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Thread: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

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    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    May I just add a few thoughts to this interesting discussion? I haven't had time to read the whole thread but I do check 'new posts' at times and noticed the truth of Christ's faith had come up. This is a truth in which I am in much agreement with Harald and Ivor on and just wanted to make a few comments.

    Luba writes…

    Quote Originally Posted by L-Today
    What are we supposed to do, for example, with those who turn the OBJECT of the GOSPEL into someone or something else by their erroneous writings? What remains of the Good News then? And who are these good news about, and why are they good at all since they are no longer about the Intended and Begotten by God OBJECT? Why are we even bothering with some faith if the object of this faith is gone? Faith in whom?
    Quote Originally Posted by L-Today

    What I am saying is: according to my Biblical understanding, people like John Gill, Robert Hawker and many others, held very erroneous views on Jesus Christ being made into a literal abomination. To tell you the truth, this notion hurts me plenty, for I know it is a lie. Nevertheless, even if I see that the Blessed Gospel of our Lord Jesus disappears in this error, I believe with all my heart that the saints like Gill and others were created and lived on this earth for the overall good use to our Lord's cause, and that they made their errors not by aiming to harm Jesus Christ's image but (maybe) because they did not consider the consequences of ''made sin'' literal interpretation. And the same about today's saints who absorb Gill's and others' teachings WHOLESALE - they do not think of the terrible consequences of their beliefs, but I trust wholeheartedly that they do not set out to cause harm to our Lord's Holy Name.



    [Some] believe also in another error that I utterly reject - the ''faith of Christ'', yes, meaning that Christ needed to have this faith in God, albeit his was stronger than ours - with the logically following horrendous implications and applications of this lie.

    These are strong words indeed Luba.

    Nevertheless I just wanted to say that whilst I am much in agreement with men of God such as Hawker, Gill, Fortner and Luther regarding Christ’s substitutionary work at the cross I’m nevertheless not one who absorbs “Gill's and others' teachings WHOLESALE”. As with any writings of men I read them, comparing what they write with scripture and seeking the Spirit’s guidance to put His seal upon that which is of God, and to reject that which is of man. We must compare the writings of men with God’s infallible word and judge their words accordingly. Truly, I have no ability in myself to make such judgments but cast myself entirely upon the Lord’s guidance. I believe HIM to be a sure guide. As HE teaches, so I speak.

    In this respect I think others here such as Harald and Ivor would be in full agreement. I doubt that there are actually many on this forum who absorb the writings of Gill wholesale for that matter…

    One thing that does interest me is the fact that you criticise Gill, Hawker and others here regarding their understanding of Christ being ‘made sin’ then go on to defend Luther and Calvin. I find that interesting because I believe Luther to actually be one of the clearest writers regarding the substitutionary work of Christ with respect to His being ‘made sin’ for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. Don Fortner quotes Luther as follows:-

    “And this no doubt all the prophets did foresee in spirit, that Christ should become the greatest transgressor, murderer, adulterer, thief, rebel, blasphemer, that ever was or could be in the world. For he, being made a sacrifice for the sins of (his elect throughout) the whole world, is not now an innocent person and without sins; but a sinner who has and carries the sin of Paul, who was a blasphemer, an oppressor, and a persecutor; of Peter, who denied Christ; of David, who was an adulterer, a murderer, and caused the Gentiles to blaspheme the name of the Lord; and, briefly, who hath and bore all the sins of all men in his body: not that he himself committed them, but for that he received them, being committed or done of us, and laid them upon his own body, that he might make satisfaction for them with his own blood.

    Therefore, this general sentence of Moses comprehends him also, (albeit in his own person he was innocent,) because it found him amongst sinners and transgressors; like as the magistrate takes him for a thief, and punishes him, whom he finds among other thieves and transgressors, though he never committed any thing worthy of death. When the law, therefore, found him among thieves, it condemned and killed him as a thief.

    If you deny him to be a sinner and accursed, deny also that he was crucified and was dead. But if it be not absurd to confess and believe that Christ was crucified between two thieves, then it is not absurd to say that he was accursed, and of all sinners the greatest.

    God, our most merciful Father, sent his only Son into the world, and laid upon him all the sins of all (his elect), saying, You be Peter, that denier; Paul, that persecutor, blasphemer, and cruel oppressor; David, that adulterer; that sinner who did eat the apple in Paradise; that thief who hung upon the cross; and, briefly, you be the person who has committed all the sins of all (my people). See, therefore, that you pay and satisfy for them.”

