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Thread: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds (of evil)

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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds

    Let me clearly state that I am not aligning Bob or brandan with the "Literal Sexual offsrping serpent seed heresey" that has been espoused by some in the past. Parker, and others who propund this nonsense will have to answer to God for this blasphemy.

    The reason I posted the above article, is I believe the outcome of such belief is similiar.

    It does limit creation, and it does take responsibility away from the reprobate in regards to their sin.

    I see no harm in saying that the difference lies not in creation, but in the second Adam, this is Christ meritorious work on His sheeps behalf.


    In His Name


    Joe

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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    I see no harm in saying that the difference lies not in creation, but in the second Adam, this is Christ meritorious work on His sheeps behalf.
    Which is exactly what we're saying (in time)! Christ's seed is His sheep. Christ's work was only for His sheep not Satan's seed. Ultimately the difference is God's sovereign decree, as that is the ultimate cause of everything.
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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    Which is exactly what we're saying (in time)! Christ's seed is His sheep. Christ's work was only for His sheep not Satan's seed. Ultimately the difference is God's sovereign decree, as that is the ultimate cause of everything.

    Of course, how could I forget!!!!!! hahaha

    Your distinction appears to lie more in some eternal sin infused, or created in the reprobate Brandan. I say the difference is Gods good pleasure to send Christ for a multitude no man can number.

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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds

    And who exactly was Christ sent for? Who is this multitude? The seed of Satan? You honestly don't believe that, do you?

    Second, are not the reprobate created sinful? You seem to be denying total depravity!

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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    And who exactly was Christ sent for? Who is this multitude? The seed of Satan? You honestly don't believe that, do you?
    The multitude is the Elect brandan.

    Quote Originally Posted by dg
    Second, are not the reprobate created sinful? You seem to be denying total depravity!

    Brandan
    All are sinners. All equal of condemnation. The difference does nto lie in some unredeemable sin infused into the reprobate. Actually, God does not infuse evil/sin into anyone. The difference again lies in the fact that God purposed to save some, and damn others. Not for any other reason that that.

    The reprobate are not damned because of some eternal sin of satan. The elect are just as guilty because of their sin.

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    Lightbulb Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    The multitude is the Elect brandan.
    Are the elect not the seed of Christ? Are they not Christ's children? What about the non-elect? Are they Christ's children? If so, then you are saying Christ's children will go to hell. If they aren't Christ's children, then who'd children are they? Are they not of their Father the devil? Are they not Satan's seed?

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    All are sinners. All equal of condemnation.
    I did not deny this!

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    The difference does nto lie in some unredeemable sin
    Is not the reason people go to heaven is because their sin is not eternal because of Christ's atonement. And the reason some people go to hell is their sin IS eternal sin that has not been atoned for due to God's Sovereign Pleasure?

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    Actually, God does not infuse evil/sin into anyone.
    What is infusion anyway? Men are already sinful - no need to infuse sin in to them! However, I will not deny that they are fashioned (by God) in iniquity and that He directs all their thoughts and actions!

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    The difference again lies in the fact that God purposed to save some, and damn others. Not for any other reason that that.
    That is true - but after He purposed it, He also carried out His decree! By electing to damn some, He created them as Satan's seed. By electing to save others, He created them as Christ's seed. Christ then came and took upon Himself the penalty that was due to His children - not Satan's children!

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    The reprobate are not damned because of some eternal sin of satan. The elect are just as guilty because of their sin.
    The elect are not guilty of their sin because they have been redeemed. Their sin was only temporal. The reprobate are damned because of the eternal sin in which they were fashioned. They were not redeemed as they were not of Christ's people - EVER!
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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    Are the elect not the seed of Christ? Are they not Christ's children? What about the non-elect? Are they Christ's children? If so, then you are saying Christ's children will go to hell. If they aren't Christ's children, then who'd children are they? Are they not of their Father the devil? Are they not Satan's seed?
    All are created in the image of God correct? Whatever one determines that to mean. I am not saying Christs children will go to hell Brandan. I am saying all are created from the same lump. From God. The difference is that God determined to save some and not all.

