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Thread: Reformed Principles of Bible Translation

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    Reformed Principles of Bible Translation

    Attached is an article I wrote on Reformed Principles of textual criticism and Bible translation and how to evaluate the current versions.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Reformed Principles of Bible Translation

    What is your estimation of Bruce Metzger and his writings on NT textual criticism; is there anything better?
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Reformed Principles of Bible Translation

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby
    What is your estimation of Bruce Metzger and his writings on NT textual criticism; is there anything better?
    I have the GNT and the Commentary on th GNT by Metger, Black, Arland, Matthew etc ...
    Had it for 21 years and I have yet to find anything better.

    Annoying things is, I spent loads on books from 84 to 90 and now, most you can get for free on the net. Alas though, nothings beats reading a book in your hands.

    A good saying from Metzger...

    "That message must not be disguised in phrases that are no longer clear, or hidden under words that have changed or lost their meaning; it must be presented in language that is direct and plain and meaningful to people today".

    Preface to the NRSV

    Dr. Bruce M. Metzger, professor of New Testament at Princeton University

    David

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    Re: Reformed Principles of Bible Translation

    While some of Metzger's research is valuable, I believe his overall approach to textual criticism to be flawed and for reasons explained in my article I believe that it is impossible for someone to truly subscribe to the WCF and hold to his views. I have greatly appreciated Maurice Robinson's and John Willliam Burgon's writings on textual criticism from a scientific perspective as well as Theodore Letis, Turretin, and Richard Muller from a theological perspective. My own position is based on the writings of these men plus taking it a step or two further.

    As Robinson explains, Metzger's argument is strongest in something like his commentary on the Greek New Testament. He can deal with each textual variant individually and produce a possible answere (if not always probable) for each variant individuallly. However, if you stop looking at everything at a micro level and look at the documents as a whole, Metzger's explanations seem less and less likely and resultant text bares no resemblance to any manuscript on the planet. Letis also complains that conversations among the committee were often not recorded in the commentary on the Greek New Testament when certain members disagreed with Metzger such as on John 1:18. Robinson shows in his paper that Metzger's dogmatic assertion that when scribes are faced with two possible readings, conflation was the normal habit is unfounded based upon the actual textual evidence. Robinson is also the only one to have completed a full collation of the mss dealing with the woman caught in adultery.

    Robinson's paper can be read here: http://rosetta.reltech.org/TC/vol06/Robinson2001.html My own reasons for adopting the text are theological rather than Robinson's more scientific approach but the information he provides is still extremely helpful.

    Theodore Letis wrote a book called The Ecclesiastical Text which can be ordered here: http://www.kuyper.org/thetext/ecctext.html I am in strong disagreement with Letis' extreme post-critical stance but the information he provides regarding the history of Reformational thought on textual criticism is invaluable.

    Turretin's work on Scripture can be found in his Institutes of Enclenctic Theology or found here: http://www.monergism.com/thethreshol...scripture.html

    Richard Muller's volume on Holy Scripture from the Post-Reformation Reformed Dogmatics series contains extensive information about the post-reformation views of textual criticism and can be ordered here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/080...lance&n=283155

    The long awaited hardcopy version of the 2005 Robinson/Pierpont text based upon the Byzantine textform can now be ordered from Amazon for the relatively low price of $17.95. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/075...iltonbookpu-20
    It contains the article written by Robinson above as well as another helpful introductory article. The layout of the book is really nice. The 2000 edition of just the Greek text can also be downloaded here: http://www.byztxt.com/download/
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Reformed Principles of Bible Translation

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby
    What is your estimation of Bruce Metzger and his writings on NT textual criticism; is there anything better?
    What about the KJ3 being produced by Soveriegn Grace Publishers. Jay P Green has written many books in defense of 5 pt. calvinism.

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    Re: Reformed Principles of Bible Translation

    I don't own a copy of the 2005 edition. I do have an older edition and I appreciate the 4 volume interlinear that they publish. The text for the New Testament that they use for the NT is the same as the KJV/NKJV which I believe is superior to the Greek text used for most modern versions but inferior to the Byzantine text form. The translation method is often schoolman like and doesn't take into account the different uses of different cases in different contexts. Although "of" is the way people are often taught to translate the genitive in their first year of Greek it does not convey the sense in every instance. There were a number of typos in previous editions and hopefully these have been cleared up. The Modern King James Version he put out was particularly bad.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Reformed Principles of Bible Translation

    WB, you can go to SGP website and read the new KJ3 on line. Their publishing it this month, going to order 4 copies. The underlying text is why I want to purchase this translation. The translation seems most excellent, altho Im no 'scholar'. They have vastly improved the LITV which is now the KJ3.

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    Re: Reformed Principles of Bible Translation

    I read some of the material on the site and Green seems to get more and more sensationalistic as time goes on. There simply isn't usually a one to one correspondence between Greek ane English or Hebrew and English words and to claim that he gives all the grammatical forms as God has written them is absurd. God didn't write in English and grammatical constructions are different in each. Also, if he's going to complaining about the use of Lord, it would seem far better to use the word Yahweh rather than Jehovah which is the result of bad transliteration. I just glanced over some passages I'm pretty familiar with as they are translated in the KJ3:

    I have no idea how he got "cultivate". "Work out" is pretty literal translation. "Cultivate" seems to actually be a paraphrase to avoid theological difficulty. He translates the same word as "work out" in 2 Cor. 4:17. It also seems that if a true literalness were the goal in 1 Tim. 1:15 he would use the word "first" or maybe "foremost" rather than "chief."

    I guess I was really excited about the LITV when I first heard about it while I was in my first year of Greek but the more I learned Greek the less I was excited. The fact that their catalogue would make you think a book was coming out in a month when it took at times up to four years didn't help either. And the fact that he edited the living daylights out Burgon to make him say what he would like him to say or sometimes just made it very difficult to read. I don't appreciate the tactics or the conspiracy theories found in the Unholy Hands on the Bible series and all the other nonsense.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Reformed Principles of Bible Translation

    Let me truthful here, Ive been to this sight of 5solas many times in the past 3 months. Ive been known as Buckyteeth, peaches, Spanky and now ssmstmspm. I do not desire controversy and I have seen that foremost in this forum that the Admin and moderators hold to a different view of some things that we may disagree on. IF you will allow me to stay on, I will not accidentally inflame the masses with my beliefs, but only post items that I may disagree upon. I understand that this forum is foremost for predestinarian individuals. If I post anything that is deemed unreasonable I will not be back to post anything at all. I do enjoy the forum in that it presents the belief in SUPRLAPSARIAN theology that many in my fellowship do not understand. They would be wise to read this forum to become aquainted with the theology. I do desire to correspond with this network and Ill assure you stay out of threads that I have no business posting in. I look forward to Brandon's comments on the bible conference because my wife;s father went to many of them in years past. Maybe I could share some of her and his' experince from them that might make for enjoyable reading. Sincerely, Steven McCurdy from NC.

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    Re: Reformed Principles of Bible Translation

    Whether you are allowed to participate or not is to be determined by the person who suspended you originally.
    This is my signature.

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    Re: Reformed Principles of Bible Translation

    Darth Gill, I understand. Ive benn banned by at least 2 people. Grace ambassoder and micheal hughes. Ill await there decision. I even would consider becoming a subscrber to the forum, just because I know it costs money to operate the forum.

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    Re: Reformed Principles of Bible Translation

    Scott, in the same way that I need others to give me a second, third or forth chance I am willing to give you another chance. However, I will wait to see what Milt thinks before saying either way.

    The unique place this forum holds on the internet and in the world for that matter gives us a huge responsibility to make our theological positions and our thoughts of opposing positions very clear. There are dividing lines that may very amongst the moderator team on some issues, but there is a definite line that we all draw when it comes to free-will and the not so logical views that usually accompany it; it appears you understand this.

    As I stated, if Milt gives the ok then I welcome you back; and I intend to hold you to what you have stated in the above post.

    Mike


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    Re: Reformed Principles of Bible Translation

    Quote Originally Posted by ssmstmspm
    Let me truthful here, Ive been to this sight of 5solas many times in the past 3 months. Ive been known as Buckyteeth, peaches, Spanky and now ssmstmspm. I do not desire controversy and I have seen that foremost in this forum that the Admin and moderators hold to a different view of some things that we may disagree on. IF you will allow me to stay on, I will not accidentally inflame the masses with my beliefs, but only post items that I may disagree upon. I understand that this forum is foremost for predestinarian individuals. If I post anything that is deemed unreasonable I will not be back to post anything at all. I do enjoy the forum in that it presents the belief in SUPRLAPSARIAN theology that many in my fellowship do not understand. They would be wise to read this forum to become aquainted with the theology. I do desire to correspond with this network and Ill assure you stay out of threads that I have no business posting in. I look forward to Brandon's comments on the bible conference because my wife;s father went to many of them in years past. Maybe I could share some of her and his' experince from them that might make for enjoyable reading. Sincerely, Steven McCurdy from NC.
    It is okay with me to restore you, but I would SUGGEST YOU BUY A VOWEL FROM VANA! ssmstmspm has no vowel and it is unpronounceble!

    Milt
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    My pledge to other members:
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    Re: Reformed Principles of Bible Translation

    Thanks, since I understand your sites beliefs, I'll probably just be a spectator. We've been around the main issues before anyway. No need to rehash what people can read for themselves in old threads. Well, since this thread is about bible translation, or reformed principals, how do most see textual criticism, in your opinion, is 'majority analysis' more reliable, or 'critical analysis' to be prefered. I have my thots on the matter, maybe someone else has some insight. This is a big subject in a circle I walk.

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    Re: Reformed Principles of Bible Translation

    I'm certainly not going to speak for most but as for me and my house, neither. Canonical analysis is to be preferred which results in the same basic text as the Byzantine textform or Majority textform but comes at it from a different. The question is why are these texts in the majority? It is because they were approved and accepted by the church.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Reformed Principles of Bible Translation

    Wildboar,
    Thank-you for the Word.doc

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    Re: Reformed Principles of Bible Translation

    Thanks, WB, for all of the book recommendations!

    An issue that has always bugged me since my 3 years of college Greek has been the notion that "tense always determines meaning"--which my professor back then insisted upon. It doesn't take much study of the Greek New Testament to see the flaw in this argument; for me it is obvious that the common koine Greek used by the NT writers was not excessively concerned with accuracy of tense--though it is impossible to accurately translate without knowing the tenses. I think that translators abuse this somewhat unpredictable use of NT Greek tense to push their preconceived meanings. Nonetheless, there is no way that a strict and doctrinaire separation of the perfect, aorist, imperfect, present continuous, future, etc. will stand up--including the use of participles. The most common flaw in tense argument that I encounter is the notion that the use of present continuous implies an ongoing and therefore imperfect, incomplete, progressive, or reversible action.

    If you have a recommendation as to who best treats this issue in a scholarly fashion I am interested. Thanks.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Reformed Principles of Bible Translation

    A.T. Robertson has a reasonably good treatment of this in his grammar. I do believe the various tenses have significance, just not the ones that certain people would like to assign to them. I don't buy into the modern verbal aspect theories which seek to do away with meaning in the tenses altogether. However, the idea that the present tense always indicates a continual action is absurd and I don't believe has been taught by anyone who really knows Greek. Context must determine the meaning. The "descriptive present" is the most common use in the New Testament for the present indicative. Here's a link which deals with a specific issue but also speaks a bit about the different uses of the present tense: http://www.restorationquarterly.org/...2404osburn.htm
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Reformed Principles of Bible Translation

    Thanks WB.

    I don't buy into the modern verbal aspect theories which seek to do away with meaning in the tenses altogether.

    Neither do I in any way, shape, or form. I just deny that translating the tense automatically interprets the passage without considering context, as you say.

    However, the idea that the present tense always indicates a continual action is absurd and I don't believe has been taught by anyone who really knows Greek. Context must determine the meaning.

    It is mostly the free-willers that use such arguments: "he who continuously believes now and always continues to believe in the future" as a translation of 'whoso believeth' in John 3:16 , as a very simple example. They try and imply that the tense automatically teaches that a true believer can lose faith and salvation. I have encountered this many times and there are a lot of NT passages that have been abused in this manner.

    I had a theologian serve me up "Campbell's pottage" once in a debate on Total Depravity. He was reputed to be one of the best of Campbellite scholars. His argument: the use of the present participle in Rom. 8:7 proves that the mind of fallen humanity is NOT carnal by nature from conception but rather by continuous choice in the present!
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Reformed Principles of Bible Translation

    I see two present indicatives in Romans 8:7 but no participles. Perhaps this Campbellite needs a course in basic Greek. Regardless, it would be absurd either way to take it to deny original sin. There's far too many people out there who know just enough Greek to say something stupid. There's a guy who comes into my work from time to time who claims to be writing a book about man being composed of body, soul, and spirit. He's convinced that he's the only one in history who has come up with this idea. He hasn't studied any Greek but has a strong's concordance. He doesn't like it when I point out passages where soul and spirit are used synonymously.

    His favorite theologian Lewis Sperry Chafer who bears a good portion of the blame for changing DTS from a Presbyterian seminary to what it is today and including something in the belief statement about unregenerate people who have saving faith. Sorry for rambling.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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