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Thread: God and Evil 3

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    God and Evil 3

    GOD AND EVIL –3

    As we continue on studying the place of evil in God’s creation and providence, let me make these observations:

    1. God is the first cause of all beings and events as the Creator and the upholder of His creation;
    2. In his decrees, God has purposed to work all things according the pleasure of His own will or purpose;
    3. This includes what He, Himself, will do, and what He will either cause or permit others to do.
    4. The Will or God as set forth in His decrees includes what He Does, what He causes others to do or what He permits or allows others to do.
    5. God is not the direct cause of any evil or any sin.
    6. God is the judicial cause of evil and sin upon persons as a payment or punishment for their sins and evil.
    7. Many times in the Old Testament, such persons as David and Job bypassed the second cause of sin and evil, such as Satan, and attributed the sin or evil upon them, as coming from God.

    Brother Royce Smith gives a excellent presentation of this last point in the following email reply to The Old School Baptist group:

    But since Christ stood slain from the foundation of the world before any sin or evil had occurred, it follows that God willed to permit it to exist and so ordered events that the capacity for evil in His creatures would have opportunity to be manifest in actual sin and evil. It also occurs to me that if, there were no sin or evil, there would be no manifestation of grace, Cf. Rom. 5:20, "Where sin did abound, grace did much more abound."

    Concerning the Hebrew word for "know, "it is yadah which corresponds with ginoskein, to know experientially. It denotes to learn, to perceive, to discern, to experience, to know how, to be skilled, etc.

    As to the source of evil or ra', Job believed it came from God as did good or tov (Job 2:10). The same words, tov and ra' are used in concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as are used in Job 2:10. Job says God is the source of both, although the evil came directly from Satan in that he brought the harm upon Job. Job nevertheless states correctly that the ultimate reason evil came is by the will of God or what we call the permissive will of God.

    Another passage in which the secondary cause is bypassed and the primary cause is credited with sending the evil is David when being cursed by Shimei. David explains God had bidden Shimei to curse (2 Sam. 16:10). Many say God would never do such a thing, but David says He did, and what is here written Paul says is for our learning (Romans 15:4). Yet, God was not the Author of Shimei's sin, and Shimei bore the punishment for his evil act of reviling the king.

    I take all this to mean God willed that curses be hurled at David for his sin of adultery and murder, and provided the opportunity for Shimei who hated David to curse him, yet did not force Shimei to curse David, but permitted it to occur according to His divine purpose. I think David so understood the episode as I have sought to explain it. A. W. Pink explains this whole issue very well in his comments on the Life of David on this passage.

    With Dr. Smith's excellent present in mind, let us now proceed with our notices of how the Bible gives more instances of God and Evil joined together.

    God and Evil Spirits

    The existence of evil spirits is well presented in the Scriptures. Many instances may be found in which the Lord sends these evils spirits upon reprobates inorder for them to add to their sins. There are other reasons such as it is God’s purpose to use these evil spirits to deceive the reprobates because of their already past sins and evil. Here are some instances:

    2 Samuel 3:39 And I am this day weak, though anointed king; and these men the sons of Zeruiah be too hard for me: the LORD shall reward the doer of evil according to his wickedness.

    1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
    1 Samuel 16:15 And Saul’s servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
    1 Samuel 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
    1 Samuel 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
    1 Samuel 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul’s hand.
    1 Samuel 19:9 And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.

    Here are other instances about an evil spirit:

    Judges 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:
    Acts 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
    Acts 19:16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

    The Lord Brings Evil:

    2 Samuel 17:14 And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, The counsel of Hushai the Archite is better than the counsel of Ahithophel. For the LORD had appointed to defeat the good counsel of Ahithophel, to the intent that the LORD might bring evil upon Absalom.

    2 Samuel 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.


    1 Kings 21:20 And Ahab said to Elijah, Hast thou found me, O mine enemy? And he answered, I have found thee: because thou hast sold thyself to work evil in the sight of the LORD.
    1 Kings 21:21 Behold, I will bring evil upon thee, and will take away thy posterity, and will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel,
    1 Kings 21:29 Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son’s days will I bring the evil upon his house.

    Instances of the Lord sending forth a LYING SPIRIT

    1 Kings 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
    1 Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
    2 Chronicles 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
    2 Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.

