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Thread: obedience of satan and his demnons

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    Exclamation obedience of satan and his demnons

    This subject perked my interest in study this past Sunday. WHile discussing Mark 1, where Christ commanded the unclean spirits to leave the man and they immediately did. I asked the question, "Why does Satan and his legions obey better than believers? In every account in scripture it is the same result. Christ speaks, they immediately recognize who HE is, and obey. Man hears Him, sees His general revelation, yet does not fear Him or obey Him.

    What ye think of this?
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: obedience of satan and his demnons

    good observation! sad but "funny" too ! thanks

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    Re: obedience of satan and his demnons

    WHile discussing Mark 1, where Christ commanded the unclean spirits to leave the man and they immediately did. I asked the question, "Why does Satan and his legions obey better than believers? In every account in scripture it is the same result. Christ speaks, they immediately recognize who HE is, and obey. Man hears Him, sees His general revelation, yet does not fear Him or obey Him.


    Because Christ wasnít giving a suggestion here. Here we have a great example of--how God's decree will happen--being displayed in time for all to see. In the same way that God speaks things into being, Christ here caused this event to happen with His spoken word showing His divinity. There are other times where Christ gives general commands but is not enforcing His divine authority to cause.

    There is however another 'level' (which I'm sure you were not referring to Joe) when speaking about Absolute Predestination in which while we are disobedient to the general command we are obedient to God's decree (not that this justifies sin). If God caused us to be obedient to all of His general commands then there would be no need for grace and mercy, leaving us no need for The Christ.

    This terrifies some who do not understand God's immutable love for the elect. I personally find it very comforting.

    Sorry Joe if this was more than you asked for, Iím not trying to teach you. Itís hard to stop once you have peaked my interest. Good thread!


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    Re: obedience of satan and his demnons

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hughes



    Because Christ wasnít giving a suggestion here. Here we have a great example of--how God's decree will happen--being displayed in time for all to see. In the same way that God speaks things into being, Christ here caused this event to happen with His spoken word showing His divinity. There are other times where Christ gives general commands but is not enforcing His divine authority to cause.

    There is however another 'level' (which I'm sure you were not referring to Joe) when speaking about Absolute Predestination in which while we are disobedient to the general command we are obedient to God's decree (not that this justifies sin). If God caused us to be obedient to all of His general commands then there would be no need for grace and mercy, leaving us no need for The Christ.

    This terrifies some who do not understand God's immutable love for the elect. I personally find it very comforting.

    Sorry Joe if this was more than you asked for, Iím not trying to teach you. Itís hard to stop once you have peaked my interest. Good thread!
    I expect nothing less from you Michael!!!!!!


    If Christ Himself speaks that satan cannot be divided against himself, He most assuredly would not divide the kingdom of God against itself. I am leanign towrds the fact that satan and his minions have access to the heavenlies, ie Job, and we see dimly. But EVERY instance is the same, they immediately recognize Him, they ask not to be destroyed, and obey without question. Whereas believers all throughout scripture do the exact opposite.

    I also do not know if we can seperate Christ like you mentioned above. When His word commands something, I do not believe it is a mere suggestion.

    JK
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: obedience of satan and his demnons

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    I expect nothing less from you Michael!!!!!!


    If Christ Himself speaks that satan cannot be divided against himself, He most assuredly would not divide the kingdom of God against itself. I am leanign towrds the fact that satan and his minions have access to the heavenlies, ie Job, and we see dimly. But EVERY instance is the same, they immediately recognize Him, they ask not to be destroyed, and obey without question. Whereas believers all throughout scripture do the exact opposite.

    I also do not know if we can seperate Christ like you mentioned above. When His word commands something, I do not believe it is a mere suggestion.

    JK
    I think you tounched on something in your last post Joe that should be seriously thought about;

    But EVERY instance is the same, they immediately recognize Him
    - Why is it the men around Him were blind? The Messiah stood right in fron of them, but they had no clue.

    - The minds of men are blinded by sin.

    - Why isn't this the case with demons?

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    Re: obedience of satan and his demnons

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugly_Gaunt_Cow
    - Why isn't this the case with demons?
    I disagree. The minds of demons are very blind. They may have seen Christ as having authority over them, but they did not comprehend His purpose!
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    Re: obedience of satan and his demnons

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugly_Gaunt_Cow
    I think you tounched on something in your last post Joe that should be seriously thought about;



    - Why is it the men around Him were blind? The Messiah stood right in fron of them, but they had no clue.

    - The minds of men are blinded by sin.

    - Why isn't this the case with demons?
    Good point scott, that I forgot to mention. One answer in our study was because of our sinful nature, but I responded by saying who is "more" sinful than satan and demons!!!!! Hopefully this could generate more of a discussion thatn "God purposed it this way" (jestful jab at michael)

    I want to be clear here, I am not debating the absolute predestination of all events here. But there has to be a more substantial answer for this. I love the Lord, but yet sin miserably all the time, Satan and his demons HATE God with a passion unmeasurable, yet obey Him instantly.

    Another question that was asked during the study is this: "WHy does not Christ destroy them? Could this be considered mercy even to satan et al? Save the drowning pigs, there is no evidence in the writ when Christ confronts a demon, He directly destroys them, which they fear would happen.
    Mar 1:24 Saying, Let [us] alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

    Mat 17:18And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: obedience of satan and his demnons

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    I disagree. The minds of demons are very blind. They may have seen Christ as having authority over them, but they did not comprehend His purpose!
    Blind of what Brandan? Yes they are not omniscient. But they knew who He was. The Holy One of Israel. The messiah. WHy do we not see and bow down as servants as much as they? Not only do we not understand His purpose, but we do not even recognize His authority as quick and as much as they do.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: obedience of satan and his demnons

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    Blind of what Brandan? Yes they are not omniscient. But they knew who He was. The Holy One of Israel. The messiah. WHy do we not see and bow down as servants as much as they? Not only do we not understand His purpose, but we do not even recognize His authority as quick and as much as they do.
    The demons don't know what the Gospel is! If they did, they wouldn't work so dilligently to overthrow Christ. I would not be surprised if the demons held to the same concept of freewillism as most of humanity!
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    Re: obedience of satan and his demnons

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    I disagree. The minds of demons are very blind. They may have seen Christ as having authority over them, but they did not comprehend His purpose!
    If they knew about judgment, then they knew His purpose;

    If we make a comparison between statements made by men, and those made by the demons, It's clear form the text they had an understanding of who He was at the time, an understanding that surpassed the understanding of men;

    [Luk 4:31-36] "... And He came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days. And they were astonished at His doctrine, for His word was with authority.

    And in the synagogue there was a man who had a spirit of an unclean demon and cried out with a loud voice, saying, Let us alone! What is to us and to You, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know You, who You are, the Holy One of God.

    And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Be quiet and come out of him! And when the demon had thrown him into the midst, he came out of him, not harming him. And they were all amazed and spoke among themselves, saying, What a word is this! For with authority and power He commands the unclean spirits, and they come out."


    [Mat 8:23-29] "...And He entering into a boat, His disciples followed Him. And behold, a great tempest arose in the sea, so much so that the boat was covered with the waves. But He was asleep.

    And His disciples came to Him and awakened Him, saying, Lord, save us! We perish! And He said to them, Why are you afraid, little-faiths? Then He arose and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

    But the men marveled, saying, What kind of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!

    And when He had come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, two demon-possessed ones met Him, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one might pass by that way. And behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with You, Jesus, Son of God? Have You come here totorment us before the time?"


    [Mar 5:2-8] "...And when He had come out of the boat, immediately a man with unclean spirits met Him out of the tombs, who had his dwelling among the tombs.

    And no one could bind him, no, not with chains because he had often been bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been torn apart by him, and the fetters broken in pieces. Nor could anyone subdue him. And always, night and day, he was in the mountains and in the tombs, crying and cutting himself with stones.

    And when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshiped Him, and cried with a loud voice, and said, What is to me and to You, Jesus, son of the Most High God? I adjure You by God not to torment me. For He said to him, Come out of the man, unclean spirit! "



    [Luk 8:22-31] "... And it happened on a certain day that He went into a boat with His disciples. And He said to them, Let us go over to the other side of the lake. And they put out to sea.

    But as they sailed, He fell asleep. And a storm of wind came onto the lake. And they were being filled with water and were in jeopardy. And they came to Him and awakened Him, saying, Master, Master, we are perishing!

    Then being aroused, He rebuked the wind and the raging of the water. And they ceased, and there was a calm. And He said to them, Where is your faith? And being afraid, they marveled, saying to one another, Who then is this One? For He commands even the winds and water, and they obey Him!

    And they sailed down to the country of the Gadarenes, which is across from Galilee.And He going out onto land, He met a certain man out of the city, who had had demons a long time, and put on no clothes, nor stayed in a house, but among the tombs.

    And seeing Jesus, he cried out and fell down before Him and said with a loud voice, What is to me and to You, Jesus, Son of God the Most High? I beseech You, Do not torment me! (For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had seized him. And he had been kept bound in chains and in fetters, and he broke the bands and was driven into the deserted places by the demons.) And Jesus asked him, saying, What is your name? And he said, Legion; because many demons had entered into him. And they begged Him that He would not command them to go out into the abyss. "

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    Re: obedience of satan and his demnons

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    The demons don't know what the Gospel is! If they did, they wouldn't work so dilligently to overthrow Christ. I would not be surprised if the demons held to the same concept of freewillism as most of humanity!
    They obviously have no free will and know they are on the leash of God. Only permited to do what He allows. Hence their reaction every time they are confronted.

    I bet they know more than most men.!!!!

    Anyway, your point adds to my question more than. IF they dont know the Gospel, then why do they obey more than those who do!!!!
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: obedience of satan and his demnons

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    They obviously have no free will and know they are on the leash of God. Only permited to do what He allows. Hence their reaction every time they are confronted.

    I bet they know more than most men.!!!!

    Anyway, your point adds to my question more than. IF they dont know the Gospel, then why do they obey more than those who do!!!!
    In reading the different accounts where devils are brought to our attention from God, the Lord does show that they know who Christ is. We also know that devils go about and are under the submission of the Lord. They must submit to His Word. They are after all creatures made for a specific purpose. We also know that their eternal lot is fixed. The Lord has prepared a place for them. We also know that the Lord's purpose is not to purpose salvation for devils. We also know that they understand that their time is limited and their eternal destiny fixed. We also know that the Lord as with all things has set devils within His creation to do His good pleasure and that through them completes His sovereign will and counsel.

    The idea of obedience does not change for different creatures. All will submit to the command of God. The Lord does and brings about what He has purposed, He accomplishes it. The creature will do what the Lord purposes them to do. Devils submit to what the Lord says. Man submits to what the Lord says. The Lord directs the heart of man whether the creature is predestined to be a vessel of dishonor as their fellow creatures the devils, or whether the creature is predestined to be a vessel of honor.

    Both devils and man as creatures obey and cannot frustrate His sovereign purposes. Devils and man do though rail against God's purposes. Devils were appointed as reprobate creatures as were some of mankind.

    It does show that obedience and sacrifice in and of themselves does NOT please the Lord. Faithfulness of the sin cursed creature will NOT bring about redemption. A broken and contrite heart the Lord will not despise. He sent His Son to satisfy for these elect creatures as was His purpose in our Saviour from before the foundation of the world.

    With this gift of God in giving a soft and contrite heart, then the Lord will have pleasure in obedience and sacrifice because it is done in gratitude and thankfulness.

    That is what separates the obedience of the reprobate and the elect as the Lord has purposed. All honor and glory go to Him. Salvation is only , ever of the Lord. The Lord makes His chosen to see and understand this while we walk this veil of tears, everyday we learn this a little more. The reprobate are blinded to this , they do not understand and will hold down the truth in unrighteousness.
    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

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    Re: obedience of satan and his demnons

    Very well put Ray! I started to type something similar but I decided not to post it.

    In my first post I was only trying to get across the point that all that these demons were doing is what God has purposed them to do. We only have 33 years in the timeline of redemptive history to see God in the flesh. So during that time when Christ gives a command and it immediately happens--whether it be raising Lazarus from the dead, cursing a tree, casting out a demon or demons or healing a disease--its not as if these created things have a choice to obey or not. This is a visible example of the irresistible decree of God. There is however a difference in obedience to the written Law. While the Law is written God still does as He pleases with His creation, part of this includes the elect sinning.

    So my answer to Joeís question, "Why does Satan and his legions obey better than believers?" is that we are seeing the irresistible decrees of God in the devil's obedience to fulfilling God's purpose for them in His creation, and the same goes for the sin of the elect. The difference is the elect are redeemed and the devils are damned.


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    Re: obedience of satan and his demnons

    Ray and Mike. What purpose does it fulfil to decree the devils to obey immediately without question and decree the ones you love to resist, sin, disobey daily.

    I would also hope one can address my questiona botu a house divided cannot stand. I firmly believe this includes God's house. Why would He divide His own house? We talk of no free offer because that would be an insincere God. And I agree. So what is sincere and loving about a God who has the elects life in an hourly rollercoaster of vice then virture, vice then virtue. Sin then repentance, sin then repentance.

    Anyway, this will digress quickly and i am doing my best form not going into His fixed decree.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: obedience of satan and his demnons

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    Ray and Mike. What purpose does it fulfil to decree the devils to obey immediately without question and decree the ones you love to resist, sin, disobey daily.
    God's honor and glory.

    I would also hope one can address my questiona botu a house divided cannot stand. I firmly believe this includes God's house. Why would He divide His own house? We talk of no free offer because that would be an insincere God. And I agree. So what is sincere and loving about a God who has the elects life in an hourly rollercoaster of vice then virture, vice then virtue. Sin then repentance, sin then repentance.
    God's house is not divided. The Creator cannot be divided by the creature. All is fulfilled in Christ the Saviour as predestined before the foundations of the earth.

    Anyway, this will digress quickly and i am doing my best form not going into His fixed decree.
    If I were you Joe I would be a tad more careful in your line of questioning. To what purpose do you ask? God need not answer a nonsensical question put forth by you.

    His honor and glory come first and foremost. His predestinating purposes trump our puny vain philosophies. When was the last time you read an account of David's life? When was the last time you read the Psalms? You will find your answer in this elect child. The idea of a life of gratitude and thankfulness being the answer seems to be lost on you.
    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

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    Re: obedience of satan and his demnons

    Quote Originally Posted by ray kikkert



    God's house is not divided. The Creator cannot be divided by the creature. All is fulfilled in Christ the Saviour as predestined before the foundations of the earth.
    This is exactly my point ray which is not being addressed. This I am not doubting one second. Christ said satan will not fight against satan. Demons cannot fight against demons. So why would God fight against Himself? Dividing the house is the fruit of what you are proposing here. That God decreed faithful obedience of devils, but not His chosen. This is dividing his house Ray. We are the temple of the Holy SPirit paul says.

    I ask "Why do devils/satan/demons obey Christ without a hitch. no question and we do not"

    You say "God decreed it that way" Well so be it. Then I guess we move on.

    As Jack Nicholson said in "A few Good Men" to Tom Cruise. "Now I hope you did not fly me up here from Gitmo to talk about packing habits and hygene habits"

    There is much much more
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: obedience of satan and his demnons

    So why would God fight against Himself? Dividing the house is the fruit of what you are proposing here.


    How you draw this conclusion I have no idea. It is useless to try to explain this to you if you do not understand that God predestines all things for the purpose of His glory. If you believe and understand that God predestines all things for His glory then you should have no problem understanding what we are saying. But alas we have gone down this same olí road before to no avail.

    What most of us here see as logical conclusions of predestination you often oppose and when we give our 2 cents you still disagree without teaching us the way it should be.

    That God decreed faithful obedience of devils, but not His chosen.


    Its not faithful obedience because they are not obeying anything! They are doing what God caused them to do! You take one instance or letís say many of Christ casting out demons and call it faithful obedience and compare it to Godís purposes for sin in the electís life? There is no comparison here and we have shown you why but you simply disagree...fine!

    You say "God decreed it that way" Well so be it. Then I guess we move on.


    You got it...but obviously the question is still unsettled in you mind.

    There is much much more


    Well if there is 'much much more' then tell us what more there is! Lets here your thoughts Joe, you tell us why these demons obey so much more than the elect.


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    Re: obedience of satan and his demnons

    Ray and Mike. What purpose does it fulfil to decree the devils to obey immediately without question and decree the ones you love to resist, sin, disobey daily.
    These two are not related even though you keep trying to relate them. Christ moved these demons out of these people by His word to display His authority as God. The elect sin so that God can show them mercy.

    I would also hope one can address my questiona botu a house divided cannot stand. I firmly believe this includes God's house. Why would He divide His own house?
    Are you saying that God causing his elect to sin is dividing His house?


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    Re: obedience of satan and his demnons

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hughes
    These two are not related even though you keep trying to relate them. Christ moved these demons out of these people by His word to display His authority as God. The elect sin so that God can show them mercy.



    Are you saying that God causing his elect to sin is dividing His house?

    OK mike, now here is an answer I will discuss. This is good. And it was not that painful for you was it? This will allow a discussion at least.

    And yes, I am saying that exactly Mike. It is too dualistic for me. The struggle between good vs evil. But cause all by the same person.

    I would add that my take is that the devils/satan have access to the throne of God. They are above the line per se' We see dimly. They are aware of everything clearly. I get this from Job
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: obedience of satan and his demnons

    Ahha! Well this makes much more sense then. See we can't discuss this issue without coming to an agreement about Absolute Predestination. Since I believe in AP it follows logically that God would cause the elect to sin. Since you don't believe in AP it follows logically that you would see a problem with what Ray and I have posted. You know full well that Ray and I are AP which takes me back to your first reply:

    I expect nothing less from you Michael!!!!!!
    Well, here we are at square one again and I have no desire to discuss AP.


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