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Thread: The Timing of Justification and Imputation

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    Re: The Timing of Justification and Imputation

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah

    Ok Ray: Here it goes. Where did Elijah go?

    First and foremost, The account of Elijah writing a letter to Jehorom recorded in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15 shows the Elijah was transported "Some where else" in the whirlwind. Scriptures speak of 3 heavens. 1) The Heaven of Gods throne(
    2 Corinthians 12:2, 2) Genesis 22:17 "I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heaven . . . " This is outer space per se, where the stars and planets are, 3) Jeremiah 4:25 " . . . and all the birds of the heavens were fled." This is our atmosphere. This is where Elijah was seen traveling. And obviously somewhere else on the earth. Exactly like the account of Steven in Acts. The SPirit took him to some other place.


    shamahym is the word used in 2 Kings. #8064 in concordance. shameh is the root, which means sky. Not where God's throne is.

    And again look at John 3:13
    " And no man has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of man who is in heaven. "

    And Acts 2;34
    " For David did not ascend into the heavens but he said himself: 'The Lord said to My Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, till I make your enemies Your footstool.' "

    Why would Peter say this inspired word? David is not in Heaven with Christ at the throne of God yet When he died.

    BAck to the letter.

    ELijah was taken away, you say to heaveb to be with Christ. But this leter predicted the death of Jehoram. Now how could this be. If you timeline the events, it was 8-10 years after being whisked away when Jehoram became king. And the wording shows that these events happenned already. He writes the letter for events that had passed.


    12: And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
    13: But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:
    14: Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:
    15: And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day.

    All these events took place except his death. Which happenned 2 years later. Therefore we can conclude Elijah was still living somewhere.


    Look at Hebrews 11. The promise is resurrection to life. IT specifically syas they did not receive it. Until Christ Ascended and led them home.
    11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
    11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
    1 Corinthians 15:20, "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."


    "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18)

    So you see Ray, Gill is wrong here. These did not rise to the throne of God. Until Christ himself raised. They were in Shoel, waiting for the promise to be completed.


    Do you need anything else Ray?
    I think I am missing the connection. What has this to do with justification and imputation from eternity?
    The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." ÖJohn Gill

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    Re: The Timing of Justification and Imputation

    IMPUTATION AT THE CROSS: God tells us in Romans 4:25 " Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification". Literally it can read Who was delivered because our offences, and was raised again because our justification. Sin demands death. Righteousness demands life. The grave could not hold Christ because He established a perfect righteousness for the elect at the cross. Righteousness demands life. Christ was resurrected from the grave BECAUSE OUR JUSTIFICATION: in other words, when Christ was resurrected our justification had already taken place- at the cross. And the only way one can be justified is by righteousness imputed. So, when speaking "in time", Christ's righteousness was imputed to us at the cross: "raised again for our justification".......Kentucky Kid

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    Re: The Timing of Justification and Imputation

    Answers to Joe:
    One thing I find missing is any scriptural backup to justify eternal justification. Not logical conclusions, we can all do that. But solid biblical inspired words that explicitly or implicitly that speak of justification in eternity past, I cannot find. I see throughout the writ explicit teachings that speak completely against this thought.

    Not once is the promise spoken of as completed or in the past.

    How can Christs acive/passive obedience,His righteousness be imputed to His elect prior to any sin in them?

    The decree to impute was a decree to impute at the cross. And as the OT saints looked forward with the eye of faith, we look backwards.

    There is not one recorded word stating that the redeemed look back to before creation, look back to our election in Christ as our rep, for our being declared justified or imputed before God.

    I have never said they do, one flows from the other. But the decree to justify, or impute, does not equal the justification because this is not all of the decree.


    Outrageous! Have you read Rom. 8:29-30? Iím sure that you have--but the truth of the passage is 100% at odds with what you are saying here. God did not only justify his elect from eternity, he GLORIFIED his elect from eternity! Yes, our future glorification in the New Earth (yet to be realized in history) was sure, certain, and settled transcendent of all time and space! The glorification of Christís saints is a future event in linear history yet already accomplished in Godís glorious plan as if it is PAST history! The same with justification. So those who deny eternal justification are AGAINST scripture as sure and certain as Pelagians, Semi-Pelagians, Arminians, Wesleyans, Amyraldians, Augustinians, infralapsarians, and any other Ďismí that would deny Godís full sovereignty

    No one understands what Gods view of Christ in eternity means anyway. Lets face it. It is only mystical and good table talk. We are not eternal beings brandan. We are created. In Time. And this is the revelation of the Word.