    Look at the history of propagation. Cain Vs Abel.. Seth vs Ham, Ishamel vs Isaac, Jacob vs Esau. Some arenot atoned for and some are because God purposed that



    Quote Originally Posted by dg
    Is not the reason people go to heaven is because their sin is not eternal because of Christ's atonement. And the reason some people go to hell is their sin IS eternal sin that has not been atoned for due to God's Sovereign Pleasure?
    Their is no concept of some eternal sin in Scripture. Again, you are putting the emaphasis on some eternal sin for damnation. The difference lies in atonement and the purpose of it. Christ said He forgives ALL MANNER OF SIN. Except blashphemy of the Holy Spirit. And are you asaying some are created with that sin?



    Quote Originally Posted by dg
    That is true - but after He purposed it, He also carried out His decree! By electing to damn some, He created them as Satan's seed. By electing to save others, He created them as Christ's seed. Christ then came and took upon Himself the penalty that was due to His children - not Satan's children!
    The creation does nto determine the outcome. The outcome, the end is looked at forst, then God creates

    Quote Originally Posted by dg
    The elect are not guilty of their sin because they have been redeemed. Their sin was only temporal. The reprobate are damned because of the eternal sin in which they were fashioned. They were not redeemed as they were not of Christ's people - EVER!

    BINGO!!! That is my point, God did not have to redeem anyone Brandan. All are guilty without Christ. Not because of some eternal sin of satan

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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    BINGO!!! That is my point, God did not have to redeem anyone Brandan.
    What kind of talk is this? THIS IS silly. God DID have to redeem His people because that is exactly what He decreed to do! This is clearly infralapsarian/arminian thought that is being displayed by you here, Joe. This assumes that God was passive and selected individuals to redeem as opposed to God creating an elect people for the PURPOSE of redeeming them from sin which is true supralapsarianism.
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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    What kind of talk is this? THIS IS silly. God DID have to redeem His people because that is exactly what He decreed to do! This is clearly infralapsarian/arminian thought that is being displayed by you here, Joe. This assumes that God was passive and selected individuals to redeem as opposed to God creating an elect people for the PURPOSE of redeeming them from sin which is true supralapsarianism.

    Brandan RELAX!!!!!

    I meant if God purposed not to save ANYONE in His eternal Council, who could complain? That is my point. We are all guilty as sinners. But by His mercy, He DID purpose to redeem a peoples from the world.

    Through the atonement and final sacrafice of Christ.

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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds

    Let me ask this question also.


    DO you believe God decreed to create first, then covenant with the Godhead, or Covenant first, then decree to create?

    I gues what I am asking is this:

    Did God Cov with the Son And Spirit in regards to Salvation, then decree to create to save?

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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds

    I believe the order of the decrees is simply the reverse order in which they are carried out. For example, the last thing we know of that will occur in Scripture is God will be glorified in the new heavens and the new earth. Before that is the resurrection of the dead. Before that is Christ's redemption. Before that was the fall of Adam's elect descendents. Before that was the creation of the world - thus being the last in the order decrees.

    Gordon Clark wrote (and it's in that article that Bob wrote):
    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Clark
    Supralapsarianism, for all its insistence on a certain logical order among the divine decrees, is essentially, so it seems to us, the unobjectionable view that God controls the universe purposefully. God acts with a purpose. He has an end in view and sees the end from the beginning. Every verse in Scripture that in one way or another refers to God's manifold wisdom, every statement indicating that a prior event is for the purpose of causing a subsequent event, every mention of an eternal, all-embracing plan contributes to a teleological and therefore supralapsarian view of God's control of history . . .

    The connection between supralapsarianism and the fact that God always acts purposefully depends on the observation that
    the logical order of any plan is the exact reverse of its temporal execution. The first step in any planning is the end to be achieved; then the means are decided upon, until last of all the first thing to be done is discovered. The execution in time reverses the order of planning. Thus creation, since it is first in history, must be logically last in the divine decrees.
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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds

    I dont know if my question is clear then. I understand what you said above.

    Let me try it this way.

    When The Triune Godhead existed alone. DId He covenant to have Christ die for His chosen, then decide to create. OR did he decide to create then decree redemption

    I guess it would have to be the first, for one to be elect, the must have already been seen as reddemed then.. I think I answered my pwn quesiton sorry

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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds

    And you just asserted justification from eternity! If the elect were already seen as redeemed in eternity (as you just stated), then they must have been seen as righteous. God decreed first to redeem and justify before He decreed to create (logically speaking).
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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    And you just asserted justification from eternity! If the elect were already seen as redeemed in eternity (as you just stated), then they must have been seen as righteous. God decreed first to redeem and justify before He decreed to create (logically speaking).

    Well for one to be elct, one has to be elect of something.

    God could not just call some elect and others reprobate without a purpose.

    To simplyfy what i am saying, is in eternity, before the foundations of thew world, before anything other than God existed, He said,

    Son, you will die for certain people I will create. OThers will perish. The spirit promised to regenerate those and convert.Once that was ratified, He then created the peoples.

    I think it is more proper to say JFE, instead of JIE.

    Anyway, JIE, leaves out the work of the SPirit, which I do not know is possible. He cannot regenerate and convert those nto born. But Lets not digress to that again Brandan.

    The eternal covenenat must have been the first decree then.

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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds

    BK.. What do you think of this article?


    http://www.stargods.org/Seed_QA.html

    Not their ridiculous literal sexual offsrping, but the premise of the article does seem to coincide with what you and bob speal of. If I am wrong, please show me

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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds

    Where in the world do you find such websites! LOL Look at this link! http://stargods.org/WebLinks.htm

    I've been reading their material - WHAOH! Anyway, sadly, there is a some truth in what they say - but it is mostly error. They act as if they know who the reprobate are around us. That site is BLASPHEMOUS!

    There were some truthful propositions in that article - for example, they wrote:
    Are people that are of the seed of Satan predestined to hell? Yes. .... there is so [sic] salvation for these people. They did not decide to become evil, they were evil from birth.

    So what you are saying is that all people that are of the seed of satan go to hell? You mean to tell me that they have no choice?
    Yes. People think this is so strange that the people born evil go to hell. But it is no stranger than people going to hell because of making a bad discision People of the seed of satan are born evil. By nature there is nothing in them that would ever come to or submit to Jesus Christ. By nature they are evil.
    However I must mention, the elect too also by nature would never submit to Christ if not for the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit.

    Most of the other stuff is AWFUL! For example they wrote:
    When a person is born of the Adamic bloodline, they are predestined for salvation.
    WRONG! Men are predestined for salvation long before they were born of Adam. Being born of Adam (spiritually - not physically as all men are descended from Adam) is a RESULT of God's predetermining Grace.

    I would never recommend that article for edification. It is disgusting and against the Gospel of Christ!
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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    Where in the world do you find such websites! LOL Look at this link! http://stargods.org/WebLinks.htm

    I've been reading their material - WHAOH! Anyway, sadly, there is a some truth in what they say - but it is mostly error. They act as if they know who the reprobate are around us. That site is BLASPHEMOUS!

    There were some truthful propositions in that article - for example, they wrote: However I must mention, the elect too also by nature would never submit to Christ if not for the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit.

    Most of the other stuff is AWFUL! For example they wrote: WRONG! Men are predestined for salvation long before they were born of Adam. Being born of Adam (spiritually - not physically as all men are descended from Adam) is a RESULT of God's predetermining Grace.

    I would never recommend that article for edification. It is disgusting and against the Gospel of Christ!

    LOLOL. I almost choked laughing. I knew you would respond as such.

    I gleaned the principles and found them similiar. I did nto even look at the rest of the site.

    Even the semantics you say are wrong, are still in line somewhat.

    You say all the elect are in Adam, that is basically what they are saying brandan.

    All the reprobate are not in Adam.

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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds

    My regrets, brethren, that I have not been able to participate for several days due to overtime at work and commitments at home.

    Thanks, Brandan, for your expression of confidence in my ministry! What you had to say was kind but also a hard lot to live up to! I gave up being a 'theologian' in the respected sense 25 years ago when decided not to go on in theological graduate education after being fired by my church employer. At that time I believed that the scriptural command to support one's family took precedent over funding my own Doctorate and avoiding education for a 'paying' career. I knew that theology would never provide a living without conformity to stupid dogma and practice. Therefore, since then I have learned strictly from personal study on my own time. This has proven far more valuable than any theological education. It is not that I know more Greek and Hebrew than the scholars, no way--I'm a novice! But the conclusions I have come to from scripture are not dependent on the tense of language in individual scriptures or any such thing. It is the WHOLE of scripture that counts in evauating truth.

    Well, back to the 'seeds'. Let me state at the outset that I support a doctrine of THREE SEEDS, NOT TWO! It is the TWO SEEDS OF EVIL that is under discussion. The third and most important seed is the 'seed of God' in regeneration. Our differences with Parkerism are more far more pronounced and definite than those with Spurgeonism. Parkerism in essence denies the gospel; Spurgeonism dilutes and distorts the gospel. That is the difference. On the matter of the sin of the elect from an EXPERIENTIAL standpoint, we agree with Spurgeonism completely. In no way do we want to detract from the seriousness of the sin and rebellion of ALL mankind against God. The sin of the elect before conversion is completely deserving of God's wrath and damnation. Christ is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world for SINNERS--horrible, black, and hopeless sinners! Transcendent of time, God determined to plunge the elect into guilt and sin with Christ's atonement alone as the only possible deliverance!

    It is on the nature of the sin of REPROBATES that we differ from Spurgeonism. Not on the nature of the sin of saints prior to regeneration. That is PARAMOUNT! We deny that reprobates are created in a state of soul that might experience salvation. Spurgeonism teaches that all souls MIGHT be saved but that God only elects to save some. That is the doctrine we renounce.

    The heritage of Adam is SIN AND REBELLION, not righteousness. But it is a different essence of sin and rebellion than the heritage of Satan. That is why I firmly teach and believe in two seeds of evil.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds

    Thanks Bob. Joe, does that clear up any confusion? In experience the elect are no different in sin than the reprobate. What Bob and I are saying though is that the reprobate are created without the possibility of regeneration (why this is so hard for people I believe is because of infra thought). The elect are created for the purpose of sinning (just the same as the reprobate) and being regenerated. The difference in sin is the elect's sin is temporal (this should be obvious as the reprobate do get converted) and the reprobate never stop sinning. In hell, for eternity they will curse God and be unable to repent. They are never redeemed nor had the potential of being redeemed from their sin. Thus their sin was eternal.

    What Bob had to say was right on the nature of experiential sin of the two seeds of evil. Both are VERY VERY VERY BAD and identical in nature experimentally. There is difference from an eternal aspect. Adam's sin is temporal. Satan's is eternal. That is the difference! Adam's seed were always seen as righteous even in their rebellion (because of Christ). Satan's seed was never and has always been held in contempt.

    The third seed is the seed of God in regeneration. These people are converted only from the spiritual seed of Adam into God's kingdom (experientially). Esentially, however, they have always been God's children. Only in experience (before conversion) were they like the seed of Satan. Eternally, however, they have always been viewed in loving kindness and as if they were not sinners at all!

    I do hope this helps clarify the issue.
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    Re: Bob's Article: The Two Seeds

    Again I am entering a discussion that I would prefer to stay out but in view of the last posts above, both from Bob and Brandan, who have blown the fog away and cleared up to Joe his doubts, let me comment briefly on something:
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    Thanks Bob. Joe, does that clear up any confusion? In experience the elect are no different in sin than the reprobate. What Bob and I are saying though is that the reprobate are created without the possibility of regeneration (why this is so hard for people I believe is because of infra thought). The elect are created for the purpose of sinning (just the same as the reprobate) and being regenerated.
    Any notion proposing that the reprobate are "savable" or "has the possibility of regeneration", or any infralapsarian idea that the reprobate MIGHT be saved makes God the worst despot that ever commanded eternity in that He sends to hell "savable" people not out of a Sovereign act but of an "unbased SELECTION act". Note the word SELECTION. The Bible and most of us here is this Forum REFUSE the concept of a SELECTING God, or SELECTION as it is totally unbiblical. We defend ELECTION!

    Many lose sight of the VERY IMPORTANT words the Bible uses and its purposes in the whole context of the Word left by God for our understanding.
    The terms "appointed to salvation, ordained to salvation, elected, chosen" and related words in the Bible indicate just what they mean and in context they reinforce God's decrees and Sovereignty and NOT GOD'S WHIM! We believe in ELECTION, and double predestination, and NOT SELECTION!

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