    The Lord Brings Evil

    2 Kings 21:12 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.
    2 Kings 22:20 Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again.
    1 Chronicles 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
    2 Chronicles 7:22 And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath he brought all this evil upon them.
    Nehemiah 13:18 Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath.
    Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
    Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

    Here is the account of God give evil and terrible judgment for his sins:

    2 Sam. 12:7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
    8 And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
    9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
    10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
    11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
    12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

    Here are Dr. Gill’s comments on this:

    Ver. 11. Thus saith the Lord, &c.] For what he said was not of himself, but under a spirit of prophecy:

    behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house: that is, evil persons, who should be guilty of evil things, and that as a chastisement of him for the sins he had committed, and those out of his own family, as Amnon and Absalom:

    and I will take thy wives before thine eyes; which is so expressed, because it was done in his lifetime, and he knowing it, but not able to hinder it, though he did not, strictly speaking, see it with his eyes:

    and give [them] unto thy neighbour; or friend, meaning his son Absalom, as they were:

    and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun; pointing to the sun in the firmament, and which might be then shining in the room where they were: and which is represented by Homer {u} as seeing all things, "and eyes" are ascribed to it here in the original; the meaning is, that this fact should be done in the daytime, openly and publicly, and was fulfilled, when by the advice of Ahithophel a tent was spread on the top of the house, and Absalom went in to his father’s concubines in the sight of all Israel, #2Sa 16:22.

    {u} Odyss. 11. ver. 119. & 12. ver. 380.

    The Lord God did this as punishment to King David. This is one of the several instances of God’s rewarding evil with more evil.

    Jeremiah 42:6 Whether it be good, or whether it be evil, we will obey the voice of the LORD our God, to whom we send thee; that it may be well with us, when we obey the voice of the LORD our God.
    Jeremiah 42:10 If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.
    Jeremiah 42:17 So shall it be with all the men that set their faces to go into Egypt to sojourn there; they shall die by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence: and none of them shall remain or escape from the evil that I will bring upon them.
    Jeremiah 44:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah; and, behold, this day they are a desolation, and no man dwelleth therein,

    Ezekiel 5:16 When I shall send upon them the evil arrows of famine, which shall be for their destruction, and which I will send to destroy you: and I will increase the famine upon you, and will break your staff of bread:
    Ezekiel 5:17 So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it.
    Ezekiel 6:10 And they shall know that I am the LORD, and that I have not said in vain that I would do this evil unto them.
    Ezekiel 6:11 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Smite with thine hand, and stamp with thy foot, and say, Alas for all the evil abominations of the house of Israel! for they shall fall by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence.
    Ezekiel 14:22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it.
    Daniel 9:14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.
    Joel 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
    Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
    Amos 9:4 And though they go into captivity before their enemies, thence will I command the sword, and it shall slay them: and I will set mine eyes upon them for evil, and not for good.
    Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

    Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
    Isaiah 47:11 Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know.

    In Conclusion

    With those verses I conclude this study of God and Evil in 3 parts. I understand the Scriptures to teach very clearly that God rewards sin and evil with more sin and evil. I understand the Scriptures to state that God does this, and in some cases, He did so directly and in other cases, He used means to accomplish His purpose.

    Let me site two passages in the New Testament to show this further:

    I Cor. 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
    19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
    20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord’s supper.
    21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
    22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
    23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
    24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
    25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
    26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.
    27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
    28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
    29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
    30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
    31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
    32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
    33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
    34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

    Dr. Gill comments upon verse 30:

    Ver. 30. For this cause many are weak and sickly, &c.] Because of their unworthy participation of the Lord’s supper, many in the Corinthian church were attended with bodily infirmities and diseases; either by way of fatherly chastisement and correction in such who were truly the Lord’s people, though they had behaved unworthily; or by way of punishment to such who were not, and had sinned very grossly:

    and many sleep; that is, die a corporeal death, which is often in Scripture signified by sleep, and frequently used of the saints, and their death, and may intend and include some of them here; for though the Lord might resent so far their unworthy conduct and behaviour at his table, as to remove them out of this world by death, yet their souls may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


    Rev. 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
    21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
    22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
    23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
    24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

    Dr. Gill comments upon verse 23:

    Ver. 23. And I will kill her children with death, &c.] Her popes, cardinals, priests, Jesuits, monks, friars, and all that join in the Romish apostasy, they shall be killed with death; there shall be an utter extirpation of them in God’s own time; or they shall be killed with the second death: antwm, when used alone, or as distinct from any other kind of death, signifies the plague; compare with this #2Ki 9:24 10:1,7;

    and all the churches: that shall be in being at the time of Rome’s destruction:

    shall know that I am he that searcheth the reins and heart; or am the omniscient God; which will be known by inflicting punishment on the followers of antichrist; when their hidden things of darkness will be brought to light, and exposed by him; and they shall receive the righteous reward of their evil practices, which they have coloured over, and glossed with specious pretences of religion and holiness, and a zeal for God and his glory, when they only meant themselves, the gratifying their carnal lusts, and securing their worldly interests, and amassing riches and honours to themselves:

    and I will give unto everyone of you according to your works; who have connived at, and joined with them in their evil deeds; as many as were seduced by the false prophetess to commit spiritual fornication with her: as Christ is omniscient, and does not judge according to the outward appearance of things, but knows the principles and ends of all actions, however covert they may be; so he is righteous in judging and in punishing, which will be according as men’s works are; and not one shall escape his righteous judgment, nor the due desert of their sins, though the punishment of some may be greater than that of others.


    Christ rewards the evil workers with more evil and He gives the reprobates according to their works even under the New Covenant. It is interesting to note, this is Jesus speaking and He said He will do these terrible things as a punishment against the wicked for their sins.

    Dr. Knollys comments:

    #Re 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

    And I will kill her children with death, etc.

    "Her children" were the children of whoredoms, begotten by corrupt doctrine, and in the sense, born of fornications; not that there was such a woman in the church, not that these "her children" were begotten by corporal fornication: But as the mother is a mystical woman, so "her children" are those that she seduced by her doctrine to commit fornication. And by children here, we are to understand some members of this church, who being seduced by Jezebel’s doctrine, did commit fornication, that is, both spiritual and corporal whoredom, which is called by Christ "their deeds." As the Nicolaitans had their doctrine and their deeds, so Jezebel had her doctrine and her deeds. By "killing her children with death" is meant, that they shall be destroyed by God’s just and righteous judgments. {#Jer 18:21} Therefore deliver up her children to the famine, and pour out their blood by the force of the sword.

    And all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts, etc.

    This is another testimony of Christ’s omnisciency. Before he told the churches that he knew their works; and now he gives them to understand, that he knows their hearts also: And the Churches shall know, that is, shall understand, confess and acknowledge that Christ hath been trying, searching, and examining the reins and hearts, that is to say, the inward bent and frame of the spirits of men. {#Jer 17:10} I the Lord search the hearts, and try the reins.

    And I will give unto every one of you (ministers and members) according to your works.

    Those works faith, love, patience, charity and service, which Christ commends, shall be rewarded; Christ will own them and crown them with acceptance, and with reward of grace and glory, saying, Well done good and faithful Servant, enter into the joy of thy Master. And those works or deeds of fornication and other evil doings, which Christ reproved and gave them space and time to repent of, and they repented not, Christ will also reward by executing his righteous judgments upon them, even unto death and eternal condemnation {#Ro 1:18 2Co 5:10 Ro 2:5,6,11} except they repent.


    FINISH

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    Re: God and Evil 3

    Quote Originally Posted by debtor2
    GOD AND EVIL Ė3

    As we continue on studying the place of evil in Godís creation and providence, let me make these observations:

    1. God is the first cause of all beings and events as the Creator and the upholder of His creation;
    2. In his decrees, God has purposed to work all things according the pleasure of His own will or purpose;
    3. This includes what He, Himself, will do, and what He will either cause or permit others to do.
    4. The Will or God as set forth in His decrees includes what He Does, what He causes others to do or what He permits or allows others to do.
    5. God is not the direct cause of any evil or any sin.
    6. God is the judicial cause of evil and sin upon persons as a payment or punishment for their sins and evil.
    7. Many times in the Old Testament, such persons as David and Job bypassed the second cause of sin and evil, such as Satan, and attributed the sin or evil upon them, as coming from God.

    Brother Royce Smith gives a excellent presentation of this last point in the following email reply to The Old School Baptist group:

    But since Christ stood slain from the foundation of the world before any sin or evil had occurred, it follows that God willed to permit it to exist and so ordered events that the capacity for evil in His creatures would have opportunity to be manifest in actual sin and evil. It also occurs to me that if, there were no sin or evil, there would be no manifestation of grace, Cf. Rom. 5:20, "Where sin did abound, grace did much more abound."

