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Thread: Quiz for "Soul Winners"

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    Quiz for "Soul Winners"

    Quiz for Soul Winners
    by C.C. Morris


    This is a short quiz to test the Bible knowledge of soul-winners, revivalists, people who hand out tracts and put religious handbills on windshields and screen doors, and all who equate quality of worship with quantity of activity. Also, this quiz might acquaint them with a few verses they did not know were in the Bible.
    Take as long as you like with this quiz, as there is no time limit. Use your Bible, and strive for quality in your answers, rather than merely working for quantity. After all, there are some things more important than soul-winning.

    1.Where is the Bible text that says to accept Jesus before it is too late?

    2.Where is the Bible text that says to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior?

    3.Where does the Bible mention a "personal savior" at all?Is there any other kind of a savior than a personal one?What other kind of savior is there?

    4.Please give the Bible reference where the often-quoted text, "Whosoever will may come," is located.

    5.Did Christ pray for the world?For whom did He pray? (John 17.9)

    6.Were Christís parables used as "sermon illustrations" to make His teachings plain? (Mark 4.11-12)

    7.If Christ saved the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1.15), could there be any lesser sinner that He could not save, if He desired to do so?

    8.Regarding the "unsaved," does God (a) have the desire to save them but lack the ability; (b) have both the desire and the ability to save them (i. e., universal salvation); (c) lack both the ability and the desire to save them; or, (d) have the ability but not the desire to save them? (See Job 23.13, Psalm 115.3, Psalm 135.6)

    9.Does God desire the salvation of those who were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2.8)? .

    10.Does God desire the salvation of those who, as natural brute beasts, are made to be taken and destroyed (2 Peter 2.12)? .

    11.Does God desire the salvation of those who were before of old ordained to "this condemnation (Jude 4)"?

    12. Does God desire the salvation of Esau? Of Pharaoh?Of those whom He hardens?Of those vessels of wrath fitted to destruction (Romans 9.13-22)? .

    13.When was the last time you saw a vessel fit itself for anything?

    14. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor (Romans 9.21)?

    15. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? (Romans 9.14 )

    16. Who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, "Why has thou made me thus?"? (Romans 9.20)

    17. Does God wish to save those who are now in Hell? If He does, why doesnít He do so, since He has all power?If He does not wish to save them, did He ever desire to do so? If He at one time did desire to save them, when did the unchangeable God (Malachi 3.6) change, and who or what changed Him?

    18. If God is changeable, wonít the sons of Jacob be consumed? (Malachi 3.6)

    19. Does Christ (a) seek more people than He saves, (b) save more people than He seeks, or (c) is His seeking and His saving to the exact same extent? (Luke 19.10)

    20. Is Jesus Christ a better seeker than He is a savior? (Luke 19.10)

    21. If you "seek and ye shall find (Matthew 7.7)," will not Christ most certainly do the same? Will He be less successful than you?

    22. What did Isaiah mean when he prayed, "O Lord, why hast Thou made us to err from Thy ways, and hardened our hearts from Thy fear (Isaiah 63.17)?"?

    23. Whom does God seek--His servants, or Satanís servants? (Psalm 119.176)

    24. Since almost no one denies that the devil can and does work in his children (Ephesians 2.2), why would anyone deny that (a) God works in His children, or (b) God also works in the devilís childrenóunless they believe the devil has more power than God?

    25. Why does Isaiah say that God will ordain peace for His people? (Isaiah 26.12)

    26. See Hosea 4.17. If Ephraim is joined to idols, why donít we send missionaries to him to teach him to do better? Why let him alone?

    27. Can anyone know the Father or the Son, short of divine revelation? (Matthew 11.25-27)

    28. Can you change your belief?

    29. Can the people whom God has delivered over to strong delusion that they might believe a lie that they might be damned who believed not the truth (2 Thessalonians 2.11-12) change their belief?

    30. Can those whom God gave over to a reprobate mind (Romans 1.28) change their belief?

    31. Can those to whom God has given belief (Philippians 1.29) change their belief?

    32. Can you keep from believing something you believe is the truth?

    33. Were Adam and Eve saved? If they were, who was the soul-winner who led them to God? Did not their salvation establish the precedent for all salvation?

