Pristine Grace
Page 3 of 9 FirstFirst ... 3 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 169

Thread: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

  1. #41
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    South Korea
    Posts
    134
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    Thanks Darth , for the apology . God has always loved the elect . His love is eternal . He does not change . He never hates the elect , even before their regeneration .

    It is so easy to go to extremes on this issue . To stay on target biblically is key . Robert Reymond in his systematic has some insightful remarks on the subject . He says the following in his chapter on : " The Application of the Benefits of the Cross Work of Christ " .

    ... Though they are eternally loved " according to election , " until the elect trust Christ as their Savior , they are actually " by nature children of wrath " ( Eph. 2:3 ) and are " separate from Christ ... without hope and without God in the world " ( Eph. 2:12 ) . It is only when they are brought to faith in Christ by their effectual calling that the elect actually become partakers of Christ and of the salvific blessings of his cross work . As with the nation of Israel , so all the elect , although " beloved according to election , " are God's " enemies according to the gospel " until they repent and trust his Son .

    ... the Scriptures will not permit us to believe that [ since ] God elected certain people in Christ from all eternity , they have therefore always enjoyed the fullness of his favor in history and that for them there is no transition from wrath to grace in history .

    ... through faith in Christ the sinner who was chosen " in Christ " from all eternity is actually united in Christ . This comports with the Shorter Catechism statement that " the Spirit applieth to us the redemption purchased by Christ , by working faith in us , and thereby uniting us to Christ in our effectual calling " ( Question 30 ) ...

    Union with Christ is the fountainhead from which flows the Christian's every spiritual blessing -- repentance and faith , pardon , justification , adoption , sanctification , perseverance and glorification . Chosen in Christ before the creation of the world , and in the divine mind united with Christ in his death and resurrection , the elect , in response to God's effectual call , are through God's gift of faith actually united to Christ . Their union with Christ is in no sense the effect of human causation . " The union which the elect have with Christ is the work of God's grace , whereby they are spiritually and mystically , yet really and inseparably , joined to Christ as their head and husband " ( Larger Catechism , Question 66 ) .

  2. #42
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,672
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    74
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    119
    Thanked in
    65 Posts

    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    I still am waiting for an exegesis demonstrating that "the damning wrath of God" is referred to in Eph. 2:3. FIH, you keep asserting this and I know this 'universal, common wrath of God' belief has a long-standing tradition. But God is not mentioned until verse 4--in the contrast with God's MERCY following the BUT--except in the many 'translations' that gratuitously insert 'God' into verse 3 though it is not in the Greek. 'Wrath' in the NT is both an attribute of God and of man and has different contexts, even positive (Eph. 4:26, where we are told to avoid sin in being wrathful).

    The most natural and straightforward rendering of 'wrath' in Eph. 2:3 is that it refers to the seething rage in the wicked hearts of men that all are conceived in (children of).
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  3. #43
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    South Korea
    Posts
    134
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    I agree with Benjamin Keach's view of the matter which was posted earlier by LOJ . Further , nobody can be declared right with God if he does not believe in Christ . Justification never precedes faith .

    I'll quote some things from A.W. Pink's book on justification .



    And this brings us to a point on which some eminent Calvinists have erred , or at least , have expressed themselves faultily . Some of the older theologians , when expounding this doctrine , contended for the eternal justification of the elect , affirming that God prounced them righteous before the foundation of the world , and that their justification was then actual and complete , remaining so throughout their history in time , even during the days of their unregeneracy and unbelief ; and that the only difference their faith made was in making manifest God's eternal justification in their consciences . This is a seroius mistake , resulting ( again ) from failure to distinguish between things which differ .
    As an immanent act of God's mind , in which all things ( which are to us past , present , and future ) were cognized by Him , the elect might be said to be justified from all eternity . And , as an immutable act of God's will , which cannot be frustrated , the same may may be predicated again . But as an actual , formal , historical sentence , pronounced by God upon us , not so . We must distinguish between God's looking upon the elect in the purpose of his grace , and the objects of justification lying under the sentence of the law : in the former , He loved His people with an everlasting love ( Jer. 31:3 ) ; in the latter , we were " by nature the children of wrath , even as others " ( Eph. 2:3 ) . Until they believe , every descendant of Adam is " condemned already " ( John 3:18 ) , and to be under God's condemnation is the very opposite of being justified .