    Martin Luther (words in brackets inserted by Don Fortner for clarity)


    Quote Originally Posted by L-Today
    Ivor,
    Quote Originally Posted by L-Today

    Do you mean the faith which Christ had in God - on the cross during three hours of darkness? Now, do you mean the faith of his divine nature - the second Person had faith in the first Person of the Trinity? If not the faith of his divine nature, then please explain how Christ's human nature could have faith if this nature was turned into a mass of sin? Does the Righteousness of God come from SIN?

    Luba asks some good and thoughtful question here. Let me ask some in return…

    Did Christ endure the cross by faith? I answer, Yes. Hebrews 12:2.

    Was He made sin at the cross during those hours of darkness? Yes. 2 Corinthians 5:21.

    Did He have faith whilst made sin in his humanity? Yes.

    How? Well consider the situation with believers…

    Do we have sin in our humanity? Yes, our nature is fallen in sin and total depravity.

    Yet, do we who are children of God have faith in God? Yes.

    Despite having a sinful old nature? Yes.

    …for faith is the fruit of the Spirit, the work of God in us. God brings forth fruit in us, even whilst still having sin in our fallen nature. He brings forth the “obedience of faith”. He brings forth “works of faith”. He brings forth fruit such as “love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance”.

    What!? Despite us having sin in our flesh? Yes. Despite that. God does mighty things by His power in His people. In their bodies here on this sinful earth they exercise faith, God given faith. In their bodies they love the brethren, they love God. They are kind, joyful, peaceful, gentle, good, meek, temperate. Is this THEIR work? No, it is the work of God in them, for what is impossible with man is possible with God.

    What sort of work is this that God does in His people? A GRACIOUS work. It is ALL OF GRACE. God causes His people, though sinful in themselves, to live by faith! To look unto the Saviour. To worship Him in Spirit and in truth. For “this is the work of God that ye should believe”. And it is in such sinners as us that Christ is pleased to dwell by His Spirit. Yes! God dwells in us. Oh, wondrous truth!

    So, if God can cause such vile wretches as us to live by faith, to submit to His will, to follow Him, to love Him, even despite the sinful flesh which remains in us, is it a thing incredible, that Christ the SON OF GOD, GOD HIMSELF, should have true faith, unwavering faith in His Father at the cross even whilst made sin in His humanity, even whilst bearing the sins of His people in His body on the tree?

    If God can work faith in sinners such as us, is it so incredible that GOD THE ETERNAL SON, ever a divine person, should be able to exercise faith in the Father in His human body during His hours of suffering at the cross? I think not. For the Bible plainly teaches that He “despised the shame”, He “endured the cross” (Hebrews 12:2) for the joy set before Him. Despite the fact that God laid upon Him the sins of the elect, that He made Him sin, that He offered His soul up as an offering for sin, that He poured out the vials of His Holy Wrath against sin upon His own Son and consumed the sacrifice, that He beat Him and bruised Him to the point where the Son cried out “My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?” Despite ALL that, Jesus ENDURED the cross. How? By Faith.

    “Looking unto Jesus the author [captain, chief] and finisher [end, object] of faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” Hebrews 12:2.

    “How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” Hebrews 9:14, 28

    Luba also asks “Does the Righteousness of God come from SIN?”

    No, it doesn’t Luba. But at the cross the righteousness of God met sin in the Saviour at the tree, when God transferred our sin to our Subsititute, and judged it completely, condemned it in His flesh and took it away, that there would be no more sin either in the Saviour by substitution, or in us as united to Him. Thus all that remains is the righteousness of God in Christ and God’s justice and wrath is at peace with that – it finds nothing more to judge. God is well pleased with His Son, and us in Him. We become the righteousness of God in Him. (Romans 3:22, 6:6, Romans 8:3, 2 Corinthians 5:21).

    “But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believeth: for there is no difference.” Romans 3:21-22

    “He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
    Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

    Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    Who shall separate us from the love of God?...” Romans 8:31-35ff


    What happens to people who do not know this teaching that you believe in? Are they perishing? Does one's salvation depend on this belief? What if a person simply believes as the Bible teaches - that Christ Himself is our Righteousness - because Christ (not His faith) is the same yesterday, today and forever - Righteous, and as such lived and died for us? How does this belief that it is Christ's faith and not He Himself who is the Righteousness of God for us help to see our Lord Jesus clearer - how is God and His Christ glorified by this theory?

    Who has written that Christ’s faith itself is the righteousness of God? Harald? Ivor?

    I won’t speak for them but I believe that Christ MANIFESTED (revealed) the righteousness of God BY His faith. That doesn’t make His faith to be the righteousness of God itself, although that righteousness is certainly characterised by faith, hence it is also called in Romans 10 the ‘righteousness of faith’. Faith is indeed a quality of that righteousness.

    The Bible teaches both the faith of Christ HIMSELF and the faith which God gives us to believe in Him. See Romans 1:17, Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16, 2:20, Romans 10:9, Galatians 5:6, 5:22, Ephesians 2:8, Hebrews 10:38-12:3. Both are truths, both essential and I wouldn’t seek to minimise either truth.

    We BELIEVE (by God given faith) in a whole Christ who is the fullness of God. We believe in His wisdom, His righteousness, His redemption, His sanctification (1 Cor. 1:30). We believe in His love (Romans 5:8), and in justification by His blood (Romans 5:9). We believe in His faith as the Just One who lived by faith (Romans 1:17, Galatians 2:11, Hebrews 10:38, Hebrews 12:2, Revelation 14:12) and we don’t deny that faith (Revelation 2:13). We believe He is the way, the truth and the life (John 14:6). We believe He is light (1 John 1:5). We believe He is the Word of God and we believe in His name (John 1:1, Revelation 2:8). We believe He is the eternal Son of God, He is co-equal with the Father, He created the heavens and the earth, and He took on human flesh in order to condemn sin in that flesh (Hebrews 1-2, Romans 8:3). All these aspects of the Lord Jesus Christ and MORE we believe and confess, and trust that He is the fullness of God and that He dwells within us, His people, and we confess Him to be our ALL in ALL.

    Yes, Christ is more than just His faith, and we would never call upon someone to believe in the faith of Christ alone for Salvation, but to call upon the name of the Lord to be saved (Romans 10:13). Believe the ‘word of faith’, for “if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” Romans 10:9-10

    Yes, we preach Christ, ALL of Him, in His Gospel. But I believe one aspect of Christ is that He was the ‘Just One’. And the ‘just shall live by faith’. I wouldn’t deny his faith, any more than I’d deny His Son-ship, His divinity, His humanity, His eternal life, or His righteousness. For without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God, and "what is not of faith is sin". Yet Jesus pleased His Father in all that He did. Hence the Just One lived by faith. And we follow our ‘Captain’ by faith, as He is the ‘Chief’ and the ‘end’ of faith (Hebrews 12:2). My confession with the mouth of the Lord Jesus unto salvation, my belief from my heart unto righteousness, is that Christ lived by faith and revealed the righteousness of God by faith, unto my faith (which God gave me).

    What did Jesus do by faith? Read Hebrews 10:38 through to Hebrews 12:3. There’s our example, Christ, at the summit of the mountain which we start to climb in Hebrews 10:38. “The just shall live by faith”. Who are just? Well, such as Abel (Hebrews 11:4), Enoch (11:5), Noah (11:7), Abraham (11:8), Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jepthae, David, Samuel, the prophets, and many others of that great cloud of witnesses (12:1) who ran the race set before them, following after their forerunner, the object of their faith, “looking unto Jesus the author [captain, chief] and finisher [end, object] of faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” Hebrews 12:2.

    Yes, Jesus, the Just One, lived by faith, just as His BRETHREN and SISTERS who follow Him do likewise. They look to Him, their Head, as He looked to the Father, His Head, by faith (1 Corinthians 11:3). They please God the only way He can be pleased, by faith, believing that HE IS and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him, as Christ Himself pleased God by faith, always seeking God the Father and His will, always in prayer, and always submitting to the Father in all things. God’s people have faith, the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, just as Jesus had faith, the substance of those things he hoped for and could not see as a man whilst He went to the cross and suffered there as a MAN, that is the redemption of all His people by his death and their resurrection with Him thereafter to live in eternal union with Him as His BRIDE. They endure suffering by faith as He endured suffering by faith. They have hope of resurrection as He had hope of resurrection. They endure their cross for the joy set before them, by faith, as He endured THE cross, for the joy set before HIM by faith. One day they will sit down around the throne of the Lamb of God, around Him who having done all, having taken sin away by the once and for all offering of Himself for many, God having made his soul an offering for sin (Isaiah 53:10), then sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Yes, Jesus finished the work God set Him, by faith, and having suffered so, all His people were justified and all shall be gathered in by the mighty work of the Spirit, all to worship the Lamb around the throne for ever and ever. “For he shall see the travail of His soul and be SATISFIED.” Isaiah 53:11.

