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Thread: A mistake

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    A mistake

    I apparently made a mistake in subscribing to this forum. Had I read some of the stuff posted against my pastor, Don Fortnor, I would not have done so. I was unaware of this forum and came across it surfing the net. I rad a little of it and thought I would fit in well but as I continued to read I came across those who call my friend and pastor a heretic. I simply cannot stand for this and will not return.

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    Re: A mistake

    ML, beware of his doctrine which teaches that Christ became sin by something more than imputation.
    This is my signature.

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    Re: A mistake

    Ron, this forum is about Christ. Not you, me, or even DF. Please stay and discuss the topics that interest you. If you are here to defend him, I do not believe that is necessary. THis one issue has( Christ made sin) caused dissention and should not be a barometer of this forum. I am sure you would have much to offer on the myriad of topics besides that one.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: A mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    Ron, this forum is about Christ. Not you, me, or even DF. Please stay and discuss the topics that interest you. If you are here to defend him, I do not believe that is necessary. THis one issue has( Christ made sin) caused dissention and should not be a barometer of this forum. I am sure you would have much to offer on the myriad of topics besides that one.
    I am not here to defend Don. He is quite capable of defending himself. I do not believe it is the issue you speak of that has caused dissention but men who, rather than simply disagreeing and showing why they disagree, have made themselves the judge of others and desired to place themselves as pastors over flocks God has not placed them in. These men have caused two bodies to split not over a doctrine but over their response to it. I have deliberatly kept myself out of the fray because it didn't concern me nor those in my sphere of influence. At the same time I will not be a part of a group that calls a man I dearly love and respect a heretic based on one thing he says, which I believe has been blown way out of proportion.

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    Re: A mistake

    Ron, I do hope that you would stay and contribute as you have time and would be willing to discuss some of the issues that you feel have been blown out of proportion.

    ~Anthony
    Anthony Lawson, sinner saved by imputed righteousness

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    Re: A mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias Crisp
    Ron, I do hope that you would stay and contribute as you have time and would be willing to discuss some of the issues that you feel have been blown out of proportion.

    ~Anthony
    Honestly, I am in a strait betwixt the two. While it is extremely difficult to find a place on the internet that stands for truth without reservation and in which I can speak my conscience without being attacked as a heretic immediately by God haters, I find that the one place I hoped to feel at home has labelled a man I love and respect, because I have a deep personal relationship with him, a heretic. I am truly greived in my heart and don't really know what to do. I ask your prayers in this matter.

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    Re: A mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias Crisp
    Ron, I do hope that you would stay and contribute as you have time and would be willing to discuss some of the issues that you feel have been blown out of proportion.

    ~Anthony
    Of course I have been unable to read all of the discussion on these boards concerning the teaching. What I did read seemed to me to be more a reaction from emotion rather than from a thoughtful defense or refutation of it. I got the distinct impression that people were simply taking sides based on others reactions rather than actually reasearching the issue and giving it thought. I will not nor can I speak for Don or anyone else but I will continue to pray concerning the best way to deal with the issue and how I have reacted to what I have read concerning it here. If you are willing, I would love a synopsis of how it has been dealt with by those who have posted concerning it. I really don't have time to search all of the posts to see for myself. In the meantime I will work on something that expresses my own views. Again, I earnestly desire your prayers.

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    Re: A mistake

    'Heretic' is a word thrown around loosely and we should define it properly; is it:

    1. A person teaching any wrong doctrine.
    2. A person teaching enough wrong doctrine to prove himself unsaved.
    3. A schismatic person.
    etc.

    On the issue of Christ made sin by impartation, I think that what the moderating staff came to agreement on is that such a DOCTRINE is heresy. Heresy being defined in this instance as a departure from apostolic teaching on the person and work of Jesus Christ. But the entire content of individual opinions expressed about DF himself are not necessarily representative of every moderator here.

    We never received an answer from any proponent of the 'made sin' view (including DF) on how the reality of Christ made sin is logically defined. The proponents of the view stated that we were unsaved unless we believed the doctrine as essential to the gospel--yet they could not state the doctrine logically and propositionally. The response to my demanding a propositional defense was that the truth is spiritual and goes beyond any propositions that man can state on how Christ was made sin by impartation. That response will never be acceptable to us and should not be acceptable to anyone. So we can't recommend persons as sound teachers who are not committed to a logical defense of the gospel.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: A mistake

    I apparently made a mistake in subscribing to this forum. Had I read some of the stuff posted against my pastor, Don Fortnor, I would not have done so. I was unaware of this forum and came across it surfing the net. I rad a little of it and thought I would fit in well but as I continued to read I came across those who call my friend and pastor a heretic. I simply cannot stand for this and will not return...........

    ..............I really don't have time to search all of the posts to see for myself. In the meantime I will work on something that expresses my own views. Again, I earnestly desire your prayers.
    Hi ml. And we desire your prayers. It is not about "our" views but about the view from having the Mind of Christ, and so I am Christ["anointed"]/stauros centered.
    I also believe, in my humble view, that whenever scripture is quoted, it should be as "accurate" as possible, as even though I still read the NIV chronological and Young's LT for pleasure reading, whenever I come across verses that "stick out" at me, I go into a dozen different translations, lexicons and interlinears.[as some here also do]
    I myself welcome you aboard and as far as threads being on this subject, I am sure the Mods can find them.

    Steve

    Edit:
    oops. I posted this before I saw Bob's post.
    On the issue of Christ made sin by impartation, I think that what the moderating staff came to agreement on is that such a DOCTRINE is heresy. Heresy being defined in this instance as a departure from apostolic teaching on the person and work of Jesus Christ. But the entire content of individual opinions expressed about DF himself are not necessarily representative of every moderator here.
    "There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"

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    Re: A mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by mlqurgw
    Honestly, I am in a strait betwixt the two. While it is extremely difficult to find a place on the internet that stands for truth without reservation and in which I can speak my conscience without being attacked as a heretic immediately by God haters, I find that the one place I hoped to feel at home has labelled a man I love and respect, because I have a deep personal relationship with him, a heretic. I am truly greived in my heart and don't really know what to do. I ask your prayers in this matter.
    Well Ron, that would bother just about anyone I know. AS far as being part of a "group" Just come here, be yourself, and pray the Spirit leads you what to say. Do nto partake of any mob mentality, and just appraoch this forum as a place to express your understandings.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: A mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby
    'Heretic' is a word thrown around loosely and we should define it properly; is it:

    1. A person teaching any wrong doctrine.
    2. A person teaching enough wrong doctrine to prove himself unsaved.
    3. A schismatic person.
    etc.

    On the issue of Christ made sin by impartation, I think that what the moderating staff came to agreement on is that such a DOCTRINE is heresy. Heresy being defined in this instance as a departure from apostolic teaching on the person and work of Jesus Christ. But the entire content of individual opinions expressed about DF himself are not necessarily representative of every moderator here.

    We never received an answer from any proponent of the 'made sin' view (including DF) on how the reality of Christ made sin is logically defined. The proponents of the view stated that we were unsaved unless we believed the doctrine as essential to the gospel--yet they could not state the doctrine logically and propositionally. The response to my demanding a propositional defense was that the truth is spiritual and goes beyond any propositions that man can state on how Christ was made sin by impartation. That response will never be acceptable to us and should not be acceptable to anyone. So we can't recommend persons as sound teachers who are not committed to a logical defense of the gospel.
    I am at the moment working on a reasoned response. While I make no claim of being logical, as I have never studied logic, I intend to do my utmost to show how I view the subject. As I have stated before, I do not intend nor can I answer for Don or anyone else. I actually haven't discussed the subject in depth with him as our preaching schedules, and other things, haven't allowed us the time. I may or may not do so in the future. At this point I am not sure. Knowing Don, I do understand his reluctance to answer every cavail against him. If he did he would spend all his time doing that instead of doing what he is called to do. I can honestly say that I have never met a more wise and studious man in my life. He has his faults, as we all do, but I have never come to him with a question that he wasn't willing to answer, even if not right away, and have even been told by him ," I don't know." His concern for the glory of God is not to be questioned nor his love for the brethren. As far as anyone calling you unsaved I cannot answer. I hardly think that it was Don that has done so. If he has then I would ask that you PM me with a quote. Or if you feel it is best for those who read this then do it publically. I simply cannot answer to something I am not privy to.

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    Re: A mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by InChristAlways
    Hi ml. And we desire your prayers. It is not about "our" views but about the view from having the Mind of Christ, and so I am Christ["anointed"]/stauros centered.
    I also believe, in my humble view, that whenever scripture is quoted, it should be as "accurate" as possible, as even though I still read the NIV chronological and Young's LT for pleasure reading, whenever I come across verses that "stick out" at me, I go into a dozen different translations, lexicons and interlinears.[as some here also do]
    I myself welcome you aboard and as far as threads being on this subject, I am sure the Mods can find them.

    Steve

    Edit:
    oops. I posted this before I saw Bob's post.
    Thank you for your welcome, but I am as yet undecided whether I will stay or not. I have no doubt that I can learn much here and even maybe be of some help to some. But I must seek the mind of Christ in the matter and wait uopon Him to give me light. I am your servent in Christ, Ron.

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    Re: A mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    Well Ron, that would bother just about anyone I know. AS far as being part of a "group" Just come here, be yourself, and pray the Spirit leads you what to say. Do nto partake of any mob mentality, and just appraoch this forum as a place to express your understandings.
    Thank you for your advice. I quess we will see how it goes after I post what I have promised.

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    Re: A mistake

    I ask the patience of all who read this thread. I must go to work now and cannot post what I have said I would do at the moment. I am still working on it and it may take me a while.

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    Re: A mistake

    mlqurgw:

    No one who loves brazilians leaves this Forum... You know whereof I speak and it will be our "secret" until you decide to disclose it!

    I want to ask you to remain here and continue to post because of a few things of a selfish nature on my part:
    1. Another person who has been in a minister's shoe (your experience and knowledge are just that important in my opinion)
    2. A reformed Baptist - we already have a "reformed Presby". We need the view of a Baptist here in the issues of "common grace" "universal atonement" "fullerism" "lordship gospel" "new perspective" and a few other issues that "plague" reformed circles currently.
    Well, I understand these above to be self-serving, but I think I can afford being a bit self-serving at this point.

    I once wanted to leave and someone very wise, a fellow moderator told me that I should consider all those who would be "deprived" of my contributions and not helped if I would leave. I decided then that I should not leave as I thought on that aspect. I believe in God's Sovereignty in all and every single small minutia of our lives and our decisions and I wanted to think that God's Sovereign Will was for me to stay. I have not repented and instead, have gained a lot. I am sure the same will be true to you!

    Milt
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

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    Re: A mistake

    I make no claims of being a theologian nor to being logical in what I say. I offer this only as a brief explanation of my view. If you desire more detail then I will give answers to the best of my ability and meager knowledge. I only ask that you do not all come at me at once.

    Was Christ made to be sin?




    While I fully understand how it seems abhorrent to even think for a moment that the one who alone is God manifest in the flesh could possibly be a sinner in any sense, I believe it ought not be dismissed as heresy out of hand. How often we base our reactions on what we have been taught all our lives instead of giving it serious thought and study. I do not believe we should blindly follow men no matter how much we respect and revere them. At the same time it is not honest to take one sermon or statement and judge everything else they say by it. Error is one thing heresy is another. A man may be unwise in his choice of words and expressions but that doesnít make him a heretic. Instead of just dismissing someone as a heretic we should seek, with all diligence, to understand his meaning. If we can reconcile it at all with the Scriptures then we should at the very least give them the benefit of the doubt. Otherwise we are simply saying that everyone else is wrong and I alone am right. That is nothing but pride. Those who are called to proclaim the truth of God do not answer to men but to their Master alone. With these things in mind I will proceed to give you my understanding of the question.

    Was Christ made sin? It would seem that most agree that sin was imputed to Christ. So then we must consider what imputation is. In as simple terms as I can give, it is the making of that which isnít mine by personal act to be mine. Certainly it involves more than just charging it to my account. It means that I become responsible for it as though I had done it. I am either justified or declared guilty by it. It is mine by possession. What I mean by that is that I own it. To put it in the perspective of our question, I do not just count it only in the subjective but it actually is mine by right of ownership. The righteousness of Christ, which is imputed to me, is my righteousness. I own it I possess it. I am justified by it. Can we not say the same of the imputation of the sins of the elect to Christ? They became His; He owned them and was responsible for them. They became His possession. In that sense can we not say that sin was His?

    Moreover, do the types found in the Old Testament sacrifices show us anything concerning this question? I believe they do. First, though, we should consider if a type must perfectly picture the antitype. The answer, of course, is no. David was a type of Christ but David committed sin, unlike Christ. Certainly other examples can be given to show this point. So then types picture in some measure the antitype but not perfectly. We must remember this when looking at the sacrifices of the Old Testament. What then do we learn from them concerning our question? Letís just take one sacrifice, that one on the great Day of Atonement, and see what we can find. The High Priest lays his hands upon the head of the animal to be sacrificed picturing imputation of sin. The animalís blood is shed and it dies. Did the animal become a sinner? Of course not, because the blood of bulls and goats can never take away sin. The whole scene is a picture to teach us how Christ bears our sin and dies under the penalty of it. As our Great High Priest, He took our sin upon Himself and bore it to the cross. By an act of imputation He took responsibility and ownership of the sin of the elect of God. They became His sins. He suffered and died under the curse and penalty of them.

    Is there a difference between calling Christ a sinner and saying that my sin became His? While some may call it semantics, I do believe the difference is important. By calling Christ a sinner you give the connotation of Christ committing sin, which would be blasphemy. Saying that Christ was made sin and that they became His own does in no way harm His perfect character. He is still the Son of God who has never committed a single sin. His perfect nature and character is what makes Him fit to bear the sins of many. Had He sin of His own commission He would first have to atone for them before He could even be called fit to be the sinners substitute. He is the spotless Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.
    So, would I say that Christ became a sinner? No I wouldnít but I do understand how someone might say it unwisely without giving it due thought. That does not mean they are a blasphemer in that they may not mean that Christ committed sin but were perhaps unwise in their choice of words.

    Do the Scriptures support such a position?

    Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
    Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

    1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
    1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
    1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
    1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

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    Re: A mistake

    What then do we learn from them concerning our question? Let’s just take one sacrifice, that one on the great Day of Atonement, and see what we can find. The High Priest lays his hands upon the head of the animal to be sacrificed picturing imputation of sin. The animal’s blood is shed and it dies. Did the animal become a sinner? Of course not, because the blood of bulls and goats can never take away sin. The whole scene is a picture to teach us how Christ bears our sin and dies under the penalty of it.

    1Pe 2:22
    Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
    1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
    1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
    Hi ml. That is not a bad analogy of the Atonement sacrifice. Can an "animal" sin? I don't think so, and is why Christ had to be the "passover" Lamb [a symbolic animal] of God who takes away the sin of the world.

    What is ironic is the fact that he was still symbolically "sacrificed" by the "High Priests" to atone/cover over their sins according to Levitical law, though they used the hands of the romans to complete it.
    Steve

    Matt 27:12 And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He answered nothing....... 25 And all the people answered and said, "His blood [be] on us and on our children."

    John 19: 11 Jesus answered, "You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."....... 15 But they cried out, "Away with [Him,] away with [Him!] Crucify Him!" Pilate said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar!"

    There appears to be yet one more sacrifice left in Zeph 1.
    Zeph 1:7 Be silent in the presence of the Lord GOD; For the day of the LORD [is] at hand, For the LORD has prepared a sacrifice; He has invited His guests. 8 "And it shall be, In the day of the LORD's sacrifice, That I will punish the princes and the king's children, And all such as are clothed with foreign apparel.


    "There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"

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    Re: A mistake

    Zeph 1:7 Be silent in the presence of the Lord GOD; For the day of the LORD [is] at hand, For the LORD has prepared a sacrifice; He has invited His guests. 8 "And it shall be, In the day of the LORD's sacrifice, That I will punish the princes and the king's children, And all such as are clothed with foreign apparel.

    This is seems to be prophetic of the consummation of history, with perhaps a duality alluding to one the parables given by Christ.

    Consider the following:

    [Mat 22:1-22:14] "... And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables, and said, The kingdom of Heaven is like a certain king who made a marriage for his son. And he sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they would not come. Again he sent out other servants, saying, Tell those who are invited, Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatlings are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the marriage. But not caring, they went their ways, one to his field, another to his trading. And the rest took his servants and treated them spitefully, and killed them.


    But when the king heard, he was angry. And he sent out his armies and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then he said to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they who were invited were not worthy. Therefore go into the exits of the highways, and as many as you shall find, invite them to the marriage. So the servants went out into the highways and gathered together as many as they found, both bad and good. And the wedding was filled with reclining guests. And the king coming in to look over the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. And he said to him, Friend, how did you come in here without having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

    Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few chosen."


    He's not "preparing" His sacrifice, as it has already been "prepared".

    During the time of this writing (by the Prophet Zephaniah) the sacrifice most likely would have been seen in a present/future tense, but we see the sacrifice retroactively, in a historical manner, while looking forward into the furture to come.

    I could be way off but it seems valid.

    Anyone else want to take crack at it?

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    Re: A mistake

    As far as anyone calling you unsaved I cannot answer. I hardly think that it was Don that has done so.

    DF has never posted on this forum; I was referring to a private post by someone else holding to the position that sin was imparted to Christ.

    Let it be clear that no-one here denies 2 Cor. 5:21--the notion that we consider heresy is that Christ was made sin by impartation or infusion of wickedness into his person.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: A mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby
    As far as anyone calling you unsaved I cannot answer. I hardly think that it was Don that has done so.

    DF has never posted on this forum; I was referring to a private post by someone else holding to the position that sin was imparted to Christ.

    Let it be clear that no-one here denies 2 Cor. 5:21--the notion that we consider heresy is that Christ was made sin by impartation or infusion of wickedness into his person.
    How does that constitute heresy? As I see it the teaching doesn't make Christ a sinner by act. How is it possible for a Holy and just God to exact justice on someone who only bears sin symbolically? The Scripures do seem to teach us that He bore our sins. He took the burden of sin and made it His own. What does it mean that He bore our sins in His own body?

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