    34. How many ways does God have to save people?

    35. What else besides John 3.16 did Jesus Christ say about Godís love?

    36. How many sermons on "the love of God" are recorded in the book of Acts?

    37. Where is the verse that says to give your heart to God?

    38. Where is the text that says to "open your heart and let Jesus come in"?

    39. Who opened Lydiaís heart? (Acts 16.14)

    40. What does "so" mean in John 3.16?

    41. Does God save sinners because of what they do, or because of what Christ has done, or both, or neither?

    42. Whatever will be will be--will it not? Do you know anyone who really believes that (a) whatever will be wonít be, or (b) whatever wonít be will be?

    43. Why didnít Ephraim repent before he was turned? (Jeremiah 31.18f)

    44. In Psalm 119.32, why wouldnít the psalmist run the way of Godís commandments before God enlarged his heart?

    45. In Psalm 119.35, if the psalmist delights in the path of Godís commandments, then why must he be made to go in that path?

    46. Are the terms "saved," "born again, "regenerated," and "quickened" all synonymous? That is, do they all refer to the same experience?

    47. If "quicken" means the same as to regenerate, and the psalmist means in Psalm 119.50 and 119.93 that God has regenerated him by the means of the Bible, then why does he pray to be quickened in Psalm 119.25, 37, 40, 88, 149, 154, 156, 159, and other places?

    48. If the psalmist is "saved," then why does he pray for God to save him (Psalm 119.94, 146)? Or, did "unsaved" men write the Bible?

    49. Why would the psalmist pray that God would not incline his heart to covetousness (Psalm 119.36) or any evil thing (Psalm 141.4) if that were not within Godís prerogative, power, and disposal?

    50. Were those whose sins remained (John 9.41) part of the world whose sins the Lamb of God took away (John 1.29)? Can sins be taken away and also remain?

    51. Name one child of God that ever totally and finally apostatized.

    52. Name one person for whom Christ died that was or will be damned eternally.

    53. (a) Donít you think you would save everyone, if you could have your way? And (b) Didnít God say, "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways (Isaiah 55.8)"?

    54. If all a person has to do to be saved is call on the Lord, then why didnít the Lord save Davidís enemies when they cried unto Him (Psalm 18.40-41)? .

    55.God says, "Every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters (Isaiah 55.1)." Is that an invitation to anyone that does not thirst?

    56. Does Christ call goats in order to make them sheep, or does He call His own sheep by name (John 10.3)?

    57. (a) Could the apostle Paul have been faithful, had he not obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful (1 Corinthians 7.25)? (b) Having obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful, could the apostle Paul, or anyone else, be otherwise than faithful?

    58. If your flesh and blood actions got any individual turned from Hell to Heaven, would you say that the flesh profiteth NOTHING (John 6.63)?

    59. Doesnít the "soul-winning" system make oneís "new birth" dependent on oneís brother, rather than oneís Father?

    60 . Where is there a scriptural example or precept to teach anyone to pray for the salvation of the wicked, or to pray for sinners to be born again?
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    Re: Quiz for "Soul Winners"

    That's great! I saved it for future reference and fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    60 . Where is there a scriptural example or precept to teach anyone to pray for the salvation of the wicked, or to pray for sinners to be born again?
    Romans 10:1 comes to mind:
    Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.

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    Re: Quiz for "Soul Winners"

    Why is it assumed this is eternal salvation? I believe Rom. 10:1 is referring to salvation in a temporal sense. There were awful calamities and judgments that were about to be poured out on Jerusalem in 70AD. If he is praying for their conversion or temporal salvation, then he is obviously not praying for all of Israel, but the remnant according to the election of Grace (Rom 9:27). He's not praying for their eternal salvation, but the conversion of the elect in general.
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    Re: Quiz for "Soul Winners"

    Quote Originally Posted by melted
    That's great! I saved it for future reference and fun.


    Romans 10:1 comes to mind:
    Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.

