Pristine Grace
Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst ... 5
Results 81 to 90 of 90

Thread: God's Sovereignty in Hardening Reprobate Hearts

  1. #81
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    OR
    Posts
    1,064
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: God's Sovereignty in Hardening Reprobate Hearts

    Brandan, your input is noted and causing me a "good discomfort" I am noticing the digression here also from the original intent of the thread. Perhaps we need to read the first post again. Stay focused on that, then create new threads.

    Look at the ground we have covered.

    reprobation
    decree
    hardening
    origin of evil
    creation.

    I mean, 1000 of volumes have been written on these subjects for eternity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Joe, this is the point I was trying to make earlier. It is almost impossible to discuss any of these issues without bringing one of these other topics up. Theology is logical and everything is intertwined--it all relates. When we disagree on things other things must be introduced to show the inconsistencies of ones understanding. If one holds to two propositions and they are diametrically opposed then one or both of them must be wrong. That is unless that person holds to paradox.


  2. #82
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    OR
    Posts
    1,064
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: God's Sovereignty in Hardening Reprobate Hearts


    The problem I have is making this work with man's accountability. The source of evil (battery of evil) must lie within man. God creates this source, but does not supply it. Does this make sense?

    In your understanding of this important subject, how do you logically assign man accountability? I understand that we can just say "man is accountable" because the Bible says so. That's good enough for me! But, I also like to understand it logically.

    If the marriage of God's sovereignty and man's accountability is easy for you, then you do better than I. Maybe the Lord will grant me such maturity soon

    Well Kyle you have a few options here.

    1.) You can follow the doctrine of predestination to its Logical conclusion and accept that God did create sin and causes men to sin. You can put your struggle with accountability to bed by accepting that God is still going to hold man accountable that is unless they are the Elect and Christ bore the punishment of their sins.



    2.) You can reject that God causes men to sin. You can say that man brought sin into the word and God will hold them accountable for that. But you will have to deal with the fact that you now have the problem of another creator (man and angel), where did sin come from, and God does not cause everything therefore there are events taking place in His world He has to compensate for, but you will save God from taking the blame for mans sin.



    3.) You can just ignore it all and move on.


  3. #83
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    306
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: God's Sovereignty in Hardening Reprobate Hearts

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Holliday


    Well Kyle you have a few options here.

    1.) You can follow the doctrine of predestination to its Logical conclusion and accept that God did create sin and causes men to sin. You can put your struggle with accountability to bed by accepting that God is still going to hold man accountable that is unless they are the Elect and Christ bore the punishment of their sins.



    2.) You can reject that God causes men to sin. You can say that man brought sin into the word and God will hold them accountable for that. But you will have to deal with the fact that you now have the problem of another creator (man and angel), where did sin come from, and God does not cause everything therefore there are events taking place in His world He has to compensate for, but you will save God from taking the blame for mans sin.



    3.) You can just ignore it all and move on.
    Thanks Mike, you're right. I do need to make these important issues work logically and biblically. I appreciate the wisdom shared in this thread and will surely ponder it for some time.

    May the Lord bless us ever more with His wonderful grace and knowledge.

    Col 2:2-3 that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself, (3) in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

  4. #84
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    wingham,ontario
    Posts
    1,046
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: God's Sovereignty in Hardening Reprobate Hearts

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Holliday


    Well Kyle you have a few options here.

    1.) You can follow the doctrine of predestination to its Logical conclusion and accept that God did create sin and causes men to sin. You can put your struggle with accountability to bed by accepting that God is still going to hold man accountable that is unless they are the Elect and Christ bore the punishment of their sins.



    2.) You can reject that God causes men to sin. You can say that man brought sin into the word and God will hold them accountable for that. But you will have to deal with the fact that you now have the problem of another creator (man and angel), where did sin come from, and God does not cause everything therefore there are events taking place in His world He has to compensate for, but you will save God from taking the blame for mans sin.



    3.) You can just ignore it all and move on.
    Doc brother, good simple lay out, though number 3 is number 2 in actual fact. Ignoring it is to reject it.

    At the end of the day , this is where the rubber hits the road. You have to get your hands dirty with the Scripture texts Brandon sent through. It is these "in your face" texts that get to the nitty gritty. It took me some time as well to see and understand that the Lord controls all and yet we as creatures are "accountable". The whine and sing song of "what about man's responsibility?" is the rail of the scoffer. You want evidence of responsibility?...... check out the texts Brandan sent through, or what about Abraham in Genesis 15 and you shall see how "responsible" a creature is.

    Again I would refer to the book of Job where the Lord answers Job out of the whirlwind in the chapters 38-42. If you have questions or ever are asked questions regarding the responsibility of the creature, consider the Word of the Lord here.
    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

  5. #85
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,849
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: God's Sovereignty in Hardening Reprobate Hearts

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Holliday
    Joe, this is the point I was trying to make earlier. It is almost impossible to discuss any of these issues without bringing one of these other topics up. Theology is logical and everything is intertwined--it all relates. When we disagree on things other things must be introduced to show the inconsistencies of ones understanding. If one holds to two propositions and they are diametrically opposed then one or both of them must be wrong. That is unless that person holds to paradox.

    I know what your are saying Mike. The problem is when we try to cover all at once without systematically moving from one to the next that we end up with "birds Nest Theology".

    It is intertwined, but we also have to balnce that with the fact that we do not end up saying if one part is "wrong" according to our fallible limited understanding, that everything else falls. This dominoe premise does not have to happen. Because I agree with Gill, does not mean I deny the Sovereignty of God, or the virgin birth or the incarnation.


    As an aside, not everything that "appears" paradoxial in view is a contradiction. Paradoxes which are not based on a hidden error generally happen at the fringes of language and require extending the context (or language) to lose their paradox quality.


    So we shall proceede with the dialogue.


    Joe

  6. #86
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,830
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    147
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    93
    Thanked in
    61 Posts

    Re: God's Sovereignty in Hardening Reprobate Hearts

    See attached: Vincent Cheung's Booklet on the Problem of Evil (rmiweb)
    Attached Files Attached Files
    This is my signature.

  7. #87
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,830
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    147
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    93
    Thanked in
    61 Posts

    Re: God's Sovereignty in Hardening Reprobate Hearts

    See attached: A Biblical Theodicy by Gary Crampton (Trinity Foundation)
    Attached Files Attached Files
    This is my signature.

  8. #88
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,849
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: God's Sovereignty in Hardening Reprobate Hearts

    THe articles appear to stop short of what you, Bob and Mike espouse Brandan.

    I could agree with VC's last 2 lists he utylizes. That yes, God has a purpose for evil. But he rightly stops there where I believe you go further attempting to "logically" conclude something that I do not find necessary to delve into.


    There is no way we can answer the reason for suffering, useless suffering, in the world.

    The second article refers to Deut 29:29, which I am comfortable with as an answer. But since "secret" or "mystery" are 4 letter words with some, you guys will disagree with me!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    I did some reading and reflection this weekend on the original thread. AM I correct to say that the decree of reprobation does not equal the decre of final damnation nor the decree of evil/sin?

    As I look back, could someone please comment on the scriptures that speak of God hating the wicked, That He is light, there is no darkness in Him. Or in Romans what is meant when Paul speaks of God leaving men and turning them over to their own lustfull desires.

  9. #89
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,830
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    147
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    93
    Thanked in
    61 Posts

    Re: God's Sovereignty in Hardening Reprobate Hearts

    Do Some Things Happen that are not Predestined? by CC Morris

    Absolute Predestination by Gilbert Beebe

    Absolute Predestination : A Dialogue by Gilbert Beebe

    God's Decree
    by Jonas C. Sikes, 1929


    If Jehovah is Infinite in all His ways,
    Giving life to man and numbering his days,
    Who dares to impeach Him if in His wise plan
    He gave shape and direction to the ways of man?


    If He in His wisdom did all things create,
    Should He turn loose the helm, leave things to Fate?
    Did He not have a right in His sinless decree
    To mark the way for both you and for me?


    If He did decree just what we should do,
    I cannot arraign Him, say brother, can you?
    Before whom will you try Him as judge of your court?
    Who will act as your clerk and make your report?


    If all things are in the decree of His will
    And all things are working the same to fulfill,
    Who but a vile sinner too wicked to bow,
    Would call Him in question or say, What doest thou?


    If He decree the death of His only Son,
    The sinless, the righteous, the most Holy One,
    And this did not make Him the author of sin,
    To make Him the author, where will you begin?


    Will you begin with Judas whose act was foretold,
    And as was determined His Master he sold?
    Did not the dear Savior say woe to that man,
    I go as determined in God's holy plan.


    If Pharoah be one you think would no doubt,
    Prove that God's purpose was not carried out,
    Did not God command him by Moses you know?
    Saying, thus sayeth Jehovah, let My people go.


    Yet I will harden, yes, harden his heart,
    That he shall refuse and not let them depart,
    Till I bring My just plagues on all of your foes,
    And thus get Me honor on him and his host.


    Yet sinners most wicked will oft Him arraign
    Against His just counsel, they often complain,
    And say, if He decreed all things to the end,
    Then He is unjust and the author of sin.


    The heathen may rage and imagine vain things,
    The lowest, the highest, yea, even the kings,
    And shout till the world hear the sound of their din,
    The author, the author, the author of sin.


    His saints will still praise Him and shout as they go,
    Jehovah most holy all things doth foreknow;
    His counsel did settle just how they should be,
    So shout on you heathen, you don't disturb me.


    We learn from an angel that time shall soon end,
    And saints shall be welcomed by Jesus, their friend,
    This all is established by holy decree,
    For this it is written, and thus it shall be.


    If all things are certain, then how came them so?
    If things were not certain, how could God foreknow?
    Were all things to which foreknowledge relate
    Made certain by the old heathen goddess of Fate?


    We surely know at a thought or a glance,
    That things are not left to haphazard or chance,
    Will some please tell me that I may once see,
    How things can be certain, yet uncertain be?