    Oh! May God give us such faith to look unto Jesus the author and finisher of faith, and to believe in Him as He is, the Just One, who justified the ungodly by His death, for the just shall live by faith. May God reveal the power of God in the Gospel of Christ unto us because therein is the righteousness of God revealed FROM faith (Christ’s) to faith (ours) as it is written, THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH. Romans 1:16-17.

    Amen. May the Lord be pleased to teach us and bless us in Christ,

    In Grace,
    Ian



    (P.S. My position on the faith of Christ should be well known on here from things I have written in other threads. If any have questions regarding this please search out my prior posts for more on this great truth. )
    "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" John 1:17

    www.graceandtruthonline.com

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    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    Is there a difference between believing and faith?

    Rendering Christs faith as an actual "faithfullness" to the promise of God to Abraham, and continuing on to the cross where His faithfullness climaxed is more in line that equating faith as believing.

    Is it the "believing of Christ?" Or is it the "Faithfulness of Christ?"

    Paul streeses the Cross in his teachings in regards to where this faithfulness of Christ ultimately resulted in His death.

    Paul seems to stress this activity of Christ in which we participate in because of grace.

    1)The faithfulness of Christ referes first of all to His self sacraficial death on the cross.

    2)Jesus Christ is this new creation and holds us in His life

    3) The cross, as Christ’s saving action, is God’s action of pivsti" , God’s
    demonstration of fidelity to the promise He gave to Abraham



    The atonement is the heart of Pauls Gospel. And how are people made right with God.

    Again as I read the posts here, I do nto believe anyone is putting there trust or answering Pauls question, by saying "My faith that I created myself makes me right with God."


    Confusion hits when we equate The Faithfulness of Christ with what we experience as our faith.

    I believe both are different and distinct.

    Hebrews defines faith as "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1).

    This is mans exercising of faith, but Christ could not have had this aspect of faith.

    Instead Christ was faithfull to the covenant with the Father, and to His elect to effect salvation by His life death and resurrection.

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    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    I'm closing this thread. Maybe we can open this topic up later in a week or so after the hostilities have subsided. I would encourage all of us as individuals to apologize to one another if we think we have unfairly characterized and slandered one another.

    Brandan

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    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    Is there a difference between believing and faith?

    Rendering Christs faith as an actual "faithfullness" to the promise of God to Abraham, and continuing on to the cross where His faithfullness climaxed is more in line that equating faith as believing.

    Is it the "believing of Christ?" Or is it the "Faithfulness of Christ?"

    Paul streeses the Cross in his teachings in regards to where this faithfulness of Christ ultimately resulted in His death.

    Paul seems to stress this activity of Christ in which we participate in because of grace.

    1)The faithfulness of Christ referes first of all to His self sacraficial death on the cross.

    2)Jesus Christ is this new creation and holds us in His life

    3) The cross, as Christ’s saving action, is God’s action of pivsti" , God’s
    demonstration of fidelity to the promise He gave to Abraham



    The atonement is the heart of Pauls Gospel. And how are people made right with God.

    Again as I read the posts here, I do nto believe anyone is putting there trust or answering Pauls question, by saying "My faith that I created myself makes me right with God."


    Confusion hits when we equate The Faithfulness of Christ with what we experience as our faith.

    I believe both are different and distinct.

    Hebrews defines faith as "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1).

    This is mans exercising of faith, but Christ could not have had this aspect of faith.

    Instead Christ was faithfull to the covenant with the Father, and to His elect to effect salvation by His life death and resurrection.
    Joe and ALL:

    Galatians 2:16 and all the references posted in this closed thread speak of POSSESSION AND OWNERSHIP not APPLICATION!