    Brandan. THe infallible interpreter says melted has a good point. Paul speaks of BOTH, praying for their salvation, while also believing that God hardened them.

    What is salvation in the temporal sense? Agaain, since Paul did nto know who was part of the remnant, he prayed for them. I mean, was every memebr of every church or assembly that Paul spoke to an elect child of God? Impossible. Paul prayed all the time, I do not see him clarifying whom he prayed for.

    Brethren, my heart's desire and my supplication to God is for them, that they may be saved.

    "them" is a reference to Israel, the great majority of whom had rejected the Lord and were thus in a lost condition. The fact of Paul's praying for Israel is instructive, especially in view of Paul's belief of Gods Sovereignty which had predicted their stumbling on Christ, as mentioned at the end of chapter 9.

    Paul's prayer was to the effect that Israel should believe the gospel, not that they should be saved in unbelief. This is very key to praying for ones salvation.

    THis is supported by Gill:
    prayer to God for Israel [was], that they might be saved;
    not only that they might be saved in a temporal sense, from these grievous calamities and sore judgments he saw were coming upon them, which he had reason to believe would issue in the destruction of them, as a nation and church; but that they might be spiritually converted, turned from their evil ways, and brought to believe in Christ, whom they had despised and rejected, and so be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: this he might desire not only from a natural affection for them, but as a minister of the Gospel, who cannot but wish that all that hear him might be converted and saved; and as a believer in Christ he might pray for this in submission to the will of God; and especially as he knew there was a seed, a remnant according to the election of grace, at that present time among them, that should be saved, though the larger number of them were cast off. The Alexandrian copy, and some others, read "for them", instead of "for Israel"; not naming them, being easily understood; and so the Vulgate Latin and Syriac versions.


    He knows their plight because their condition was his own condition prior to his conversion. His desire for their salvation is reflected in his going to the Jews first (Ac13:46; 18:5, 6 Ro1:16) Paul does not rejoice that they have stumbled over the stumbling stone (Ro9:32). Paulís heartís desire also translated into action: prayer to God for Israel. Paul didnít just "care," he prayed!


    Calvin:

    We here see with what solicitude the holy man obviated offenses; for in order to soften whatever sharpness there may have been in his manner of explaining the rejection of the Jews, he still testifies, as before, his goodwill towards them, and proves it by the effect; for their salvation was an object of concern to him before the Lord, and such a feeling arises only from genuine love. It may be at the same time that he was also induced by another reason to testify his love towards the nation from which he had sprung; for his doctrine would have never been received by the Jews had they thought that he was avowedly inimical to them; and his defection would have been also suspected by the Gentiles, for they would have thought, as we have said in the last chapter, that he became an apostate from the law through his hatred of men.


    THis one is for Harald.. lol

    Romans 10:1


    Desire (eudokia). No papyri examples of this word, though eudokhsiv occurs, only in LXX and N.T., but no example for "desire" unless this is one, though the verb eudokew is common in Polybius, Diodorus, Dion, Hal. It means will, pleasure, satisfaction (Matthew 11:26; 2 Thessalonians 1:11; Philippians 1:15; 2:13; Ephesians 1:5,9).

    Supplication (dehsiv). Late word from deomai, to want, to beg, to pray. In the papyri. See Luke 1:13. It is noteworthy that, immediately after the discussion of the rejection of Christ by the Jews, Paul prays so earnestly for the Jews "that they may be saved" (eiv swthrian), literally "unto salvation." Clearly Paul did not feel that the case was hopeless for them in spite of their conduct. Bengel says: Non orasset Paul si absolute reprobati essent (Paul would not have prayed if they had been absolutely reprobate). Paul leaves God's problem to him and pours out his prayer for the Jews in accordance with his strong words in 9:1-5.

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    Re: Quiz for "Soul Winners"

    I totally disagree with Gill on this!

    There is NO WAY - NO WAY that Paul truly desired to see all of Israel converted to the truth. NO WAY. This would clearly be against God's will. I do not desire to see all men converted to the truth. My desire is to see God's will carried out, and that includes the damnation of the wicked and the conversion of the righteous.

    Do you want to see the whole world saved? Shame on you! Christ didn't save the whole world. How dare you pray for something that goes clearly against God's will. (I'm not talking to a particular person here, just giving a sermon). It is blasphemous to wish for the salvation of everyone in my opinion!!!!

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    Re: Quiz for "Soul Winners"

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    I totally disagree with Gill on this!

    There is NO WAY - NO WAY that Paul truly desired to see all of Israel converted to the truth. NO WAY. This would clearly be against God's will. I do not desire to see all men converted to the truth. My desire is to see God's will carried out, and that includes the damnation of the wicked and the conversion of the righteous.

    Do you want to see the whole world saved? Shame on you! Christ didn't save the whole world. How dare you pray for something that goes clearly against God's will. (I'm not talking to a particular person here, just giving a sermon). It is blasphemous to wish for the salvation of everyone in my opinion!!!!

    Brandan

    Well obviously Paul and every commentary I have read feel differently. Including myself. How is it praying against Gods will to have Him save people you care about?


    Christ came to save sinners. So if He saves you and I, He can save anyone.

    God saving and damning is not our business Brandan, that is His alone. David
    Also prayed for Israel. Many did. How do we know who the enemies of God are and that they wont be converted?

    Anyway, Paul said it. That is good enough for me. No need for me to shape his inspired words to fit my systematic. It is plain as day. Unless of course, it does not mean what it says...

    Show me one NT example of anyone desireing to see the wicked damned and rejoicing over it. Just one.

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    Re: Quiz for "Soul Winners"

    • I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh. Romans 9:1-3
    • What does Paul say here Brandan? Deep within the soul of this man of God lay a burden a great sorrow, a continual grief. Horror of horrors, he was saved, but his brethren were not.

      Perhaps you do think Paul was lying when he said that his concern for the lost meant more to him than his relationship with Jesus. Maybe he had no fear that all liars would have their part in the lake of fire. Perhaps he had no concern that in bearing false witness, he would transgress the Ninth Commandment, for which Ananias and Sapphira where swiftly struck dead in their crooked tracks. Of course, we canít be the judge as to whether or not Paul was telling the truth in Christ, that his conscience was bearing witness in the Holy Spirit, but there certainly is evidence of his care for the salvatiion of his brethren.


      Moses said a similar thing when he asked that God would cut him out of the book of life, rather than judge Israel.

      In light of these thoughts, I donít know how anyone can call himself a Christian and not have concern for the lost. Charles Spurgeon said, "Have you no wish for others to be saved? Then you are not saved yourself. Be sure of that." He continued, "The saving of souls, if a man has once gained love to perishing sinners and his blessed Master, will be an all-absorbing passion to him. It will so carry him away, that he will almost forget himself in the saving of others. He will be like the brave fireman, who cares not for the scorch or the heat, so that he may rescue the poor creature on whom true humanity has set its heart. If sinners will be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies. And if they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees, imploring them to stay. If hell must be filled, at least let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go there unwarned and unprayed for."

      Hell should be so real to us that its flames burn away apathy and motivate us to warn the lost. Do we see the unsaved as hellís future fuel? Do we understand that sinful humanity is the anvil of the justice of God? Have we ever been horrified or wept because we fear their fate? The depth of our evangelistic zeal will be in direct proportion to the love we have. If you are not concerned about your neighborís salvation, then I am concerned for yours.

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    Re: Quiz for "Soul Winners"

    I only want God's chosen people to come to a knowledge of Christ. I guess that makes me a damnable heretic according to Spurgeon!
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    Re: Quiz for "Soul Winners"

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    Well obviously Paul and every commentary I have read feel differently. Including myself. How is it praying against Gods will to have Him save people you care about?
    Do you want to see the whole world saved? I don't. What about those already in hell? Do you think Paul wanted to see those in hell saved? I certainly would like to see my loved ones who are unaware of Christ to come to a knowledge of Him as certainly knowing Him has brought great joy to my heart, and I'd like to see them have this joy as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    Christ came to save sinners. So if He saves you and I, He can save anyone.
    Christ DID save sinners. He saved me. He saved a lot more people too. But the phrase, "He can save anyone" is unbiblical. Either He did or didn't. He's finished saving.

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    God saving and damning is not our business Brandan, that is His alone. David Also prayed for Israel. Many did. How do we know who the enemies of God are and that they wont be converted?
    They were praying for people they perceived as brethren as they were in a covenant community.

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    Anyway, Paul said it. That is good enough for me. No need for me to shape his inspired words to fit my systematic. It is plain as day. Unless of course, it does not mean what it says...
    Rom 9:1-3, (KJV), I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, (2) That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. (3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

    Your scriptural passage has proven the point that Paul desired to see some of his brethren (of the flesh) come to a knowledge of Christ, but he also knew that this would not happen for all of Israel. I think further study is needed on these verses, but at most I would concede he was interested in his covenant family (elect) - not the entire gentile world or all of Israel for that matter.

    Show me one NT example of anyone desireing to see the wicked damned and rejoicing over it. Just one.
    Rev 19:1-3, (KJV), And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: (2) For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. (3) And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

    God's people in heaven will be rejoicing over the damnation of the wicked, and I hope to be singing along with them!
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    Re: Quiz for "Soul Winners"

    Do we have any recorded events of Christ praying for the world or desiring for everyone in a particular demographic to be saved?

    or

    Do we have any recorded events where Christ prayed only for the elect?


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    Re: Quiz for "Soul Winners"

    Jn 17:9, (KJV), I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
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    Re: Quiz for "Soul Winners"

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    Do you want to see the whole world saved? I don't. What about those already in hell? Do you think Paul wanted to see those in hell saved? I certainly would like to see my loved ones who are unaware of Christ to come to a knowledge of Him as certainly knowing Him has brought great joy to my heart, and I'd like to see them have this joy as well.

    Please do not assume I mean I pray for those in hell Brandan. This is extreme and not at all the case of Paul

    Christ DID save sinners. He saved me. He saved a lot more people too. But the phrase, "He can save anyone" is unbiblical. Either He did or didn't. He's finished saving.
    This is obviously your new "pet doctrine". It is semantics. In fact Paul spoke of past present and future tense of Salvation



    Rom 9:1-3, (KJV), I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, (2) That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. (3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

    Your scriptural passage has proven the point that Paul desired to see some of his brethren (of the flesh) come to a knowledge of Christ, but he also knew that this would not happen. I think further study is needed on these verses, but at most I would concede he was interested in his covenant family - not the entire gentile world.
    This was Israel he prayed for. i never said the whole world. Just like I pray for my brethren. The key is of the flesh. Paul was not thinking elect or not here. OF the flesh enforced that

    Rev 19:1-3, (KJV), And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: (2) For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. (3) And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

    God's people in heaven will be rejoicing over the damnation of the wicked, and I hope to be singing along with them!

    This is different that praying while here on earth Brandan

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    Re: Quiz for "Soul Winners"

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Holliday
    Do we have any recorded events of Christ praying for the world or desiring for everyone in a particular demographic to be saved?

    or

    Do we have any recorded events where Christ prayed only for the elect?

    Then Paul contradicts Christ. Anyway Mike, this reasoning is weak at best. For like Brandan said, we are not Christ. He knows His sheep, we do not. So again this is out of context.


    Stick with Romans 9 and Romans 10. Dont move to another that supports an imagined command. One does not need to read John when studying Romans 9,10. And is it not ironic that Romans 9 Paul speaks of Gods Sovereignty in salvation as clear as day, but yet feels responsible to pray for his brethren. Those that have been cut off. Why would you even consider anything other than what it plainly teaches?


    Paul who spoke more of electing grace, also represents an evangelical zeal. And this is no paradox!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Re: Quiz for "Soul Winners"

    There will always be this kind of objection that Paul was facing here: people will say, like you and Mike "You cannot feel real grief over the lost if God chooses freely and unconditionally whom he will save." Paul knows this is an objection, and all he can do here is say: I really grieve over Israel, and I really believe that God is sovereign over who is saved and who is not. So again if it was not a problem for him, why for you?

    The fruit of Paulís anguish for his brethren who are accursed and cut off from Christ is to desire their salvation and to pray for them to be saved. Romans 10:1, "Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation."

    I will not follow the reasonings of skeptical men here. Donít say: There is no reason to pray for sinners if God is sovereign to save. Say instead, Because God is sovereign to save, I will pray for sinners with hope. Because Paul prayed for their salvation, I will pray. Because I have grief and anguish in my heart, I will pray. And as it says in 2 Timothy 2:25, "God may perhaps grant them repentance."

    Paul had no hatred for anyone. He loved those who hated him.

    1 Cor. 4:12, 13, ďBeing reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it; being defamed, we entreat.Ē

    At that time when he was a prisoner through their malice, and stood before king Agrippa, and Agrippa said, ďAlmost thou persuadest me to be a Christian;Ē and his blood-thirsty enemies were standing by; he replied, ďI would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.Ē He wished that his accusers, and those who had bound themselves with an oath that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed him, had all of them as great privileges and as much of the favor of heaven as himself.

    When the Jews took him in the temple, though they behaved themselves more like devils than men, he addressed them in terms of high respect, ďMen, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence:Ē calling the common Jews his brethren, and saluting the elders and scribes with the title of fathers, though they were a body of infidels. So when he pleads his cause before Festus, a heathen governor, he gives him the title that belonged to him in his station; calling him, ďMost noble Festus.Ē


    Hoeksema speaks clearly also:


    We must not, however, misunderstand this strong expression of Paul's. He cannot mean, of course, that as a Christian he could wish for any man's sake that he had no part with Christ, that he were still in his sin, that he were still a natural and wicked man, that he belonged to the enemies of Christ. That would be spiritually impossible. And that would imply a wicked desire. But, in the first place, he speaks according to the flesh to his brethren, who are his kinsmen according to the flesh. He is related to them, and his natural love and pity for them is expressed in these words. And secondly, the apostle is not considering the ethical and spiritual side of the matter, but is rather thinking of the joy of salvation and strongly desiring that all his brethren might share in that joy. He says that he could wish to lose it, to forfeit salvation from that viewpoint for his brethren, his kinsmen according to the flesh.

    And looking at it in this light, this passage is very important for us.

    First of all, let us note that the apostle's attitude in approaching the tremendous subject of God's absolute sovereignty in election and reprobation is intended by the Word of God as an example for us. When, as children of God, we approach this subject, and speak of God's sovereign predestination, it is but proper that our attitude should be deeply spiritual. It may not be, it could not possibly be the attitude of pride and self-exaltation; for if it pleased God to ordain us unto salvation in distinction from others, it certainly is no cause for us to boast in self. One who really understands the truth of this point will humble himself deeply before God. Let no flesh glory in His Presence. And this also implies that one cannot very well speak of the subject of God's sovereign rejection of the reprobate, who in time are our fellow men, our kinsmen according to the flesh, without feeling to an extent the same heaviness, the same continual sorrow for them which the apostle here so emphatically declares to feel in his heart. No cold-blooded rejoicing in the damnation of our fellow men may characterize our contemplation of God's sovereign dealings with the children of men. The fact that God's predestinating purpose divides our race, makes separation between men of the same flesh and blood, always remains a matter of suffering as long as we are in this present time. And this leads me to another remark. From the viewpoint of our flesh, of our earthly, natural life and relationships, it is not so strange, - barring some theological objections, - to hear the apostle declare that he could wish to be accursed from Christ for his kinsmen according to the flesh. Without wishing to place ourselves on a par with the apostle, we may safely say that, in a degree, we can often repeat these words after him. Just imagine a parent who experiences the grief of seeing one or more of his children walk the way of sin and destruction. Just imagine a pastor, who, in the course of years becomes attached to his flock and earnestly desires their salvation, but who beholds many of them that are not the objects of God's electing love. And what is true of our own flesh and blood in the narrowest sense of the word and of the Church of Christ in the world in general can be applied to mankind as a whole. Out of one blood God has made the whole of the human race, and they are, according to the flesh, all our brethren. And we can understand a little, at least, of the attitude of the apostle when he speaks of the great heaviness that burdens his soul and says that he could wish to be accursed from Christ for his kinsmen according to the flesh. And in as far as we could wish in our present flesh and blood, we could indeed desire all men to be saved. What then? Shall we hide and corrupt the truth of God's sovereign predestination from purely carnal and humanistic considerations? God forbid We believe the Word of God according to the Scriptures, and in them we trust. And that Word teaches us plainly that God is the Lord, even in regard to the salvation of His own and the damnation of the rest. Even though for a time this antithesis means suffering according to the flesh, by faith we are of the party of the living God, consecrated to Him and to His glory, and are confident that when all the suffering of this present time is past, God will justify Himself, and all flesh shall confess His everlasting righteousness in the damnation of the reprobate as well as in the salvation of the elect. Soli Deo Gloria!