    Concerning the Hebrew word for "know, "it is yadah which corresponds with ginoskein, to know experientially. It denotes to learn, to perceive, to discern, to experience, to know how, to be skilled, etc.

    As to the source of evil or ra', Job believed it came from God as did good or tov (Job 2:10). The same words, tov and ra' are used in concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as are used in Job 2:10. Job says God is the source of both, although the evil came directly from Satan in that he brought the harm upon Job. Job nevertheless states correctly that the ultimate reason evil came is by the will of God or what we call the permissive will of God.

    Another passage in which the secondary cause is bypassed and the primary cause is credited with sending the evil is David when being cursed by Shimei. David explains God had bidden Shimei to curse (2 Sam. 16:10). Many say God would never do such a thing, but David says He did, and what is here written Paul says is for our learning (Romans 15:4). Yet, God was not the Author of Shimei's sin, and Shimei bore the punishment for his evil act of reviling the king.

    I take all this to mean God willed that curses be hurled at David for his sin of adultery and murder, and provided the opportunity for Shimei who hated David to curse him, yet did not force Shimei to curse David, but permitted it to occur according to His divine purpose. I think David so understood the episode as I have sought to explain it. A. W. Pink explains this whole issue very well in his comments on the Life of David on this passage.

    With Dr. Smith's excellent present in mind, let us now proceed with our notices of how the Bible gives more instances of God and Evil joined together.

    God and Evil Spirits

    The existence of evil spirits is well presented in the Scriptures. Many instances may be found in which the Lord sends these evils spirits upon reprobates inorder for them to add to their sins. There are other reasons such as it is Godís purpose to use these evil spirits to deceive the reprobates because of their already past sins and evil. Here are some instances:

    2 Samuel 3:39 And I am this day weak, though anointed king; and these men the sons of Zeruiah be too hard for me: the LORD shall reward the doer of evil according to his wickedness.

    1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
    1 Samuel 16:15 And Saulís servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
    1 Samuel 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
    1 Samuel 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
    1 Samuel 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saulís hand.
    1 Samuel 19:9 And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.

    Here are other instances about an evil spirit:

    Judges 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:
    Acts 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
    Acts 19:16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

    The Lord Brings Evil:

    2 Samuel 17:14 And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, The counsel of Hushai the Archite is better than the counsel of Ahithophel. For the LORD had appointed to defeat the good counsel of Ahithophel, to the intent that the LORD might bring evil upon Absalom.

    2 Samuel 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.


    1 Kings 21:20 And Ahab said to Elijah, Hast thou found me, O mine enemy? And he answered, I have found thee: because thou hast sold thyself to work evil in the sight of the LORD.
    1 Kings 21:21 Behold, I will bring evil upon thee, and will take away thy posterity, and will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel,
    1 Kings 21:29 Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his sonís days will I bring the evil upon his house.

    Instances of the Lord sending forth a LYING SPIRIT

    1 Kings 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
    1 Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
    2 Chronicles 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
    2 Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.

    The Lord Brings Evil

    2 Kings 21:12 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.
    2 Kings 22:20 Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again.
    1 Chronicles 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
    2 Chronicles 7:22 And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath he brought all this evil upon them.
    Nehemiah 13:18 Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath.
    Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
    Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

    Here is the account of God give evil and terrible judgment for his sins:

    2 Sam. 12:7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
    8 And I gave thee thy masterís house, and thy masterís wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
    9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
    10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
    11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
    12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

    Here are Dr. Gillís comments on this:

    Ver. 11. Thus saith the Lord, &c.] For what he said was not of himself, but under a spirit of prophecy:

    behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house: that is, evil persons, who should be guilty of evil things, and that as a chastisement of him for the sins he had committed, and those out of his own family, as Amnon and Absalom:

    and I will take thy wives before thine eyes; which is so expressed, because it was done in his lifetime, and he knowing it, but not able to hinder it, though he did not, strictly speaking, see it with his eyes:

    and give [them] unto thy neighbour; or friend, meaning his son Absalom, as they were:

    and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun; pointing to the sun in the firmament, and which might be then shining in the room where they were: and which is represented by Homer {u} as seeing all things, "and eyes" are ascribed to it here in the original; the meaning is, that this fact should be done in the daytime, openly and publicly, and was fulfilled, when by the advice of Ahithophel a tent was spread on the top of the house, and Absalom went in to his fatherís concubines in the sight of all Israel, #2Sa 16:22.