    [ He quotes Thomas Goodwin ] ... " note the ' now ' in Rom . 5:9 , 11 ; 8:1 ! ... God doth judge and pronounce His elect ungodly and unjustified till they believe . "


    What is the relation of faith to justification ? Antinomians and hyper-Calvinists answer , Merely that of comfort or assurance . Their theory is that the elect were actually justified by God before the foundation of the world , and all that faith does now is to make this manifest in their conscience . This error was advocated by such men as W. Gadsby , J. Irons , James Wells , J.C. Philpot . That it originated not with these men is clear from the fact that the Puritans refuted it in their day : " By faith alone we obtain and receive the forgiveness of sins ; for notwithstanding any antecedent act of God concerning us in and for Christ , we do not actually receive a complete soul-freeing discharge until we believe " ( John Owen ) . " It is vain to say I am justified only in respect to the court of mine own conscience . The faith that Paul and the other apostles were justified by , was their believing on Christ that they might be justified ( Gal. 2:15,16 ) , and not a believing they were justified already ; and therefore it was not an act of assurance " ( T. Goodwin , vol.8 ) .


    It is not only the righteousness of Christ as imputed which justifies , but also as received ( Rom. 5:11 , 17 ) . The righteousness of Christ is not mine until I accept it as the Father's gift .



    [ Pink closes his book on justification with these words ] .


    Let it be said in conclusion that the justification of the Christian is complete the moment he truly believes in Christ ... Christians were decretively justified from all eternity : efficaciously so when Christ rose again from the dead ; actually so when they believed ; sensibly so when the Spirit bestows joyous assurance ; mainifestly so when they tread the path of obedience ; finally so at the day of judgment , when God shall sententiously, and in the presence of all created things , pronounce
    them so .

  4. #44
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,849
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    Quote Originally Posted by BillTwisse
    I still am waiting for an exegesis demonstrating that "the damning wrath of God" is referred to in Eph. 2:3. FIH, you keep asserting this and I know this 'universal, common wrath of God' belief has a long-standing tradition. But God is not mentioned until verse 4--in the contrast with God's MERCY following the BUT--except in the many 'translations' that gratuitously insert 'God' into verse 3 though it is not in the Greek. 'Wrath' in the NT is both an attribute of God and of man and has different contexts, even positive (Eph. 4:26, where we are told to avoid sin in being wrathful).

    The most natural and straightforward rendering of 'wrath' in Eph. 2:3 is that it refers to the seething rage in the wicked hearts of men that all are conceived in (children of).

    Bob, this is where exegesis becomes confusing for me. The only way to determine your understanding is to start with another presupposition in regards to what you believe about Gods love towrds His elect from eternity.

    The whole of Chapter 2 has Paul speaking to gentiles and regardless of the gymnastics that is done with verse 3, verse 12 presents bigger issues that cannot be escaped.

    12that ye were at that time apart from Christ, having been alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope, and without God, in the world;


    Now, this is as plain in the original as it is in EVEry other translation I have read. Now unless one can be apart from Christ, and yet be in eternal union, which I do not believe is possible, Paul explicitly states they were strangers, without God. So we are left with 2 options here. It does not mean what it says, or it means exactly what it says. THis was the relationship prior to the cross.


    Which coincides with Galatians 3:8.

    8and the Writing having foreseen that by faith God doth declare righteous the nations did proclaim before the good news to Abraham.

    Again, according to this the gentiles were not yet justified, not yet covenant children, not yet heirs of the Kingdom.




    Joe

  5. #45
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,830
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    147
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    93
    Thanked in
    61 Posts

    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    Quote Originally Posted by foundinhim
    I agree with Benjamin Keach's view of the matter which was posted earlier by LOJ . Further , nobody can be declared right with God if he does not believe in Christ . Justification never precedes faith.
    Wrong. Faith is only necessary for God's declaration to the sinner. But constitutively, Justification ALWAYS proceeds faith. Justification is the cause of faith. Faith is the evidence of justification. You cannot have faith preceeding justification or otherwise you would have faith being the cause of justification.

    May I suggest a wonderful book by Samuel Richardson? It's free online at http://www.5solas.org/media.php?id=576. It's called Justification by Christ Alone.

    Rom. 3:24 says, "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"

    Notice there is nothing mentioned about faith.

    Rom 4:25 says, "Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."

    When Christ was crucified on the cross, His elect were crucified with Him.