    Garbage and paradox theology at its worst! If we accept this gobbledygook, we might believe any stupid nonsense!

    Of course God is eternal. And His ways are not our ways. So why are you trying to view things where we have no reason to be? We were redeemed in time at the cross. this is not a difficult concept.

    Such an argument assumes that God has not revealed ESSENTIAL truth in time to his people! We have a reason to be where God wants us! To claim that redemption at the cross denies eternal and transcendent redemption outside of time is most paradoxical.

    Again, unitl you realize God is both transcendant and immenent, you will never see the truth of both.

    Arrogant and condescending, such a baseless claim assumes the ignorance of those who post hereĖthat they ACTUALLY deny the immanence of God! I guess that you believe that we are 3 year olds in our understanding of Godís immanence!

    Who says they are in Heaven? Even Christ was in the grave 3 days!!!!

    Ridiculous and Arian in the implications! If Christ was not with the Father in heaven during the 3 days that he was in the grave--he is not God! As God the CREATOR and SUSTAINER of all things, during that time he upheld all worlds by the word of his power!

    There was no temporal heaven (Abrahamís Bosom) prior to the cross, that is sheer nonsense. The believers of old did not reside in Abrahams physical chest. The parable of Luke 16 certainly teaches that believers go to heaven and unbelievers go to a preliminary hell after death. That is it! All souls await the final judgment to assign their final destiny!
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: The Timing of Justification and Imputation

    I was reading Hoeksema's Reformed dogmatics -Justification (Pg 93) and I found a statement that confused me. Quote: He freely assumed human flesh and blood. What is more, he entered into the state of sinners. He was not a sinner. The guilt of Adam could not be imputed to him, for he was personally the son of God.

    How would this sin be paid for if not part of imputation. I am not sure if this is a typo and should read imparted to him or I somehow am incorrect in my assumption that the sin of Adam and all our personal sins was covered at the cross. What am I messed up on? I might be thinking THE SIN OF ADAM could not be imputed to him. It seems the same to me.

    John
    The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." ÖJohn Gill

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    Re: The Timing of Justification and Imputation

    Quote Originally Posted by jmgipson
    I was reading Hoeksema's Reformed dogmatics -Justification (Pg 93) and I found a statement that confused me. Quote: He freely assumed human flesh and blood. What is more, he entered into the state of sinners. He was not a sinner. The guilt of Adam could not be imputed to him, for he was personally the son of God.

    How would this sin be paid for if not part of imputation. I am not sure if this is a typo and should read imparted to him or I somehow am incorrect in my assumption that the sin of Adam and all our personal sins was covered at the cross. What am I messed up on? I might be thinking THE SIN OF ADAM could not be imputed to him. It seems the same to me.

    John
    John, Hoeksema is speaking of the imputation of Adam's sin (Adam considered as a federal head), see Rom. 5. The imputation of Adam's sin is the basis for our guilt and sinful nature. He isn't speaking of the elect's sin being imputed to Christ at the cross.

    ~Anthony
    Anthony Lawson, sinner saved by imputed righteousness

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    Re: The Timing of Justification and Imputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias Crisp
    John, Hoeksema is speaking of the imputation of Adam's sin (Adam considered as a federal head), see Rom. 5. The imputation of Adam's sin is the basis for our guilt and sinful nature. He isn't speaking of the elect's sin being imputed to Christ at the cross.

    ~Anthony
    So if the elect's sin was not imputed to Christ based on his obedience. What moment in time is imputation of the elect's sin based upon?
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    Question Re: The Timing of Justification and Imputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias Crisp
    John, Hoeksema is speaking of the imputation of Adam's sin (Adam considered as a federal head), see Rom. 5. The imputation of Adam's sin is the basis for our guilt and sinful nature. He isn't speaking of the elect's sin being imputed to Christ at the cross.

