECAUSE it is made up of fallible men and women, who often times place their own opinions over the Word, this church does indeed fall into error.

    And because that church IS the true church, it is always reproved of it's sins, and led right back onto the correct path, that pleases God.

    Just a few thoughts...
    "SOLA SCRIPTURA… GRATIA… FIDE… CHRISTUS… DEO GLORIA" Scripture alone, being our final authority, teaches us that salvation is by grace His grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for the glory of God alone.

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    I see that you still dont understand the question. Once again you've run back to Rome. I'm not refering to Rome. So, respectfully, I retract the question.
    Peter

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    Peter,

    I understand the question just fine.

    And no, I don't run back to Rome, but it's denying reality to NOT point out the differences in the one church, compared to the other.

    Jesus did in fact establish one church, and yes,
    it has in fact fallen into times of error.
    "SOLA SCRIPTURA… GRATIA… FIDE… CHRISTUS… DEO GLORIA" Scripture alone, being our final authority, teaches us that salvation is by grace His grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for the glory of God alone.

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    AMEN! CA


    Wow Peter,
    you seem to stand in awe of this "she". This "she" church seems to be above all. "She" is this "she" is that ....

    somehow, that already sets some alarm bells ringing in my spirit.

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    The Church is God's bride. Isn't a bride a she?
    Peter

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    If then the Church as a whole has gone into error, have not the gates of hell prevailed? And again, I'm not talking about local bodies or individuals, I'm talking the Church universal. And please use specifics. This is very important to me. And I'm not trying to stir up anything. A friend of mine almost committed spiritual suicide over this.
    Peter

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    The church established by Jesus was not a universal thing but a local body of baptized believers that carries out the commission. No, this church cannot fall by the gates of hell prevailing against it. That there are churches that have fallen into error is not denied, the church at corrinth for example, but it still remained a church of christ. Christ's warning in revelation to church of having their candlestick removed, that is they no longer represent christ, but there will always be a body of His that will be true to Him and His till the end.
    landmark baptist

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    * teaches repetitious prayers are correct, when Jesus said they were exactly what the heathen do

    I need to read a bit more in this thread to catch up fully with the discussion here, but I wanted to make a point about this one statement.

    It is ridiculous and just poor biblical interpretation to compare the wriiten, repeated prayers of any church to the Jesus' condemnation of the heathen, babbling.

    First of all, ALL churches repeat their prayers, whether they do it in song (worship songs) or in spoken word form, they are repeated. You cannot tell me that your church makes up new songs on the fly every week, and that all worship is spontanious. The worship service is FAR from spontanious. They most likely "practice" the songs at some point in the week, whether there is a choir or a band. The same songs are often repeated in order for the congregation to learn them and make them the worship/prayer of their heart. If you hold to this understanding of Christ's rebuke to the heathens prayer, then you cannot justify the practice of repeating the songs during worship. Is not worship prayer also?

    Christ told us how we are to pray when he said "When you pray, pray like this..." then taught the Lord's Prayer. Do you not learn the Lord's Prayer and pray it, or teach it to your children in Sunday school? If so, are you a heathen, babbling on the street corner? No, you have simply made the prayer, a prayer of your heart. You have conformed your prayerful heart to the words of this repeated prayer.

    So, if someone would care to explain why it is wrong to repeat a prayer outside of what i have just stated, please do.


    †Laika
    ¤Voici mon secret. Il est tres simple: on ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur.
    L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux.¤


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    Also...

    just to add.

    If in fact Christ did PROMISE that the Holy Spirit would lead the church into ALL TRUTH as Scripture says, then how can "she" ( I know how much you love that Pronoun) haved errored at anytime? Did Christ lie? Did the Holy Spirit lead the church into error?

