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Thread: A Fresh Look at Spanking

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Some folks that have commented have done just that-commented
    I was wondering if anyone could deal with the actual word "rod" and scripture.
    I read awhile back AW Pink's article on the word "kosmos" and the translated word "world" and how it is used differently in the bible. So how many words are we just assuming the meanning of based on poor translation, lack of context, or regional use of the word. I thought for years that rod meant the whole spanking thing. Now, it looks like it probably doesn't mean a "small, paddle like instrument." I think more of the issue Darth is trying to convey is
    NOT whether you spank or don't but "does scripture teach the specific discipline form of spanking?" Does it teach against it? Is it SILENT on spanking(not discipline) Most have not dealt with the questions at hand other than to just repeat the scripture and say that it means to spank, or maybe quote some other scripture that really isn't relevent to what is being asked. BILL TWISSE, WILDBOAR, and any other folks that seem to be knowledgeable with the ins and outs of translations, specific words, etc. I am very interested to hear what you may have to say about these scriptures and what they mean, if you have the inclination to do so. I guess this isn't the most polite thing to say, but I am really not interested in OPINIONS or PREACHING on SPANKING-hahaha Believe me, I have been "preached at" enough on the subject.
    Thanks

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    The analogy between the kosmos as every person who ever lived and the shebet as a rod fails simply because kosmos doesn't mean every person who ever lived but shebet does mean rod. Most generically kosmos means a well ordered arrangement. You won't open any Greek lexicon and look under kosmos and find the definition of every person who ever lived or ever will live. A shebet is a rod. I think A.W. Pink's comments can sometimes be misleading in his appendix. I agree with the general result but we shouldn't look at each of these catagories as different definitions of kosmos.

    Here is the listing from BDB (the classic standard lexicon) showing the uses of shebet:


    B9637
    jb,ve (page 987) (Strong 7626)
    jb,ve:189 n.m.:Nu24,17 (f.:Ez 21,15,18 but corrupt) : 1. rod, staff, club, sceptre. 2. tribe ; v abs. Gn 49:10+, cstr. 1 S 10:20 +; j,v+' Dt 1:23 +; sf Ajb.vi Ju 21:24+, etc.; pl. ~yjib'v. 1K 11:31 +, cstr. yjeb.vi Gn49:16 +, sf ^yj,b'v. Dt 12:14 +, etc.; 1.a. rod, staff (evidently common article), for smiting (esp.Vb; hK'hi) Ex 21:20 (E), Mi 4:l4 Is 10:15 (in sim.; || hJ,m;), Pr 10:13 +; rs'Wm v cf. 29:15; for beating (jb;x') cummin Is 28:27 (|| hJ,m;); as (inferior) weapon (opp. tynIx]) 2 S 23:21= 1 Ch 11:3 (cf.lQem; 1 S 17:40;17:43); fig. of y's chastisement: national Is 10:24 30:31 (both || hJ,m;), 14:29, yPia; v 10:5 Atr'b.[, v La 3:1; individual Jb 9:34 21:9 (H;Ala/ v), 37:13, 2 S 7:14 (~yvin"a] v, i.e. not in-human), Psalm 89:33 (both || ~y[ig"n>). b. shaft, i.e. spear, dart, 2 S 18:14, but < read ~yxil'v. LXX be,lh Th We Kit HPS Bu. c. shepherd's implement, club, Psalm 23:4 (|| tn<[,v.mi), vb. h[er> Mi 7:14 (both fig. of y); used in mustering or counting sheep Ez 20:37 (fig.), Lv 27:32 (cf. Je 33:13), v. Mackie:Hast. DB RoD d. truncheon, sceptre, mark of authority, rpeso v Ju 5:14, ~yliv.m v Is 14:5 (|| hJ,m;), Gn 49:10 (poem in J; (|| qqehom.), Zc 10:11 (Psalm 45:7; 45:7 Ez 19:11;19:14 (made from a branch, hJ,m;); a ruler is v xmeAT Am 1:5; 1:8; as symbol of conquest Nu 24:17 (JE); lz<r>B; v Psalm 2:9 (of Mess. king);[v;r,h' v 125:3; Atr'b.[, v Pr 22:8 (si vera l., cf. Frankenb. Toy). Vid. hJ,m;, lQem;, tn<[,v.mi. 2. 145:tribe (syn.hJ,m;, q.v. 3, p. 641:b), esp. a. of (12) tribes of Israel, Gn 49:16; 49:28 (poem in J), Dt 33:5 (poem), Ex 24:4 (E), + oft. [JE 13 t., D 28 t. (hJ,m; JED), P 9 t. (cf. Gray Nu 4, 18; m 150 t. + in P); Ju 15 t. (never m), S 14 t. (never m), K 13 t,. (m 2 t.), Chr 15 t. (m 23 t.), PsalmPsalm, 7 t. (never m), proph. 16 t. (m Hb 3:9, very dub.)]; Ju 20:12 1 S 9:21 rd. jb,ve (or yjib.vi Ges: 90 I, We Sta: 343 e Dr, for yjeb.vi), Vrss (GFM:Ju); Hy"-yjeb.vi Psalm 122:4; 242't+,l'x]n: yjeb.vi Is 63:17. b. sg. of people (of Judah, late) Psalm 74:2, but Je 10:16 = 51:19 del. n v Gf Gie Du. c. of subdivision of tribe, wgw tAxP.v.mi v Nu 4:18 (P). 2 S 7:7 rd. yjep.vo (cf. v:11, 1 Ch 17:6, Ew Th We Dr HPS Bu al.)
    Here's the listing from HALOT (a modern standard lexicon):

    Hal9319
    jb,ve

    jb,ve
    : ? *jbv (? Bauer-Leander Heb. 459b, 460g); Secunda sabt Ps 8933 (Brnno Morph. 145); SamP. sabat; MHeb. jb,ve: 1) rod; 2) tribe, equivalent to JArm. aj'b.vi, also ajbwX (Samaritan hjbX), aj'b.vu (Dalman Wb. 413); DSS (Kuhn Konkordanz 216): a) jbX,, ~yjbX tribe, tribes; b) jbXh Dam. 7:19f a (the) sceptre (line 19 corresponding to Nu 2417), see Lohse Qumran 80f, and Maier Texte 1:56; BArm. *jb;v. or *jbev., here also for the other Arm. dialects; Akk. sabbitu rod, sceptre, staff (AHw. 1119b; CAD S/1, 10a: sabbitu A); hattu(m) II is used with the same meaning (AHw. 337; CAD H, 153); OSArb. sbt (Conti Rossini Chrest. 193a) beating with a rod, blow, stroke, (Beeston Sabaic Dictionary 123); Egyptian sbd (Erman-Grapow Wb. 4: 442) corresponding to sa-ba-t (Albright Vocalization 39); Coptic sbot stick (Crum Coptic Dictionary 554): jbev', sf. $'j,k'j.b.vi, Ajb.vi, pl. ~yjib'v., cstr. yjeb.vi, sf. $'yj,b'v., wyj'b'v., h'yj,b'v., ~h,mk,yjeb.vi (190 times, see THAT 2: 318f): stick, rod.

    It should be noted that in General Semitic the basic meaning of jb,ve is stick, staff, sceptre (see below 1a). The sbst. then develops in meaning from "the sceptre of authority" (1d) to signify a group of people under the command of "the one who holds the sceptre" (jb,ve $.meAT Am 15.8, cf. REB: sceptred ruler), people who have a blood relationship with one another (see below 2), on which see Rost Die Vorstufen von Kirche und Synagoge im Alten Testament (BWANT 76 (1938) 41f). On jb,ve and its connections with the synonym hJ,m; see Johnstone Ugaritica 6 (1969) 312f: hJ,m;ve is used in connection with the displaced tribes, while hJ,m; is used for all those settled in their own territory, as especially in Joshua.