    So yes, this does need more study. AS it stands now, I am completely satisfied with the words of Paul, and others that speak of Pauls desire for the salvation of his brethren and heathens.....


    Joe

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    Re: Quiz for "Soul Winners"

    And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. Rev. 2:26,27



    From Rev. 2, the promise is that not only Christ will rule over the wicked (reprobate) nations with a rod of iron. His people will also, as he gives them this power. So the torments of the damned (whatever they might be) are not only administered by Christ but also by the saints. The attitude toward the reprobate: "Alleluia, Her smoke rises up forever and ever!" (19:3)

    The only attitude by the saints toward the reprobates should be celebration of their downfall and retribution. We are not to pray for them, feel sorry for them, or desire their salvation--even as Christ does none of theses things.

    There is no difference between praying for someone now in hell and a reprobate not yet in hell. In God's estimation both are the same. Even so, Christ specifically says that he does not pray for the world. We should not either.

    We pray that God will gather his elect out of the world. Paul's prayers for Israel were specifically for the ELECT of Israel according to God's grace in election; to say that he prayed for reprobate Jews is disgraceful.

    Like Jesus, we are not to pray for the world of reprobates. Of course, that world is a general entity to us when it comes to those now alive. It is not specific names or souls, for we know not who the elect and reprobates are. We are to pray for the salvation of God's elect. It is entirely improper, however, to pray for the salvation of someone presently unconverted unless we also defer to God's election or otherwise of that person.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Quiz for "Soul Winners"

    Quote Originally Posted by BillTwisse
    We pray that God will gather his elect out of the world. Paul's prayers for Israel were specifically for the ELECT of Israel according to God's grace in election; to say that he prayed for reprobate Jews is disgraceful.

    Like Jesus, we are not to pray for the world of reprobates. Of course, that world is a general entity to us when it comes to those now alive. It is not specific names or souls, for we know not who the elect and reprobates are. We are to pray for the salvation of God's elect. It is entirely improper, however, to pray for the salvation of someone presently unconverted unless we also defer to God's election or otherwise of that person.
    This still avoids exactly the examples of Paul Bob. And the few commentators i mentioned. Paul expressed a want for Agrippa and his cohorts. I do not know where one can even venture upon your understanding when Scripture says otherwise. Again, since we know not who they are, there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong for us to pray that GOD SAVES THEM. Please deal with the texts presented and not some systematic. If I am wrong I will repent, but I believe the Scriptures are plain as day

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    Re: Quiz for "Soul Winners"

    Then Paul contradicts Christ. Anyway Mike, this reasoning is weak at best. For like Brandan said, we are not Christ. He knows His sheep, we do not. So again this is out of context.


    Stick with Romans 9 and Romans 10. Dont move to another that supports an imagined command. One does not need to read John when studying Romans 9,10. And is it not ironic that Romans 9 Paul speaks of Gods Sovereignty in salvation as clear as day, but yet feels responsible to pray for his brethren. Those that have been cut off. Why would you even consider anything other than what it plainly teaches?


    Paul who spoke more of electing grace, also represents an evangelical zeal. And this is no paradox!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Joe, so are you telling me that you believe these scriptures are telling us that Paul while understanding that God does not save everyone, he (Paul) desires that God will save them anyway? And so from that 'example' you claim exists in scripture you are going to mirror this 'zeal' without knoweledge and pray that God save those who he has predestined to hell because you have some type of 'feeling' toward everyone in the world? The desire of God's children should be for God's will to be done. Not to figure out who is elect and whos not, not to blanket pray for the world because whe know the truth. Your examples of Paul do not back up your rantings, but they do provide a convincing argument on how to not pray without your mind.


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    Re: Quiz for "Soul Winners"

    No scriptures have been presented that state that Paul prayed for specific INDIVIDUALS to be saved in an 'unconditional' fashion. Of course he wanted the salvation of those whom he preached to and felt certain hopes toward specific persons. In the same manner that we do toward our family members.

    The context is the entirety of Rom. 9-11 which deals with the election of the remnant of Israel according to grace. Paul's prayer is that Israel not be cast aside in the manner of those nations or peoples that God 'gives up' to a reprobate destiny, based on the promise and covenant to Abraham and the Patriarchs. For those who read more into it than that, I believe their exegesis is to be thrown out--it is based on snippets and not the whole of scripture.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Quiz for "Soul Winners"

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Holliday
    Joe, so are you telling me that you believe these scriptures are telling us that Paul while understanding that God does not save everyone, he (Paul) desires that God will save them anyway? And so from that 'example' you claim exists in scripture you are going to mirror this 'zeal' without knoweledge and pray that God save those who he has predestined to hell because you have some type of 'feeling' toward everyone in the world? The desire of God's children should be for God's will to be done. Not to figure out who is elect and whos not, not to blanket pray for the world because whe know the truth. Your examples of Paul do not back up your rantings, but they do provide a convincing argument on how to not pray without your mind.

    I still do nto understand how you can view these scriptures in ANY OTHER light than what is presented.

    First of all, I am not at all taking this to the extreme and saying Paul was praying for every single sperm egg creation in the world. He was a Jew, He is praying for the Jews. And I am exactly saying that Pauls prayers, his heartfelt longing, his love for his brethren is what motivates these prayers. All the while knowing God is Sovereign. These are not rantings Mike. WHat else am I to provide other than Scripture itself, and commentaries upon them by Sovereign Grace believers? So Gill, Calvin, Henry, Hoeksema, Spurgeon, Huntington, Owen, all these men are wrong with me also then.


    Joe

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    Re: The God of Spurgeon and Spurgeonism

    Spurgeon Have you no wish for others to be saved? Then you are not saved yourself. Be sure of that." He continued, "The saving of souls, if a man has once gained love to perishing sinners and his blessed Master, will be an all-absorbing passion to him. It will so carry him away, that he will almost forget himself in the saving of others. He will be like the brave fireman, who cares not for the scorch or the heat, so that he may rescue the poor creature on whom true humanity has set its heart. If sinners will be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies. And if they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees, imploring them to stay. If hell must be filled, at least let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go there unwarned and unprayed for."

    Hell should be so real to us that its flames burn away apathy and motivate us to warn the lost. Do we see the unsaved as hellís future fuel? Do we understand that sinful humanity is the anvil of the justice of God? Have we ever been horrified or wept because we fear their fate? The depth of our evangelistic zeal will be in direct proportion to the love we have. If you are not concerned about your neighborís salvation, then I am concerned for yours.


    I have never read anything more unbiblical than this. There is not a single passage of scripture to support the preaching of hell as a 'means' of evangelism or as motive for the saved to preach to their neighbors. This is typical evanjellyfish poppycock. R.C. Sproul once stated, "I wouldn't wish a minute in hell on my worst enemy." Bud David the Psalmist said, "Oh God kill 'em!"

    I have true concern for the salvation of all of God's elect. I also have hopes for certain individuals to be saved and pray for them. I teach the gospel (but not 'hell-evangelism' avoiding the subject of election) hoping that God will use it for his glory. But I don't share Spurgeon's view of the reprobate world, I don't believe Christ--who refused to pray for it--shared it either.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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