    Gal 2:20, (KJV), I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    Rom 6:6, (KJV), Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

    If our old man is crucified with Christ, that means that God saw His people as justified. But wait it gets even better!

    Rom 6:7, (KJV), For he that is dead is freed from sin.

    The elect are free from sin in Christ. - And all of this is before they are born - remember verse six says that the elect were crucified with Christ.

    Not only were the elect crucified with Christ, but they were buried with Him.

    Rom 6:4, (KJV), Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    And not only were the elect buried with Christ, but they were quickened and resurrected in Christ!

    Eph 2:5-6, (KJV), Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) (6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    All of this proceeds faith. All of this is positional. All of this is a work of God's Sovereign Grace. All of it is justification in Christ.

    If Christ was raised again for the justification of His people, and His people were resurrected with Him, then it leads me to believe that His elect were justified IN HIM!

    Eph 2:12-17, (KJV), That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh

    Hallelujah! Praise the Lord all day and night! Do you realize how wonderful this is!?!? I tell you it brings tears to my eyes and joy to my heart. Oh what sweet joy, what sweet bliss to know that MY sins were laid on Christ at the cross. That my sins were imputed to Him and that He willfully took them and the punishment that was owed to them. That His great love for me was so great that He was willing to be bruised because it pleased the Father to justify me freely by His Grace. To know that He was raised again for my Justification, and that as far as the law of God is concerned that I was raised with Him and that I was as spotless as Christ in the eyes of God at that point. Oh wow.

    If a person cannot share this experience with me and must look to their faith - their pitiful act of believing - then I pity them. And let me tell you, my faith is so weak. Oh, if I had to look to it for my justification, I would be devastated and have no assurance whatsoever. What if I had to depend on my faith for reception of justification (imputation)? Oh how awful! I would never know if I properly received it. My faith is good for one thing - and that is knowing that I am justified. It is good for me to know that I was justified in Christ by the cross - and nothing else.

    What also gives me great joy is to know that God has always seen me as justified in Christ from before the foundation of the world. That He always had His eye on me in Christ crucified and risen. Justification surely takes place in time on the cross - but from God's perspective it happened the moment He decreed it. From our perspective, it didn't happen until in time Christ actually accomplished redemption and justification. In time we experience this justification by faith alone - and nothing else.

    If anyone is reading this post and can't comprehend this - the idea that Christ's people were justified before they were born - please search the Scriptures. It's evident. It's clear. May the Holy Spirit give you illumination, Lord willing of course.

    Brandan
    This is my signature.

  6. #46
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,830
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    147
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    93
    Thanked in
    61 Posts

    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    Excerpt from Justification by Christ Alone - Samuel Richardson
    http://www.5solas.org/media.php?id=576

    God Never Hated The Persons of His Elect
    God never hated the persons of those who belong to the election of grace, he loved them before the world began, so as to choose them, although he knew what they were, and what they would do: is he so changeable, as now to hate their persons when they sin, and afterwards to love them again when they believe; God says (otherwise) I have loved them with an everlasting love, therefore with loving kindness have I drawn thee, Jer. 31:3. "I am the Lord, I change not, therefore the sons of Jacob are not consumed," Mal. 3:6. And to say that God did purpose to love them but He did not love them, is ridiculous. For God loved them as much before they believed, as he does when they believe, though it appears not.

    Before conversion men are dead, and cannot believe till God give faith, Phil. 1:29. Is conversion and faith a fruit of hatred or love? If you say, of love, for so it is, then it will follow that God did love the elect when they did work iniquity, yea before they did believe, else he would not have given them faith; therefore those, Psal. 5:5, are such as belong not to the election of grace; for the next verse says, Thou shalt destroy them: v.6. But the elect shall never be destroyed; or else the Scripture is to be understood, that persons who live in sin appear to be such as shall be destroyed. Which I grant, and when they believe and forsake such ways, it appears otherwise, that even then when they were at the worst, they were in the love of God, and ordained to life. See 2 Tim. 1:9,10; Eph. 1:4; Acts 13:48.

    Objection 12:
    All who do not believe are in a state of condemnation, yea they are condemned already, therefore they are not justified, Mark 16, John 3.

