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Thread: Question on John Piper

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    Question on John Piper

    The following quote if from Piper's book The Passion of Jesus Christ. This comes from a chapter entitled "To Become a Ransom for Many". Does Piper completely deny limited atonement? I had always thought he was solidly reformed. I would appreciate your comments on the quote below, even if you believe that I am somehow misunderstanding him. I don't know how I could with his use of 1Tim 2 in this section, but it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.

    "How many did Christ effectively ransom from sin? He said
    that he came “to give his life as a ransom for many.” Yet not everyone
    will be ransomed from the wrath of God. But the offer is for
    everyone. “There is one mediator between God and men, the man
    Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all” (1 Timothy
    2:5-6). No one is excluded from this salvation who embraces the
    treasure of the ransoming Christ."

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    Re: Question on John Piper

    Piper is not a strong calvinist in my opinion and he teaches salvation by works contradicting much of his otherwise good work.
    This is my signature.

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    Re: Question on John Piper

    Jesus laid down His life for His sheep.

    Jesus did not lay down His life for the goats.

    As surely as I am here today all of the goats will be cast into the lake of fire.

    It is for the sheep and only for the sheep that Jesus Christ; the good Shepherd laid down His life.

    I know that God predestined all things that have or ever will come to pass.
    There are vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath.
    There are sheep and there are goats.
    There are elect sinners and there are reprobate sinners.
    I know that all the vessels of mercy shall obtain mercy.
    But I also know that all the vessels of wrath shall never obtain that mercy.
    All the Lord's sheep shall be saved.
    Goats will never be saved.
    All the elect will enter glory by the grace of God through Jesus Christ.
    The reprobate sinner never shall.
    For all those who go to hell it is their own fault.
    They can't blame God.
    All God did was to leave them alone, and not bother them.
    Goats never become sheep and sheep never become goats.
    Jesus said the following about lost sheep.
    Luk 15:4 What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
    Luk 15:5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
    Luk 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbors, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
    Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

    Lost sheep were never goats and never will be.

    A lost sheep may not know where home is, but the fact remains that they are still sheep.

    It is through the gospel that the great shepherd seeks and finds these lost sheep.

    Every single one will be found and brought into the fold.

    Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
    Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

    The Father gave the sheep to Jesus from the foundation of the world.

    Every one of these without exception will hear the voice of the shepherd through the gospel, and will come to Christ.

    Jesus said all that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    Only the sheep are Gods eternal election.

    God the Father gave all the sheep to Jesus Christ in the covenant made between the Father and the Son from all eternity.

    Jesus calls us His sheep.

    We are His by purchase.

    Christ purchased those whom He calls His own with His Own blood.

    He redeemed us with His own blood, so that we are not only His by eternal election, but also by redemption in time.

    The Holy Father gave us to Him upon condition that He should redeem us by His heart's blood.

    It was a huge price to pay, but Christ was willing to pay that price so that you and I would be brought into His fold forever.

    Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

    One thing that is common among our brothers and sisters who are identified as the Sheep of God is their humility and submission toward Him in seeing that salvation is totally by God's grace without taking any credit for themselves at all.

    We as the Saviors sheep have no grounds at all for boasting in our own righteousness because the Bible calls it filthy rags.

    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    We have no right to brag about our faith, as it is a gift of God.

    2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
    2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

    We have no right to brag about our repentance toward God, as we see that even repentance is a gift of God.

    We can say that we heard His voice through the gospel, obey His gospel, submit to Him, and trust in Him as our only righteousness.

    We are humbled by His mercy shown to us through the obedient life and death of Christ.

    We cannot boast about our love for God, but rather we praise God, for His gracious, unconditional love toward us in Christ Jesus.

    I can't speak for you, but I am very thankful for God's choice of me in Christ before time, and I know that I would have never chosen Him if it were not for the work of Gods sovereign grace.

    I thank Him for the faith and repentance that He gave me in Christ.

    Everything I said is different with Goats.

    They are self righteous, proud, haughty, and boastful.

    They do not give the glory, honor, and have the godly fear that His Holy Name requires and deserves.

    They boast of how they made a decision for Christ in their own freewill.

    They love to boast about their works, their righteousness, their love, and their dedication.

    2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


    Clearly the difference between the sheep and the goat is their nature.

    Who is it that makes the Sheep to differ from the Goats?

    Man cannot make the difference, only God can.

    The LORD will not share His glory.

    Salvation is of the LORD from start to finish.

    Lynn

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    Re: Question on John Piper

    Quote Originally Posted by ashamoun
    The following quote if from Piper's book The Passion of Jesus Christ. This comes from a chapter entitled "To Become a Ransom for Many". Does Piper completely deny limited atonement? I had always thought he was solidly reformed. I would appreciate your comments on the quote below, even if you believe that I am somehow misunderstanding him. I don't know how I could with his use of 1Tim 2 in this section, but it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.

    "How many did Christ effectively ransom from sin? He said

    that he came “to give his life as a ransom for many.” Yet not everyone
    will be ransomed from the wrath of God. But the offer is for
    everyone. “There is one mediator between God and men, the man
    Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all” (1 Timothy
    2:5-6). No one is excluded from this salvation who embraces the
    treasure of the ransoming Christ."
    If Piper did indeed state this he is preaching the arminian doctrine. He even uses the old arminian reference text of 1 Timothy 2.

    Ditch the garbage
    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

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    Re: Question on John Piper

    Quote Originally Posted by ray kikkert
    Ditch the garbage
    Amen!
    This is my signature.

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    Re: Question on John Piper

    Lynn, thank you so much! Your post is eloquent on the truth regarding the subject at hand! I could not have stated it as well.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Question on John Piper

    sufficient for all efficient for some is not truly Reformed.

    Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Re 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

    The Lamb is a reference to the Cross and the book of life is limited. They are presented together. Hence, the Lamb's work was limited to ITS book of life. The limited book of life is of the Cross. The Cross is limitede by the book of life. The Lamb was limited by the book of life.

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    Re: Question on John Piper

    Thank you all for your replies.

    Our church is forming small groups to study this book, and our pastor who I have always believed is solidly reformed will be preaching on this during the lenten season. If he doesn't strongly affirm that the atonement is limited to the sheep...Well, don't know what exactly I will do, but seriously consider a new church. Yet again

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    Re: Question on John Piper

    Quote Originally Posted by ashamoun
    Well, don't know what exactly I will do, but seriously consider a new church. Yet again
    Who says you need to be in a church? Just look for a group of people that believe the truth. If you can't find them, be prepared to stand alone.
    This is my signature.

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    Re: Question on John Piper

    If the congregation you assemble with needs some book to preach about, then it's a good indication that they have no desire for the word. My guess is that you will get lip service to the Atonement just to pacify you. Otherwise the actions you have already described speak loud enough.


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    Re: Question on John Piper

    Quote Originally Posted by ashamoun
    Thank you all for your replies.

    Our church is forming small groups to study this book, and our pastor who I have always believed is solidly reformed will be preaching on this during the lenten season. If he doesn't strongly affirm that the atonement is limited to the sheep...Well, don't know what exactly I will do, but seriously consider a new church. Yet again

    Ashamoun.......You use the term (lenten) in your above statement. It seems to me, that your church is still holding on to the GARBAGE OF ROME, for cleary this is a Roman Catholic term. Does your church also use the term (EUCHARIST)? or maybe (ADVENT)? It always amazes me how Protest-ants try to look and sound like their harlot mother ROME. ..........DITCH THE GARBAGE !

    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: Question on John Piper

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Nicholas
    Ashamoun.......You use the term (lenten) in your above statement. It seems to me, that your church is still holding on to the GARBAGE OF ROME, for cleary this is a Roman Catholic term. Does your church also use the term (EUCHARIST)? or maybe (ADVENT)? It always amazes me how Protest-ants try to look and sound like their harlot mother ROME. ..........DITCH THE GARBAGE !

    Nicholas
    Can you please explain further why these terms are not acceptable? Is it simply that they are Roman in nature, or do the terms, or what they represent contradict the Bible?

    I ask this question in sincerity, I don't know what you are eluding to as far as these terms go.

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    Re: Question on John Piper

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn
    Jesus laid down His life for His sheep.

    Jesus did not lay down His life for the goats.

    As surely as I am here today all of the goats will be cast into the lake of fire.

    It is for the sheep and only for the sheep that Jesus Christ; the good Shepherd laid down His life.

    I know that God predestined all things that have or ever will come to pass.
    There are vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath.
    There are sheep and there are goats.
    There are elect sinners and there are reprobate sinners.
    I know that all the vessels of mercy shall obtain mercy.
    But I also know that all the vessels of wrath shall never obtain that mercy.
    All the Lord's sheep shall be saved.
    Goats will never be saved.
    All the elect will enter glory by the grace of God through Jesus Christ.
    The reprobate sinner never shall.
    For all those who go to hell it is their own fault.
    They can't blame God.
    All God did was to leave them alone, and not bother them.
    Goats never become sheep and sheep never become goats.
    Jesus said the following about lost sheep.
    Luk 15:4 What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
    Luk 15:5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
    Luk 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbors, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
    Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

    Lost sheep were never goats and never will be.

    A lost sheep may not know where home is, but the fact remains that they are still sheep.

    It is through the gospel that the great shepherd seeks and finds these lost sheep.

    Every single one will be found and brought into the fold.

    Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
    Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

    The Father gave the sheep to Jesus from the foundation of the world.

    Every one of these without exception will hear the voice of the shepherd through the gospel, and will come to Christ.

    Jesus said all that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    Only the sheep are Gods eternal election.

    God the Father gave all the sheep to Jesus Christ in the covenant made between the Father and the Son from all eternity.

    Jesus calls us His sheep.

    We are His by purchase.

    Christ purchased those whom He calls His own with His Own blood.

    He redeemed us with His own blood, so that we are not only His by eternal election, but also by redemption in time.

    The Holy Father gave us to Him upon condition that He should redeem us by His heart's blood.

    It was a huge price to pay, but Christ was willing to pay that price so that you and I would be brought into His fold forever.

    Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

    One thing that is common among our brothers and sisters who are identified as the Sheep of God is their humility and submission toward Him in seeing that salvation is totally by God's grace without taking any credit for themselves at all.

    We as the Saviors sheep have no grounds at all for boasting in our own righteousness because the Bible calls it filthy rags.

    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    We have no right to brag about our faith, as it is a gift of God.

    2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
    2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

    We have no right to brag about our repentance toward God, as we see that even repentance is a gift of God.

    We can say that we heard His voice through the gospel, obey His gospel, submit to Him, and trust in Him as our only righteousness.

    We are humbled by His mercy shown to us through the obedient life and death of Christ.

    We cannot boast about our love for God, but rather we praise God, for His gracious, unconditional love toward us in Christ Jesus.

    I can't speak for you, but I am very thankful for God's choice of me in Christ before time, and I know that I would have never chosen Him if it were not for the work of Gods sovereign grace.

    I thank Him for the faith and repentance that He gave me in Christ.

    Everything I said is different with Goats.

    They are self righteous, proud, haughty, and boastful.

    They do not give the glory, honor, and have the godly fear that His Holy Name requires and deserves.

    They boast of how they made a decision for Christ in their own freewill.

    They love to boast about their works, their righteousness, their love, and their dedication.

    2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


    Clearly the difference between the sheep and the goat is their nature.

    Who is it that makes the Sheep to differ from the Goats?

    Man cannot make the difference, only God can.

    The LORD will not share His glory.

    Salvation is of the LORD from start to finish.

    Lynn
    Lynn my friend, this is a great quote, its bringing tears to my eyes as I read it...God has blessed your understanding of the meaning of Christ death....
    There is no such thing as preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what...is called Calvinism...It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    charles spurgeon

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    Re: Question on John Piper

    Quote Originally Posted by ashamoun
    Can you please explain further why these terms are not acceptable? Is it simply that they are Roman in nature, or do the terms, or what they represent contradict the Bible?

    I ask this question in sincerity, I don't know what you are eluding to as far as these terms go.
    Good questions ashamoun. The reason why I find these terms not acceptable, is because they are LITURGICAL in nature. The practices of these events are derived from the traditions of men, and were never a practice, I mean never! a practice that the new testament church ever engaged in. What is Liturgy, but the forms of prayer, acts and ceremonies used in the public worship of the church. Again, liturgy sets up an annual cycle in which are repeated the birth, death and resurrection, of Christ. To me, all these liturgical acts are nothing more than vain will worship.

    Gal. 4:9-10 " But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage. Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years." Also Read Co. 2:16-17

    What the terms represent, I have no problem with. because there is SUBSTANCE TO CHRIST AND HIS LIFE. I prefer to worship Christ. And I do not prefer to engage in liturgical and ceremonial acts of will worship, and the vain traditions of men.

    I hope you see my point................Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: Question on John Piper

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Nicholas
    Ashamoun.......You use the term (lenten) in your above statement. It seems to me, that your church is still holding on to the GARBAGE OF ROME, for cleary this is a Roman Catholic term. Does your church also use the term (EUCHARIST)? or maybe (ADVENT)? It always amazes me how Protest-ants try to look and sound like their harlot mother ROME. ..........DITCH THE GARBAGE !

    Nicholas
    Nick:

    Dont get too carried away as some reformed smokers do!!! Dont argue about words Paul says. This is the least of ones problems in the rcc. Just because the rcc uses certain terminology does not make the terms wrong.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: Question on John Piper

    Amen Nicholas! Men need not be bound to institutions or rituals which have no basis in Scripture. I also oppose the term "sacrament" because it represents a "means of grace." Let us ditch the garbage, and strive to find fellowship in pristine grace.
    This is my signature.

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    Re: Question on John Piper

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Nicholas
    Good questions ashamoun. The reason why I find these terms not acceptable, is because they are LITURGICAL in nature. The practices of these events are derived from the traditions of men, and were never a practice, I mean never! a practice that the new testament church ever engaged in. What is Liturgy, but the forms of prayer, acts and ceremonies used in the public worship of the church. Again, liturgy sets up an annual cycle in which are repeated the birth, death and resurrection, of Christ. To me, all these liturgical acts are nothing more than vain will worship.

    Gal. 4:9-10 " But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage. Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years." Also Read Co. 2:16-17

    What the terms represent, I have no problem with. because there is SUBSTANCE TO CHRIST AND HIS LIFE. I prefer to worship Christ. And I do not prefer to engage in liturgical and ceremonial acts of will worship, and the vain traditions of men.

    I hope you see my point................Nicholas
    I do. Never considered it in these terms.

    I will look at the provided text further. Thank you.

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    Re: Question on John Piper

    On SACRAMENT: The notion that physical things communicate or mediate the eternal grace of God in Christ should be as repulsive to a true believer as any other strong delusion that God has sent to those who hate the truth! Sacramentalism is a deception sent by God to those who love not the truth of the gospel but have extreme pleasure and joy in all that opposes Jesus Christ.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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