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Thread: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds (of evil)

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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds (of evil)

    The sin of the elect is definitely worthy of God's wrath and condemnation. If we do not believe that, the essence of the Bible message is meaningless. I have attempted to describe above the difference in 'essence' of sin between the elect and non-elect. It is God's sovereignty manifested in BOTH the cross (the crux of history revealing God's purposes) AND creation which prevents the elect from sinning this sin. I believe that the 'image of God' manifested in the creation of the elect is involved here; my view of the meaning of 'the image of God' in creation is something I have been studying recently and is changing as we speak! More to come
    Now how this is played out in 1 John is we see a difference in the behavior of the elect and reprobate. While the elect certainly do sin, they are driven to Christ; whereas the reprobate’s sin is without repentance and only serves as a 'hardening' to the truth.
    Hi. Interesting discussion and I would like to give a view if I man and ask questions.

    I have been studying revelation in relation to OC Adam/Cain and NC Adam in Jesus Christ. For example, in reve 13, the beast causes ALL to recived the Mark, not just some. The only one in the bible showing a mark being received was Cain, the first Liar and Murderer "man" in Scripture and he is also mentioned in Hebrews.
    [If this is not suitable for this thread, please feel free to delete it, as I do like to use "revelation" a lot concerning scripture]
    Blessings.
    Gene 4: 9 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where [is] Abel your brother?" He said, "I do not know[Liar]. [Am] I my brother's keeper?" 10 And He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood[Murderer] cries out to Me from the ground. 11 "So now you [are] cursed from the earth, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. 12 "When you till the ground, it shall no longer yield itsstrength to you. A fugitive and a vagabond you shall be on the earth." 15 And the LORD said to him, "Therefore, whoever kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold." And the LORD set a mark on Cain, lest anyone finding him should kill him. 16 Then Cain went out from the presence of the LORD and dwelt in the land of Nod on the east of Eden.

    Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

    Revelation 13:16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads,
    What is interesting, Zech 14 specifically shows "canaanite/merchant" never being in the house of the Lord. This would of course be the unbelieving reprobate, what about believers that murder or lie or sin? Do "unbelieving sinners" get treated differently than "believing sinners"?Could this mean that God will have mercy eventually on all the "canaaites"?
    John 9:40 Then [some] of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, "Are we blind also?" 41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains.

    John 8:44 "You are of [your] father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and [does not] stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [resources,] for he is a liar and the father of it.
    Zechariah 14:21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that Day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
    "There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"

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    Moderator Eileen's Avatar
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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds (of evil)

    Mike:

    "The connection between supralapsarianism and the fact that God always acts purposefully depends on the observation that the logical order of any plan is the exact reverse of its temporal execution. The first step in any planning is the end to be achieved; then the means are decided upon, until last of all the first thing to be done is discovered."

    So with this quote are you saying this:

    The end to be achieved: An elect people to eternally fellowship with God

    The Means: Jesus Christ, the Son, crucified

    The First: Creation

    Eileen~
    "To those who have no works-phobia, I will state that you are not trembling before the gospel" Robert R. Higby

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    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds (of evil)

    Eileen, this quote is from Gordon Clark that Bob posted in the very first post of this thread. Basically, the two seeds of evil is supralapsarianism taken to its logical conclusions.

    Here is what Bob wrote for a refresher:
    And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel. (Gen. 3:15, NKJV)

    No expositor has ever questioned that this passage in scripture is the first mention in linear time of the doctrine of redemption in Christ. But how many have really examined its implications? Very few. Most brush over it with astonishingly brief exposition and go straight to other ‘more important’ considerations. But the first redemptive promise of God in linear time contains vital and eternal truths rewarding only those spirits who truly and passionately seek the One God as the author of scripture! Others will miss out. Most in previous generations have missed the implications of this passage. Most will continue to miss it for many generations to come!


    Before meditating on the purposes of God announced at the linear beginning of the history of mankind, it is imperative to first consider the revelation of God’s purposes manifested at the end of linear history. A mind accustomed to Eastern, Western, modern, and post-modern philosophy can only perceive of God's purposes as occurring in the order of time. The 'divine decrees' have to start with what is first in time and end with what is last. But if we are to understand God's plan of salvation, we must start at the final end of history and reason back to the beginning. God has purposed a final outcome. Everything that occurs prior to that ultimate goal of history happens in order to achieve it. Gordon Clark is lucid:

    Supralapsarianism, for all its insistence on a certain logical order among the divine decrees, is essentially, so it seems to us, the unobjectionable view that God controls the universe purposefully. God acts with a purpose. He has an end in view and sees the end from the beginning. Every verse in Scripture that in one way or another refers to God's manifold wisdom, every statement indicating that a prior event is for the purpose of causing a subsequent event, every mention of an eternal, all-embracing plan contributes to a teleological and therefore supralapsarian view of God's control of history . . .

    The connection between supralapsarianism and the fact that God always acts purposefully depends on the observation that the logical order of any plan is the exact reverse of its temporal execution. The first step in any planning is the end to be achieved; then the means are decided upon, until last of all the first thing to be done is discovered. The execution in time reverses the order of planning. Thus creation, since it is first in history, must be logically last in the divine decrees.
    This is my signature.

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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds (of evil)

    Yes thank you Brandon.

    So with this quote are you saying this:

    The end to be achieved: An elect people to eternally fellowship with God

    The Means: Jesus Christ, the Son, crucified

    The First: Creation


    Yes this is what I mean. Included in that though would be every thought and action of man, animal and act of 'nature' (what happens between the beginning and end). God causes and has a purpose for everything. I believe this is where the 'substance' and 'distinction' lies.


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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds (of evil)

    Very good thoughts and comments, all!

    My current thoughts are that reprobate souls, in order to serve God's ultimate purpose for them, are created with neither the ability nor capacity to understand truth. Elect souls conceived in iniquity are created with the capacity to understand truth but without natural ability. This is why regeneration is epistemological--it is simply the Holy Spirit giving enlightenment to a soul created with the capacity to know the truth. The Holy Spirit also enlightens reprobate souls without the created capacity to know truth (Heb. 6:4). But to them, the full truth of the gospel is always incomprehensible, distorted, and hated in the end.

    My thinking is still in process of formation on this.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds (of evil)

    Brandan & Mike

    I did realize that the 2 seeds was supralapsarianism taken to it's logical conclusion, hence my asking in an earlier post.....should this be taken to it's logical conclusion?

    I don't believe I had ever heard the word 'logical' used as a 'right' thinking process in reading and interpreting the scriptures until I started reading such men as Clark, Robbins, here on the forum as well and I think these men are frowned upon in our denomination. So it is a training process to tell yourself....it's ok eileen, to use logic here. I have been reading Clark's "What is Saving Faith" and "The Johannine Logos" so that has been helpful.

    Anyway, thanks for the refresher Brandan, it was timely!

    Eileen~
    "To those who have no works-phobia, I will state that you are not trembling before the gospel" Robert R. Higby

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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds (of evil)

    Oooo, Eileen you rebel! I am also reading through Clark's "What is Saving Faith". I havn't picked it up in a few weeks though, school gets me side tracked with all the studying. Its a tough read hu?


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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds (of evil)

    Here is an interlinear translation of 1 John 5:18,19 that I believe shows the error in many English bible translations:

    1 John 5:18 | oidamen <1492> (5758) {WE KNOW} oti <3754> {THAT} paV <3956> {ANYONE} o <3588> {THAT} gegennhmenoV <1080> (5772) {HAS BEEN BEGOTTEN} ek <1537> tou <3588> {OF} qeou <2316> {GOD} ouc <3756> {NOT} amartanei <264> (5719) {SINS,} all <235> {BUT} o <3588> {HE THAT} gennhqeiV <1080> (5685) {WAS BEGOTTEN} ek <1537> tou <3588> {OF} qeou <2316> {GOD} threi <5083> (5719) {KEEPS} eauton <1438> {HIMSELF,} kai <2532> {AND} o <3588> {THE} ponhroV <4190> {WICKED [ONE]} ouc <3756> aptetai <680> (5731) {DOES NOT TOUCH} autou <846> {HIM.}
    1 John 5:19 oidamen <1492> (5758) {WE KNOW} oti <3754> {THAT} ek <1537> tou <3588> {OF} qeou <2316> {GOD} esmen <2070> (5748) {WE ARE,} kai <2532> {AND} o <3588> {THE} kosmoV <2889> {WORLD} oloV <3650> {WHOLE} en <1722> {IN} tw <3588> {THE} ponhrw <4190> {WICKED [ONE]} keitai <2749> (5736) {LIES.}

    It is my firm conviction that this scripture is as clear as any on the teaching of Satan as the representitive of the reprobate--AS OPPOSED to the elect. The 'whole world' that lies in Belial is contrasted with the begotten of God. So those who are 'of their father the devil' in John 8:44 are the world of reprobates here described--not fallen mankind in general.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds (of evil)

    "...WE KNOW THAT ANYONE THAT HAS BEEN BEGOTTEN OF GOD NOT SINS, BUT HE THAT WAS BEGOTTEN OF GOD KEEPS HIMSELF, AND THE WICKED [ONE] DOES NOT TOUCH HIM. WE KNOW THAT OF GOD WE ARE, AND THE WORLD WHOLE IN THE WICKED [ONE] LIES."

    I think it's obvious from the context of this passage there is a clear distinction between the position of both the elect and the reprobate concerning who is of whom. Although there is one thing I do have a difficulty wrapping my head around, which is the following statement:
    "WE KNOW THAT ANYONE THAT HAS BEEN BEGOTTEN OF GOD NOT SINS"
    The only reconciliation I can muster is that our lives are hidden in Christ, based upon the eternal decree of God's council - that the elect have been justified righteous by imputation.

    I'm not fully confident with my understanding as the assertion appears only to be partial and does not take into consideration, aside from God's decree, what would make someone eternally reprobate

    What am I missing here?

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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds (of evil)

    John has just described the sin he has in mind in the preceeding verses: THE SIN UNTO DEATH. He that is born of God does not commit this sin. He had already stated that those born of God commit sin that is not unto death.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds (of evil)

    This sin of the rejection of the ultimate reality - HIM!

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