    Bibliography: a) on the first meaning, rod: Willesen JSS 3 (1958) 327-35; Reicke-Rost Hw. 2234; Wildberger Jes. 375; Wilhelmi VT 27 (1977) 199f; IDB 4: 234f, 438f; Keel Bildsymb. 312, 313, 332; b) on the second meaning, tribe: de Vaux Inst. 1, 17ff = Lebensord. 1: 20ff; Reicke-Rost Hw. 1851; IDB 4: 698-710 (all with bibliography); cf. also Pedersen Isr. 1-2, 29ff.

    1. rod: aa) in general Ex 2120 Is 1015 Mi 414; b) a rod with which to beat out cummin seed Is 2827b, on which see Dalman Arbeit 3: 92f; Kaiser Jes. 13-39 208; Wildberger Jes. 1094; g) a rod as a weapon, used in pl. ~yjib'v. spears (NRSV), or javelins (REB) 2S 1814, with which the trapped Absalom was put to death, see Brown VT 21 (1971) 23 :: cj. with Sept. be,lh equivalent to ~yxil'v. (BHK, KBL); but this cj, is probably not necessary; Benaiah armed only jb,V'B; (NRSV: a staff; REB: a club) dared to attack an Egyptian armed with a spear 2S 2321; d) a rod as an instrument of punishment; the Messiah shall strike the earth with wyPi ve the rod of his mouth (NRSV; REB: "his verdict like a rod") Is 114; jb,vel. for a rod (i.e. for administering punishment) Jb 3713 :: ds,x,l. for showing favour.

    b) the shepherds staff: a) Mi 714 Ps 234; b) jb,V'h; tx;T; rb;[' to pass under the shepherds staff, meaning to count tithes Lv 2732, hif. Ezk 2037, cf. Jr 3313: a staff which is lowered after a certain number of animals (ten in Lv 2732) have passed through in front of the shepherd; one way of counting animals, see Elliger Lev. 392.

    c) the rod, or cane, of an instructor (also used by God) 2S 714 Ps 8933 Pr 1324 263 2915, cf. Atr'b.[, ve Pr 228.

    d) the rod, sceptre of the ruler Gn 4910; rpeso jb,ve Ju 514 the sovereigns sceptre, or that of an office holder, on which see Grether Deboralied 43f, and Hertzberg Jos.-Ri.-Ru. 9: 171; Is 93; ~yliv.mo jb,ve the rod of someone in authority Is 145; ~yliv.mo yjeb.vi sceptres for rulers Ezk 1911; jb,ve $.meAT the one who holds the sceptre Am 15.8.

    e) staff, rod, cane of Gods discipline H;Ala/ jb,ve Jb 219, so also Ajb.vi Jb 934; yPia; ve Is 105.

    f) rod, sceptre ~yIr;c.mi ve Zech 1011, lz<r>B; ve Ps 29 see Lemaire Avec un sceptre de Fer: Ps. ii: 9 et larchologie (BN 32 (1966) 25-30), with bibliography; $'t,WKl.m; ve rAvymi ve; let your sceptre of royalty be a sceptre of equity (cf. NRSV, REB) Ps 457, so with Kraus Ps. 486; on rAvymi ve cf. Greenfield in Albright Fschr. B 254ff: Akk. hattu isartu sceptre of righteousness (AHw. 337b; CAD H, 154b, hattu 1d); Ug. ht mtptk (Dietrich-Loretz-Sanmartin Texte 1, 2:iii:18; 6:vi:29), corresponding to Ph. htr mspth (Donner-Rllig Inschriften 1:2) the sceptre of your (his) authority; on Ug. cf. Caquot-Sznycer-Herdner Textes Oug. 124, 269; and on Ph. cf. Friedrich Phn. Gr. 234 (p. 109); [v;r,h' ve the sceptre of godlessness, meaning the godless sceptre Ps 1253; NRSV: sceptre of wickedness; REB: wicked rulers.

