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Thread: A Fresh Look at Spanking

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias Crisp
    Hey LOJ, I don't know if you aimed this at Brandan but on many of these "ethical" issues he would be in substantial agreement with you. Brandan is not necessarily about being "anti" everything. I know he sometimes comes across that way.
    It was aimed at anyone and everyone offering more than what is necessary for these topics. Including myself.

    I dont mind Biblical Ethics. Many are important topics. But when they become "pet Doctrines" it takes the focus off of Christ and Him crucified. There is a place for these topics, but I am laughin because a lot of energy and time has been spent on debating them here lately!!!!!!!!

    Christ did not spend too much time on these and neither should we. But I will mention the perverbial dominoe effect these authors or people use when it comes to ethical issues. You smoke? Well then you hate God and deny the virgin birth. You spank? well Rod does not mean this or that. You deny the incarnation!!!! You watch drama, oh goodness, you free willy heathen!!!!!!!!!!!!

    And then turn around and destroy Olsteen for his topics!!!!!!!


    Brandan anti everything? Brandan Kraft, the admin here? The Cardinals fan? Not that Brandan!!!!!!!!!! LOL


    Joe

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Joe, while i agree that many a times discussion of these can or cannots for christians have the overall effect of drawing attention away from Jesus Christ, i think you need to be careful about being too condemning of these discussions.

    The main message of the bible can be divided into two broad categories, i think;

    1. Jesus Christ has saved you,

    2. Now live for him until he returns.

    While the gospel should always be the focus for christians, sometimes in order to live for Christ we need to know what he wants and requires, and this needs study of the rest of the bible.

    While it is true that we as christians have the spirit of God within us to guide us, we are also still in our sinful flesh. Sometimes we do need the word of God to tell us what we are to do.

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Quote Originally Posted by Lammy
    Joe, while i agree that many a times discussion of these can or cannots for christians have the overall effect of drawing attention away from Jesus Christ, i think you need to be careful about being too condemning of these discussions.

    The main message of the bible can be divided into two broad categories, i think;

    1. Jesus Christ has saved you,

    2. Now live for him until he returns.

    While the gospel should always be the focus for christians, sometimes in order to live for Christ we need to know what he wants and requires, and this needs study of the rest of the bible.

    While it is true that we as christians have the spirit of God within us to guide us, we are also still in our sinful flesh. Sometimes we do need the word of God to tell us what we are to do.
    Lammy, of course I agree. I am not condmening, I am not considering such ethical topic as the "morality barometer" of the Word. We can discuss driiving over the speed limit, drinking soda, grass clippins etc etc etc. These inevitably become pet doctrines of man made standards that are equated as Gods eternal Laws. Plus i was heated yesterday and balancing that with som humor.

    Oh wait, are we to be humorous? OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOO some laugh too much, they deny creationism in the image of God!!!!!!!


    Joe

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Joe, you are too funny!
    Anthony Lawson, sinner saved by imputed righteousness

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Dear Darth

    I had thought of leaving off the last S to aviod that implication because that was not what I intended to communicate. I would like to focus on the Simple part.

    As for my appeal to tradition, I ment that it was universal in that a physical spanking interpretation is cross denominational and very historic, both of which do add authority to the argument.

    These verse are in very plain and simple wording. One does not need to know greek to understand them.

    This is a very important subject I hope my previous attempt at brevity has not taken away from the solimnity that it requires, I am sorry if I have.

    Let me focus on the verse from Hebrews 12:
    5: And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
    6: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
    7: If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
    8: But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
    9: Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
    10: For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
    11: Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

    When our fathers spanked us, did we enjoy it? No. Why not? Because it Hurt. It hurt so much it was "grievous". Standing in the corner is not "grievous" Do you fear the LORD? Why? Becuse He can create an evil upon you for not fearing Him and then mock at your prayers for deliverance before He casts you into an eternal Hell! Any study on reprobation should inspire a great deal of being afriad "fear" of God. It should make us love Christ all the more for saving us from such wrath.

    I hope to provide a soft answer so that you will respond to the true merits of my first post.

    1. In a concrete and practical interpretation of:Prov:23:13: Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. and also;Prov:20:30: The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.
    Where does the blueness of a wound come from? How do they get stripes?

    2. It says the Lord "scourgeth every son..." The word scourgeth is the same as in Matt. 23:34 "and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:" So how can Hebrew 12:6 etc. mean anything else than a physical beating?
    A fathers physical spanking is shown as a type of the training from the LORD. If rod does not mean a means of inflicting pain on that nicely padded part of the rear that God made for that purpose, then what does scourge mean?
    You said that you have never been beat by the Lord. Have you ever had a some calamity from his hand that brought a most bitter repentance? Have you ever had a dark night of the soul that makes you shutter at the thought of going through anouther one? My friend, I have many "stripes" from the lord, yet I love ever so much for them.

    Beside, I have much experience and can testity to the fact that whippin the fire out of my child works. The single best advice I have every recieved was "spank harder!" My children love me and are very happy. Make your children happy and spank them.

    I am sorry for lack of posting etiquette, I am new to this and ask your forgiveness at any offence taken.

    Thank you and I enjoy the site.

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Jerred,

    Brandan will respond when he has time I'm sure. The purpose of my post is not to examine the merits of Brandan's views. I've already briefly mentioned my views in this thread. But, I did want to comment on two things you said.

    Quote Originally Posted by baptistyancey
    As for my appeal to tradition, I ment that it was universal in that a physical spanking interpretation is cross denominational and very historic, both of which do add authority to the argument.
    Actually tradition should inform not dictate. When we do theology, when formulating what we believe on any particular matter the issue of tradition should be examined. We often find history being repeated because it's not examined. But, the same tradition/history should never dictate our theology. There are many traditions that have no basis in the theology of the Scriptures: baptismal regeneration is one that is found very early and nearly universal. Another is related to the Lord's supper, most of tradition has us eating a small piece of cracker or unleavened bread and a thimble full of wine (or worse grape juice), when in fact the Lord's supper was a full meal which began with the breaking of bread and ended with the drinking of the wine. Add to this the heresis surrounding the "real presence" of Christ in the elements. So, again, history should not be ignored but nor should it determine what we beleive or even it's parameters. Tradition does not add "authority" it may add "credibility" to an argument, but nothing more.

    Quote Originally Posted by baptistyancey
    This is a very important subject
    Sorry, but I do not believe that this issue is an "important subject" at all. It is a secondary issue at best and at worse a distraction to the more important issues of the Gospel.
    Anthony Lawson, sinner saved by imputed righteousness

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Anthony: Tradition does not add "authority" it may add "credibility" to an argument, but nothing more.

    Amen and amen! You have nailed it on this one. Tradition is never an absolute basis of accepting a belief no matter how many have supported it in the past. But the wisdom of the past (particularly that of sovereign grace believers) certainly needs to be consulted--since it has proved to be correct on the majority of issues!

    On this issue (material discipline of children) my differences with past and present expositors are primarily exegetical, not practical. We all end up with the same conclusions on MOST (but not all) of the propositions involved.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias Crisp
    Sorry, but I do not believe that this issue is an "important subject" at all. It is a secondary issue at best and at worse a distraction to the more important issues of the Gospel.
    Thank you Anthony - I agree completely on all of the points you have made. I am honestly quite sick of people telling me how important it is to know these passages teach spanking as the official and primary discipline method for children. Like I said before, I have seen whole sermons as well as whole "men's meetings" and other gatherings devoted to this non-gospel issue.

    Brandan
    This is my signature.

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    Spanking gives us an insight into the character of God! Heb. 12

    Besides, it is commanded is scripture, what other commands are O.K. to ignore?

    p.s

    Tradition should absolutly be taken into account.

    2Thes:2:15: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

    2Thes:3:6: Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

    ICor 11:1: Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
    2: Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances,(traditions) as I delivered them to you.

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Quote Originally Posted by baptistyancey
    Spanking gives us an insight into the character of God! Heb. 12

    Besides, it is commanded is scripture, what other commands are O.K. to ignore?
    How and where? How does an ethical standard decided upon? Read the article I posted.

    To an Amish, everything I do would have the appearance of EVIL. Who becomes the barometer?

    Again you are making a minor into a major.

    And Paul would not have spoken anything other that was different than what he penned. You actually sound RCC!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Does Paul speak of spanking?

    Look, you wanna spank? Go ahead. I do at times. Not because I find some eternal law of God commanding a timeless principle in scripture, but I find discipline necessary for my kids and in line within his Word.