    ~Anthony
    Anthony,
    I think I have lost some brain cells in my age so if I sound dumb forgive me but if Adams sin is imputed to us, and it is not imputed to Christ, how then can we be justified because Adams sin is still accounted to us? Did we not receive the sinful nature as the curse of God? This I agree would not be Christs (sinful nature). So maybe what I am understanding you to say is we were not imputed with adams sin but the penalty for his sin. Is this correct?
    The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." ÖJohn Gill

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    Re: The Timing of Justification and Imputation

    OK. I think I have it now. Original sin does not refer to the first sin but to the result of that first sin. The Scriptures speak repeatedly of sin and death entering the world through ďone manís transgression.Ē As a result of Adamís sin, all men are now sinners. This is what Hoeksema is speaking of then. I have heard we were imputed with Adams sin so much I never thought what really was being said there. If this is wrong someone please send me in the right direction.

    John
    The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." ÖJohn Gill

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    Re: The Timing of Justification and Imputation

    I agree John. Anthony's response is very puzzling to me. Would you please clarify for us Anthony?
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    Re: The Timing of Justification and Imputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby
    Outrageous! Have you read Rom. 8:29-30? I’m sure that you have--but the truth of the passage is 100% at odds with what you are saying here. God did not only justify his elect from eternity, he GLORIFIED his elect from eternity! Yes, our future glorification in the New Earth (yet to be realized in history) was sure, certain, and settled transcendent of all time and space! The glorification of Christ’s saints is a future event in linear history yet already accomplished in God’s glorious plan as if it is PAST history! The same with justification. So those who deny eternal justification are AGAINST scripture as sure and certain as Pelagians, Semi-Pelagians, Arminians, Wesleyans, Amyraldians, Augustinians, infralapsarians, and any other ‘ism’ that would deny God’s full sovereignty
    I have not said otherwise Bob. There is an undertow here that because I speak about justification taking place at the cross, somehow I am speaking as an open theist or something. The fact remains the vast majority of texts speak of God's declaration taking place at the cross. The romans passage does not say anything about eternity. I never realized what the denial of eternal justification brings such a sentence of comdenation.

    Why could not Gods plan be to justify at the cross? I do not understand. The cross was not some replay of a movie. Regardless of being able to conclude this. Scripture speaks of one justification, by the blood of Christ, and this did nto happen before Calvary. Again you tie our salvation to creation, as in the 2 seeds thread. I tie it to the cross

    Quote Originally Posted by bt
    Garbage and paradox theology at its worst! If we accept this gobbledygook, we might believe any stupid nonsense!
    Oh yes, the dreaded paradox.

    Quote Originally Posted by bt
    Such an argument assumes that God has not revealed ESSENTIAL truth in time to his people! We have a reason to be where God wants us! To claim that redemption at the cross denies eternal and transcendent redemption outside of time is most paradoxical.
    I do not see the paradox. And neither has most people of history.


    Quote Originally Posted by bt
    Arrogant and condescending, such a baseless claim assumes the ignorance of those who post here–that they ACTUALLY deny the immanence of God! I guess that you believe that we are 3 year olds in our understanding of God’s immanence!
    Not at all Bob. I did nto mean to be arrogant. Just truthful as I see it. As an aside, why you or others can say basically the same thing, be assertive, but myself speaks as such and I am being arrogant is a double standard dont you think?



    Quote Originally Posted by bt
    Ridiculous and Arian in the implications! If Christ was not with the Father in heaven during the 3 days that he was in the grave--he is not God! As God the CREATOR and SUSTAINER of all things, during that time he upheld all worlds by the word of his power!
    I should have worded it better Bob. I should have used the words ascended into heaven.

    Quote Originally Posted by bt
    There was no temporal heaven (Abraham’s Bosom) prior to the cross, that is sheer nonsense. The believers of old did not reside in Abrahams physical chest. The parable of Luke 16 certainly teaches that believers go to heaven and unbelievers go to a preliminary hell after death. That is it! All souls await the final judgment to assign their final destiny!

    Instead of just saying it is so. Wy not address the scripture of John 3;13 and Acts 2:34, and Paul speaking of Christ being the first to rise. That is fair of me to ask this is it not?
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: The Timing of Justification and Imputation

    Another part of scripture I find compeeling to support justification at the cross is Romans 5:7



    6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
    7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
    8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life


    Verse 7 shows that were were not righteouss. That is why Christ died for us. The righteouss for the unrighteouss. IT says a righteous man would not die for another righteouss man..
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: The Timing of Justification and Imputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Kentucky Kid
    IMPUTATION AT THE CROSS: God tells us in Romans 4:25 " Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification". Literally it can read Who was delivered because our offences, and was raised again because our justification. Sin demands death. Righteousness demands life. The grave could not hold Christ because He established a perfect righteousness for the elect at the cross. Righteousness demands life. Christ was resurrected from the grave BECAUSE OUR JUSTIFICATION: in other words, when Christ was resurrected our justification had already taken place- at the cross. And the only way one can be justified is by righteousness imputed. So, when speaking "in time", Christ's righteousness was imputed to us at the cross: "raised again for our justification".......Kentucky Kid
    I agree with this 100%. Even without adding the quotation remark "in Time" I never see scripture use this phrase regarding this transaction. So why must we add it? That is my delima
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: The Timing of Justification and Imputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    I agree John. Anthony's response is very puzzling to me. Would you please clarify for us Anthony?
    Just a quick comment and I have to go. I guess I don't see where my comment was puzzling. It's very basic. We are conceived in sin, Christ was not. This was the reason for my reference to Romans 5. Our conception in sin is from Adam, via imputation. That is all Hoeksema was saying.

    Puzzled at the puzzlement.

    ~Anthony
    Anthony Lawson, sinner saved by imputed righteousness

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    Re: The Timing of Justification and Imputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    So if the elect's sin was not imputed to Christ based on his obedience. What moment in time is imputation of the elect's sin based upon?
    See my comment to John. The elect's sin is imputed to Christ on the Cross, you should know by now where I stand on this, per my stand on the Christ made sin issue. Christ was not conceived in sin like we are which is through imputation. We are discussing two separate imputations: the sin of Adam to all man, and the sin of the elect to Christ at the Cross. Again, I think this is basic and there must be some misunderstanding of what I was saying. I thought my reference to Romans 5 would have made things clear.

    ~Anthony
    Anthony Lawson, sinner saved by imputed righteousness

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    Re: The Timing of Justification and Imputation

    Thanks Anthony.
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    Re: The Timing of Justification and Imputation

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah

    Ok Ray: Here it goes. Where did Elijah go?

    First and foremost, The account of Elijah writing a letter to Jehorom recorded in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15 shows the Elijah was transported "Some where else" in the whirlwind. Scriptures speak of 3 heavens. 1) The Heaven of Gods throne(
    2 Corinthians 12:2, 2) Genesis 22:17 "I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heaven . . . " This is outer space per se, where the stars and planets are, 3) Jeremiah 4:25 " . . . and all the birds of the heavens were fled." This is our atmosphere. This is where Elijah was seen traveling. And obviously somewhere else on the earth. Exactly like the account of Steven in Acts. The SPirit took him to some other place.


    Well it seems superman has nothing on Elijah. I wonder who exactly seen Elijah travelling about?? Maybe they were mistaken. Maybe it was ET ??

    There is nothing in the verses that state that Elijah was taken "somewhere else" Maybe you are reading this from the Watchtower Bible??

    Anyways, here is what Gill states regarding 2 Chronicles 21:

    2 Chronicles 21:12

    Ver. 12. And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet,.... Not what was written by him after his ascension to heaven, and from thence came to Jehoram, even seven years after that, as say some Jewish writers {z}; nor was it a writing from another person of the same name in those times, since of such an one we nowhere read; nor from Elisha bearing the name of Elijah, having a double portion of his spirit on him, since he is never so called; but this was a writing of Elijah's before his ascension, who, foreseeing by a spirit of prophecy what Jehoram would be guilty of, wrote this, and gave it to one of the prophets, as Kimchi suggests, and most probably to Elisha, to communicate it to him at a proper time; and who might, as the above writer intimates, think it came immediately from heaven:"


    .. I will respond more in due course, LOL
    Greetings and salutations, el rana

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    Re: The Timing of Justification and Imputation

    I get it now. Thanks Anthony
    The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." ÖJohn Gill

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    Re: The Timing of Justification and Imputation

    Quote Originally Posted by ray kikkert
    [/font]

    Well it seems superman has nothing on Elijah. I wonder who exactly seen Elijah travelling about?? Maybe they were mistaken. Maybe it was ET ??

    There is nothing in the verses that state that Elijah was taken "somewhere else" Maybe you are reading this from the Watchtower Bible??

    Anyways, here is what Gill states regarding 2 Chronicles 21:

    2 Chronicles 21:12

    Ver. 12. And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet,.... Not what was written by him after his ascension to heaven, and from thence came to Jehoram, even seven years after that, as say some Jewish writers {z}; nor was it a writing from another person of the same name in those times, since of such an one we nowhere read; nor from Elisha bearing the name of Elijah, having a double portion of his spirit on him, since he is never so called; but this was a writing of Elijah's before his ascension, who, foreseeing by a spirit of prophecy what Jehoram would be guilty of, wrote this, and gave it to one of the prophets, as Kimchi suggests, and most probably to Elisha, to communicate it to him at a proper time; and who might, as the above writer intimates, think it came immediately from heaven:"


    .. I will respond more in due course, LOL
    Could you just stop with Gill for one moment Ray. Why do you not question it happening to Stephen, but with Elijah you have an issue.

    I presented what you asked for, with scripture, no confession nor comentary.

    Now I ask you do the same or drop it. Please address the scriptures without paroting Gill. ASk you pastor as you said you would.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: The Timing of Justification and Imputation

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    Could you just stop with Gill for one moment Ray. Why do you not question it happening to Stephen, but with Elijah you have an issue.

    I presented what you asked for, with scripture, no confession nor comentary.

    Now I ask you do the same or drop it. Please address the scriptures without paroting Gill. ASk you pastor as you said you would.
    Oh I am far from being done Joe.

    I have yet to comment on your definition of just what exactly happened to Stephen and where in fact he went.

    But first I have to deal with the next vain philospohy of Joe and that found in 2 Corinthians 12; 1, 2.

    Here Paul is speaking of himself. Now I do not know Joe why you picked on this verse to give advocacy for both Elijah and Stephen to be flying about in the universe. (maybe to go on another wild adventure with ET perhaps??)

    Anyways, lets deal with the text Joe.

    Here is John Calvins commentary on the above text:

    1. It is not expedient for me to glory. Now, when as it were in the middle of the course, he restrains himself from proceeding farther, and in this way he most appropriately reproves the impudence of his rivals and declares that it is with reluctance, that he engages in this sort of contest with them. For what a shame it was to scrape together from every quarter commendations, or rather to go a-begging for them, that they might be on a level with so distinguished a man! As to the latter, he admonishes them by his own example, that the more numerous and the more excellent the graces by which any one of us is distinguished, so much the less ought he to think of his own excellence. For such a thought is exceedingly dangerous, because, like one entering into a labyrinth, the person is immediately dazzled, so as to be too quick-sighted in discerning his gifts, 3 while in the mean time he is ignorant of himself. Paul is afraid, lest this should befall him. The graces conferred by God are, indeed, to be acknowledged, that we may be aroused, -- first, to gratitude for them, and secondly, to the right improvement of them; but to take occasion from them to boast -- that is what cannot be done without great danger.
    For I will come 4 to visions."I shall not creep on the ground, but will be constrained to mount aloft. Hence I am afraid, lest the height of my gifts should hurry me on, so as to lead me to forget myself." And certainly, if Paul had gloried ambitiously, he would have fallen headlong from a lofty eminence; for it is humility alone, that can give stability to our greatness in the sight of God.
    Between visions and revelations there is this distinction -- that a revelation is often made either in a dream, or by an oracle, without any thing being presented to the eye, while a vision is scarcely ever afforded without a revelation, or in other words, without the Lord's discovering what is meant by it. 5
    2. I knew a man in Christ. As he was desirous to restrain himself within bounds, he merely singles out one instance, and that, too, he handles in such a way as to show, that it is not from inclination that he brings it forward; for why does he speak in the person of another rather than in his own? It is as though he had said, "I should have preferred to be silent, I should have preferred to keep the whole matter suppressed within my own mind, but those persons 6 will not allow me. I shall mention it, therefore, as it were in a stammering way, that it may be seen that I speak through constraint." Some think that the clause in Christ is introduced for the purpose of confirming what he says. I view it rather as referring to the disposition, so as to intimate that Paul has not here an eye to himself, but looks to Christ exclusively.
    When he confesses, that he does not know whether he was in the body, or out of the body, he expresses thereby the more distinctly the greatness of the revelation. For he means, that God dealt with him in such a way, 7 that he did not himself understand the manner of it. Nor should this appear to us incredible, inasmuch as he sometimes manifests himself to us in such a way, that the manner of his doing so is, nevertheless, hid from our view. 8 At the same time, this does not, in any degree, detract from the assurance of faith, which rests simply on this single point -- that we are aware that God speaks to us. Nay more, let us learn from this, that we must seek the knowledge of those things only that are necessary to be known, and leave other things to God. (Deuteronomy 29:29.) He says, then, that he does not know, whether he was wholly taken up -- soul and body -- into heaven, or whether it was his soul only, that was caught up.
    Fourteen years ago. Some 9 enquire, also, as to the place, but it does not belong to us to satisfy their curiosity. 10 The Lord manifested himself to Paul in the beginning by a vision, when he designed to convert him from Judaism to the faith of the gospel, but he was not then admitted as yet into those secrets, as he needed even to be instructed by Ananias in the first rudiments. 11 (Acts 9:12.) That vision, therefore, was nothing but a preparation, with the view of rendering him teachable. It may be, that, in this instance, lie refers to that vision, of which he makes mention also, according to Luke's narrative. (Acts 22:17.) There is no occasion, however, for our giving ourselves much trouble as to these conjectures, as we see that Paul himself kept silence respecting it for fourteen years, 12 and would not have said one word in reference to it, had not the unreasonableness of malignant persons constrained him.
    Even to the third heaven. He does not here distinguish between the different heavens in the manner of the philosophers, so as to assign to each planet its own heaven. On the other hand, the number three is made use of (kat ejzoch<n) by way of eminence, to denote what is highest and most complete. Nay more, the term heaven, taken by itself, denotes here the blessed and glorious kingdom of God, which is above all the spheres, 13 and the firmament itself, and even the entire frame-work of the world. Paul, however, not contenting himself with the simple term, 14 adds, that he had reached even the greatest height, and the innermost recesses. For our faith scales heaven and enters it, and those that are superior to others in knowledge get higher in degree and elevation, but to reach the third heavens has been granted to very few.
    4. In paradise. 15 As every region that is peculiarly agreeable and delightful 16 is called in the Scriptures the garden of God, it came from this to be customary among the Greeks to employ the term paradise to denote the heavenly glory, even previously to Christ's advent, as appears from Ecclesiasticus. (Sirach, 40, 17, 27.) It is also used in this sense in Luke 23:43, in Christ's answer to the robber -- "To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise," that is, "Thou shalt enjoy the presence of God, in the condition and life of the blessed."

    "I will come Marg 'For I will' Our Translators have omitted (ga<r), for, in the text, evidently supposing that it is a mere expletive. Doddridge renders it ' nevertheless.' But it seems to me that it contains an important sense, and that it should be rendered by then. ' Since it is not fit that I should glory, then I will refer to visions, etc. I will turn away, then, from that subject, and come to another.' Thus the word (ga<r), for, is used in John 7:41, ' Shall then (mh< ga<r) Christ come out of Galilee?' Acts 8:31, ' How can I then (tw~v ga<r) except some man should guide me?'" -- Barnes. Granville Penn renders the passage as follows: "Must I needs boast? it is not good indeed, yet I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord." This rendering he adopts, as corresponding with the reading of the Vat. and most ancient MS. Kauca~sqai dei~ ouj sumfe>ron me<n ejleu>somai de< eijv ojptasi>av kai< ajpokalu>yeiv Kuri>ou -- Ed.
    5 "C'est qu'il sign/fie en ce qui s'est presente a nous;" -- "What he intends in what is presented to our view."
    "Visions" (ojptasi>av) -- symbolical representations of spiritual and celestial things, in which matters of the deepest importance are exhibited to the eve of the mind by a variety of emblems, the nature and properties of which serve to illustrate those spiritual things. -- Revelations (ajpokalu>yeiv) -- a manifestation of things not before known, and such as God alone can make known, because they are a part of his own inscrutable counsels." -- Dr. A. Clarke. -- Ed.

    6 "Ces opiniastres ambitieux;" -- "Those ambitious, obstinate persons."

    7 "Que Dieu a tellement besongne et precede enuers luy;" -- That God had in such a manner wrought and acted towards him."

    8 "Est incomprehensible a nostre sens;" -- "Is incomprehensible to our mind."

    9 "Ne se contentans point de ceci;" -- "Not contenting themselves with this."

    10 "Mais nous n'auons point delibere, et aussi il n'est pas en nous de satisfaire a leur curiosite;" -- "But we have not determined as to this, and it does not belong to us to satisfy their curiosity."

    11 "Es premiers commencemens de la religion;" -- "In the first elements of religion."

    12 "This vision Paul had kept secret for fourteen years. He had doubtless often thought of it; and the remembrance of that glorious hour was doubtless one of the reasons why he bore trials so patiently, and was willing to endure so much. But before this he had had no occasion to mention it. He had other proofs in abundance that he was called to the work of an Apostle; and to mention this would savour of pride and ostentation. It was only when he was compelled to refer to the evidences of his apostolic mission that he refers to it here." -- Barnes. -- Ed.

    13 "Par dessus tons les cieux;" -- "Above all the heavens."

    14 "Non content de nommer simplement le ciel;" -- "Not contented with simply employing the term heaven."

    15 "The word paradise (para>deisov) occurs but three times in the:New Testament, (Luke 23:43, 2 Corinthians 12:4, and Revelation 2:7.) It occurs often in the Septuagint, as the translation of the word garden, (Ng) gan; and of the word (odrp) pardes, in Nehemiah 2:8, Ecclesiastes 2:5, Cant. 2:13. It is a word which had its origin in the language of Eastern Asia, and which has been adopted in the Greek, the Roman, and other western languages. In Sanscrit, the word paradesha means a land elevated and cultivated; in Armenian, pardes denotes a garden around the house, planted with trees, shrubs, grass:for use and ornament. In Persia, the word denotes the pleasure-gardens, and parks with wild animals, around the country residences of the monarchs and princes. Hence it denotes, in general, a garden of pleasure; and in the New Testament is applied to the abodes of the blessed after death, the dwelling-place of God, and of happy spirits; or to heaven as a place of blessedness." -- Barnes. -- Ed.

    16 "Toute region delectable et excellente en fertilite et abundance de biens de la terre;" -- "Every region that is delightful and distinguished by fertility and abundance of the good things of the earth."

    ...... so Joe even here the idea of floating about in the universe is NOT what is meant with the apostle.

    Man, with all these saints floating about , it is a wonder they have not bumped into each other.

    But in Joe's world they do and greet each other with " greetings and hallucinations"........ LOL
    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

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    Re: The Timing of Justification and Imputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby
    Answers to Joe:
    Outrageous! Have you read Rom. 8:29-30? Iím sure that you have--but the truth of the passage is 100% at odds with what you are saying here. God did not only justify his elect from eternity, he GLORIFIED his elect from eternity! Yes, our future glorification in the New Earth (yet to be realized in history) was sure, certain, and settled transcendent of all time and space! The glorification of Christís saints is a future event in linear history yet already accomplished in Godís glorious plan as if it is PAST history! The same with justification. So those who deny eternal justification are AGAINST scripture as sure and certain as Pelagians, Semi-Pelagians, Arminians, Wesleyans, Amyraldians, Augustinians, infralapsarians, and any other Ďismí that would deny Godís full sovereignty
    Amen Bob! Amen! It's one thing to be ignorant of this doctrine, but it's another thing to actively fight against it. Those that would oppose Justification from Eternity and call it a blasphemy have not yet been enlightened to the truth and are indeed denying the Sovereignty of God. They are denying God Himself for to deny His attributes is to deny Him. To make God bound to time or to make Him mutable is to side with pelagianism.

    I lump those that would fight against this doctrine with pelagians and any other group that would deny the Sovereignty of God! I have hopes for those on this site that aren't clear in their understanding and the men who preached in Albany. But if they continually reject this doctrine, I will have to conclude that I am not united with them in the doctrine of Christ. This is true for both those who believe that God's people are not justified before the cross or before conversion because they share the exact same error. Those that fight against justification from eternity make God dependent upon what happens in time and thus have fashioned a god after their own vain imagination.
    This is my signature.

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