    Yes, I agree that individuals and even LARGE groups of individuals have errored and even gone apostate, but has the entire church, universal? Has the Bride of Christ fallen into error? Or will He truly come to claim her, a blamless bride like He promised?
    ¤Voici mon secret. Il est tres simple: on ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur.
    L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux.¤


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    Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

    John Gill:

    But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions:

    Saying the same things over and over again

    as the Heathens do:

    as the worshippers of Baal, from morning till noon, #1Ki 18:26. This our Lord observes, to dissuade from such practices, because the Gentiles, who were odious to the Jews, used them, and the Jews were guilty of the same; had they not, there would not have been any need of such advice:

    for they think they shall be heard for their much speaking:
    as did the Jews, who, under pretence of "long prayers", devoured widows' houses; and with whom it is an axiom, that "everyone, that multiplies prayer is heard"; and whoever prolongs his prayer, his prayer does not return empty; and he that is long in prayer, his days are prolonged: and, according to their canons, every day a man ought to pray eighteen prayers.

    Moreover, their prayer books abound in tautologies, and in expressing the same things in different words, and by a multiplicity of them.
    ______________________

    Repetitious prayer such as this, not only means nothing to God, but is strictly condemned by Jesus as a practice of the heathens.

    This, is what I meant when I made the comment that I do not belong to a church that teaches it's members to pray this way. I hope I've made my point clear.
    "SOLA SCRIPTURA… GRATIA… FIDE… CHRISTUS… DEO GLORIA" Scripture alone, being our final authority, teaches us that salvation is by grace His grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for the glory of God alone.

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    But you haven't made your point clear. You haven't even addressed my comments on worship music...is this not also "Prayer"? Do you not sing the same songs over and over? Probably you do, yet this does not make you like the heathen.

    The point of this verse is not to condemn repetitious prayer as much as it is to condemn praying like heathens. If you study the context, you'll see that the common pagan practice of the time was to in fact say the same thing over and over in a mantra form, much like it is today. i.e. the Buddhists and Hindus.

    Christ was NOT condemning repeated prayers, otherwise he would have been condemning the very practice he participated in as a practicing Jew. It was and still is Jewish practice to pray and chant or sing the Psalms in the temples and synogogues, and to reapeat certain prayers every time they met, ate or commenced anything.

    If you PERSONALLY do not like or appreciate the practice of repeated prayer then by all means do not participate, but to say that it is unbiblical is incorrect.

    What do you think that the Psalms were used for?


    Besides, Christ specifically says "VAIN repetition" which implys something being said without meaning, or without substance. Like someone repeating something that is not from the heart, but rather out of duty or in VAIN. How can you judge whether someone is doing this. If I pray every day, all day: "Lord have mercy on me." How can you say that I do not mean it everytime I say it?

    ¤ Laika
    ¤Voici mon secret. Il est tres simple: on ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur.
    L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux.¤


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    Hey, I thought the question was "has the church as a body ever gone into apostasy". If the church has then to trust any of the promises of Christ, inclucing eternal life, is mute and cannot be relied upon. For He said that the gates of hell shall never prevail against it. Perhaps a better defination of what the church is should be answered before analllyzing its ability to endure to the end.
    landmark baptist

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    apostacy

    No the church ,or body of christ has never went into total apostacy,if you will read the first four chapters of revelation you will get an accurate history of the church,wich has recieved a few warnings,only the seventh church will go into total apostacy and be spewed out,this occurs shortly after the rapture of gods children out of the church.

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    <steven>

    By your post I think you must be dispensationist. The church at Loadicea does not represent a period in church history but a real church that John was warning before the tribulation. To believe it represents a period of history would mean that Christ could not have come until that churches period in history concluded say about 1750ad or so. This belief destroyes the pretrib doctrin of eminency.
    landmark baptist

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    Steven

    Hi robert higgins

    Robert of course this was adressed to the church at laodecia.The letters also give a very accurate view of church history through its stages,from the apostollic church to the apostate church.I for the life of me cannot see how this in any way would affect dispensationalism,nor do I see any way that it would affect the pretrib rapture.

    robert higgins why dont you do your best to show me what you are thinking so that i might get a handle on it.

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    But we digress from this thread.

    Some say that the answer is yes. Would you provide one, and only one, "for example", say from the time the Church was founded, the apostles still living, and 150 A.D.

    (Bear with me your honor, this is relevant)

    Oh, and use scripture to back up the apostacy. Thanks.

    Not that I want you to prove the apostacy correct by scripture....oh, you know what I mean. Show me from scripture why it was an apostacy. There. Whew!

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