    Joe

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Quote Originally Posted by baptistyancey
    Spanking gives us an insight into the character of God! Heb. 12

    Besides, it is commanded is scripture, what other commands are O.K. to ignore?

    p.s

    Tradition should absolutly be taken into account.

    2Thes:2:15: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

    2Thes:3:6: Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

    ICor 11:1: Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
    2: Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances,(traditions) as I delivered them to you.
    Wow, I guess I should be roman catholic! Ya know, the majority of people hate God, should I follow this tradition?

    Your passages actually prove my point because they refer to GOSPEL tradition handed down in the Scriptures themselves. Do we depart from the Gospel message to devote time to teaching the importance of spanking? NO!

    I don't mean to disprespect you, but I have never seen a more pathetic display of quoting scripture to prove a non-gospel point in all my life. What do you have to say about this passage?

    .... Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. - Mt 15:6b


    Who am I having a conversation with here, a calvinist or a crazy free willer? This is what you sound like to me: "Hey, it says WORLD!! DUH John 3:16 - it say da world! You crazy man - on drugs or sumthin' cause it's the plain understanding of this passage and like man, everyone else agrees with me therefore I'm right - you're wrong - end of discussion!"
    This is my signature.

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Well I must say this is interesting (sorta) ... hope everyone is well and hope to return with some regularity shortly and give you my "two cents" worth again hahaha ... as far as the spanking issue goes I think it like everything else can be used to the "Glory of God" and be abused and an excuse to over discipline children. hmmmm who determines that one ... i guess society ... hahaha ... just kidding ... luv you guys and missed ya ... Out for now J
    It is what it is

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    Wow, I guess I should be roman catholic! Ya know, the majority of people hate God, should I follow this tradition?

    Would this be a Red Herring or a Non -Sequitur?
    I thought we were talking about spanking?

    Your passages actually prove my point because they refer to GOSPEL tradition handed down in the Scriptures themselves. Do we depart from the Gospel message to devote time to teaching the importance of spanking? NO!

    I don't know, ask Eli or Samuel if a sermon on spanking would have done them good?

    actually, one of the verses (I Cor 11) is in reference to the christian woman's head covering.

    I don't mean to disprespect you, but I have never seen a more pathetic display of quoting scripture to prove a non-gospel point in all my life. What do you have to say about this passage?

    Never a more pathetic? What about II thess. 2:7 Showing the pre-trib rapture of the siants, That is pretty bad too.

    Why have you not addressed the two REAL pionts I made in post #45? My appeal to tradition was a minor one. (How does the tradition of spanking contradict the word of God?)

    .... Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. - Mt 15:6b

    Which commandment of God?

    Who am I having a conversation with here, a calvinist or a crazy free willer? This is what you sound like to me: "Hey, it says WORLD!! DUH John 3:16 - it say da world! You crazy man - on drugs or sumthin' cause it's the plain understanding of this passage and like man, everyone else agrees with me therefore I'm right - you're wrong - end of discussion!"


    I guess this is what you mean by Ad Hominim. I thought I was very respectful and was sorry at any impoliteness. A quick look at my profile that I filled should tell you basically what I believe, thank you for taking the time to look it up. I also enjoy this forum for dicussing different issues in a Christian and Christlike manner. I also enjoy how there is not a deep animostiy towards anyone who disagrees on "non-gospel" issues. I mean you posted a thread on spanking and who would in this modern and progressive age dare to post that he (like John Gill) actually believes the bible sanctions giving a rebellious, Christ hating unregenerate child a few swats on his back side? Though I was very offended at your imature post I forgive you as Christ forgave me. I will be interested in your reply unfortunately I will not be back tou your site. (except for the Trinity Hymnal part).

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Quote Originally Posted by baptistyancey
    I will be interested in your reply
    I don't believe you, because you wrote:
    Quote Originally Posted by baptistyancey
    unfortunately I will not be back tou your site. (except for the Trinity Hymnal part).
    This is my signature.

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    All this considered, it is very crucial that we do not become party in any way to the fascist mainstream of the current age that wants to TAKE AWAY the liberty of parents to discipline as they see fit. The wisdom of the ages is FOR a certain level of material discipline (though NEVER abuse), NOT against it. I don't think we can afford to lose sight of this important fact! Extreme violations do not cancel sane and balanced commitment to sound princple. There are millions of parents today who take the 'easy road' and eliminate ANY practice of physical displine from their training of children!
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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