    Answer:
    We are to understand these and the like Scriptures, to speak what men are according to visible appearance, and not what men are in respect of God's eternal decree and appointment. If it be said, the Word of God is the will and mind of God, I grant it according to the true sense and meaning of it, and if it be the will of God that they shall be damned, then I say they shall never be saved, because the Lord says, "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasures," Isa. 46:10. See Acts 2:23, Heb. 6:17. Yea, and if they be "condemned already," there is no way to escape it. Also, seeing all who now believe, were sometimes unbelievers, and if it was the will of God then that they should be damned for their not believing for the Word says, "Whosoever believed not shall be damned," Mark 16:16, according to your exposition, God has or must change His will, or else all men must of necessity perish for their former unbelief. See Isa. 14:24.

    2.The elect are not under the Law, but under grace: Rom. 6:14. Therefore the Law has nothing to do to sentence and curse them, they being in Christ, Eph. 1:4. There is no condemnation to them, Rom. 8:1,33.

    Objection 13:
    The Scripture says, he shall redeem Israel, and he shall justify many; but they are not redeemed, nor justified until they believe, Psal. 130:8; Isa. 53:11.

    Answer:
    We are to consider when these and the like places were written, which was before Christ died. From hence it is, that they are most commonly expressed in the future tense, He shall, and that not only in the Old Testament but also in the New, it is said, "He shall save his people from their sins." For as yet Christ was not born, as appears, Matt. 1:20, 21. But after Christ's death, the Scriptures speak in the present tense as done, because, indeed, He had actually done it. Therefore, it is said, "We (are) sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus," Heb. 10:10. "He hath offered one sacrifice for sins for ever," v. 12. "By one offering he (hath) perfected for ever," v. 14. "Having obtained eternal redemption for us," Heb. 9:12. "So he hath loved us, and washed away our sins in his own blood," Rev. 1:5. So that it is already done. It is not now to do.

    Objection 14:
    Men are not justified until they are in Christ, and men are not in Christ until that they believe, for men are in Christ by faith. Andronicus was in Christ before Paul.

    Answer:
    The Scripture says, that "Christ dwells in our hearts by faith," but where does it say, that we are in Christ by faith? The in being in Christ, in Eph. 1:4 is by election, and not by faith. The visible Church is called Christ, and those in the visible Church are said to be in Him. This is the being in Christ that is spoken of in John 15 as appears, v. 2-4. A contrary exposition enforces falling finally from grace. In this visible Church, one is in before another, as Andronicus was.

    Also he being converted before Paul. He appeared to be in Christ before Paul did so appear. But, the being in Christ, Eph. 1:4, the elect are not in Him one before another and a third being in Christ we know not.

    Objection 15:
    The Scripture does not say that any shall be saved but such as believe, therefore faith is essential to salvation.

    Answer:
    No more do the Scripture say that any shall be saved but such as obey him: 2 Thes. 1:8, 9; Heb. 11:14, and 5:9; Prov. 28:18; Matt. 19:17, 23; John 14:23. Who can do this? It will follow by your reason that good works are absolutely necessary to salvation and perseverance to the knowledge of it, (because the Scripture says, "He that continues to the end shall be saved," Mark 13:3, as well as "he that believes shall be saved," John 3:16) and so when men have persevered to the end of their days they may know it.

    Secondly, the Scripture declares unbelief to be a sin, and that the sins of the elect shall not deprive them of the love of God nor salvation, Psal. 89:28-39 with Rom. 8:33-39. What the Lord has purchased for His, they shall enjoy in His time because "he is faithful that hath promised it," Heb. 10:23. If "we believe not, yet he abideth faithful, he cannot deny himself:" as 2 Tim. 2:13. And if "not any thing shall separate them from the love of God," unbelief shall not, Rom. 8.

    Objection 16:
    But God has decreed the means as well as the end, and faith is one of the means.

    Answer:
    1.We grant God has decreed the end and the means, and whatsoever God has decreed shall unavoidably come to pass.

    2. But we deny that faith is any means of our Redemption, Justification, or Salvation. Nothing but the Lord Jesus Christ is the means of our salvation.

    3. There are means that are necessary to the revealing and enjoying the comfort of it, as the Holy Spirit, and as Ministers to reveal it, and faith to receive it.

    4. Also there be fruits and effects of the love of God, and calling, etc., as faith, love, and our obedience to Christ, which all those who are the Lord's, prize in their place, yet these are no means of our salvation.

    Objection 17:
    Faith makes us sons, for we are the sons of God by faith: Gal. 3:26. So that application of Christ, makes Him ours.