    g) special occurrences: laer'f.YImi jb,ve ~q'w> Nu 2417: the meaning of laer'f.YImi jb,ve ~q'w>ve here is disputed, and the Vrss. vary: Sept. a;nqrwpoj; Vulg. virga; Pesh. resa "leader"; Tg. msiha; modern suggestions include: 1) sceptre, staff of authority (cf. Samaritan Tg. variant A lqm), so e.g. ZB; Noth Nu. 150; TOB; 2) comet, in parallelism with bk'AK vs. 17b, and cf. JArm. jybev'd> ab'k.AK meteor, comet, so Gemser ZAW 43 (1925) 301f; 3) tribe, so Albright JBL 63 (1944) 219, 225: proposes as the original reading sibtema yisrael "the tribes of Israel shall rise up"; and subsequently Vetter Seherspruch 44: and the tribes of Israel rise up; 4) of these three possibilities the first has the most support, and the last the least.

    h) Ezk 2115 textual corruption, MT: Aa #[e-lK' ts,a,mo ynIB. jb,ve fyfin" "Or should we rejoice? The sceptre of my son despises every tree"; suggested cj. are given in Fohrer Ez. 121; Zimmerli Ez. 470; BHS; cf. also TOB; RSV: Or do we make mirth? You have despised the rod, my son, with everything of wood; JPS: How can we rejoice? My son, it scorns the rod and every stick; NRSV: How can we make merry? You have despised the rod and all discipline; REB (following NEB): Look the rod is brandished, my son, to defy all wooden idols.

    2. tribe :: ba' tyBe I tyIB; A 5, and hx'P'v.mi 1; cf. Rost Vorstufen 41ff.): aa) laer'f.yI yjeb.vi Gn 4916 1K 816 (42 times), jbev' rf'[' ynEv. Ex 2821 3914, wyj'b'v.li laer'f.yI Israel according to its tribes Nu 242 Jos 716, wyj'b'v.li laer'f.yIf.yI ynEb. yjeb.vi Nu 363 Jos 45; b) Atl'x]n: jb,ve laer'f.yI Israel, the tribe of his inheritance (NRSV), meaning the people he claims as his own (REB) Jr 1016 5119, see Rudolph Jer.3 72; cf. $'t,l'x]n: ve Ps 742; Hy" yjeb.vi Ps 1224.

    ba) hV,n:m. jb,ve Nu 3233 (22 times), yjeb.vi !ymiy"n>bi the tribe of Benjamin (yjeb.vi is cstr. sg. with y compaginis, see Gesenius-Kautzsch Gramm. 90 l; R. Meyer Gramm. 45.3e); ywILeh; ve Dt 108, ywIle ve Dt 181, cf. Gunneweg Leviten; b) hV'ai, vyai jb,ve, hx'P'v.mi, Dt 2917, cf. ATx.P;v.mil.W Ajb.vil. vyai each one departed by his tribe and by his family Ju 2124 (with %lh hitp.).

    c) ~yjib'v. (h'yj,b'v.) the regions of Egypt Is 1913.

    d) other instances (or alternatively cj.): a) pr. jb,ve rd. jpeAv, on which see Z. Weisman VT 28 (1978) 366: pr. laer'f.yI yjeb.vi Dt 335 2S 51 77 (cf. 1C 176) rd. laer'f.yI yjeb.vif.yI yjep.vo guides, leaders of Israel; Dt 299 pr. ~k,yjeb.vi rd. ~k,yjep.vo, see also KBL and BHS :: de Robert VT 21 (1971) 116-118 on 2S 77, who follows MT since the expression ~k,yjep.vof.yI yjep.vo is not usual; for a different view see Reid CBQ 37 (1975) 17ff: rd. yjeb.vo "sceptre-holder", pt. from the vb. *jbv.