    Now, while you are thinking, I'll come to a halt,
    If you don't see the point, it isn't my fault;
    But, brother, please tell me how this thing can be?
    All things were made certain without a decree.

    This is my signature.

  10. #90
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    204
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: God's Sovereignty in Hardening Reprobate Hearts

    Joe,

    These ARE hard questions. People struggled with them from the beginning of creation and will continue doing so until our Lord Jesus comes in glory and sorts all of us out.

    It is is good that you are asking, thinking God's things, comparing different writers, wrestling with these concepts instead of lazily throwing the whole thing into a paradox-mystery container.

    See whether the following is of any use. If not, we'll continue reading more Scripture, taking each of our thoughts into captivity to God our Lord, submitting our likes and dislikes to His authority and to His infinite and unsearchable wisdom.

    Do you agree or not that God wrote the scenario of the history of this earth and of the universe before He began speaking it into the material creation?

    If you answer ''yes'' - then things, including the most awful evil, must have been included in this scenario, because God could not leave ANYTHING to ''chance'', lest these ''chancy'' things, people or events decide to go into another direction to do something different, affecting other events, etc - wrecking the whole plan of God. So, if your answer is yes - God has written the whole detailed script of the history of His creation, then you must include evil in it.

    Or do you disagree? Do you think that God left evil people on their wicked autopilots, each of them inventing and executing his own evilness against God's will? How did they continue functioning - breathing, heart-beat, etc? Who sustained their lives? Themselves? What about hair on their heads that are numbered by their Creator? Does God has power over their bodies but the minds of the wicked are free to roam in any direction? And then their bodies - sustained by God - obey the instruction of these free wicked wills? Or, while they are left to their own evil devices, God then steps in whenever He wants and uses their wicked, unexpected by Him deeds, for His purposes?

    One thing nobody is saying: that God injects or infuses some evil into the workers of iniquity. We are taught by God that He created from the beginning different vessels for different purposes, and as such He is the sole and absolute possessor of this clay and all else. He does not have to add extra evil into the vessels of dishonor so that they go and do evil. We are taught that they are created for these very purposes exactly and therefore are intrinsically wicked, because such was God's pleasure, Ro9.22-23 and hundreds of other Biblical passages. Let a pot argue about the ''fairness'' of its Potter and we'll see how far this dissatisfied vessel will get.

    God is an eternally loving Father and Saviour to His elect, but a consuming fire to the reprobates, and we read all of these wondrous things of God in His Book. We are endlessly amazed at our salvation. But we also stand in awe at what our Lord God does with them whom He hates and who hate Him. They ARE evil and fully deserve all the swords, famines, captivities, diseases, ruinations and all punishments that our Just and Righteous God metes them.

    What do we say at such passages: ''And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and everyone shall eat the flesh of his friend in the siege and in the desperation with which their enemies and those who seek their lives shall drive them to despair. . . and say to them, ''Thus says the LORD of hosts: ''Even so I will break this people and this city, as one breaks a potter's vessel which cannot be made whole again; and they shall bury them in Tophet till there is no place to bury.'' Jer 19 (NKJ). And how many chapters are there like this one in the Bible? Many. Are the children of God our Lord supposed to wrinkle their noses, close their eyes and pretend that such things are not in the Bible, or murmur that they were written in a barbaric age while ours is much more civilized and refined? Or do we follow this stupid politically correct world and the present churchianity, echoing them: ''God is love and cannot be so cruel'', thus rejecting the Word of God, begrudging His Perfect right to do as He pleases with His own footstool?

    What choice do we have? Either we believe and rejoice that God is sovereign, or we believe that He is not sovereign. He cannot be a little bit sovereign, because if some things are out of His control, He then becomes a co-owner of this creation and thus co-god with these other decision-makers. It is not possible to have THIS our cake and eat it too.

    Arminians cannot stand the thought of God's absolute sovereignty and ascribe free will to man, which ''freedom'' leads them straight into creature's will overruling Creator's will. But for a child of God it is the biggest relief, peace and joy of joys that our Almighty God in His infinite wisdom and goodness runs this world exactly as He wills! Who else knows better? Who died in our stead and we are safe in His Righteousness? Whom else do we trust, no matter that we cannot always grasp the events of history and puzzlements of our daily lives?

    Keep asking, Joe. I am typing these thoughts as there is nobody I can talk to about these wonderful things. Feel free to disagree, but once you have made up your mind on something, then hold on to this concept, don't forget nor ignore it in your next questions.

    L-Today.

Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst ... 5

Similar Threads

  1. Prayer Request
    By ashamoun in forum General Discussion Archive
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 02-12-06, 08:26 AM
  2. Does "yowm" mean day or age in Genesis
    By Mickey in forum Predestinarian Doctrine Archive
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 07-25-04, 07:26 AM
  3. Preterism - Any Help
    By Alan Stevens in forum Old Miscellaneous Archive
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 05-23-02, 07:39 AM
  4. "New-New Religions And Sects"
    By Susan in forum Old Miscellaneous Archive
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 03-12-02, 09:35 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •