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Thread: A question about the salvation of Infant who die

  1. #21
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    Re: A question about the salvation of Infant who die

    Ray,

    I do not see how our exchange on this subject has anything to do with the controversy with the Remonstrants. We are in full agreement on that. I have already confessed elsewhere that all the 5-points of Dort ARE a form of unity (in addition to all the basic doctrines of Christianity)! Our dispute is over the implications of the fundamental gospel to OTHER external practices and doctrines that are deemed fundamental by many. There is no way that one's view of water administration (or day-observance, tithing, church government, politics, and other doctrines not settled by the Reformation) can be equated with loyalty to the fundamentals of the 5-points.

    1. Do you acknowledge the doctrine contained in the Old and New Testaments and in the Articles of the Christian faith and taught here in this Christian Church to be the true and complete doctrine of salvation?
    2. Have you resolved by the grace of God to adhere to this doctrine; to reject all heresies repugnant thereto and to lead a new, godly life?

    3. Will you submit to church government, and in case you should be delinquent (which may God graciously forbid) to church discipline?


    My controversy with the PCA and ultimate renunciation of membership was based on how this type of questions are to be interpreted. The local Session changed from times past and interpreted this to mean loyalty to ALL the interpretations of the Session regarding the WCF--which was entirely different than what I was told when I accepted membership.

    If all of these details of the 3 'forms of unity' and the WCF and catechisms are made into issues as important as the gospel, I have no doubt that God will doom every single one of their denominations to the same fate as their mothers who apostatized into skepticism. Without the pouring out of the old stinking wine of useless tradition (the hedging of the gospel with excess baggage distorting its glory), the new wine of the gospel will never bring about a new reformation.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  2. #22
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    Re: A question about the salvation of Infant who die

    Quote Originally Posted by BillTwisse
    Ray,


    1. Do you acknowledge the doctrine contained in the Old and New Testaments and in the Articles of the Christian faith and taught here in this Christian Church to be the true and complete doctrine of salvation?
    2. Have you resolved by the grace of God to adhere to this doctrine; to reject all heresies repugnant thereto and to lead a new, godly life?

    3. Will you submit to church government, and in case you should be delinquent (which may God graciously forbid) to church discipline?


    My controversy with the PCA and ultimate renunciation of membership was based on how this type of questions are to be interpreted. The local Session changed from times past and interpreted this to mean loyalty to ALL the interpretations of the Session regarding the WCF--which was entirely different than what I was told when I accepted membership.

    If all of these details of the 3 'forms of unity' and the WCF and catechisms are made into issues as important as the gospel, I have no doubt that God will doom every single one of their denominations to the same fate as their mothers who apostatized into skepticism. Without the pouring out of the old stinking wine of useless tradition (the hedging of the gospel with excess baggage distorting its glory), the new wine of the gospel will never bring about a new reformation.
    Okay Bill, I can see that. Church history proves that. Yes we have to be careful traditions do not trump Scripture, but that being said the church consistory has to give account for it's members concerning life and doctrine. If one does not go to church, how is that one going to be accountable? He is a law unto himself then and we cannot have that either.

    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

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    Re: A question about the salvation of Infant who die

    BillTwisse:

    I'm kind of surprised to hear that. As far as I understood the PCA as most Presbyterian churches did not require its members to subscribe to its confessional statements but only the elders and deacons (as opposed to the reformed churches who require the members to subscribe to the confessions as well). This was even preached about when I was a member of the PCA church in IL, saying that you don't need to believe in Calvinism or infant baptism to be a member.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: A question about the salvation of Infant who die

    With the ascendency of reconstructionism and the New Perspective, things they are a changin'. The issue involved was not subscription to the bare confession but submission to the interpretations of doctrine and life as mediated by the local Session. Although in the beginning most will say "you don't have to believe this or that to be a member," in the end it all boils down to whether one honors the elders by submitting to their teachings on doctrine and life. Dissent is not permitted. I believe this is the rule today, not the exception.

    If one does not go to church, how is that one going to be accountable? He is a law unto himself then and we cannot have that either.

    To ultimately know many truths of scripture apart from human distortion, you cannot depend on others. You have to depend on the Spirit's personal leading in the power of the Word studied over and over and over and over and over again. Every sectarian leader, by obvious definition, wants you to accept all of his views and will bend scripture however necessary to fit them.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: A question about the salvation of Infant who die

    Quote Originally Posted by BillTwisse
    With the ascendency of reconstructionism and the New Perspective, things they are a changin'.
    True Bill. But that would be due to a lack of the reformed church in disciplining these folks in their contrary doctrine.

    The issue involved was not subscription to the bare confession but submission to the interpretations of doctrine and life as mediated by the local Session. Although in the beginning most will say "you don't have to believe this or that to be a member," in the end it all boils down to whether one honors the elders by submitting to their teachings on doctrine and life. Dissent is not permitted. I believe this is the rule today, not the exception.
    That would show a lack of adherence to the church order of that denomination by the office bearers if they are in contradiction to that which they confess and the denomination they rule as undershepherds in. For things to be done decently and in good order, the interpretations of the local session or consistory ought to be in accord with the church order and confession.If the truth is prostituted, then appeal can be made to both the classis or synod. We are taught in Scripture to honor those in authority as those who will have to render an account to Christ, not because of them. Point well taken.


    If one does not go to church, how is that one going to be accountable? He is a law unto himself then and we cannot have that either.

    To ultimately know many truths of scripture apart from human distortion, you cannot depend on others. You have to depend on the Spirit's personal leading in the power of the Word studied over and over and over and over and over again. Every sectarian leader, by obvious definition, wants you to accept all of his views and will bend scripture however necessary to fit them.
    True Bill, but we can and should go to others on matters for the sake of clarity and establish truth by the counsel of fellow saints. Consider the following

    Acts 15



    1And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

    2When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

    3And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

    4And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

    5But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

    6And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

    7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

    8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

    9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

    10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

    11But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

    12Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

    13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

    14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

    15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

    16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

    17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

    18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

    19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

    20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

    21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

    22Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

    23And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

    24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

    25It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

    26Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

    28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

    29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

    30So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:

    31Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.

    32And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.

    33And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles.

    34Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still.

    35Paul also and Barnabas continued in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.

    36And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the LORD, and see how they do.

    37And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.

    38But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.

    39And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;

    40And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God. 41And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.

    Seems Paul and Barnabas had a bit of a spat Regardless, this was the determinate counsel of God , that it should be so and the subsequent events that took place after.

    From your spatting brother
    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

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    Re: A question about the salvation of Infant who die

    Ray, three things:

    1. I always believe that the counsel of other believers and great teachers of the past should be sought. The 'flip side' is my point--there will be matters at some point in our lives where we have to stand alone in the Lord's guidance. We have no apostles with us today--only their written testimony.

    2. With reconstructionism, ecclesiastical power and abuse of it is on the INCREASE, not decrease. It moves toward the Papal view of authority, organization, and mentors (all must depend on and submit to on a mentor in matters of faith and life). Appeal to the higher levels of church government in the midst of such abuse means NOTHING WHATSOEVER, no matter how great the sin of the leaders.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: A question about the salvation of Infant who die

    Quote Originally Posted by BillTwisse
    Ray, three things:

    1. I always believe that the counsel of other believers and great teachers of the past should be sought. The 'flip side' is my point--there will be matters at some point in our lives where we have to stand alone in the Lord's guidance. We have no apostles with us today--only their written testimony.


    From my understanding, God's word is the only authority. Why turn to counsels of other's? Who is to be considered great teachers of the past, other than the apostles.

    Don't we still have apostles today?

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