    Answer:
    Adoption, Faith, Knowledge and Sonship

    1. By faith we know our selves to be sons of God.

    2. Faith makes us not sons, but predestination: Rom. 8:29. We were made the sons of God when we were predestinated, "Having predestinated us to the adoption of children," Eph. 1:5. By being given to Christ, we became sons, and brethren to Christ, John 17:6; Isa. 8:18; Heb. 2:13, we "were given to Christ" before Christ died. "In bringing many sons, unto glory through suffering," Heb. 2:10,11. "For he that is set apart, and they that are set apart are one, for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren.: So that adoption is acceptation of us in Christ; and our being Christ's makes us the seed, (sons) Gal. 3:29. Therefore, not our believing, for adoption is without and before our believing, Eph. 1:5, 6; Heb. 2:10. Adoption is before our redemption and comprehends all spiritual privileges, as redemption, reconciliation, justification, and glorification, Rom. 3:24 and 8:29, 30. The elect were sons before they believed; "Because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts," Gal. 4:6, unless they could believe without the Spirit, Gal. 5:22. They were sons before they believed. Because they were sons, God sent them the Spirit of His Son so that by Him they might believe and know that they were sons, both then, and before they believed.

    (Editor's Note: In the above statement we beg to differ on one point. We do not believe that adoption made us God's sons. We have always been God's sons in His Covenant, plan, purpose and mind. True, we are predestination unto the ADOPTION OF SONS, but not unto our eternal sonship. Adoption is a blessing which must come to the Elect because of their union with Jesus Christ. That means Christ was God's Son before His adoption. Did Chist's adoption make Him God's Son? If Christ were not adopted, then from Whom do we receive our adoption? Don't we have all things through our union and standing in Jesus Christ? Adoption is the manifestation and testimony of our Sonship as it concerns our PHYSICAL BODY!)

    And to say they did not appear to be Sons until they believed, is true, but to say the Elect are not one with Christ and no sons until they believe, and that believing makes them sons, is to say our believing makes Christ ours. This we cannot assent to. For this is to set faith above Christ and makes our happiness to depend not upon Christ, but upon faith, making faith give us our interest and union with Christ, so that unless we believe, Christ is not ours nor is He any puprose to us. So then Christ died for the sins of no man, or so died for men's sins, as He saved no man by His blood. And so Christ must die for us, but our faith must save us. Thus many make Christ a servant to wait and tend upon faith, and to be at the command of faith. This we may not bear.
    This is my signature.

  7. #47
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,849
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    Quote Originally Posted by foundinHim
    I agree with Benjamin Keach's view of the matter which was posted earlier by LOJ . Further , nobody can be declared right with God if he does not believe in Christ . Justification never precedes faith .

    This is not what Keach stated FIH. If you read closely, he speaks of the different aspects of justification

    "I deny not that fundamental, and representative justification of the Elect in Christ their head, or as a common Person, which is before Faith, which lies in Christ making full satisfaction for all their sins and meriting Faith for them. I also grant a federal Union of the Elect with Christ, as our Surety and blessed Sponsor, from Eternity, who also received a grant of a discharge for them from Condemnation, upon his holy Compact and Covenant with the Father, on the account of what he was to do and suffer, which made Justification and Salvation sure for them all, see 2 Tim.1:9, Tit. 1:2."

    Again BK is nto an infallible barometer, but read what he says

  8. #48
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Middleville, MI
    Posts
    3,577
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    While I do believe in justification from eternity, I believe that this doctrine can be misused to diminish the Scriptural emphasis upon subjective justification. We don't read "Faith is only...." in the Scriptures as we find in some of these posts. There are now passages in Scripture which explicitly teach eternal justification. There are passages which implicitly teach eternal justification and which by logical deduction can be shown to teach eternal justifiction but eternal justification is not emphasized by the Scriptures. We certainly find an explicit statement in regards to objective justification as it happened in time in the death and ressurection of Christ in Romans 4 but the overall emphasis of the Scriptures is upon subjective justification. We read many times that we are saved through the instrument of faith or that a person's faith has made them well. The Bible says that our faith is imputed for righteousness (Gen. 15:6; Rom. 4:5). Faith is the means by which we are engrafted into Christ and receive all of His benefits. Faith is a wonderful gift of the Holy Spirit and we ought not diminish it in any way.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

  9. #49
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,830
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    147
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    93
    Thanked in
    61 Posts

    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar
    The Bible says that our faith is imputed for righteousness (Gen. 15:6; Rom. 4:5). Faith is the means by which we are engrafted into Christ and receive all of His benefits.
    No Charles - It's implied in those passages that it is not the faith itself that is counted as righteounsess - but the object of that faith. Faith is experiential only and is one of the benefits of justification - not the "instrument" that is used to receive the benefits of justification.
    This is my signature.

  10. #50
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Middleville, MI
    Posts
    3,577
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    Could you please point me to a passage where it states that faith is experiential only? Could you provide a thorough explanation of the Eph. 2:8 where it says we are saved through faith as an instrument?
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

  11. #51
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,849
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar
    While I do believe in justification from eternity, I believe that this doctrine can be misused to diminish the Scriptural emphasis upon subjective justification. We don't read "Faith is only...." in the Scriptures as we find in some of these posts. There are now passages in Scripture which explicitly teach eternal justification. There are passages which implicitly teach eternal justification and which by logical deduction can be shown to teach eternal justifiction but eternal justification is not emphasized by the Scriptures. We certainly find an explicit statement in regards to objective justification as it happened in time in the death and ressurection of Christ in Romans 4 but the overall emphasis of the Scriptures is upon subjective justification. We read many times that we are saved through the instrument of faith or that a person's faith has made them well. The Bible says that our faith is imputed for righteousness (Gen. 15:6; Rom. 4:5). Faith is the means by which we are engrafted into Christ and receive all of His benefits. Faith is a wonderful gift of the Holy Spirit and we ought not diminish it in any way.

    Yes it is Charles, and no one is in heaven without it.

    Because some have made faith a condition, we have some who totally take it out of the picture. Perhaps the 5 solas should be named 4 solas for them.

    Faith IS a gift of God Himself. The object of that faith is faith in Christ.


    Christ spoke about Faith continuously without clarifying it. It is simply a gift of God and a grand Gift it is. Without faith it is impossible to please Him

  12. #52
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,830
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    147
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    93
    Thanked in
    61 Posts

    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar
    Could you please point me to a passage where it states that faith is experiential only? Could you provide a thorough explanation of the Eph. 2:8 where it says we are saved through faith as an instrument?
    Faith is instrumental only in the experiential aspect of salvation. It is not at all instrumental in actually saving us from our sins! Christ is the instrument!

    Here is Gill on Eph. 2:8 -

    through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; salvation is through faith, not as a cause or condition of salvation, or as what adds anything to the blessing itself; but it is the way, or means, or instrument, which God has appointed, for the receiving [knowledge of] and enjoying it, that so it might appear to be all of grace; and this faith is not the produce of man's free will and power, but it is the free gift of God; and therefore salvation through it is consistent with salvation by grace; since that itself is of grace, lies entirely in receiving grace and gives all the glory to the grace of God: the sense of this last clause may be, that salvation is not of ourselves; it is not of our desiring nor of our deserving, nor of our performing, but is of the free grace of God: though faith is elsewhere represented as the gift of God, Joh 6:65 and it is called the special gift of faith, in the Apocrypha: "And blessed is the eunuch, which with his hands hath wrought no iniquity, nor imagined wicked things against God: for unto him shall be given the "special gift of faith", and an inheritance in the temple of the Lord more acceptable to his mind.'' (Wisdom 3:14)
    This is my signature.

  13. #53
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,830
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    147
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    93
    Thanked in
    61 Posts

    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    A brother I highly regard who also posts here (Harald Granbacka) wrote a wonderful article on this topic that I found to be very edifying. Here are a few snippets from it. You can read the whole thing on Pristine Grace or his website...

    http://www.pristinegrace.org/media.php?id=310

    It is a popular and, I venture to say, unscriptural error which many reportedly good men as well as evident religionists repeat time and time again. They teach or maintain that Justification before God is "received", and that "by faith" or "through faith", faith or trust in Christ, that is. But the New Testament nowhere explicitly talks about "receiving" justification before God. It does talk about receiving the atonement (reconciliation), Romans 5:11, and receiving Christ (Col. 2:8, John 1:12) etc. Thus this is in a certain sense unscriptural terminology and wording used. At its best it sounds pious and good, at its worst it upsets and is confusing to God's true and living sheep, and a ground of unequal yoking (2Cor. 6:14 ff.) with heretical men such as deny that God's elect were once and for all justified from the curse of the law in the sight of God as Judge in and by Christ on the cross, by God sovereignly imputing His righteousness to them unto justification of life.

