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Thread: Women in Ministry

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    Women in Ministry

    The other day the subject in my Bible study group (in that good ol' Arminian Charismatic church I go to) was, among other things, women in ministry. The "leader" of the group made a pretty good case in favor of the whole thing. Although I haven't actively tried to resolve the issue in my heart, I can't say that what I've found is conclusive of either position.

    What do YOU think? Don't forget your Bible quotes, of course...
    For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me. (Ps. 40:12)

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    Re: Women in Ministry

    1Ti 2:11-12 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. (12) But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

    Seems fairly obvious to me.

    Both my wife and my mother have commented often about how they would never consider sitting under a woman teacher, so it's not just a man thing. Any Spirit led woman should have the same attitude, in my opinion. A submissive spirit is a glory to God, just look at the Lord Jesus Christ as an example!
    Gal 6:14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Re: Women in Ministry

    Read this, I think from ancient times the principles laid down here have bearing........Numbers 30. And this bears some relevance on 1 Cor. 14:34-38

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    Re: Women in Ministry

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Daw
    The other day the subject in my Bible study group (in that good ol' Arminian Charismatic church I go to) was, among other things, women in ministry. The "leader" of the group made a pretty good case in favor of the whole thing. Although I haven't actively tried to resolve the issue in my heart, I can't say that what I've found is conclusive of either position.

    What do YOU think? Don't forget your Bible quotes, of course...
    You can read about this here:

    http://www.predestinarian.net/showthread.php?t=1581

    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

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    Re: Women in Ministry

    Jack- heed my brothers exhortations, but more importantly God's Word. And one of last (maybe THE LAST) places God would want a professing Christian to be in, is @ an Arminian church! In love I can say that the only attribute of God that is in an Arminian church is His wrath...........KK

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    Re: Women in Ministry

    Paul is pretty clear and plain in what he teaches. He does not trace the forbidding of teaching to some cultural practice but back to the creation ordinance. If we are going to explain that away there is absolutely nothing in the Bible which cannot be explained away including homosexuality. Andreas Kostenberger has an excellent book called Women in the Church which provides a thorough examination of the passages involved. We must let the Bible speak to us and not try to make the Bible say what we want it to say. The Bible teaches complimentarianism, not egalitarianism. God has given people different roles because he has made people differently. No matter how much society wants to deny this it is foolish to try to do so.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Women in Ministry

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar
    Paul is pretty clear and plain in what he teaches. He does not trace the forbidding of teaching to some cultural practice but back to the creation ordinance. If we are going to explain that away there is absolutely nothing in the Bible which cannot be explained away including homosexuality. Andreas Kostenberger has an excellent book called Women in the Church which provides a thorough examination of the passages involved. We must let the Bible speak to us and not try to make the Bible say what we want it to say. The Bible teaches complimentarianism, not egalitarianism. God has given people different roles because he has made people differently. No matter how much society wants to deny this it is foolish to try to do so.
    Amen Charles, scripture couldn't be more clear on this issue.


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    Re: Women in Ministry

    I had a brief struggle with this issue recently, and probably will again in future seeing as how the world thinks these days...

    It seems that the idea is freedom and liberty in the U.S. is being confused with the freedoms and liberties in Christ...

    The argument that this girl (17 years old) had was that God created all men and women equal and that women can have a calling by God to minister/preach the gospel just as much as men, and therefore should be allowed to be ordained. She insisted that I take a position but I didn't know what to think. After reading the verses it is clear what God's will is, but even looking at the obvious nature of our humanity, Women seem to be more purposed for the work of being child-rearers among other duties to keep the household together. Some women may view this as a way for men to get them to "shutup and go to the kitchen" It shouldn't be this way, I think that a woman should take great pleasure in serving and the man should be absolutely respectful in return of her service, as well as fullfilling his service to her and his family. I don't think that this is any kind of demeaning role though, as some women have come to view it. Our physical characteristics and even our inward characteristics kind of point out the obvious. I wouldn't say that women aren't meant for things other than raising the family, or that men aren't responsible for the family either.
    Im not sure what else to think, Im not being chauvonistic am I? Overall, God will spiritually ordain as He pleases and thats what truly matters.

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    Re: Women in Ministry

    It maybe that women in subjection to their husbands may play a role in the ministry of the gospel...judging from acts 18 : 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.

    This of course was in a home setting and not public worship however women can share the gospel. This is no credence however for women holding a office of a bishop or pastoring the flock of God...
    There is no such thing as preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what...is called Calvinism...It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    charles spurgeon

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    Re: Women in Ministry

    The responsibility of the husband is an awesome one and should not be viewed as just being the guy in charge. He must love his wife as Christ loved the church and lay down his life for her, quite an awesome task. On the other hand, women are given an awesome responsibility as well--being godly and submissive wives and under normal circumstances to bear children. Putting a woman in the position of pastor is just as absurd as telling a man to bear children. The greater blame resides upon the men in the church who are lazy to fulfill their calling and want women to take care of everything for them. Once this does happen, usually the men end up leaving the church and it becomes a church full of women and children. Douglas and Nancy Wilson have some excellent books on the responsibilities of men and women in marriage. One of the most convicting books I've read is The Federal Husband. Douglas Wilson shows how the husband is responsible for all the sins and spiritual well-being of the family.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Women in Ministry

    Having a wife that is a true believer is a great blessing from the Lord Whoso] findeth a wife findeth a good [thing], and obtaineth favour of the LORD. prov 18:22

    prov 19 :14
    House and riches [are] the inheritance of fathers: and a prudent wife [is] from the LORD.

    prov 31 : 30 Favour [is] deceitful, and beauty [is] vain: [but] a woman [that] feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.

    A wife who fears the Lord will believe in the sovereignty of God. This is a anidote when the flesh rises within this relationship, because when all is said and done , The couple understands that God is actively involved in every circumstance and yeah even ordained them..

    Don`t mean to go off on a tangent but I`m thankful for a Christain wife...
    There is no such thing as preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what...is called Calvinism...It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    charles spurgeon

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    Re: Women in Ministry

    Darryl what a "tangent" to get "off-post" on! I think it's OK to do until someone complains Psalm 128:3- "Thy wife shall be as a fruitful vine by the sides of thy house". Ye men with believing wives: may we always praise God for them! Sounds like a good thread! But I owe I owe, so off to church I must go: I owe Him praise for a local gospel assemby And I owe praise to God for my wife of 30 years Evelyn!........praise God for believing spouses!......KK

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    Re: Women in Ministry

    As significant as this issue might seem, I have a reason for not focusing on it.

    The real issue is whether the NT assembly still exists today. If not, then the rules governing it are superfluous. So before we talk about women in pastoral ministry, we need to agree that the NT assembly is still alive and well in our generation! I do not believe that it is and therefore cannot say much on this subject. As far as the NT assembly itself was concerned; YES--women were not to be ordained pastors.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Women in Ministry

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby
    As significant as this issue might seem, I have a reason for not focusing on it.

    The real issue is whether the NT assembly still exists today. If not, then the rules governing it are superfluous. So before we talk about women in pastoral ministry, we need to agree that the NT assembly is still alive and well in our generation! I do not believe that it is and therefore cannot say much on this subject. As far as the NT assembly itself was concerned; YES--women were not to be ordained pastors.
    What are you saying Bob?? Are you rejecting the idea that folks who gather together for worship...let's say within the PRC for example....are not like the examples of NT assemblies??
    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

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    Re: Women in Ministry

    The real issue is whether the NT assembly still exists today. If not, then the rules governing it are superfluous. So before we talk about women in pastoral ministry, we need to agree that the NT assembly is still alive and well in our generation! I do not believe that it is and therefore cannot say much on this subject. As far as the NT assembly itself was concerned; YES--women were not to be ordained pastors.
    Bob,

    I wonder if first of all you would be willing to give your thoughts as to why or what you see as to how the NT assembly doesn't exist in any form today, specifically. Only if you are so inclined and have the time.

    As a woman I have a disagreement with you here because I read the scripture and it tells me that I cannot teach men in an 'assembly' (church) and I believe that and submit to that most willingly. I do believe that much damage has been done to women in churches because of misunderstandings and abuse as to women's role in general, I have experienced that first hand and it has taken me years to come to the place I am now, by the Lord's good pleasure.

    Eileen~
    "To those who have no works-phobia, I will state that you are not trembling before the gospel" Robert R. Higby

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    Re: Women in Ministry

    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen
    Bob,

    I wonder if first of all you would be willing to give your thoughts as to why or what you see as to how the NT assembly doesn't exist in any form today, specifically. Only if you are so inclined and have the time.
    Eileen, there is no longer anyone who can claim today apostolic authority and in general (that eliminates the spefics) congreagations do not function as the NT assembly in government and function. The only people who tried to restore Apostolic authority and ecclesiology ruined the whole thing so bad and now is called the Roman Catholic Church...

    Not only women are prevented from leadership today; most men that are in the ministry, some I know and some I am still to know, certainly do not fit the bid for being in leadership and they are. Congregations "elect" only PhD's to be their pastors (Pizza Hut Delivery for me), who have a lot of degrees but no temperature, and although they are trained to teach, they are unfit to be teachers.

    Although I accept the fact that there is no dichotomy in the Bible in "intellect and heart", there is a very distinct one delineated by Paul in 1 Cor 13 about "ability to do things" and "doing things with love". Some congregation leaders I know have the former but lack on the latter, and in fact, despise the latter as being too "corny"...

    For this and for a few other reasons, in my humble opinion, it is hard to find a congregation that functions completely as the N.T. Ek-klesia. If a product is bad, correcting the process will not necessarily make it into a better product. We need the real thing again...

    I am sure Bob can speak for himself, but this is my humble opinion on the matter.

    Milt
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    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
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    Re: Women in Ministry

    For me, the NT assembly will never exist again. Paul certainly appointed elders in each assembly that he was involved in founding or visiting (Acts 14:23); they were all males--I believe this was the norm for the apostolic age. The elders were to be the stewards of the apostolic teaching and were DIRECTLY taught by the apostles. Other men not directly taught by Paul or other apostles could be ordained in the NT age--if they were taught by one who Paul or one of the apostles taught.

    The elders in the NT age were the stewards of all aspects of the apostolic gospel and their entire message. For anyone to claim such a position today, in light of the fact that there are thousands of sects all claiming the truth of the New Testament (but all disagreeing), is the height of arrogance. God has ordained no elders in this age after the apostolic pattern. The EKKLESIA remains and will remain until the end. But the EKKLESIA is the universal body of Christ manifested on Earth by as few as 2 or 3 gathered in Christ's name (which might be all men OR women!). We can seek to imitate the NT assembly and should, however, it is IMPOSSIBLE to ever be confident that we have fully arrived in recovering it. The great apostasy prophesied by Paul forever destroyed the complete visible reality of it.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Women in Ministry

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby
    As significant as this issue might seem, I have a reason for not focusing on it.

    The real issue is whether the NT assembly still exists today. If not, then the rules governing it are superfluous. So before we talk about women in pastoral ministry, we need to agree that the NT assembly is still alive and well in our generation! I do not believe that it is and therefore cannot say much on this subject. As far as the NT assembly itself was concerned; YES--women were not to be ordained pastors.
    Interesting, Bill believe it or not, I tend to believe your point of view on this issue, I hope you elaborate or recommend a former thead...
    There is no such thing as preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what...is called Calvinism...It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    charles spurgeon

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    Re: Women in Ministry

    Bob, I am disheartened and surprised to hear you say these things.

    If you have never been to a NT assembly, please come to Houston one Sunday and participate with our assembly in worshiping God. A perfect local assembly has never existed, even in the days of the Apostles, and to expect as much is going too far.

    Please list the requirements you hold over a local assembly to have the label of "NT assembly".
    Gal 6:14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Re: Women in Ministry

    We need the real thing again...
    Milt, I would agree that we desire the real thing again, very much so, but don't we profess and believe that the Lord Himself is Sovereign over all things and that includes the 'assembly' as we know it today, in all it's apostasy?

    We can seek to imitate the NT assembly and should, however, it is IMPOSSIBLE to ever be confident that we have fully arrived in recovering it. The great apostasy prophesied by Paul forever destroyed the complete visible reality of it.
    Bob, I read the NT and see that I am called to assemble, visibly and I read the NT and see how I am to interact with the body and so I believe that there are many of us who go to church for exactly what you are advocating above, to imitate what we read and come to understand in the scripture about the NT assembly. There were problems in the NT assembly from the very beginning and it seems that there will always be problems, unless the Lord changes the visible today. It can be a messy work sometimes. What confuses me I guess is what I said to Milt as well, isn't the Lord Sovereign over even this? Do I dare ignore what the scripture teaches me as a woman because the assembly isn't what we deisre it to be? If 3 women were gathered together, I do believe the Lord would be in the midst, but without a pastor.

    Eileen~
    "To those who have no works-phobia, I will state that you are not trembling before the gospel" Robert R. Higby

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