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Thread: Apologetics and Atheists

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    Apologetics and Atheists

    Does anyone here ever look at christian apologists trying to explain the Bible to unbelievers? After watching a few of them try to give their interpretation of Scriptures, I can see why even other christians can walk away "confused".
    I noticed many atheist apologists are actually former christians[or unbelieving jews in disguise], but because they listened to or read books outside the Bible, they became convinced that the Bible is a work of "fiction".

    It actually appears easier to argue against the Bible than it is to defend it, as again, how can the "unspiritual" understand the "spiritual", without the Holy Spirit?

    Anyway, this is an interesting discussion on Christ going up in a cloud and Stephen's vision of the Son of Man "standing" at the right hand of the Creator. Sometimes silence is better than speaking in this case LOL.
    Blessings.

    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ad.php?t=58575

    Quote: Originally posted by stevencarrwork
    Some examples of geographical errors in Acts, contrary to Layman's claim that Luke gets geography correct.

    Acts 1
    9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky?

    Heaven is not in the sky.

    Acts 7
    55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

    Where was Stephen looking when he saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God? Was he looking up to Heaven, as the Bible claims? How exactly do you look up to Heaven?

    Did he die for an hallucination?
    This is geography? First off as for your Acts 1 how do you know Jesus didn't
    go into the clouds and then when he was away from the view of the
    apostles he vanished into another dimension?

    It doesn't matter. I really don't think the author believed Heaven was just
    above the clouds. I mean they were already aware that there were vast
    amounts of stars as far as the eye could see.

    If they believed anything it would be that Heaven was beyond the sphere of
    the universe. This criticism of Acts 1 is boring and an example of
    hyperliteralism.

    Acts 7 is the same thing it doesn't matter. You've never heard of a story of
    a person dying and he says I see the angels or whatever? You want to
    believe that Stephen had an hallucination fine I can't stop you. But this
    isn't evidence against Luke's knowledge of geography.

    Your arguments show more about your reading problems than the Luke's
    geographical knowledge.
    "There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"

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    Re: Apologetics and Atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by InChristAlways
    Does anyone here ever look at christian apologists trying to explain the Bible to unbelievers? After watching a few of them try to give their interpretation of Scriptures, I can see why even other christians can walk away "confused".
    I noticed many atheist apologists are actually former christians[or unbelieving jews in disguise], but because they listened to or read books outside the Bible, they became convinced that the Bible is a work of "fiction".

    It actually appears easier to argue against the Bible than it is to defend it, as again, how can the "unspiritual" understand the "spiritual", without the Holy Spirit?

    Anyway, this is an interesting discussion on Christ going up in a cloud and Stephen's vision of the Son of Man "standing" at the right hand of the Creator. Sometimes silence is better than speaking in this case LOL.
    Blessings.

    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ad.php?t=58575
    I am not fond of apologetics. It always made me think, "What does the word of the Lord have to apologize for?" Even more so now that you include it with an atheist, which in itself is a contradiction in the highest degree. Who do they think they are fooling. Themselves? Thus I am quite fond of polemics.
    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

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    Re: Apologetics and Atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by ray kikkert
    I am not fond of apologetics. It always made me think, "What does the word of the Lord have to apologize for?" Even more so now that you include it with an atheist, which in itself is a contradiction in the highest degree. Who do they think they are fooling. Themselves? Thus I am quite fond of polemics.
    Hi rk. Good point. Kind of like climbing a metal pole with grease on it. Blessings.

    {I had to look up that word you used since I have been out of school for almost 40 yrs LOL}.

    http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

    po·lem·ic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (p-lmk)
    n.
    A controversial argument, especially one refuting or attacking a specific opinion or doctrine.

    A person engaged in or inclined to controversy, argument, or refutation.

    adj. also po·lem·i·cal (--kl) Of or relating to a controversy, argument, or refutation.
    "There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"

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    Re: Apologetics and Atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by InChristAlways
    po·lem·ic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (p-lmk)
    n.
    A controversial argument, especially one refuting or attacking a specific opinion or doctrine.

    A person engaged in or inclined to controversy, argument, or refutation.

    adj. also po·lem·i·cal (--kl) Of or relating to a controversy, argument, or refutation.
    This is a perfect portrait of you Ray.

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    Re: Apologetics and Atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    This is a perfect portrait of you Ray.
    Hi loj. What is fun to watch also is how the jews define their Messiah and in what way He is supposed to come to unbelieving Israel [I don't believe they even really know themselves].

    Just as we have "polemics" among christians, the jews also have their own "polemics" among each other concerning how the "Messiah" is suppose to come.

    This one jew responding to a christian apologist[I think], says the Messiah will come and rebuild the temple which I find kind of odd, as Solomon's temple was rebuilt without God physically coming to earth and also the one the Lord Himself would come to.
    This is one reason I can't see argueing with jews or atheists as neither one believes Jesus came.

    Just interesting to see the Bible from the other "camp's point of view" sometimes without getting involved in it.

    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...01#post1136801
    Quote: Originally posted by grubbcm
    I'm more familiar with Christianity's side of this coin. I ask again, what attributes are you expecting the Messiah to show?
    Meshiach means anointed. There are different tasks and different Messiahs for those tasks. People anointed because they are they fulfill the ideal identity for those tasks. The King of Israel is the King Messiah, the High Priest is the Priestly Messiah, etc. Even George Bush, although not a Jewish Messiah, is a type of Messiah for America. So, to answer your question, The Messiah is going to be the ruler of Israel, rules with Torah and teaches Torah, rebuilds the temple, etc. He has to be a Jew in good standing, obivously.
    Quote: Where is it that you think Jesus disquallified himself? (I'm happy for you to just refer me to a link if this is a standard question, I'm asking because I don't know and I'm curious to find out)
    Well, before we get into that, we must first have something to measure. It seems that Christianity has yet to agree on the writings about him to begin with. Some of the manuscripts vary drastically, and have huge implications, such as virgin birth, etc. So, we must first ask who he was and if he even existed, before we can get into even whether he was the Messiah or not. So far in my studies, I have yet to find an accurate manuscript or evidence to support the true identity of the man. I mentioned this earlier, but maybe it didn't sink in.
    "There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"

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    Re: Apologetics and Atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    This is a perfect portrait of you Ray.
    I cant believe this crack when un-noticed. You guys are a tough crowd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Re: Apologetics and Atheists

    Originally Posted by InChristAlways
    po·lem·ic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (p-lmk)
    n.
    A controversial argument, especially one refuting or attacking a specific opinion or doctrine.

    A person engaged in or inclined to controversy, argument, or refutation.

    adj. also po·lem·i·cal (--kl) Of or relating to a controversy, argument, or refutation.
    loj
    This is a perfect portrait of you Ray.
    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    I cant believe this crack went un-noticed. You guys are a tough crowd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    LOL. I wanted to wait until someone else commented on it. I would hate to be across the table from him "polemically" without a football uniform on
    "There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"

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    Re: Apologetics and Atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by InChristAlways
    loj
    LOL. I wanted to wait until someone else commented on it. I would hate to be across the table from him "polemically" without a football uniform on

    No Doubt Steve. And a body guard to boot!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Re: Apologetics and Atheists

    Discussion on another forum
    Well, before we get into that, we must first have something to measure. It seems that Christianity has yet to agree on the writings about him to begin with. Some of the manuscripts vary drastically, and have huge implications, such as virgin birth, etc. So, we must first ask who he was and if he even existed, before we can get into even whether he was the Messiah or not. So far in my studies, I have yet to find an accurate manuscript or evidence to support the true identity of the man. I mentioned this earlier, but maybe it didn't sink in.
    Quote: Originally posted by Theonomy
    By the way, what good evidence is there that Moses existed? Just curious.
    More evidence then J-sus, which would be uncommon since Moshe is much earlier. For instance, there are some scholars who believe this image is of the Princess Nefure and the baby Moshe and this to be an image of Moshe himself.

    Belief in Moshe is important, but not central to Judaism. However, belief in Jes-s is absolutely vital to Christianity.
    If the Body of Christ were of one mind and knowledge, how could there be either polemics or apologetics? The mose important part in christianity/church is belief and strong Faith that is of Jesus Christ. Without that, polemics is just another way of causing even more division in christianity. The OT and NT both must be believed upon without any reasonable doubt and I suppose that is why I bring up a lot of studies on the OT because the NT PROOVES the OT.

    The Body of Christ/church, made up of believers in Jesus, is already breaking one of Paul's main commands and I have seen pages of arguements on just the intepretaion of one or 2 verses.

    Now a lot of christians are using arguement against unbelieving jews concerning Abraham, Moses, ark of the covenant, Solomon's temple/palace and what proof they even existed!!!
    This is very dangerous area for christian apologists to get into and can weaken the faith of those just now coming to Jesus that view these arguements, as it can cause them to "doubt" the whole Bible [which appears to collect dust more than it is read in my humble opinion]. Blessings.

    1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I plead/beseech/exhort with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you, but [that] you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment/knowledge.

    1106 gnome gno'-may from 1097; cognition, i.e. (subjectively) opinion, or (objectively) resolve (counsel, consent, etc.):--advice, + agree, judgment, mind, purpose, will.1097 ginosko ghin-oce'-ko a prolonged form of a primary verb; to "know" (absolutely) in a great variety of applications and with many implications (as follow, with others not thus clearly expressed):--allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) know(-ledge), perceived, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand. 1108 gnosis gno'-sis from 1097; knowing (the act), i.e. (by implication) knowledge:--knowledge, science.
    "There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"

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    Re: Apologetics and Atheists

    Hi all. I saw this posted on Theology web today. A $1000 dollars being offered for a debate on the Tyre prophecy.
    Here are the links to it and also to the link to a site that discusses this "false prophecy" by Ezekiel. I would approach it "differently" than JPH does. Tyre also means "rock" coincidentally. Blessings.

    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=56417&page=1&pp=16 Previous Debate on Tyre Prophecy

    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=59396 $1000 offered for debate on Tyre Prophecy Ezekiel
    Yes thats right. Our own James Holding, also known as JP Holding is being offered $1,000 dollars by Johnny Skeptic to a formal debate on the Tyre Prophecy at the Internet Infidels Discussion Board (IIDB).I was cruising the Infidel's website for something interesting when I came across this challenge.


    http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/fprophet.html Site on the false prophecy of Tyre. Even the unbelieving "jews/JUDAISM" can't figure half the OT prophecies, otherwise they would see they are mainly against "them", the OC/OT jews rather.
    [They would rather use their pagan anti christian Talmud to help them with the OT.

    Ezekiel 26

    Perhaps the best example of a false prophecy edited into the book of a prophet,
    a false prophecy that was known to be false when the manuscript was edited, is found in the book of Ezekiel.

    "I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. They will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock.
    I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I YAHWEH have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD. "
    (Ezekiel Chapter 26

    Revelation 18:22 "The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore.
    "There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"

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