    Such as talk about "receiving" justification before God "by" or "through" faith have seemingly no problem either with such unscriptural sayings as that "faith is the instrument of justification (before God)". Some instead of "instrument" use the word "means" of justification. Saying and maintaining that "faith is the instrument/means of justification before God" is going against the written word of God (cp. Isa. 8:20), and thus it constitutes error or heresy. It is very serious an error, because it denies Paul's and the Scripture's doctrine concerning justification before God, and robs from the glory and preeminence of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour of God's unconditionally chosen little ones. The holy Scripture nowhere states that faith is an instrument or means of justification before God, nor of "receiving" said justification in the actual matter of it. Faith, when true faith of God's operation is under consideration, is a work, not a "work of law" (legal effort) albeit a good work worked in righteousness (Titus 3:5), a work wrought in God (John 3:21), a fruit of the Spirit of Christ (Gal. 5:22) indwelling a sinner quickened on the footing of the resurrection of Christ Jesus, his mediatorial Lord, from among dead ones. And the Scripture explicitly states that Justification in God's sight is not by or through or on ground of works performed by a sinner, whether "works of law" or other kinds of works (Tit. 3:5). .

    ....

    Another reason why the sinner’s faith is not the condition or instrument of his justification from sin is found in the story of Cornelius. According to Peter, Cornelius did NOT hear and believe the gospel until Peter preached it to him: "And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should HEAR the word of the gospel, AND BELIEVE (Acts 15.7)." Yet God informed Peter BEFORE he ever met Cornelius, that Cornelius was already cleansed: "And the voice spake unto him (Peter) again the second time, What God HATH CLEANSED, that call not thou common (Acts 10.15)." This surely proves that Cornelius was ALREADY freed from the guilt of sin BEFORE he heard and believed the gospel. Cornelius was justified in this sense BEFORE he believed! Furthermore, it is the Holy Spirit’s own testimony that Cornelius had been a devout man and had feared God BEFORE he ever believed the gospel! Peter acknowledged this at the outset of his first discourse at Cornelius’ household: "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness (Cornelius did both), IS (not ‘will be’) accepted with him (Acts 10.35)."

    The Holy Scriptures do not talk about "receiving justification" before God because God's redeemed sheep have no need of "receiving" this thing here in time in the matter of it. It was graciously and sovereignly (by imputation of God) made theirs in Christ to Whom they were united at the cross by mediatorial union, and this was legally possible because of eternal vital union with Him from eternity by divine foreknowing. At the time of their divine summons by efficacious and irresistible grace (I'm now using this term to refer to experimental Gospel conversion), 1Thess. 1:4-6, in time they thus do not "receive" justification which is before God, but they undeservedly (by grace) obtain a spiritual knowledge by God-given and Spirit-wrought faith that Justification before God was given them in Jesus Christ the Righteous, that Christ truly justified them before the holy God when He hung on the accursed tree, having been made a curse for them. They feelingly rejoice with joy unspeakable in a finished work by spiritual Gospel faith, and do not concern themselves about "receiving" justification before God at God's hand, because it is "a done deal" past already, of which the Gospel of Christ testifies to their souls through the plentifully assuring Spirit of revelation. All who have been taught and and given to learn of the Father of Christ (John 6:45) have known these things in the spirit of it, and even some false Christians have an understanding of the same, albeit a mere notional letter knowledge, perhaps through having sat under a sound ministry which has taught and maintained what I here state. But their letter knowledge does not really and truly profit them (albeit they may take a certain comfort and rejoice in some measure in mentally and intellectually grasping such deep and glorious doctrinal points and truths) as they have not been truly taught of the God and Father of Christ Jesus the Lord in a personal and experimental way.

    ....



