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Thread: John Owen and Double Payment

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    Re: John Owen and Double Payment

    The Bible is clear that God must be consistant in His actions. IT is not as if He loves the elects sin, or evil actions, He is Holy and "hates" evil. God will always react the exact same way in regards to moral actions of the individual. He approves good and abhors evil. THis is why I believe God seperates the elect person, from their actions. The actions do not define the person.

    ROMANS 5:6-8 NKJ
    6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
    7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
    8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

    MATTHEW 11:19 NKJ
    19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, `Look, a gluttonous man and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'.

    This statement by the religious leaders was meant as a slam against our Lord.

    1 TIMOTHY 1:15 NKJ
    15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners . . . .

    EPHESIANS 2:4-10 NKJ
    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
    5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),


    Penfield and others might think some here or other places that speak about the Immutability of God, that we espouse His "joy" in the elects sins. If that is the case, well then we must be much clearer. Because this could not be farther from the truth.



    The Bible takes seriously the character of God who as holy can never approve of evil and who must always recoil (repent) against it even though he decreed its existence; who as just must always approve of obedience, pronounce it good, and rejoice over it even though, where it actually exists in the creature, he is the ultimate author of it; and who, simply because he is good, must always respond to the sinner's evil with grief and to the sinner's repentance with delight. "Paul Mizzi"
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: John Owen and Double Payment

    Jer 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

    Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.



    I believe Penfold fails to recognize that God doesn't change and that His love as unchangable as He is. I find it interesting that He calls us sons of Jacob in this passage instead of Israel. Jacob was a vile man and so are we by nature. God does not say that we will not have consequences in this life because of our sin. Look at how many times He brought the Israelites into trouble because of their sin. If I commit a crime I will have to pay the penalty in this life of jail. I do not deny that we are still sinners and still sin. I read his article and IIRC it was saying we are actually saved by obedience rather than the death of Christ.

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    Re: John Owen and Double Payment

    "the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom 8:7-8). Since this verse applies with equal force to all unbelievers prior to conversion ('elect' and 'non-elect'), I rest there and accept what God says.


    Notice it is us that hate God prior to conversion not the other way around.

    As far as Eph 2:3 goes:

    among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

    The same applies here; the context is that we hate God. Our minds were set against Him in the same way the reprobate is. But because of His Love with which He has loved us from the beginning He gives us faith and repentance.

    There it is Penfold, your whole weak, feeble attempt to reduce God to a mutable human being destroyed by simple exegesis and I didn't even break a sweat.





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    Re: John Owen and Double Payment

    Of course those "in the flesh" cannot please God in their own persons and works, whether reprobate or elect. What is the disagreement here? The doctrine of Total Depravity rules! Justification from eternity is a separate issue--for it has no reference to man's experience for an unregenerate 'moment' in eternity but to God's eternal salvific disposition transcendent of ANY temporal experience.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: John Owen and Double Payment

    Quote Originally Posted by Penfold
    Interesting stuff. Darth Gill says that God's wrath has never abided (sic) on the elect. Yet John 3:36 states that the wrath of God abides on the unbeliever. All the elect were once unbelievers - so there goes Darth's logic

    Mlqurgw doesn't answer the question. Perhaps I should rephrase it to make it clear. If payment for your sins was made at the cross and 'Payment God will not twice demand' (Toplady), in your pre-conversion days were your sins held against you? If so why?
    The Lord makes it clear that He Himself does NOT see any iniquity in those whom He has purposed to save from before the foundations of the world because the Lord has loved them and purposed also to bring salvation through Jesus Christ the ROCK of salvation for the elect.

    Consider Numbers chapters 23 and 24 and the parable of Balaam.
    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

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    Re: John Owen and Double Payment

    The notion that God has an attribute or disposition of hell-wrath toward his elect in pre-conversion days--then changes his mind to a disposition of love and grace in the post-conversion days of his elect: this amounts to a denial of God's immutability. It is certainly true that EXPERIENTIALLY the elect are children of wrath or seething rage against God in their pre-conversion days. However, the disposition of God (as opposed to man) is irrespective of time. God justifies the elect in his grace PURPOSEFULLY from eternity up to the moment of their conversion, CONSTITUTIONALLY in the atonement of Jesus Christ, and DECLARATIVELY from the moment that he gives them faith to eternity beyond that point. There is never a point that God does not impute the righteousness of Jesus Christ to his elect people.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: John Owen and Double Payment

    So Robert,

    What does Ephesians 2:3 "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

    What does it mean we "were by nature the children of wrath even as others."?

    Bill
    Jude 24 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
    25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

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    Re: John Owen and Double Payment

    "Children of wrath, even as the others." What does this mean?

    As I stated in my last post, "It is certainly true that EXPERIENTIALLY the elect are children of wrath or seething rage against God in their pre-conversion days." Wrath in Eph. 2:3 means extreme anger or seething wrage. Paul in no way refers to GOD'S wrath in his exposition here; God is not mentioned as the source or administor of wrath in this particular case. The point is that man in his unregenerate state is the child of the sinful nature--which issues in seething hatred and anger.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: John Owen and Double Payment

    Well,

    That is if the clause ..."and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."...is to be meant as God not being the one who has the wrath...but it sure looks like that it is God's wrath that is in view here in this verse. Who else's wrath would it be? Surely not the elect's wrath. But I do see that we (the elect) could be [not the objects exclusively] of His wrath, but were "by nature"...seeming to indicate that maybe God was not going to [because He changes not] ever execute His fierce wrath having elected us prior to our sinful unregenerate state.

    These are the 2 sides. I still struggle with this as it seems that God was never [from His decree standpoint] going to judge us under his eternal hatred...but no one can deny that we [the elect] DESERVED God's righteous anger and wrath!

    I still think that this is a tough one!

    But thank you for your answer, Robert.

    I fear the Lord still, even if I am not under His wrath.

    Bill
    Jude 24 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
    25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

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    Re: John Owen and Double Payment

    Bill, read Ephesians 2:4, and it solves the perceived problem.
    This is my signature.

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    Re: John Owen and Double Payment

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    Bill, read Ephesians 2:4, and it solves the perceived problem.
    Actually read Ephesians 2 4 and 5. Note the synchronization between God's love for the elect and the elect status as sinners.

    Also read Romans 5:8. The same synchronization occurs.

    God's love for us is concomitant to our status as sinners.

    Note the terms EVEN AS, and WHILE WE WERE YET...

    I believe these terms help understanding!

    Milt
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

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    One of these days I will be able to click on the right button Brandan... Serious problems with my own eye-hand synchronization!

    Sorry!

    Milt

    Another point if I may:

    There is no conflict between Paul's theology of God loving us WHILE and EVEN AS we were sinners and dead in trespasses and sins and him using the Hebraism "children of wrath" because Paul calls us "adopted" in Ephesians 1. We may have been once by nature "children of wrath" but He predestined us to "adoption as sons" (Ephesians 1:5, NSAB).

    Note that God "predestined" children of wrath to be His children! This is glorious and a reason for visible, corporal and spiritual rejoicing!

    In verse 4 He chose us from the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless; so verse 4 is the "who and what for" part.

    In verse 5 we have the "to" part.

    Or, verse 4:
    Who: The elect
    What for: To be holy and blameless

    Verse 5

    To: the adoption of sons!

    That moves me in joy!

    Milt
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

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    Re: John Owen and Double Payment

    Can "children of wrath be translated as "sons/daughters of violent passion?"

    Just curious...

    Scott.

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    Re: John Owen and Double Payment

    Thanks Milt and Brandan! Also, the translation "by nature objects of wrath" that is in some Bible versions is completely absent from the text. It betrays a theological bias, ascribing the wrath described in THIS PARTICULAR VERSE to God--which has no basis. Verses 4 and 5 are GOD's ANSWER OF GRACE to the unfortunate state of the elect in their unregenerate state, until we get to verse 4 God's disposition is not in view--only the subjective experience of the elect prior to regeneration.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: John Owen and Double Payment

    Scott: Can "children of wrath be translated as "sons/daughters of violent passion?"

    That is exactly the force of the text--the 'seed' or offspring of extreme hatred and seething rage.

    Bill, you are right about what the elect DESERVE before (and for that matter, AFTER) regeneration--the eternal judgment of God upon their rebellion and sin. All of scripture testifies to that!
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: John Owen and Double Payment

    That is a humbling doctrine then. If I did not get anything else, I got that I am to be humble about my standing and state if I am in very deed...elect!

    Thanks Robert Higby!

    Bill
    Jude 24 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
    25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

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    Re: John Owen and Double Payment

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby
    Bill, you are right about what the elect DESERVE before (and for that matter, AFTER) regeneration--the eternal judgment of God upon their rebellion and sin. All of scripture testifies to that!
    Hi Bob,

    I would disagree with this statement (and the one from Bill). It is likely just an issue of semantics, but the elect deserve eternal life, not judgment. Certainly not of their own righteousness, but that of Christ's imputed. I understand the point you and Bill are making (that minus Christ's work we would deserve judgment), but I think there may be a better way of stating it so that there are no misgivings about what we truly deserve.

    Thanks,,
    -Kyle

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    Re: John Owen and Double Payment

    Kyle, Bob, and Bill,

    One way to say it is that when we are viewed in Christ we deserve eternal life because of Christ's satisfaction and the fruits of it, viewed outside of Christ we deserve eternal death.

    ~Anthony
    Anthony Lawson, sinner saved by imputed righteousness

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    Re: John Owen and Double Payment

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias Crisp
    Kyle, Bob, and Bill,

    One way to say it is that when we are viewed in Christ we deserve eternal life because of Christ's satisfaction and the fruits of it, viewed outside of Christ we deserve eternal death.

    ~Anthony
    The contention is are the elect EVER viewed outside of Christ? And if so, what does this entail? WOuld this delve into the mediatorship of Christ for His sheep witht he Father?


    Simon, Simon, behold satan asked to have you that he might sift you as wheat. But I made supplication for thee that thy faith fail not.


    And the gospel by John, chapter 17, verse 9:
    I pray for them, for those who thou hast given me, for they are thine


    Hebrews, chapter 7, verse 25:
    Wherefore also he is able to save to the uttermost them that draw near unto God through him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.


    THe above scriptures are very clear. Christ lives to constantly intercede for His sheep. WHy would He need to do that if we were never viewed outside of Christ?

    I searched the site and have not found any threads on the subject of His intercession for His sheep.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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