    {u} Odyss. 11. ver. 119. & 12. ver. 380.

    The Lord God did this as punishment to King David. This is one of the several instances of Godís rewarding evil with more evil.

    Jeremiah 42:6 Whether it be good, or whether it be evil, we will obey the voice of the LORD our God, to whom we send thee; that it may be well with us, when we obey the voice of the LORD our God.
    Jeremiah 42:10 If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.
    Jeremiah 42:17 So shall it be with all the men that set their faces to go into Egypt to sojourn there; they shall die by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence: and none of them shall remain or escape from the evil that I will bring upon them.
    Jeremiah 44:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah; and, behold, this day they are a desolation, and no man dwelleth therein,

    Ezekiel 5:16 When I shall send upon them the evil arrows of famine, which shall be for their destruction, and which I will send to destroy you: and I will increase the famine upon you, and will break your staff of bread:
    Ezekiel 5:17 So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it.
    Ezekiel 6:10 And they shall know that I am the LORD, and that I have not said in vain that I would do this evil unto them.
    Ezekiel 6:11 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Smite with thine hand, and stamp with thy foot, and say, Alas for all the evil abominations of the house of Israel! for they shall fall by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence.
    Ezekiel 14:22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it.
    Daniel 9:14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.
    Joel 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
    Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
    Amos 9:4 And though they go into captivity before their enemies, thence will I command the sword, and it shall slay them: and I will set mine eyes upon them for evil, and not for good.
    Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

    Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
    Isaiah 47:11 Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know.

    In Conclusion

    With those verses I conclude this study of God and Evil in 3 parts. I understand the Scriptures to teach very clearly that God rewards sin and evil with more sin and evil. I understand the Scriptures to state that God does this, and in some cases, He did so directly and in other cases, He used means to accomplish His purpose.

    Let me site two passages in the New Testament to show this further:

    I Cor. 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
    19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
    20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lordís supper.
    21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
    22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
    23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
    24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
    25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
    26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lordís death till he come.
    27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
    28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
    29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lordís body.
    30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
    31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
    32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
    33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
    34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

    Dr. Gill comments upon verse 30:

    Ver. 30. For this cause many are weak and sickly, &c.] Because of their unworthy participation of the Lordís supper, many in the Corinthian church were attended with bodily infirmities and diseases; either by way of fatherly chastisement and correction in such who were truly the Lordís people, though they had behaved unworthily; or by way of punishment to such who were not, and had sinned very grossly:

    and many sleep; that is, die a corporeal death, which is often in Scripture signified by sleep, and frequently used of the saints, and their death, and may intend and include some of them here; for though the Lord might resent so far their unworthy conduct and behaviour at his table, as to remove them out of this world by death, yet their souls may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


    Rev. 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
    21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
    22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
    23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
    24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

    Dr. Gill comments upon verse 23:

    Ver. 23. And I will kill her children with death, &c.] Her popes, cardinals, priests, Jesuits, monks, friars, and all that join in the Romish apostasy, they shall be killed with death; there shall be an utter extirpation of them in Godís own time; or they shall be killed with the second death: antwm, when used alone, or as distinct from any other kind of death, signifies the plague; compare with this #2Ki 9:24 10:1,7;

    and all the churches: that shall be in being at the time of Romeís destruction:

    shall know that I am he that searcheth the reins and heart; or am the omniscient God; which will be known by inflicting punishment on the followers of antichrist; when their hidden things of darkness will be brought to light, and exposed by him; and they shall receive the righteous reward of their evil practices, which they have coloured over, and glossed with specious pretences of religion and holiness, and a zeal for God and his glory, when they only meant themselves, the gratifying their carnal lusts, and securing their worldly interests, and amassing riches and honours to themselves:

    and I will give unto everyone of you according to your works; who have connived at, and joined with them in their evil deeds; as many as were seduced by the false prophetess to commit spiritual fornication with her: as Christ is omniscient, and does not judge according to the outward appearance of things, but knows the principles and ends of all actions, however covert they may be; so he is righteous in judging and in punishing, which will be according as menís works are; and not one shall escape his righteous judgment, nor the due desert of their sins, though the punishment of some may be greater than that of others.


    Christ rewards the evil workers with more evil and He gives the reprobates according to their works even under the New Covenant. It is interesting to note, this is Jesus speaking and He said He will do these terrible things as a punishment against the wicked for their sins.

    Dr. Knollys comments:

    #Re 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

    And I will kill her children with death, etc.

    "Her children" were the children of whoredoms, begotten by corrupt doctrine, and in the sense, born of fornications; not that there was such a woman in the church, not that these "her children" were begotten by corporal fornication: But as the mother is a mystical woman, so "her children" are those that she seduced by her doctrine to commit fornication. And by children here, we are to understand some members of this church, who being seduced by Jezebelís doctrine, did commit fornication, that is, both spiritual and corporal whoredom, which is called by Christ "their deeds." As the Nicolaitans had their doctrine and their deeds, so Jezebel had her doctrine and her deeds. By "killing her children with death" is meant, that they shall be destroyed by Godís just and righteous judgments. {#Jer 18:21} Therefore deliver up her children to the famine, and pour out their blood by the force of the sword.

    And all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts, etc.

    This is another testimony of Christís omnisciency. Before he told the churches that he knew their works; and now he gives them to understand, that he knows their hearts also: And the Churches shall know, that is, shall understand, confess and acknowledge that Christ hath been trying, searching, and examining the reins and hearts, that is to say, the inward bent and frame of the spirits of men. {#Jer 17:10} I the Lord search the hearts, and try the reins.

    And I will give unto every one of you (ministers and members) according to your works.

    Those works faith, love, patience, charity and service, which Christ commends, shall be rewarded; Christ will own them and crown them with acceptance, and with reward of grace and glory, saying, Well done good and faithful Servant, enter into the joy of thy Master. And those works or deeds of fornication and other evil doings, which Christ reproved and gave them space and time to repent of, and they repented not, Christ will also reward by executing his righteous judgments upon them, even unto death and eternal condemnation {#Ro 1:18 2Co 5:10 Ro 2:5,6,11} except they repent.


    FINISH
    excellent...These point out in a thought out and biblical way how God is the absolute First cause of everything, and that includes as secondary causes the wickedness and sinfulness of men and devils...
    There is no such thing as preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what...is called Calvinism...It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    charles spurgeon

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    Re: God and Evil 3

    As to the source of evil or ra', Job believed it came from God as did good or tov (Job 2:10). The same words, tov and ra' are used in concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as are used in Job 2:10. Job says God is the source of both, although the evil came directly from Satan in that he brought the harm upon Job. Job nevertheless states correctly that the ultimate reason evil came is by the will of God or what we call the permissive will of God.
    Why do men call this the permissive will of God. For some reason, everytime I see this it stands the hairs of my neck up. Can anyone please show me where scripture even hints of a permissive will in scripture? This is no reflection on you debtor2 but this is a runaway and out of control explanation in the reformed church today. When God is even near evil it is dealt with this phrase, "Oh this is God's permissive will". God permited Adam to sin. What is this!!!
    The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." ÖJohn Gill

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    Re: God and Evil 3

    Debtor2:

    The forum staff here does not accept the notion of a "permissive" will of God; i.e., we do not believe that God merely PERMITS anything.

    The Will or God as set forth in His decrees includes what He Does, what He causes others to do or what He permits or allows others to do.

    It is the third of these that many of us would deny--the notion that God merely PERMITS or ALLOWS anything. If this is the case then the first cause of such events lies outside of God. Proceeding further, if the first cause of any event lies outside of God's creative action, then such a cause ORIGINATES within the creature without any purposeful cause and action on the part of God.

    We do not accept paradoxical theology on ANYTHING here! Whatever occurs in all of history happens due to God's direct and purposeful election and HE is the FIRST and ULTIMATE cause of everything that happens in the universe!
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: God and Evil 3

    Yes, it seems like debtor may have tore down what he has built up, sometimes folks don`t explain themselves accurately in this matter. It appears however that debtor acknowledges God ordains all things, sometimes when folk use permissive will it`s in the context of God ordaining everything, but if thats not his meaning, and he means that God permits something to happen but did not ordain it to happen, then thats totally error...
    There is no such thing as preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what...is called Calvinism...It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    charles spurgeon

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    Re: God and Evil 3

    Quote Originally Posted by jmgipson
    Why do men call this the permissive will of God. For some reason, everytime I see this it stands the hairs of my neck up. Can anyone please show me where scripture even hints of a permissive will in scripture? This is no reflection on you debtor2 but this is a runaway and out of control explanation in the reformed church today. When God is even near evil it is dealt with this phrase, "Oh this is God's permissive will". God permited Adam to sin. What is this!!!
    Well said John. Maybe Debtor2 can clarify for us his position on this specific subject.... he is well versed and like you alluded to..... would indeed like to give him the benefit of the doubt.
    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

