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Thread: Habemus Papum

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    Habemus Papum

    In the latest issue of Christian Renewal there is an article by Dr. Peter Jones (professor at Westminster West and author of books on paganism) called Habemus Papum. He tells about how he met with Cardinal Ratzinger (the recently elected pope) in 1988. Ratzinger talked about how he wished the Catholic church had as good of a seminary as Westminster and made some other interesting comments but I found the following part the most interesting.

    In the first hour, in fluent French, he gave a magnificent overview of the state of theology and of the dangers of German liberal theology in particular. His critique of Bultmann was superb. We Protestants then took an hour to present the case for orthodox Protestant theology. Cardinal Ratzinger listened with rapt attention. Our time together was not a casual, nor perfunctory "audience," but a genuine theological exchange. I was impressed by his intellect, by his linguistic ability (fluency in at least five languages), by his theological wisdom and by his openness to biblical theology. As we left, we gave him a bound copy of Calvin's Institutes, and he graciously accepted my article on the apostle Paul as the last apostle. Clearly my article did not change his mind about the papacy, but I have it on good authority that he has been reading the copy of Calvin's Institutes.
    Not that I'm going to hold my breath, but I just wonder what would happen if a pope became a Calvinist and began spreading Calvinist teaching. In the 17th Century in the Eastern Orthodox Church the patriarch of Constantinople began spreading Calvinism and even issued a confession and they condemned his teachings after his death. Could they do the same thing in the Roman Catholic Church or would the teaching have to remain based upon their doctrine of the pope?
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Habemus Papum

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar
    In the latest issue of Christian Renewal there is an article by Dr. Peter Jones (professor at Westminster West and author of books on paganism) called Habemus Papum. He tells about how he met with Cardinal Ratzinger (the recently elected pope) in 1988. Ratzinger talked about how he wished the Catholic church had as good of a seminary as Westminster and made some other interesting comments but I found the following part the most interesting.



    Not that I'm going to hold my breath, but I just wonder what would happen if a pope became a Calvinist and began spreading Calvinist teaching. In the 17th Century in the Eastern Orthodox Church the patriarch of Constantinople began spreading Calvinism and even issued a confession and they condemned his teachings after his death. Could they do the same thing in the Roman Catholic Church or would the teaching have to remain based upon their doctrine of the pope?
    A very interesting question W.B.!

    I have some information from some RCC people I met that if the RCC "ever had a theologian" Ratzinger is THE one. That reminds me of that "to whom much is given much shall be required" and if we put this in context of "knowledge" (to whom too much knowledge is "given/required relationship...") this man has a tremendous responsibility on his back. These Catholics who mentioned to me Mr. Ratzinger theological knowledge said that "his theological knowledge is so well respected that if he says the Protestants have always been right there will be a lot of Catholics that will accept it..."

    I would not like to be in Mr. Ratzinger shoes but I am not holding my breath either... but I believe God has astounded us before with His Sovereignty.

    Milt
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    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

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    Re: Habemus Papum

    Very interesting, Milt and Charles!

    I don't know. If Pope Benedict the sixteenth (Joe Ratzinger) is ACTUALLY the theologian which John Paul II was not (John Paul II's real name was published in the latest New Focus magazine--I don't remember it)--that is well and good. But we all know that 'Uncle Joe' (I'm borrowing Roosevelt's description of Joe Stalin) will never defend the true gospel, don't we? Gospel language is not the gospel. If Joe loves the gospel he will release all historical documents in the Vatican related to that same gospel. THAT IS THE TEST, when it comes to Papal conformity to the truth. We KNOW that they hold more historical evidence than exists anywhere else. That was proved when the Vatican released it's biblical manuscripts early in the 20th century that had been suppressed for at least 1500 years! The Vatican only did this because of the overwhelming evidence of archeological diggings! So their authorities were forced to acknowledge that the Vatican manuscripts of many centuries were not the mainstay of biblical authority.

    Joe, give us the documents in your vaults! The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls revealed more evidence of the truth than anything imaginable. This is not because the weird and dangerous ideas of the later sons of the Teacher of Righteousness loved the truth, but rather because we now know the original teachings of that same teacher. I fully believe that the Papacy has the documents discovered at Qumran and can 'fill in the blanks' of the worn out text. They also have many early Christian documents which contradict the teachings of the so-called 'Fathers.' So let us SEE THEM!
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Habemus Papum

    Bob, very good about Uncle Joe!

    If Ratzinger believes in the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and the whole counsel of God, he could not live with the abominable idolatry of the RCC for a single hour.

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    Re: Habemus Papum

    Quote Originally Posted by BillTwisse
    Very interesting, Milt and Charles!


    Joe, give us the documents in your vaults! The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls revealed more evidence of the truth than anything imaginable. This is not because the weird and dangerous ideas of the later sons of the Teacher of Righteousness loved the truth, but rather because we now know the original teachings of that same teacher. I fully believe that the Papacy has the documents discovered at Qumran and can 'fill in the blanks' of the worn out text. They also have many early Christian documents which contradict the teachings of the so-called 'Fathers.' So let us SEE THEM!
    Yes , that would be quite a thing now would it not. I find this fact interesting, that the RC would knowingly hold back documents with respect to church history. I was not even aware of this until I read Schaff's history of the Christian Church.

    Has the reformed church been so secretive in regards to the writings of the Reformers throughout church history in this regard?
    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

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    Re: Habemus Papum

    Dear Saints:

    I am as Abraham: "...believed in hope against hope..." Romans 4:18

    The day that I lose hope that God can find anybody in their way to Damascus with letters of permission to kill God's own, breathing threats, then I lost sight of the Gospel!

    "...For men it is impossible, but to God ALL things are possible..." Matthew 19:26.

    This misquoted and adulterated scripture was the answer Jesus gave to the disciples when they asked: "...Who then can be saved..."

    We should never lose sight of the plan and power of God to save even a murderer as Paul who persecuted Jesus.

    Joe Ratzinger and Kairol Voitilla (the second one the name of John Paul II) were men who had more exposure to the truth, the same truth their organization chose to hide, more often than any of us can imagine! They chose to maintain the lie of tradition, they forced an equivalency of traditon and the Bible upon their blind followers, they kept the system that killed the saints and preserved the whorish aspect of their sect. However, it is not a far shot to HOPE against hope that one day God will drop them off their horses, cause them to be blind and irresistably cry out: "...what you have me to do Lord..."

    If that ever happens, I want to be Ananias...

    My humble point only...

    Milt
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

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    Re: Habemus Papum

    Quote Originally Posted by GraceAmbassador
    Dear Saints:

    I am as Abraham: "...believed in hope against hope..." Romans 4:18

    The day that I lose hope that God can find anybody in their way to Damascus with letters of permission to kill God's own, breathing threats, then I lost sight of the Gospel!

    "...For men it is impossible, but to God ALL things are possible..." Matthew 19:26.

    This misquoted and adulterated scripture was the answer Jesus gave to the disciples when they asked: "...Who then can be saved..."


    If that ever happens, I want to be Ananias...

    My humble point only...

    Milt
    Then we could send a formal invitation to join us here at 5 solas
    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

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    Re: Habemus Papum

    I agree with you Milt, of course! I think we all agree that if such a miracle happened, Joe would immediately step down from the Vatican throne (after, I hope, opening the vaults!) My hope is that the Lord will cause him to release the historical information out of curiosity even if he remains unsaved.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Habemus Papum

    Quote Originally Posted by BillTwisse
    I agree with you Milt, of course! I think we all agree that if such a miracle happened, Joe would immediately step down from the Vatican throne (after, I hope, opening the vaults!) My hope is that the Lord will cause him to release the historical information out of curiosity even if he remains unsaved.
    Bob, I agreed with you! My comparison with Paul in my post above is that Saul, the murderer, while still Saul was a very good theologian! When he was miraculously saved by God he did what you are suggesting that Joe would do : "He showed the documents!" That means, he used his knowledge of the Old Testament, and used this document to preach that which it spoke about: Jesus Christ and His Grace!

    Last time a good theologian opened up his "vault" and showed his documents, we received what we call today "The Revelation of Grace - The Mystery that was HIDDEN through the ages: Christ in us the Hope of Glory."

    I wish Joe would be able to do the same although we agree that when Paul opened up his theological "vault" the ultimate Revelation was given and there is no more revelation to be given. We can only expect and hope that if Joe opens his "vault" others will see exactly what Paul meant by Grace Alone...

    Thanks!

    Milt
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

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    Re: Habemus Papum

    Hey! Keep your vault to yourself, nobody wants to see your documents
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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