    It is the faith of Christ in that Christ owns it to give it to His elect. He is the author. Just as much as the author of the book owns the rights to that book and in effect the "book", Christ owns the FAITH. Any confusion with "application" of faith causes the confusion we had in here!

    I will post a LENGTHY post when and IF this thread comes back. I am not in a hurry and feel no "call" for it. However if God permits I will post something related to "The Intervention of a Timeless (time that cannot be measured) God in the measured time"--Kairos (If I can remember correctly) versus Kronos.

    I intend to post all the examples that Arminians use and "conditionallists" use as well and also those who combat Justification in Eternity, which at prima fascia lend an impression that God was caught by surprise by some event and had to intervene.

    Just for an appetizer: God does not intervene in time to DETERMINE His decrees; God intervenes in time to EXECUTE His decrees! Or else, how could people who died before the timed event of the cross could ever be in heaven or be "justified"?

    Examples as the Tower of Babel, Ezequiah, the Birth and Death of Jesus, Jesus' miracles, Mary's intervention on Jesus' affairs, our command to pray and many other events where God stepped in the measurable time need to be considered if we are to understand Justification in Eternity. Perhaps this study will reconcile both opinions: those who see Justification from the perspective of a timeless God (me for example) and those who believe that "all saints" who died before the cross were "sleeping" waiting for the time of the cross since they had not lived before the cross, thus not being elegible for justification...", or those who believe that justification occurred only some 2000 years ago at and after the cross. (No sarcasm, I vow it to you...)

    Well, I don't want to get ahead of God' plan! I might even not post at all.

    Thanks Brandan for closing this thread for now. I will wait for God's direction.

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    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    ''In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. . .
    He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. . .
    He came unto his own, and his own received him not. . .
    And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.''

    As I was reading these blessed words of the beloved inspired apostle John, I wondered (not for the first time) why and how is it possible to get hold of two words ''made sin'' and build the whole unheard of theory around these two words. What happens to the rest of the Scriptures which prove beyond any reasonable doubt that Christ was the Holy One of God from beginning to the end? I wondered what would apostle John's reaction be if, as he stood with Mary at the Cross, a person would come up to him and say: ''By the way, John, you are looking at the heap of human abominations right now there on the Cross. Don't you know that He whom you believe to be your God and your Lord, has been turned into a REAL heaving mass of all your sins, and He is not Light any more but darkness?'' Is it likely that John would have assented to such a proposition? And Mary, mother of Jesus, and all the saved men and women who followed our Lord, what would their reaction be to this, new to them information, that their Lord was not innocent any longer but was turned into the literal mass of our vile sins in His essence? Or what would John say to such a proposition when he wrote his inspired gospel, or the epistles, or the Revelation of Jesus Christ? Or what would Peter say, or our beloved Paul who adored His Lord with his whole being even when he wrote ''made sin'' with his own hand? Did Paul actually visualize his God and his Lord turning into a heaving mass of sin?

    Is it Biblically provable that any of the apostles, disciples and all true believers in Jesus Christ at the time of the crucifixion could have viewed Him as a REAL multiple murderer, rapist, homosexual, lesbian, cannibal, child molester, thief, crook, God-hater, pagan, idol worshipper and every conceiveable abomination out of the pit of hell? Is it Biblically provable that these Christians believed that on the Cross Jesus Christ was turned into LITERAL Peter Simon and Saul of Tarsus and every other saved one together with their sins?

    Or is it Scripturally provable - very easily and without any contortions whatever - what all true children of God believed - by the revelation of God only - that their God and their Lord Jesus Christ was the innocent Lamb of God, OBVIOUSLY suffering for something He has never done, could never do, nor become nor turned into? Is it likely that they would have worshipped an abominable mass of sin and sins if they thought that this is WHAT is really and actually hanging on the Cross?

    There is Biblical evidence that many people thought that Christ Himself was guilty and deserving the pain and the shame He was getting because they did not believe that Jesus was the incarnated sinless Son of God. From their point of view, if He was suffering such horrendous abuse and humiliation and pain, there must be a good reason - He IS in Himself must be guilty, so they mocked the Lamb of God, not knowing the Light before them but confusing this Light with the darkness like themselves. Yes, of course, there were elect among the mockers, but they later became converted and believed that the innocent Jesus Christ died in their stead. Even among the pagans were people who believed at least in Christ's human innocence (for they did not believe that He is Son of God in the flesh) - like Pilate, for instance, so how could the converted people have believed that He stopped being innocent - at any time?