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    Re: God and Evil 3

    Dear Brothers and Sisters, thank you for your comments about the article God and Evil, there is no such as The Permissive Will of God. Often many yse the term in this way, but it is misleading. That God does permit actions I do not deny, this we will do, fi the Lord permit, but this is not the permissive will of God. I think the quote came from another brother, and when we use the term, we do not use it in the sense of the anti-absoluters. God has only one will, in that will He causes all things. Please note that when the evil angel asked if He could down and play lies in the mouth of King Ahab, God gave him leave to goa nd so this. That is the way many of us use the term.

    I apologize leaving the wrong impression, there is only One will in God, All things work according to His prupose. I also detest the idea that God has many wills and that He merely permits evil and other things. That He gives leave to evil workers do evil, is one thing, but this does not mean He has several wills. I hope this helps, Debtor. 2

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    Debtor on God and Evil 3

    [QUOTE=beloved57]Yes, it seems like debtor may have tore down what he has built up, sometimes folks don`t explain themselves accurately in this matter. It appears however that debtor acknowledges God ordains all things, sometimes when folk use permissive will it`s in the context of God ordaining everything,

    Debtor 2 says: certainly this is the truth, as stated above, God does ordain all things, and what He permits us to do is a part of His ordaning all things. There is nothing that happens but what He has ordained to happen, including evil. Those who use permissive in any other way, cannot justify it from the Sacred Scriptures.

    Plese note that I quoted from another Dear Brother, and I know His position, He does not mean that God has several wills or that anything comes to pass that God has not ordained. Often men use terms without giving the terms a total and complete understanding. Thank you for your comments. May the Lord bless us as we study together, Ron.

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    Re: God and Evil 3

    Thanks for the clarification Ron we are very much in agreement! Also, thank you very much for your contributions.


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    Re: God and Evil 3

    Beloved 57, dear brother, your summation is my position, I could not have put it better, thank you.. Ron.

    excellent...These point out in a thought out and biblical way how God is the absolute First cause of everything, and that includes as secondary causes the wickedness and sinfulness of men and devils...
    __________________

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    Re: God and Evil 3

    Dear Brother JMGipson, thank you dear brother for your comments. Yes, I do agree that this is a run away term, and implies that God has several wills. This I deny. Thank you for your comments, Debtor2.

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    Re: God and Evil 3

    Dear Brother Robert, thank you for your post and reply. With what you have said I agree fully. I think that many hereon have mis-understood what I said, and this is due to my weakness, not theirs.

    For many years many of us have struggled with the right terms to express what we do believe. Perhaps you can help...

    The lying spirit said unto the Lord Jesus Christ,...I will do down and be a lying spirit unto them,,,or words to that effect, and the Lord said go,

    Now in your opinion what terms should we use to describe this the Lord's giving the lying spirit leave to go?

    You said, It is the third of these that many of us would deny--the notion that God merely PERMITS or ALLOWS anything. If this is the case then the first cause of such events lies outside of God. Proceeding further, if the first cause of any event lies outside of God's creative action, then such a cause ORIGINATES within the creature without any purposeful cause and action on the part of God.

    We do not accept paradoxical theology on ANYTHING here! Whatever occurs in all of history happens due to God's direct and purposeful election and HE is the FIRST and ULTIMATE cause of everything that happens in the universe!

    I do not deny this. I think some have reacted to what they thought was being said rather than to what I did say. That is my weakness, sorry for such weakness, many the Lord bless us as we study together, Ron.

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    Re: God and Evil 3

    Quote Originally Posted by debtor2
    Beloved 57, dear brother, your summation is my position, I could not have put it better, thank you.. Ron.

    excellent...These point out in a thought out and biblical way how God is the absolute First cause of everything, and that includes as secondary causes the wickedness and sinfulness of men and devils...
    __________________

    You are welcome, and you are a blessing
    There is no such thing as preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what...is called Calvinism...It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    charles spurgeon

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    Re: God and Evil 3

    Dear Brother Michael, thank you dear brother for your reply and your gracious remarks, may the Lord bless you dear brother, Ron.

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