    3. expressions with meaning 1: a) as 1a: with jbx nif. Is 2827; with dr;y" (and dr;y"V]B;) 2S 2321; with xq;l' (and APk;B. ~yjib'v.) 2S 1814; with acm hif. Jb 3713; with I @wn hif. Is 1015; with hkn hif. (and hknVeB;) Ex 2120 Mi 414, (and wyPi veB.) Is 114; with ~wr hif. Is 1015.

    b) as 1b: with ~xn pi. Ps 234; with rb;[' tx;T; 1bb; with h['r' (and $'yj,b.viB.) Mi 714.

    c) as 1c: with %f;x' Pr 1324; with xky hif. (and ~yvin"a] veB.) 2S 714; with hkn hif. (textual emendation, pr. hl,k.yI rd. WhKey:) Pr 228; with hm'k.x' !t;n" (sbj. jb,ve) Pr 2915; with dq;P' (and dq;P'veB.) Ps 8933.

    d) as 1d: with %v;m' (and rpeso veB.) Ju 514; with vg:n" Is 93; with rWs (al{) Gn 4910; with rb;v' (and ~yliv.mo ve) Is 145, (and vemo yjeb.vi) Ezk 1911; with %m;t' Am 15.8.

    e) as 1e: with rws hif. Jb 934.

    f) as 1f: with x;Wn al{ (and [v;r,h' ve) Ps 1253; with rWs (and ~yIr;c.mi ve) Zech 1011; with II [[r Ps 29.

    g) as 1g: with ~Wq Nu 2417.

    h) for expressions as 1h cf. Ezk 1215.18, see above 1h.
    Here's the entry from TWOT:


    shbe
    . Rod, staff, scepter, tribe. This noun commonly denotes a rod. It was used for beating cumin (Isa 28:27), as a weapon (2Sam 23:21), and as a shepherd's implement either to muster or count sheep (Lev 27:32; Ezek 20:37), or to protect them (Psa 23:4; Mic 7:14). In Psa 23:4 it is used metaphorically of the Lord's protection of his servant as he walks in paths of righteousness.

    The rod was also used as an instrument for either remedial or penal punishment. As a corrective instrument it was used for a slave (Exo 2 Exo 1:20), a fool (Prov 10:13; Prov 26:3), and a son (Prov 13:24; Prov 22:15; Prov 23:13-14; Prov 29:15). In Prov it is the symbol of discipline, and failure to use the preventive discipline of verbal rebuke and the corrective discipline of physical punishment will end in the child's death, Metaphorically, the Lord used Assyria as his instrument to correct Israel (Isa 10:15) and the nations to correct his wayward king (2Sam 7:14). it is also used metaphorically of penal affliction of Israel's ruler by the enemy (Mic 5:1 [H 4:14]) but the Lord's righteous King will smite the wicked with the "rod" of his word of judgment (Isa 11:4).

    In 2Sam 18:14 it refers to the shaft of a spear or dart.

    Then, too, the word denotes a sceptre, the mark of authority. The association of smiting and ruling is evident. Significantly, in Akkadian the verbal cognate shabu means to "slay, smite," and the noun shibu (= Heb shbe) means "rod, sceptre." Thus it is the symbol of rulership. Whereas the prophets predicted that the sceptre of Israel's enemies will be removed (Amos 1:5; Zech 10:11), Jacob predicted that "the sceptre shall not depart from Judah... until Shiloh come..." (Gen 49:1), and the psalmist predicted that the rule of Israel's ideal king would endure forever (Psa 45:7). These promises find their fulfilment in the Lord Jesus Christ. The close association of "smiting" and "ruling" is most obvious in the psalmist's prophecy that the Lord's King will smash the wicked, rebellious world with an iron rod (Psa 2:9, though possibly Psa 2:9 refers to shepherding or ruling the nations with a scepter of iron-cf. Psa 2:9 NIV and Rev 19:15; cf. Psa 125:3; Isa 14:5).

    Finally, the word denotes "tribe." This meaning is probably derived by association with its use to express rulership. in Num 4 it denotes the subdivisions of the tribe, but elsewhere it refers to the tribes of Israel either individually (Deut 23:1; passim) or collectively (Num 36:3, tpassim). Israel's factious tribes (cf. Jud 20, 21; 2Sam 19:9 [H 10]; 1Kings 11:31ff) will at last be united in the Kingdom (Ezek 37:19). The word, however, is never used to refer to tribes of other nations.

    The synonym maeh denotes "rod, tribe" but not "sceptre."
    Does God spank His children? Absolutely. Is He at times much more physically violent than earthly father when He disciplines them? Absolutely. Don't try to tame God. God sends cancer and madness and depression and all kinds of things as chastisement to bring his children back to him.

    It is clear from the context in Proverbs that a physical rod is meant. Denial of this is based upon the same kind of eisegesis that tries to make the Bible command women to wear long flowing dresses or to make every positive reference to wine as referring to grape juice. If you're going to quote somebody on something like this at least make sure they have some familiarity with the language. A woman armed with a strong's concordance and Matthew Henry's commentary is not a credible source.

    There are certainly many abuses of spanking. For a good Biblical treatment with practical advice that focuses on addressing the heart issues I highly recommend Shepherding a Child's Heart.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Quote Originally Posted by wb
    A shebet is a rod
    Nobody said it wasn't. What's interesting though is it isn't a twig or a branch (ie. a switch or wooden spoon LOL). It's a big ole long rod of wood!
    Quote Originally Posted by wb
    A woman armed with a strong's concordance and Matthew Henry's commentary is not a credible source.
    Fallacy! That's a red herring with a hint of ad hominem . Just because she's a woman (which by the way, what's wrong with that?!) with a strong's concordance and a mh commentary does not mean she spoke falsehood.
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    Re: Darth Gill's Column

    I personally see in this biblical teaching a justification for spanking children 'with measure' (not 'beating' without measure) when certain circumstances call for it. But there is never justification for uncontrolled spanking 'without mercy'. Discipline shoud always be administered in love and never in anger without control. Of course, we as sinful parents do not always obey this rule strictly! For that we prove ourselves as sinners and seek God's forgiveness.

    As God's discipline of his sons (and even wrath on his enemies, for that matter) is always with measure, our discipline of children should always be with measure in love and the grace of God. But there are times and situations that justify it being very discomforting!
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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    If you're going to challenge the traditional meaning of a word, you should have some knowledge of the language and not just be looking stuff up in your Strong's concordance. That was my only point. I've seen articles similar to this one copied and pasted over the internet. I have yet to see anyone cite any actual lexical evidence for the position. The question is really, are we going to let the Bible speak to us and interpret things in the most natural way or are we going to try to make the Bible say what we think it should say? If we allegorize and spiritualize everything there is no end to the number of interpretations we can come up with.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Quote Originally Posted by wb
    If we allegorize and spiritualize everything there is no end to the number of interpretations we can come up with.
    We allegorize and spiritualize things that clearly should be. If I took your position, I'd be a dispensational!
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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Quote Originally Posted by DG
    We allegorize and spiritualize things that clearly should be. If I took your position, I'd be a dispensational!
    That's not true. The dispensationalist mulls through apocolyptic literature and picks and chooses those parts which he is going to take literalistically. The introduction to Revelation speaks of symbols and the bulk of the content is not taken literalistically by anyone. The book of Revelation and the book of Proverbs are completely different genres of writing. The book of Revelation even gives an explanation for much of its symbolism in the text.

    Origen, the Qumran community, and Harold Camping spiritualize almost everything and in so doing deny the perspicuity of Scripture and make a certain interpretation impossible. The Reformed and Biblical tradition states that there is only one proper interpretation of a text and that we should always interpret the Bible literally, not literalisticallly. We should recognize figures of speech and different types of literature and how they affect usage of language but you don't just go around randomly spiritualizing things in the same way the dispensationalist actually does.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    When things are metaphorical, then it's obvious we should interpret that way. I believe these passages are metaphorical. We should all guide and and use the rod (metaphorical) of discpline on our children just as the shepherd guides his sheep with his rod. The shepherd DOES NOT beat or "spank" his sheep with his rod. It's a big long pole for crying out loud!

    Attached is a picture...

    You want literal? Then would you spank a very young child with a REAL ROD? I doubt it. If that's the case, why doesn't scripture use the hebrew word for stick or twig? I mean, isn't that more appropriate? It seems to me that you too are holding to a metaphorical meaning as well. Most spankers I know use something like a wooden spoon!

    Why don't you translate it this way?
    Prov 13:24, (KJV), He that spareth his [wooden spoon] hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Darth I am surprised you are taking the position you do. How do you plan to discipline the little one God has entrusted to you? By what method will you and your wife use to instruct, and reproof this little one when he becomes rebellious? Do you plan to use your hand on his back side? Or will you set him in a corner for a time out and verbally reprove him?

    We can go days on end trying to find out what "rod" really means, but the texts you set out with at the start of the thread seem simple enough for me to understand and adhere to without trying to find other ways the word in question is used.
    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Thanks WB and Bil Twisse for your responses

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Ray,
    Brandan is not saying that spanking is necessarily wrong, he is just saying that your(I guess) and others interpretation of the word "rod" as a SPANKING tool is incorrect. We are so influenced by tradition and puritanism, it is ridiculous. Please forget what you have been taught and research it yourself-that is what I am trying to do. I am so messed up on so much scripture I am sure. WE just want to understand as fully as possible. I realize this is a radical view within a "reformed" circle, but I have noticed reformed certainly doesn't mean "free from all puritan influence" NO WAY- I have seen too much!
    Anyway, I am guilty of this too-just don't want to be
    I don't want to discuss with you my personal discipline plan for our family, either ok?
    Thanks

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Well, this is all very interesting!

    Strangely, the discussion here is based on verses in Proverbs. Unlike the prophetic scriptures, inspired wisdom literature states timeless principles--not universal or literal rules that are strictly 'the law of God'.

    DG: If we are no longer to stone, then why do we assume we should use physical beatings to bring about repentance?

    We should NOT assume this; again, the verses in question are stating timeless principles but not absolute law governing every situation. This is why there is little use in arguing about what the physical 'rod' is in terms of a perpetual commandment! The rod can represent ALL forms of discipline; the notion is that strict discipline with genuine authority is paramount. In no way can this be interpreted to specify the exact instrument that God has commanded his people to spank their children with. Paddles and straps are used for practical reasons: a flat instrument administered to a properly positioned buttocks does not pulverize and bruise to the level of a huge round stick--but still administers the needed correction and a similar level of discomfort! The same thing can be said for a little piece of switch from a tree tapped on the thigh of a young child: it is used for practical reasons (to administer discomfort but not injury).

    In no way can the verses from Proverbs be used to justify (appropriate, non-abusive) spanking as God's only legitimate method of discipline in all situations. Many other forms of discipline are called-for in ordinary circumstances of offense. In my view, spanking is appropriate for the major offenses (deliberate lying, temper-tantrums, throwing rocks at one's sibling, etc.) and not something to be used for every form of disobedience. Some children need very few spankings, others more (depending on the level of strong-willed rebellion).

    Anyway, my thoughts for what they are worth.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    In no way can the verses from Proverbs be used to justify (appropriate, non-abusive) spanking as God's only legitimate method of discipline in all situations. Many other forms of discipline are called-for in ordinary circumstances of offense.
    Bob, thanks for your comments. I agree with what you have said here about these passages. They are not verses which support spanking as the official form of discipline as is taught in so many places; but they are verses which support discipline in general. I am not ruling out spanking entirely, but it seems that spanking as an exclusive practice is based on five passages when it should not be.
    This is my signature.

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Quote Originally Posted by BillTwisse
    Well, this is all very interesting!

    Strangely, the discussion here is based on verses in Proverbs. Unlike the prophetic scriptures, inspired wisdom literature states timeless principles--not universal or literal rules that are strictly 'the law of God'.

    DG: If we are no longer to stone, then why do we assume we should use physical beatings to bring about repentance?

    We should NOT assume this; again, the verses in question are stating timeless principles but not absolute law governing every situation. This is why there is little use in arguing about what the physical 'rod' is in terms of a perpetual commandment! The rod can represent ALL forms of discipline; the notion is that strict discipline with genuine authority is paramount. In no way can this be interpreted to specify the exact instrument that God has commanded his people to spank their children with. Paddles and straps are used for practical reasons: a flat instrument administered to a properly positioned buttocks does not pulverize and bruise to the level of a huge round stick--but still administers the needed correction and a similar level of discomfort! The same thing can be said for a little piece of switch from a tree tapped on the thigh of a young child: it is used for practical reasons (to administer discomfort but not injury).

    In no way can the verses from Proverbs be used to justify (appropriate, non-abusive) spanking as God's only legitimate method of discipline in all situations. Many other forms of discipline are called-for in ordinary circumstances of offense. In my view, spanking is appropriate for the major offenses (deliberate lying, temper-tantrums, throwing rocks at one's sibling, etc.) and not something to be used for every form of disobedience. Some children need very few spankings, others more (depending on the level of strong-willed rebellion).

    Anyway, my thoughts for what they are worth.
    Well put Bob and am in full agreement here. I reflect on the life of Jacob and how wisely our heavenly Father taught him and us in loving discipline the way that we should go.
    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Hi,
    This is my first post here and i just wanted to say that my husband and i have raised five wonderful children. We spanked them when they did something that could harm them. First time we would sit and try to explain to them what they were doing wrong and what harm could come of it. If they did it again (such as putting something in a light socket) they got a slap on the hand. And now i see my grandchild who is going to be 3 running out of the house all the time and running near the street. He is not spanked for this and continues to do this. Well there are some reasons we need to spank for the safety of them. The love abounds in our home so much so .. that they knew when we were mad and upset with them and that there usually was enough for them to say they were sorry God bless you all with children they certainly are a gift from God!

    Love, Grace

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Read the WHOLE verse.

    If the rod means anything other than a "whippin stick" then how does the child recieve "blueness of the wound"?

    Could you interpret "scourgeth" the same way you do "rod" ?

    You can not make a doctirine from a nueance of the meaning of a word. Just ask a liberal about a certain "virgin" in Isaiah.

    These verses have been plain and universal for 1900 years.

    Remember. bible doctrine 101 K.I.S.S.

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    <sarcasm> Well, since I'm STUPID as your post suggests (KISS!?) Yancey, please exegete these passages for me since you seem to have the answer. </sarcasm>

    Quote Originally Posted by baptistyancey
    These verses have been plain and universal for 1900 years.
    You need to learn some logic Yancey... I suggest you read this thread: http://www.predestinarian.net/showthread.php?t=2355

    Your fallacy is as follows:
    Appeal to tradition - trying to get someone to accept something because it has been done or believed for a long time.
    1. Example: This is the way we've always done it. Therefore, it is the right way.
    2. Example: The Catholic church's tradition demonstrates that this doctrine is true.
    This is my signature.

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Another issue that will end up in stupid arguements with no fruit. What is happening here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hahahaha
    1) spanking
    2) drama
    3) smoking

    What is next? Anti SUV's? No clothes from China? Anti capitalism? COlumubus was a killer? Christianity is not a cause. Christ had no agenda save the Kingdom of God.

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    Another issue that will end up in stupid arguements with no fruit. What is happening here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hahahaha
    1) spanking
    2) drama
    3) smoking

    What is next? Anti SUV's? No clothes from China? Anti capitalism? COlumubus was a killer? Christianity is not a cause. Christ had no agenda save the Kingdom of God.
    Hey LOJ, I don't know if you aimed this at Brandan but on many of these "ethical" issues he would be in substantial agreement with you. Brandan is not necessarily about being "anti" everything. I know he sometimes comes across that way.
    Anthony Lawson, sinner saved by imputed righteousness

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    Re: A Fresh Look at Spanking

    I'm anti anti-smoking
    I'm anti anti-drama
    and I'm anti "bible-teaches-spanking" traditionalism!
    This is my signature.

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