    Ivor, above is the answer to your question, but if you wish, I am repeating what I already wrote to make it even clearer: it is impossible for Christ to be both Christ and a sewer at the same time. So, if he was turned into a sewer, then Christ could not be on this Cross, for the place is now occupied with the sewer. It is either Christ or the sewer but not both at the same time. Why can't Christ be Christ and at the same time a sewer? Because that is what the Word of God says. Because that is the way our Creator has designed and created His universe to be - a thing cannot be another thing at the same time and in the same place. There are many miracles in the Bible, and the universe, and all in it, is held by God's miraculous Word, but in His universe things are themselves and not something else at the same time in the same space. You can read in many fairy tales, like for instance, in the Arabian Nights, about a magician turning into a pebble and another magician turning into a rooster to swallow this pebble - and it was fun to read when I was a child. But once we believe our God's Word, we leave such metamorphoses and all the unbiblical magic behind. Then, if we find nowhere in the Bible even a hint of any transmutation of one essence into another, we then cannot take ''made sin'' literally. But if we do, we MUST also belive that Christ lives in us literally and bodily instead of being at His Father's right hand, and that we, literally and bodily live in Him. We then also MUST believe in Christ being literal bread - it is not at all more far-fetched than the Lord of Glory turning into darkness and into filth. Actually, this is the least possible metamorphosis in the universe, for then it would have become a chaos - light is darkness, good is bad, holy is vile, sweet is bitter, lovingkindness is cruelty, greed is generosity, adultery is faithfulness, etc. Confusion then becomes the lord and reigns, and not Light, Clarity, Wisdom, Purity. Did I answer your question: what do I mean that ''Christ is gone'' when one believes that He stopped being Holy and Innocent Lamb of God on the Cross? If you are not satisfied with the answer, please ask again.

    Ian, you are placing our Lord Jesus on the same level with ourselves, and I am denying and rejecting legality of such a comparison utterly and totally. Christ, as Milt very wisely wrote, is the source of our faith for He is the fountain of life and all the blessings for the elect including the blessed gift of our faith. So, when the Bible speaks of ''faith of Christ'', it is either in the meaning that Milt has presented, or else ''faith of Christ'' means faithfulness of our Beloved Lord Jesus throughout His impeccable life and his - THANK YOU, LORD JESUS - impeccable death. I could hardly read your comparison of the way we, the dead and stenchy in our trespasses corpses, get our blessed faith as a gift from God, with Christ's faith - as if He was altogether like ourselves! Jesus Christ is NOT comparable to us for He was WITHOUT SIN. It might look as a minor detail to some, but this is the whole of the antithesis in this universe, and the purpose is that Light overcomes darkness, not succumbing to darkness by becoming this darkness. Christ, without sin in His flesh from the beginning to the end, is THE difference between Light and darkness, and the two are not comparable, nor are they mixable, nor interchangeable, nor are they morphable. For God is without sin and there is no darkness in Him at all, and darkness had nothing on Christ, and God is not fusable into Satan because then God becomes His own enemy and there is no God for he cancels himself. Jesus was and is God the Son, although in His flesh He was same like us. This WITHOUT SIN makes Him in-comparable to us. Christ never, not for a second, was a MERE man. The whole point of Christianity is that Christ never sinned, that He was the only Man who ever walked this earth who never sinned be it by Himself or by literally turning into sins of others. For if He sinned even for a split second in His essence, He is not the EXCEPTION any longer whom we desperately need and whom God our Blessed Father of Lights has provided for us - the only One who was never literal sin nor sins no matter what. That is why God showed us the best and the brightest of His people - Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, David, Solomon, etc, and the saints of the New Testament - they ALL FAILED the test under duress at one time or the other. All were sinners, all needed someone who is absolutely pure and sinless at any and all time to save them. Only One Man ever walked this earth - from the moment of its creation and to this earth's end - Who never sinned, not with His own sins nor with the sins of others! And especially important His purity was under the unberable duress and utterly unimaginable for us sacrifice - and He has remained pure while bearing the exact penalties due to us, and He has overcome the world - and that is His VICTORY - and ours in Him - yes, this human spotlessness of His at the Cross.

    Ian, I was not defending Luther's and Calvin's inconsistencies while criticising Gill's and Hawker's and others'. Luther and Calvin were announced unregenerate and unsaved - and I strongly disagree with such condemnations and executions as they are not only unbiblical but also dangerous. So your remark on me first criticising Robert Hawker and others for their literal ''made sin'' and then coming in defense of Luther and Calvin who made (you thought) inconsistent statements too is not about the same things. Apples and oranges. Apples were Luther's and Calvin's condemnation, and oranges were Hawker's and others' statements I disagreed with.

    Anyway, after reading Luther's quotation from Don Fortner's work which you brought in, it would be interesting to ask people who know Luther better than I do, whether they think that he could have believed in literal metamorphosis of one person into another and also into many persons. I believe too that our Lord stood in the stead of His people and therefore was counted, seen, treated and executed as a criminal, but I find it hard to imagine that there are people, and that Luther was one of them, who believe that Jesus Christ was literally turned into literal Peter Simon and into the literal multitude of His elect!

    So - who (or what) is the object of the true Christianity: was Jesus Christ really and literally the biggest criminal and the mass of sin, or was He accounted, seen and treated as such even unto death, so that the elect don't get the treatment their sins deserve according to the Law of God? The day I think that Christ was turned into a man as ourselves, or that He was turned into a real mass of sin, I'd be gone back into the Babylon and Sodom whence I was resurrected from - for there will be nothing special about Jesus Christ - He was a sinner like the rest of us only worse - literally committing every vileness of ours! May our Gracious Lord never let it happen! For my faith is so simple that a little child can understand and rejoice in: the Lamb of God, innocent Himself, suffered and was punished exactly AS IF He has committed mine and all the elect sinners' crimes! It is exactly this steady and uninterrupted (even and especially by the horrors of the Cross) HOLY PURITY of the Lamb of God in His human nature, which are my joy, hope, delight and the very life. It is this, even and especially at the Cross, SINLESSNESS of Christ's essence which is my Rock, and this Rock was never a swamp of sin although He was treated as if He was - for us.

    I hope that none of you perceive the above thoughts as an attack upon your persons. That is the way I think, talk and write, not intending any insult at all, nor being concerned over people's lack-of- or mis-understandings either, but following each of your beliefs to their Biblically logical conclusions. I appreciate that it might be at some points unpleasant to read, but it cannot be helped, for these matters are of a life-or-death magnitude. One more time - even the best of God's saints can made such mistakes when not thinking of their logical conclusions, but to persist in these mistakes when the consequences are exposed, is another matter, and I leave such believers entirely in God's hands, not thinking one evil thought of them, never condemning nor judging them.

    The question of my gender: if there was a God-loving man who could speak up these things instead of me, I'd be absolutely happy to leave this task to him. Well, such one is not around, nor do I know anyone who'd listen to what is on my heart and bring it to the forum. I am not complaining, in case someone is jumping to conclusions, not at all. I am delighted with what our Lord has given me - indeed, very much so. But I am explaining why I, a woman, had to step in, for I know my gender is a stumbling block to some people. I understand their concern, but truly I could not remain silent on these matters. So, Ian, every time you think of coming up again with Christ as a mass of sin, or with Christ as merely human, I'll be here again, fighting your views, and may our Holy and Gracious Lord help me if it is His Will.

    Luba.

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    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    Luba, the gender thing-don't sweat it.
    1. Women are equal to men in the kingdom of God in all ways.
    2. This is not an assembly meeting-you are not "teaching over men", so you can say whatever you want. We are having a dialogue, not the "Reverend Luba" hour-haha
    3. Believe me, I am not a feminist, or at least what most people think that means, but I have noticed that even within the elect regenerate(because we still sin) there is much subtle oppression of women. I see it all the time. I am sure it goes the other way on occassion too, but I see a lot of hammering on submission, submission, submission, the excellent wife, wear a hat( misinterpretation of scripture in my view), or do this or that, well yeah, the bible calls us to be in submission to our husbands-not men, husbands, but what does that really mean? Unfortunately, I see misinterpretations on this frequently. I rarely hear of a men's meeting talking about how to be a better husband-haha

    4. I pay for this place(along with my husband, of course-and recent donors), and if we the admins decided a monkey should post, then a monkey will post-just kidding Not planning on any animals posting, and you know that the forum is NOT run as a dictatorship, of course, but it is unfortunate that some may have the wrong idea of you Luba. Luba, you're not married, so you are in submission to no one. You can't even talk about a POSSIBLE submission to an elder cause the only elders you usually come in contact with are teaching heresies.......

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    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Gill
    Luba, the gender thing-don't sweat it.
    1. Women are equal to men in the kingdom of God in all ways.
    2. This is not an assembly meeting-you are not "teaching over men", so you can say whatever you want. We are having a dialogue, not the "Reverend Luba" hour-haha
    3. Believe me, I am not a feminist, or at least what most people think that means, but I have noticed that even within the elect regenerate(because we still sin) there is much subtle oppression of women. I see it all the time. I am sure it goes the other way on occassion too, but I see a lot of hammering on submission, submission, submission, the excellent wife, wear a hat( misinterpretation of scripture in my view), or do this or that, well yeah, the bible calls us to be in submission to our husbands-not men, husbands, but what does that really mean? Unfortunately, I see misinterpretations on this frequently. I rarely hear of a men's meeting talking about how to be a better husband-haha

    4. I pay for this place(along with my husband, of course-and recent donors), and if we the admins decided a monkey should post, then a monkey will post-just kidding Not planning on any animals posting, and you know that the forum is NOT run as a dictatorship, of course, but it is unfortunate that some may have the wrong idea of you Luba. Luba, you're not married, so you are in submission to no one. You can't even talk about a POSSIBLE submission to an elder cause the only elders you usually come in contact with are teaching heresies.......
    Amen Luba and Angie!

    I'm soooo sick of watching men trample all over women. Of course the feminist movement is pure evil, but women are just as much priests in the body of Christ as men! I love all my fellow siblings in Christ - including my Sisters.

    Brandan
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    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    Thanks, Angie and Brandan!

    I did not mind explaining the gender factor for them who have special sensitivities in these matters. These people are entitled to their views whether others agree with them or not. They are entiled to bring them to the public forum, but they also should be ready for others to disagree with their views. I know that me being a woman and daring to oppose some of the ''untouchables'', was a stumbling block to several people. And it seemed that it prevented them from focusing on the life-or-death matter before us.

    It is hard for me to find anything more scary than perversion of the image of Jesus Christ in any way. If Christ of the Bible is distorted and turned into someone or something else, even for a split second, not only the gospel is of no use to anyone, but the whole universe collapses. Why? For Christ is ''the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him; and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.''

    That is exactly why the universe would have collapsed if the Person of Jesus Christ was turned into anyone or anything else than the Christ of the Bible. If Christ is not Christ, then God is not God. The passage above is one of many clear revelations of Who our incarnated Savior is, and no converted child of God is at liberty to alter this image, not in a minutest detail, no matter the temptation, as the consequences could not be more dire.

    How grateful I am to our Lord for providing this deeper look at the absolute necessity of Jesus Christ's unchanging impeccability throughout His life and especially at the Cross! We don't often think nor meditate on the importance of firmly keeping the precise Biblical image of our Lord Jesus Christ. Nothing, absolutely nothing, can come before ''the way, the truth and the life'' for a Christian. How grateful I am that God has put in Anthony Lawson's heart to become disturbed by what he heard at the Conference and for giving him courage to speak up about his unease! Thank You, God Almighty, and thank you, Anthony, for this priceless opportunity. May God grant us reading of His Word Who became flesh with His eyes of wisdom.

    Luba.

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    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    "If there must be our act of believing before there be participating in Christ, then mark what will follow, those sins which were once laid upon Christ, and taken away from the elect; for they could not be laid upon him, unless they were taken from them; are, it seems, returned back again upon these believers; whereas they were charged upon Christ; he once paid the full price; upon the payment of this, there was acknowledged full satisfaction, so that those sins were once blotted out: I say, if there must be believing before there be union with, or interest in Christ, it must necessarily follow, that, till such believing, the person of that elect bears his own transgressions, is chargeable for them that are imputed unto him. But how can it stand with the glory of the redemption of Christ, that he should have all iniquity laid upon him, carrying all iniquity, like the scape-goat, into the land of forgetfulness, whither they were once carried, and they are afresh charged upon this person. Did Christ bear them away? and did he return them back again?" - Tobias Crisp
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