    Thus historically some have, as to the doctrine of them, properly distinguished these two separate justifications, the one before or in the sight of God as sovereign Judge at the time of Christ dying the death which was "the death of death", and the other as being in the present lifetime before the renewed conscience and consciousness of the imputatively justified and Spirit-drawn child of God. The one being the reception or obtainment of justification in Christ at Calvary through gratuitous sovereign divine imputation, the other being the obtaining of the knowledge or "Glad Tidings" of the former through divinely imparted faith, it being divinely, supernaturally and specially revealed "from faith to faith", which means as personal as can be. Which also means that sensible sinners as have truly and experimentally been the unworthy objects of this gracious supernatural divine and special revelation from the throne of grace on high (i.e. experimental justification) are enabled, by like precious faith (from the Spirit's divine energy) as Paul had, to say

    "I have been crucified with Christ, yet I am living, no longer I, but Christ is living in me, and that which I now live in the flesh I am living in faith, in that of the Son of God, him having loved me, and having given himself up for me." (Gal. 2:20)
    This is my signature.

  14. #54
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,830
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    147
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    93
    Thanked in
    61 Posts

    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    Faith IS a gift of God Himself. The object of that faith is faith in Christ.
    You may have faith in your faith - but not me! I have faith in Christ.
    This is my signature.

  15. #55
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    California
    Posts
    51
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    Faith is instrumental only in the experiential aspect of salvation. It is not at all instrumental in actually saving us from our sins! Christ is the instrument!
    I agree that faith is not what saves us. Faith is the instrument that receives justification.

  16. #56
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,830
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    147
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    93
    Thanked in
    61 Posts

    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    Because some have made faith a condition, we have some who totally take it out of the picture. Perhaps the 5 solas should be named 4 solas for them.
    From the 5solas.org home page - this is what I believe Sola Fide means...

    We believe that Christ's people freely receive knowledge and rely upon Christ entirely for their salvation by the gift of Faith Alone (Sola Fide).
    May it go no further than this! If we say that Christ's people are actually imputed righteousness through faith, we have taken away from the preeminence of Christ and the SOVEREIGNTY of God. There was an exchange that took place on the croos - the sins of the elect were placed on Christ and Christ's people received His righteousness. "Justification by faith alone" simply (and I do mean simply) means that Christ's people receive knowledge and come to depend on this event. PERIOD. NO MORE. NOTHING ELSE! That is Sola Fide. Anything else is erroneous and robs from Christ's preeminence. Christ's righteousness IS NOT imputed to the account of the elect by their faith!!!!!
    This is my signature.

  17. #57
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,830
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    147
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    93
    Thanked in
    61 Posts

    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    Quote Originally Posted by cih92
    I agree that faith is not what saves us. Faith is the instrument that receives justification.
    Clarification - Faith is the instrument that receives knowledge of accomplished justification. Men are justified before they have faith - from before they are born - through their whole life even before conversion - they just don't know it.
    This is my signature.

  18. #58
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,830
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    147
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    93
    Thanked in
    61 Posts

    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar
    While I do believe in justification from eternity, I believe that this doctrine can be misused to diminish the Scriptural emphasis upon subjective justification.
    I do not believe any truth can be misused. Truth is truth. If it's being misused, then it has been turned into a lie and is no longer truth or doctrine.

    Justification from eternity does not rob at all from the concept that faith is how God's people come to know they are justified in Christ. These two wondeful doctrines stand side by side and neither one robs from each other, unless of course one's understanding of the doctrine is lacking. For example, if one believed that righteousness was actually imputed to the believer at the time of faith, then one would indeed have a hard time understanding and believing justification from eternity because justification from eternity is centered on Christ - not the faith of the individual as a condition.
    This is my signature.

  19. #59
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    St. Louis
    Posts
    102
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    justified in eternity

    accomplished on cross

    Justification comes first, not faith

    "experiencing" faith is just that

    faith "gets" you nothing

    you have faith because you already have something

    my two cents

  20. #60
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    St. Louis
    Posts
    102
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: God's Will to Justify His People IS the Justification of Them

    oh yeah

    I meant to say it is simple isn't it?

Page 3 of 9 FirstFirst ... 3 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. My problem
    By Bigbil in forum Predestinarian Doctrine Archive
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 06-20-05, 02:47 PM
  2. Jacumba Conference - May 20-22, 2005
    By Brandan in forum News & Announcements Archive
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-26-05, 01:06 PM
  3. Limited Goodness
    By Skeuos Eleos in forum Predestinarian Doctrine Archive
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 02-27-04, 10:24 PM
  4. Church Membership Courses
    By Alan Stevens in forum Old Miscellaneous Archive
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 12-05-02, 06:30 AM
  5. British Conservative Catholics
    By Alan Stevens in forum Old Miscellaneous Archive
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-11-02, 09:56 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •