Pristine Grace
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst ... 2 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 54

Thread: Reprobates?

  1. #21
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    50
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Reprobates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby
    So what are you saying the Jews were justified by works?

    It was not a covenant of grace or eternal life! But Ezekiel 33 is all about the continuance of the Sinai covenant stipulations. In such a covenant, one can be 'in' God's covenant love for a time (being a member of the community of Jews) and then have such love withdrawn, as happened with Saul. None of this has anything to do with God's ETERNAL purposes of grace and wrath, it is strictly a temporal covenant of continued life on this earth or a forfeit of such life by disobedience to the terms of same covenant.
    Mr. Higby, I do assure ye that I know where ye be coming from. Like I know that the earth be flat. But if ye be looking for a map here be a good un.

    Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it...: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of Life.

    Exd 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

    Deu 9:13-14 Furthermore the Lord spake unto me, saying I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.

    I guess ye be willern to stipulate that the book in Rev 20:15 and Exd 32:33 be the one and same book. And ye seein that the Lord be speakin to the Moses that the Israelites had sinned against Him by builderin the goldin calf. I dont be a readin that God tells the Moses in these passages that the Israelites be aheadin to thee grave, Do ye? Oh, He does say He be goin to DESTROYIN 'em, that must a be'in the grave. BUT, ALSO, I be a readin that The Lord be a wantin to BLOT out the sinnerin Israelites names' from His book of life and that He be willin to raise up a mightier and greaterin nation than the Israelites for the Moses. Sin=Blot out of book=cast into the lake of fire. That what I be a fiqurin. You?

  2. #22
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    50
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Reprobates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    Romans 9:24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. 25 As He says also in Hosea, "I will call those who were not My people, 'My people,' And her who was not beloved, 'beloved.'" 26 "And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, 'you are not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God."
    Well I do have another question. In the above passage it is stated, "not ...Jews only, ...also..from among gentiles...I will call those who are not my people, 'My people', And her who WAS NOT BELOVED, 'beloved'."

    Who is 'not my people'? Why are they now called 'my people'? Who is ' not beloved'? Why are they now called 'beloved'?

    It certainly couldnt be refering to the ELECT. Here it call these people, 'not my people'. It cant be the elect, because the 'beloved' here, were called, 'was not beloved'. If this Is about the elect, from the foundation of the earth, how could they be refered to by God as, 'not my people' and 'who was NOT beloved'?

  3. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Warrington, UK
    Posts
    488
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Reprobates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    So Christ's death was in vain. Ugh. Now I think I've heard it all from those who profess universal atonement. This is of course the natural conclusion of the doctrine. Martin, do you believe this is true also? That Christ's death was in vain?
    Absolutely not! The precious death of the Lord Jesus Christ achieved absolutely everything God intended it to achieve!

    We will, of course, disagree over what those intentions are however ...

  4. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Holland, Michigan
    Posts
    1,835
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Reprobates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spanky
    John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of Truth, WHOM THE WORLD cannot receive.."

    Mr Ambassodor, I do thinks ye exegesis is a little out of kilter. If "world" means "others" beside the Jewish world. Then according to ye exegesis John 14:17 the "world", meaning "others" beside the Jewish world, cannot receive the Spirit of Truth. Well I'm just guessing ye not be Jewish, are ye one of the "others"? According to ye exegesis, ye wouldnt be havin the Spirit.
    You really demonstrate that you have no idea as to what "exegesis" is! Your text actually proves my point! If God loves the world, how can the world He loves be uncapable of receiving the Spirit of truth (His Spirit?) In exegesis we have to exegete each word according to context... but I will not answer to your question since is so childish and it proves my OWN point in a way that you made your reasoning to be underserving of a serious consideration for an answer...

    My exegesis is a little kilter? Read your own post! Don't embarass me approaching me in such a childish manner.

    Your exegesis is as terrible as your writing!

    Milt
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

  5. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Holland, Michigan
    Posts
    1,835
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Reprobates?

    Spanky:

    I was reading the responses you gave the other people who write here and I have to ask: Don't you read what you write? Aren't you ashamed? Do you have an education?

    Milt
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

  6. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Holland, Michigan
    Posts
    1,835
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Reprobates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeuos Eleos
    Absolutely not! The precious death of the Lord Jesus Christ achieved absolutely everything God intended it to achieve!

    We will, of course, disagree over what those intentions are however ...
    I would REALLY like to see from the Bible in whatever shape or form any hint that God intended to do something that He did not accomplish or that something was "accomplished" that God did not intend. If such an evidence, above and beyond shadow of doubt exists, then the security of the believer, the capability of God fulfilling His promises, the promises of God concerning being the "only God and that like Him there is none other... and that He will do whatever He pleases" are untrue and "christianity" is nothing but a sect that provides no real hope to anyone...

    I believe that fairminded people can and will disagree. I also believe that brilliant minds can disagree about a point or other; but disagreements between points related to whether God intended to do something but did not accomplish what He intended, or that something was accomplished that God did not intend that it would be accomplished and/or that God was frustrated in His intention, either by self inflicting such frustration or because He was caught unaware, are not disagreements to be dismissed as such: they are indeed diametrically opposed views of God which, as much as one can sugar coat it and brush it aside, will lead either to believing a God who can guarantee that His word and desire will be fulfilled and another "god" who can be eternally frustrated, thus, unworthy of men's trust, since "he" would be nothing but only "little better" than men being.

    This teaching, rather than saying that men is a "little lower than the angels" as Ps. 8 declares, teaches that God is only a "little better than men". I really would like to see such evidence and than lament and dread the fact that I believed in a little frustrated "god" since my early childhood!

    I don't think that there is such an evidence, however; I have already attempted to find one!

    This difference is the difference between a "good God" and a "bad god"; it is the difference between being a follower of God and a follower of a being that is just a little better than me...

    Expecting to be igonored but not mindful of it...

    Milt
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

  7. #27
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    50
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Reprobates?

    Milt, got to keep some humor in these here posts. Why do you refer the WORLD as 'others'-non Jews. The greek word used in the text in both instances is KOSMOS. And you still havent answered why Christ PRAYED to God that 'the world MAY BELIEVE that you sent Me'. The word WORLD here is KOSMOS. God wishes no ONE to perish, But all to come to repentance. The greek word is PAS, for ALL, in the greek, meaning EVERYONE. You try to conform your theology to your whims and not to scriptural fact. And please give me some answers to post #22.

  8. #28
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    50
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Reprobates?

    Quote Originally Posted by GraceAmbassador

    I don't think that there is such an evidence, however; I have already attempted to find one.

    Milt
    Milt, your proof is found in romans 9:25-26. In your theology, God always considered the Elect as 'my people', but here in these passages God calls them 'not my people'. In your theology, God calls the ELECT, 'beloved', but here he calls them, 'WHO WAS NOT BELOVED'. How could the God you describe, call the ELECT in your theology, "WHO WAS NOT BELOVED" then call them 'BELOVED'. In your theology God always loved the elect. But here is proof that contradicts that theology. How could God in your theology call the elect 'NOT MY PEOPLE' if they were 'his people' always?

  9. #29
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,833
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    148
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    94
    Thanked in
    62 Posts

    Re: Reprobates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spanky
    Milt, your proof is found in romans 9:25-26. In your theology, God always considered the Elect as 'my people', but here in these passages God calls them 'not my people'. In your theology, God calls the ELECT, 'beloved', but here he calls them, 'WHO WAS NOT BELOVED'. How could the God you describe, call the ELECT in your theology, "WHO WAS NOT BELOVED" then call them 'BELOVED'. In your theology God always loved the elect. But here is proof that contradicts that theology. How could God in your theology call the elect 'NOT MY PEOPLE' if they were 'his people' always?
    Read this link: http://bible.5solas.org/bible.php?vi...&createchaps=1
    This is my signature.

  10. #30
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    50
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Reprobates?

    Darth, In your theology, EITHER God TOTALLY dearly beloved His people, or He didnt TOTALLY dearly belove His people. Which is it? He either TOTALLY, 'beloved ' these people ALWAYS, or these people were TOTALLY 'not dearly beloved' ALWAYS. This verse PROVES your theology a fallacy. TOTALLY 'Not my people' or TOTALLY 'my people'. EITHER they were ALWAYS, TOTALLY 'beloved' or TOTALLY "who was not beloved'. The people in Romans 9:24-25 were ALWAYS TOTALLY ' beloved' or ALWAYS TOTALLY 'was NOT beloved'. According to your theology, God is UNCHANGEABLE, ALWAYS ACCURATE in His description of His people., Either They are TOTALLY 'Elect' or TOTALLY 'Reprobate'. Either they are His 'my people' TOTALLY or TOTALLY 'not His people'. EITHER His people have ALWAYS been TOTALLY 'beloved' or TOTALLY 'WAS NOT BELOVED'. Which is it for these people in Romans 9:24-25?

  11. #31
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,833
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    148
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    94
    Thanked in
    62 Posts

    Re: Reprobates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spanky
    Darth, In your theology, EITHER God TOTALLY dearly beloved His people, or He didnt TOTALLY dearly belove His people. Which is it?
    They are ALWAYS His people from God's perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spanky
    He either TOTALLY, 'beloved ' these people ALWAYS, or these people were TOTALLY 'not dearly beloved' ALWAYS.
    Like I said before, they have always been His BELOVED people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spanky
    This verse PROVES your theology a fallacy.
    No they don't. These verses say that God will CALL these people His people who were not His people (and that is BY EXPERIENCE ONLY). Nothing has changed from God's perspective. What has changed is the experience of those who are now called "His people."
    This is my signature.

  12. #32
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    50
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Reprobates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill

    These verses say that God will CALL these people His people who were not His people (and that is BY EXPERIENCE ONLY).
    EXPERIANCE ONLY!!! In your theology, shouldnt God have EXPERIENCED these people as 'my people' already. Either God EXPERIENCED these people as 'MY people' OR God EXPERIENCED these people as 'not my people' Either God EXPERIENCED these people as 'beloved' or EXPERIENECED these people as 'who was not beloved'. In your theology God has EXPERIENCED everthing ALREADY, Has He not?

  13. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Bromley, KY
    Posts
    248
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Reprobates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spanky
    Who is 'not my people'? Why are they now called 'my people'? Who is ' not beloved'? Why are they now called 'beloved'?

    It certainly couldnt be refering to the ELECT. Here it call these people, 'not my people'. It cant be the elect, because the 'beloved' here, were called, 'was not beloved'. If this Is about the elect, from the foundation of the earth, how could they be refered to by God as, 'not my people' and 'who was NOT beloved'?
    Come now Spanky let's use our head a little. It is obvious that Paul is speaking in terms of redemptive history. The gentiles were not a part of the covenant, but now, God is bringing in His elect from among the gentiles, these are those who are not his people, but are now my people. Also see Eph. 2:11-15 and 1 Pet. 2:9-10.

    ~Anthony
    Anthony Lawson, sinner saved by imputed righteousness

  14. #34
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    50
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Reprobates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias Crisp
    The gentiles were not a part of the covenant, but now, God is bringing in His elect from among the gentiles, these are those who are not his people, but are now my people.
    Obvious to YOU or GOD? According to your theology, how could 'the elect from among the gentiles' be at one moment, 'those who are not his people', and the next moment 'ARE now my people'? According to your theology, their can be NO CHANGE IN "these peoples'" status in God's mind. 'These people' are either ALWAYS 'beloved' or ALWAYS 'who was NOT beloved'. Either these people are ALWAYS 'my people' or ALWAYS 'who are NOT my people'. which is it for these people in Romans 9:24-25?

  15. #35
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Warrington, UK
    Posts
    488
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Reprobates?

    Quote Originally Posted by GraceAmbassador
    I would REALLY like to see from the Bible in whatever shape or form any hint that God intended to do something that He did not accomplish or that something was "accomplished" that God did not intend.
    Huh? Where do you get that from the quote of mine you gave? Substitute 'accomplished' for 'achieved' and you can see I said no such thing.

    Nevertheless, we both know that there is a difference between us and that it lies in your refusal to recognise the standard historic reformed doctrine of the two-fold will of God.

    As for the rest of your post. It accomplishes nothing (whatever you intended it to accomplish ) since attacking something doesn't actually constitute an argument against it.


    Soli Deo Gloria,
    Martin

  16. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    wingham,ontario
    Posts
    1,046
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Reprobates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeuos Eleos
    Huh? Where do you get that from the quote of mine you gave? Substitute 'accomplished' for 'achieved' and you can see I said no such thing.

    Nevertheless, we both know that there is a difference between us and that it lies in your refusal to recognise the standard historic reformed doctrine of the two-fold will of God.

    As for the rest of your post. It accomplishes nothing (whatever you intended it to accomplish ) since attacking something doesn't actually constitute an argument against it.


    Soli Deo Gloria,
    Martin
    Ah yes, here we go again. Two wills of God, 2 loves of God, 2 graces of God.... babble babble...

    This is standard historic "deformed" doctrine. An attack against reformed confessional truth you sidestep (canons of Dort- rejection of errors.. to mention but 1)

    I had a read through the book of Jonah this morning. Stricking is the lesson Jonah had to learn (as I) from the Lord regarding His sovereign purposes in all things.

    Have a read through, it is quite humbling and at the same time obliterates any thinking to blurr the Lord's sovereign purpose in election and reprobation and advocate the vain philosophies of men.
    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

  17. #37
    Moderator Eileen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    756
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Reprobates?

    Spanky

    Perhaps you might want to look into the covenant made with Abraham and find out who the promises of God are made to.......then read....

    Galatians chapter 3 (all of it)

    It is specific as to who are a part of the Covenant of promise, the spiritual seed of Abraham, and they have always been the beloved of God.

    "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:29) NIV

    Eileen~
    "To those who have no works-phobia, I will state that you are not trembling before the gospel" Robert R. Higby

  18. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Holland, Michigan
    Posts
    1,835
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Reprobates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spanky
    Milt, got to keep some humor in these here posts. Why do you refer the WORLD as 'others'-non Jews. The greek word used in the text in both instances is KOSMOS. And you still havent answered why Christ PRAYED to God that 'the world MAY BELIEVE that you sent Me'. The word WORLD here is KOSMOS. God wishes no ONE to perish, But all to come to repentance. The greek word is PAS, for ALL, in the greek, meaning EVERYONE. You try to conform your theology to your whims and not to scriptural fact. And please give me some answers to post #22.
    Please, read the links that Brandan posted. However, if you think that "all" means "without exception" and not "without distinction" you will have to deal with a lot of text in which the Bible seems to be lying because it says "all" then it is no longer "all"...

    Read this study:

    http://embassyofgrace.net/allmeans.html

    I am very humoristic... but not with Bible error; them I take it very seriously...

    Your text: "the world believe that you sent me" deals with Jesus' glorification. It does not mean at all TO KNOW SALVIFICALLY. Then WE WOULD BE SAVED BY KNOWLEDGE. Do you think we are saved by knowledge EVEN if it is INTIMATE knowledge? The Bible also says that EVERY KNEE shall bow and EVERY tongue shall confess that Jesus is the Lord. Do you consider this to be in a SALVIFIC MANNER, and not in judgment? That's bad theology since the same text says that things "under the earth" shall confess all these things. Things "under the earth" is a Hebraism for hell! (Philippians 2:10) Do you believe that people in hell shall confess that Jesus is the Lord in a Salvific manner?

    You need to read a few books. The shorter is The Sovereignty of God by Arthur Pink.

    Also for your information, the word WORLD is indeed KOSMOS but KOSMOS has a meaning other than "every human that ever existed". But I will let you ignore 600 years of reformation and believe your own doctrine, which probably started late in the 1800's with the heretic Finney (earlier with another "good" heretic called John Wesley).

    Milt
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

  19. #39
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Holland, Michigan
    Posts
    1,835
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Reprobates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeuos Eleos
    Huh? Where do you get that from the quote of mine you gave? Substitute 'accomplished' for 'achieved' and you can see I said no such thing.

    Nevertheless, we both know that there is a difference between us and that it lies in your refusal to recognise the standard historic reformed doctrine of the two-fold will of God.

    As for the rest of your post. It accomplishes nothing (whatever you intended it to accomplish ) since attacking something doesn't actually constitute an argument against it.


    Soli Deo Gloria,
    Martin
    Martin:

    I don't check and do not submit to historic reformed doctrine to verify whether God has a two-fold will.

    My post was an attempt to get an explanation for your ellipsis on God's intentions... you were reticent, so I tried to find out as to what. I did.

    We will, of course, disagree over what those intentions are however ...
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

  20. #40
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Warrington, UK
    Posts
    488
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Reprobates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby
    Ezekiel 33 is in the context of the Old Covenant with Jews; it does not inform us at all of the principles of the gospel. Strict continuance in the covenant community by works is taught here!

    Spanky: So what are you saying the Jews were justified by works?

    The Old Covenant established at Sinai was a covenant of continued life on this earth based on faithful obedience to God's laws. It was not a covenant of grace or eternal life! Paul is clear that it was a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ; not a covenant that was made to last forever. Elect Jews entered the covenants of promise apart from law. But Ezekiel 33 is all about the continuance of the Sinai covenant stipulations. In such a covenant, one can be 'in' God's covenant love for a time (being a member of the community of Jews) and then have such love withdrawn, as happened with Saul. None of this has anything to do with God's ETERNAL purposes of grace and wrath, it is strictly a temporal covenant of continued life on this earth or a forfeit of such life by disobedience to the terms of same covenant.
    I see no basis for arguing that God has only earthly death in view in verse 11 - to say nothing of the implied absurdity of your position that God takes no pleasure in the earthly death of a reprobate but does take pleasure in their eternal death or that He can love a reprobate temporally in the Mosaic covenant but not in the Abrahamic covenant or the covenant of grace.

    So, if the Sinai covenant threatens only temporal death, God's hatred of workers of iniquity (ps. 5:5) must only be temporal and David had no basis for his hope that he would dwell in the house of the Lord forever (Ps. 23)?

    I am struggling to figure out your unusual view of the covenants that must be behind this!

    Martin

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst ... 2 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •